Joe Thomas

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

For those who dislike Joe's arrangements, could you list the specific songs and specific arrangements that you dislike. I'm aware that the album does sound clearer, crisper, nylon-ish, whatever, but I don't find it overly-objectionable. I just accepted it as being contemporary, no more so than any other Brian solo album. I mean, what is Brian's solo sound? Does he have one? Specifically, what turns you off?

The middle section of "Your Imagination" and "She Says that She Needs Me" cause my bowels to lock every time I hear them. Hell to the yeah concerning the guitar on "Lay Down Burden". But what really brings my piss to a boil is the godawful mix. The drums specifically sound like someone taking a dead cat and swinging it against a cardboard box. The strings in "Keep an Eye on Summer" are annoying. The songs themselves for the most part sound like the folks behind American Idol decided to try to sound like Brian. I also don't like the stack of Brians...it's annoying and overdone.

Now, from "Cry" on, I like all of the songs. But before then, I honestly prefer GIOMH.

And that's a damn shame.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'll never win the argument but I thought Joe Thomas did a good job with Brian - and The Beach Boys.

I think Brian's vocals on Imagination are the best he's done in his solo career. I thought it was the material, basically the lower 4-5 songs, that doomed the album. I also thought Stars And Stripes was a well-produced album; those harmonies are damn good. I agree with Dada that Joe Thomas' s arrangements weren't that bad, and, if they were, who should've been the one to override them or "correct" them? How about Brian? But he never seems to be held accountable for that; we "blame" Joe Thomas instead, for the lack of success of BRIAN WILSON'S SOLO ALBUM.

For what it's worth, I also think "Joy To The World" is the best track on the Christmas album, and Joe produced that.....

See, for me, it's the last 4-5 songs that save the album for me. I really don't care for the 1st part of it at all.

Just to clarify, Billy, I wasn't referring to the "lower 4-5 songs" sequentially on the album, but rather my least favorite 4-5 songs. I know it's subjective, but when I make a comp of Brian's solo stuff, I always seem to pick more songs off of Imagination than the other albums. There is a very strong nucleus of songs on Imagination - the title track, "South American", Cry", "Lay Down Burden", and maybe "She Says That She Needs Me". I also think that "Dream Angel" is an underrated song, well produced, including a great Brian lead vocal, maybe one of my favorites on the album.

As I mentioned in my original post, I'll never win the Joe Thomas/Imagination debate, and I'm not really passionate enough about the issue to try, so I'll ask this question more out of curiosity....For those who dislike Joe's arrangements, could you list the specific songs and specific arrangements that you dislike. I'm aware that the album does sound clearer, crisper, nylon-ish, whatever, but I don't find it overly-objectionable. I just accepted it as being contemporary, no more so than any other Brian solo album. I mean, what is Brian's solo sound? Does he have one? Specifically, what turns you off?

I haven't listened to the album in awhile, but just off the top of my head:

--  The spanish guitar on "Lay Down Burden" (this is probably the worst offender for me)

--  The oboe (it may be a clarinet) on "She Says That She Needs Me"

--  The sax at the end of "Happy Days" (in fact, the whole second half of that song is incredibly bland)

--  The nylon guitar on "Cry" (this one really doesn't bother me that much, but it's still very "un-Brian")

--  The whole arrangement of "Let Him Run Wild" is nowhere near as cool as the original...it's not one particular instrument or other arrangement choice, it's the whole "feel" of the arrangement

--  The fact that "Imagination," "South American" and "Dream Angel" all sound like the same damn song (instrumentally, at least)

Like I said, overall I just don't feel that Imagination sounds like a Brian Wilson record.  Brian's arrangements never sounded cheesy and slick.  It's really a shame too, because I do like a lot of the songs on the album.

It's funny, Chris, but I agree with every example you gave. However, they don't bother me - and I don't know why. Actually, I never realized that Joe Thomas and his arrangements were looked down upon so much until threads on this board. I guess I just accepted the "feel"; it was/is contemporary and I thought Brian needed that, something new maybe. If Imagination went "back" too much, it would've been criticized as a Beach Boys' carbon copy (there were already two covers and a couple of re-writes on there already).

After reading all of this critcism, it really makes me wonder how the album got through/released without more objection....

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

See, though, it wasn't contemporary when it came out. It's like...say I released an album tommorrow, claiming to have the hot new sounds...and it's a disco record.

Put it like this...it was the Adult Contemporary sound...of 1991.

[Alex]

See, though, it wasn't contemporary when it came out. It's like...say I released an album tommorrow, claiming to have the hot new sounds...and it's a disco record.

Put it like this...it was the Adult Contemporary sound...of 1991.

