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Author Topic: Joe Thomas  (Read 14129 times)
hypehat
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« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2009, 02:49:29 AM »

Brian doesn't really like confrontation, historically speaking, so i guess he'd rather let Joe do his thang than possibly have another producer problem.

Yeah, and I struggle(d) with that, because we're talking about his art, and we all know there was a time when Brian would resort to confrontation FOR his art, because it was important to him.

I suppose confronting the BB's, after a while, got to be impossible - you can't be constantly feuding with family, after all.

hypehat, I'm not directing this question directly to you, but your above quote awakened a pet peeve of mine. When Brian went solo, so many times I read about Brian's confrontations with The Beach Boys, and specifically Mike Love. My question is this: There is no doubt that Brian had to confront the group during the SMiLE sessions, and, I assume from reading that somebody (Mike?) objected to the tone/lyrics of "Til I Die" (though I don't know it to be fact). Other than SMiLE (43 years ago) and maybe "Til I Die" (a single song), when did Brian have confrontations with The Beach Boys over his music? And don't say 15 Big Ones and/or Love You, because, while portions of the group were not entirely happy with Brian's work on those albums, he was NOT confronted about them. Brian came in and quickly did his work and left. With 15 Big Ones specifically, any "problems" the group had with that work was not told to Brian's face in a confrontational manner. Maybe after the fact with the press, but not to Brian. My point is, Brian OVERWHELMINGLY had his way WITH THE BEACH BOYS. When he has chosen to work with them, he did HIS thing. They were, still are, and always will be afraid to confront him - musically.

Your point's right - I worded it a little one-sided, i guess. I wasn't pointing out the confrontations that did happen - more stuff that didn't happen. Brian, being musical don of the group up until 67, couldn't have relished the lack of control, relatively speaking, that occured after that. Brian didn't confront the band because they're his family, which is what i said. It's harder to bust up with family, which i believe is what would have happened had he forced his creative hand again after Smile and not let the rest of the band contribute. If it was Brian and four other guys, he might have been more forceful and could have even kicked them out, but he certainly feels a different set of obligations to his two brothers and cousin.
He forced Pet Sounds and Smile (for a time) on them, despite their objections, but someone as sensitive as Brian can't really keep up that affront. Especially when the results aren't half bad.
And i didn't specifically say Mike, anyway.  The band also intially balked at Mt. Vernon, and at the Adult/Child stuff, but these are admittedly somewhat minor.
I think Warner's-wise, the label were wanting 'Brian' songs, so Mike, if indeed he did object (we might be assuming a little too hastily here) had to yield sooner rather than later.
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« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2009, 10:17:29 AM »

AGD: They're similar, but not identical to my ears. Plus, the Foskett version includes the "Sandy She Needs Me" riff added to the bridge and outro -- the 96 BW track definitely does not.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 10:21:35 AM by claymcc » Logged
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« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2009, 12:13:28 PM »

I'm not sure Sheriff, but here is Bruce's quote which can be found on page 144 in David Leaf's book: "I remember Brian playing it for the band and one member of the band didn't understand it and put it down, and Brian just decided not to show it to us for a few months. He just put it away. I mean, he was absolutely crushed. This other person just didn't like it, but Brian cut it anyway."

Till I Die was worked very soon after Sunflower was completed. I don't think Bruce's lying, but maybe Brian was just taking his time, aware that it would be some months before another album would be released. He knew that in the end Warner would ask them where the 'Brian Wilson tracks' were.

We sometimes make a big deal about Brian's and Dennis' songs being rejected, but do we stop and wonder if any of the other 'untalented ones' were too, if it "crushed their feelings" or something wussy like that? I've heard a (probably) apocriphical story about Mike presenting Viggie to the group in the early 70s and Carl laughing it off.

Sounds entirely likely - Viggie (= Virginia) was Mike's English girlfriend in the early 70s, so I can easily believe it was written back then. Lovely little tune.
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« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2009, 05:11:35 PM »

Viggie is a nice one and like I said before you are going to have dissension in bands. I mean they recorded regularly for 20 years so there were a lot of songs that probably didn't go over with the other members no matter who wrote it.
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« Reply #79 on: August 15, 2009, 06:38:26 AM »

No sessions took place with O'Hagan, that's for sure.

What exactly was the deal with that, anyway? From what I've gathered, Brian wasn't too crazy about him personally, but have not gotten any more detail.
Based on the sh*t that O'Hagan talked about Brian after they met, I can't blame Brian for not warming to him. He sounds like a weasel. His music is alright, but very derivative of the Beach Boys, or at least the "Hawaii" album is.
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« Reply #80 on: August 15, 2009, 07:05:15 AM »

[O'Hagan's] music is alright, but very derivative of the Beach Boys, or at least the "Hawaii" album is.

I can't and won't speculate on the guy's weaselness (great word, if I do say so myself), but yes, his music has certainly been a pretty clear homage to Beach Boys, Bacharach and a few other artists. It's not just Hawaii, Gideon Gaye is as much or more along those lines. Regardless of why the Beach Boys or Brian didn't work with him, I'm glad it didn't happen in that it would just be working with a worshipper or imitator. He's good at re-creating those sounds, but if you're among the originators of those sounds, do you want to hire your own imitator to get you there?