And that type of sound is also all over Beckley-Lamm-Wilson's Like a Brother. The MOR sound is why I like I Wish For You but not LOVE it. Same goes for Imagination.

[hypehat]

It's so bland, whereas Wilson's arrangements, traditionally speaking, are anything but. It kind of meshes into one echoey thing. There's nothing happening in the chorus of Imaginations 'LHRW', for instance - just things following the chords, but the normal version has everything playing some melody or bassline, or something. And that infernal nylon guitar reminds me of the saxophone in bad 80's cop movies 

I for one, like the clarinets on She says... Just a shame they were tacked onto the beginning and not more effectively utilised.
I don't know how others feel about this, but it's also an immense letdown considering what we've heard of the Paley sessions, which would have been close to a perfect comeback, in production terms.

[Dove Nested Towers]

I personally love both Imagination and Orange Crate Art. I feel they are an escape from the norm of what I've known as Brian's music. Did that make sense???

Off topic, I really like the version of OCA on VDP's "Moonlighting: Live at the Ash Grove" album.
Sorry for the digression, hope it will be worth it to someone out there...

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

See, though, it wasn't contemporary when it came out. It's like...say I released an album tommorrow, claiming to have the hot new sounds...and it's a disco record.

Put it like this...it was the Adult Contemporary sound...of 1991.

And that type of sound is also all over Beckley-Lamm-Wilson's Like a Brother. The MOR sound is why I like I Wish For You but not LOVE it. Same goes for Imagination.

Good catch, but 2 things about that. 1) The album was mainly recorded in the early 90s, so that's a bit more excusable

and

2). It *still* sounds fresher and more substantial compared to the plastic sound of Imagination.

Plastic? Yeah, that's the best way to describe its antiseptic sound. Call it the "Plastic Oh HELL No Band".








Yes, that was a terrible pun. So sue me.

[b00ts]

For those who dislike Joe's arrangements, could you list the specific songs and specific arrangements that you dislike. I'm aware that the album does sound clearer, crisper, nylon-ish, whatever, but I don't find it overly-objectionable. I just accepted it as being contemporary, no more so than any other Brian solo album. I mean, what is Brian's solo sound? Does he have one? Specifically, what turns you off?

As I stated at the beginning of this post, just compare the title track of "Gettin' In Over My Head" to the version from the Paley sessions.

b00ts

P.S. I know what you're going to say - "the Paley sessions version isn't that great" or some such thing?

[b00ts]

I will tell you the single worst (or most inappropriate) moment on Imagination: on the song "Happy Days," there is a what sounds like a Fender Rhodes piano which is treated to hell with some sort of chorus effect, or perhaps 3 different chorus effects. During the second bridge of the song, the cheesy Fender Rhodes does a fill that qualifies as the last appropriate musical arrangement on the album.

At 1:16, Brian sings "Oh, God, the pain" and the Fender Rhodes does this slick little "answer" riff that sounds almost like it was put there to ameliorate the sentiment of that lyric. It is sort of like watching someone confess to all of their deepest insecurities and fears, and then being hit in the face with a key lime pie.

The 4-note riff is hoary and cheesy in this context, and it serves to underscore what was wrong with the mismatched collaboration that was Wilson/Thomas.
 
A close runner-up is the saxophone in the dissonant verses. "Let's make this a little more palatable for the people, shall we?" Sheriff John Stone, you can also check out the difference between the original Sherry, She Needs Me and the version on Imagination, which is, for my money, one of the album's best songs both in arrangement and performance. Still, it is easy to tell the difference between a Brian Wilson arrangement and a Joe Thomas arrangement.

b00ts

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

For those who dislike Joe's arrangements, could you list the specific songs and specific arrangements that you dislike. I'm aware that the album does sound clearer, crisper, nylon-ish, whatever, but I don't find it overly-objectionable. I just accepted it as being contemporary, no more so than any other Brian solo album. I mean, what is Brian's solo sound? Does he have one? Specifically, what turns you off?

As I stated at the beginning of this post, just compare the title track of "Gettin' In Over My Head" to the version from the Paley sessions.

b00ts

P.S. I know what you're going to say - "the Paley sessions version isn't that great" or some such thing?

sh*t, the Paley version IMHO is in the top 5 off all Brian solo recordings.  What is crazy to me is that auto-tune was not used in that version (but was in the Thomas version), yet the Paley cut has better vocals.

I will tell you the single worst (or most inappropriate) moment on Imagination: on the song "Happy Days," there is a what sounds like a Fender Rhodes piano which is treated to hell with some sort of chorus effect, or perhaps 3 different chorus effects. During the second bridge of the song, the cheesy Fender Rhodes does a fill that qualifies as the last appropriate musical arrangement on the album.

At 1:16, Brian sings "Oh, God, the pain" and the Fender Rhodes does this slick little "answer" riff that sounds almost like it was put there to ameliorate the sentiment of that lyric. It is sort of like watching someone confess to all of their deepest insecurities and fears, and then being hit in the face with a key lime pie.

The 4-note riff is hoary and cheesy in this context, and it serves to underscore what was wrong with the mismatched collaboration that was Wilson/Thomas.

I actually kinda like that. Really, I like the keyboards on that cut. I don't know if it's actually Brian playing or not (there are several inaccuracies in the album credits anyway so who the hell knows) but it sounds like his playing, and the chord structure sure does. To me, "Happy Days" is to Imagination what "Male Ego" is to BB85...the most Brian moment on the disc, even if it was someone else producing.

[MBE]

I think for me it's the dull a/c lyrics that ruin it. She Says That She Needs Me and Happy Days lost all their original quirkiness. Very bland sound all throughout the album. I hate the remakes which are pure filler, South American has that Kokomo sound but may be even worse. The vocals are ok for later Brian, the title cut works for me, I feel Melinda's or Joe Thomas' ideas in here. Meaning that their goal was to make Brian into a safe artist without any real humor or oddity.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Meaning that their goal was to make Brian into a safe artist without any real humor or oddity.

Actually I think that was the plan. Pissed me the f*** off, that's for sure.

[SG7]

One of my top favorite BW solo records is Imagination. It was one of the first BW solo albums I had (right next to BW88)

[punkinhead]

The re-do of Keep and Eye on Summer sounds like an outtake from Nashville Sounds

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

You know what? Let me listen to it again... haven't listened to it in a few years, so maybe my opinion has changed.My initial reaction was liking it except for the 1st 2 tracks, but the more I heard it the less I liked it.

[b00ts]

You know what? Let me listen to it again... haven't listened to it in a few years, so maybe my opinion has changed.My initial reaction was liking it except for the 1st 2 tracks, but the more I heard it the less I liked it.

It's a good album; it just lacks that Brian Wilson touch. I remember when it came out, the production was almost offensive to my ears, as the trend in popular music by that time had been away from such obviously digital sounding recordings.. of course, nowadays, the pendulum has swung back that way.

Someone commented upon the release of Imagination that a digital hum could be heard in the background of the album, specifically during silent points such as the beginnings of the songs. It's true, and I wonder why it is? I don't hear it on other albums from the era, and I'm sure Joe Thomas had a Pro Tools setup that was capable of decent sounding recordings.

P.S. - Billy, in 1995, Auto-Tune like the kind we have today didn't exist, or if it did, it was not as easy to use - one could program his voice into a Synclavier or similar and tune it that way, but it would sound obviously doctored.. much more obviously than it does even on today's ham-fisted productions.  I am not sure whether the Paley sessions were recorded to analog or digital tape, but either way, likely not to an HDD recorder or computer.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Yeah, I know when Auto-Tune was released...in 1997. When was Imagination recorded mainly? So yeah, much like the 85 album,  the hot "new" technology was overused to the point where it sounded tinny. Difference was, BB85 had great vocals, and nobody will argue with the fact that Carl's vocals were passionate-sounding. Imagination was indeed recorded in Pro-Tools, which is fine in and of itself. If you got somebody running the board who don't know what they're doing, though, you can end up with all sorts of problems. Hence, the crappy Fisher-Price  sounding guitars on a lot of tracks and the world's quietest drums. Just got through relistening to it, and there are 2 main issues... most of the songs are mediocre at best , and the mix is brittle-sounding.
"Lay Down Burden" is a key offender. Great song, great vocals...but man that guitar is weak.  You hear very little of the ring...I dunno how to  say this right and have this make sense... it's like someone was playing a guitar, and everything was recorded: the fingers moving across the fret, their watch accidently hitting the string...everything except the actual note. I mean, you actually do hear it, but it's quieter than the noise! It's as if it was a guitar sample on a cheap-ass keyboard was overdubbed with someone trying to make it sound as if they were playing the guitar. Now, obviously, that's not what happened, but it comes off that way.

True story...in 2000 I was in 3rd year of  college, majoring in audio engineering,  and we were going to mix in Pro Tools for the 1st time. We were played two albums recorded in Pro Tools. One was some rock album, don't know who it was (it wasn't my type of deal) , but it sounded good, albeit a bit too bright. Then we were played Imagination (which I was kinda shocked by) as an example of a bad digital recording.

Sigh. Good thing nobody knew I was a Brian Wilson mark, huh?