And before it is said, I don't think that the Wondermints crew fits into that same category. While they can imitate the Beach Boys sound, their original music is far more inspired by than derivative of, to my ears.
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« Reply #81 on: August 15, 2009, 10:20:19 AM »

[O'Hagan's] music is alright, but very derivative of the Beach Boys, or at least the "Hawaii" album is.

I can't and won't speculate on the guy's weaselness (great word, if I do say so myself), but yes, his music has certainly been a pretty clear homage to Beach Boys, Bacharach and a few other artists. It's not just Hawaii, Gideon Gaye is as much or more along those lines. Regardless of why the Beach Boys or Brian didn't work with him, I'm glad it didn't happen in that it would just be working with a worshipper or imitator. He's good at re-creating those sounds, but if you're among the originators of those sounds, do you want to hire your own imitator to get you there?

And before it is said, I don't think that the Wondermints crew fits into that same category. While they can imitate the Beach Boys sound, their original music is far more inspired by than derivative of, to my ears.

I enjoyed "Hawaii," but it was a bit twee for my tastes, and it seemed like a pale photocopy of Brian's production ingenuity and songwriting inventiveness. I am a big fan of Stereolab and the work O'Hagan does with them is excellent. I don't doubt O'Hagan's story, but I think that his coming out publicly and saying all of these things reflected poorly on him.

I agree with you about the Wondermints: they are Beach Boys-inspired, but they have their own style. They are also much more soulful than the High Llamas, so it's a great thing that Brian ended up working with them rather than O'Hagan, and their collaboration has obviously proved to have some longevity.

Coincidentally, this morning, a car parked outside my house was blasting the rough mix of "Your Imagination," with Brian humming a rough verse melody - I don't know if this is the version of the track that people were talking about earlier in the thread, before Brian lost his enthusiasm, but I can tell you that the chorus vocals are all intact and the hummed verse melody is somewhat different from the released version (and obviously incomplete.) Is this the mix of the song from before Joe Thomas took over? It sounds much more Brian-esque in its arrangement, and the electric guitars are much more prominent. It also sounds like there is a totally different drum track. FInally, the ending harmony sounds different from the released version, and somewhat dissonant.

I also heard (on the radio in Luxembourg a few weeks ago) the early, incomplete mix of "Everything I Need." It is an excellent song in all its incarnations, in spite of its shortcomings, but this version kind of upset me as it sounded much different and more BRIAN than the released Wilsons version. The Foskett version is probably the best of the three, but had this one been completed, it would have been a great addition.

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« Reply #82 on: December 05, 2011, 05:29:19 AM »

See, though, it wasn't contemporary when it came out. It's like...say I released an album tommorrow, claiming to have the hot new sounds...and it's a disco record.

Put it like this...it was the Adult Contemporary sound...of 1991.

This is the post of 2009! Couldn't agree more. It has the sound of this cheap trick song(can't stop falling in love) that was a hit in 1990:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyIivJoETk
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« Reply #83 on: December 05, 2011, 11:25:55 AM »

Didn't Brian have a two record deal with Giant. What happened to that, did it just fall away after he and Joe parted ways? I would have thought he'd have to buy his way out of it? For me the first two songs on Imagination are good, although the sterility of the sound means they are a guilty pleasure. Does anyone play this album when they have visitors around? The rest of it just doesn't do it for me at all. I love the Paley sessions, man they really screwed up putting Imagination out instead.  I wonder if the Paley stuff will ever get an official release.
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« Reply #84 on: December 05, 2011, 03:00:07 PM »

For me, it's the second half of the album that is better. From 'Dream Angel' onwards I don't cringe as much.
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« Reply #85 on: December 05, 2011, 05:25:58 PM »

Honestly, Imaginations is my least favorite BW album mainly because of the production. GIOMH is about the same but the productions is much better, perhaps working with his current band helps! However, TLOS is his very best IMO. BWPS is also great, but at this point, I prefer the original. Smiley
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« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2012, 01:07:23 AM »

I just noticed something! The distorted guitars in Your imagination sounds a little bit like guitars in This whole world. There's probably something about it that BW loves even though it sounds horrible on YI.

Maybe we have to blame BW after all. All along I figured Joe Thomas was behind it.

(adore the break at 2:20)
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« Reply #87 on: January 09, 2012, 09:37:35 AM »

Didn't Brian have a two record deal with Giant. What happened to that, did it just fall away after he and Joe parted ways? I would have thought he'd have to buy his way out of it? For me the first two songs on Imagination are good, although the sterility of the sound means they are a guilty pleasure. Does anyone play this album when they have visitors around? The rest of it just doesn't do it for me at all. I love the Paley sessions, man they really screwed up putting Imagination out instead.  I wonder if the Paley stuff will ever get an official release.

I think Giant folded.
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