[Pablo.]

This part of  Sean O'Hagan's account of his aborted collaboration with Brian and the Beach Boys sums it up for me:

It was during this period that Brian was being coerced away from Andy Paley (by wife Melinda, according to observers), toward Joe Thomas, a former WBA wrestler, co-founder of the Adult Contemporary stronghold, River North Records, and producer of, as O'Hagan puts it, "real right-wing country artists." Wilson's lack of interest in the O'Hagan project manifested itself at dinner that night.

"I could already tell it was never going to happen," says O'Hagan. "The whole thing was absurd. As far as I can see, Joe Thomas hasn't got a clue about Brian Wilson or his legacy. It's all just 'Little Deuce Coupe' to him. He wanted Brian to make a big Eighties ballad record, all cavernous snares. He kept referring to Brian's potential as an Adult Contemporary crossover artist. I sad, 'Don't you realize Brian Wilson is essentially a 20th-century avant-garde pop genius?' And he went, 'Avant-garde? Not the Brian Wilson I know'

[Chris Brown]

This part of  Sean O'Hagan's account of his aborted collaboration with Brian and the Beach Boys sums it up for me:

It was during this period that Brian was being coerced away from Andy Paley (by wife Melinda, according to observers), toward Joe Thomas, a former WBA wrestler, co-founder of the Adult Contemporary stronghold, River North Records, and producer of, as O'Hagan puts it, "real right-wing country artists." Wilson's lack of interest in the O'Hagan project manifested itself at dinner that night.

"I could already tell it was never going to happen," says O'Hagan. "The whole thing was absurd. As far as I can see, Joe Thomas hasn't got a clue about Brian Wilson or his legacy. It's all just 'Little Deuce Coupe' to him. He wanted Brian to make a big Eighties ballad record, all cavernous snares. He kept referring to Brian's potential as an Adult Contemporary crossover artist. I sad, 'Don't you realize Brian Wilson is essentially a 20th-century avant-garde pop genius?' And he went, 'Avant-garde? Not the Brian Wilson I know'

That does sum it up quite well actually.  Thomas wanted Brian to sound like a different artist than he is/was.

[Wirestone]

But I also think it's fair to say that Brian in 1996-1997 was not in any way an avant garde artist.

I think Imagination made sense at the time. In retrospect (as with so many things BW-related), it looks different. We now know that Brian was capable of more. At the time, it was much less clear.

[Sheriff John Stone]

But I also think it's fair to say that Brian in 1996-1997 was not in any way an avant garde artist.

I think Imagination made sense at the time. In retrospect (as with so many things BW-related), it looks different. We now know that Brian was capable of more. At the time, it was much less clear.

Yes. Your post is very much how I feel. And, again, I'm not really arguing "for" Joe Thomas or his style, just stating my feelings....

At the time, Brian was not very creative in the avant garde sense. He was probably going through some shock as he was entering into his REAL solo career, whether he liked it or not. I would imagine there was a lot of "Yeah, OK...." eminating from him. New marriage, new house, new friends, new studios, new collaborators, new producers, new record company, new dogs, etc. So, I guess the adult contemporary route was the safest? I mean, in 1996 was Brian ready to explore something...deep?

claymcc, you stated that "We now know that Brian was capable of more." Since that time, we got Getting In Over My Head, What I Really Want For Christmas, and That Lucky Old Sun. This point I will argue. I'm not sure Brian was capable of more or delivered more since Imagination - in the way of songwriting.

- Imagination
- South American
- Cry
- Lay Down Burden
- Dream Angel (I'm not EXACTLY sure how much Brian wrote)

I will put that nucleus of songs right up there with any other solo album's nucleus, including TLOS.

[Wirestone]

I think in terms of hands-on arrangements and songwriting, TLOS and its bonus tracks (and some of the Xmas album, too) suggest that Brian has more going on than I may have thought in 98. But that's obviously a personal impression.

Backing you up partially, though, in terms of songwriting, I think Cry is probably the best thing he did in the 90s. Possibly the 80s, too.

[variable2]

Backing you up partially, though, in terms of songwriting, I think Cry is probably the best thing he did in the 90s. Possibly the 80s, too.

wow, really? yikes..  it's pretty bland to me, not just the production and arrangement but the song itself

best thing he did in the 80s?? what about melt away, there's so many.. cry doesn't hold a candle..

[Wirestone]

It's all about the chords and depth of feeling. A rare minor-key tune, and some of Brian's best falsetto on record in ages. Again, totally my opinion.

[MBE]

Cry is a song I want to like but it needs a rewrite badly. It's ok for it's era, but I can't say I play it much.