Whats the beef?

[carlydenise]

I like Al.  His voice was instrumental in their harmony vocals, he's cute too.

[donald]

Again, his voice was the anchor...the keystone...he could do Mike, Carl, Brian, fill in in almost any harmony part or lead...often unnoticed.

All those years singing H&V, for example...and doing a lot of Carl and Brian parts live over the years.

BIG part of the sound.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

How tall is Al anyway?

Here is a list of the shortest rock stars:

Prince (5' 2")
John Mellencamp (5' 7")
Bono (5' 7 1/2")
Thom Yorke (5' 5 1/4") (Radiohead singer)
Angus Young (5' 2")
Roger Daltrey (5' 7")
Ronnie James Dio (5' 4")
Iggy Pop (5' 7 1/2")
Paul Simon (5' 3")
Bob Marley (5' 7")

[Andrew G. Doe]

When I first met Alan in 1985, I had no trouble looking right over the top of his head. I'm 5' 8", figure he's 5' 4" tops.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Al is what he is. He was the rhythym guitarist in the band. He was usually the 4th lead vocalist in line, behind Mike, Brian, and Carl. With the exception of Holland, his songwriting contributions seemed to be obligatory. And, some fans might hold against him the fact that he isn't a Wilson; he came and went, came back, and went again! Bruce Johnston has actually been a Beach Boy for more years than Al. I'm also still amazed at what Al did (if anything?), to get those great vocals out of Brian on MIU - which Al produced! I do respect Al for staying relatively "clean" during a period and being in a group that was notorious for sex, drugs, and alcohol. And, because of that, I'm betting that Al will be the last Beach Boy standing.

My only two "beefs" with Al are, 1) he is The Beach Boy who is supposed to be the "normal" one; however, in reading/hearing his interviews over the last 20-30 years, he says some of the "loopiest" things, and 2) in recent years, Al has been critical of Mike (and Bruce?) for their "musical direction", especially the setlists. Then I look at "California Calling", "Island Girl", Al's live CD, his contribution to the Hallmark CD ("PT Cruiser"), Al's setlists for the few concerts he has played, and the songs on Al's upcoming album. Al Jardine is a hypocrite.

"PT Cruiser" - copyright infringement central.

[Jon Stebbins]

He's the least important member of the original band.

I think until 'Friends' Dennis was the least important member.

I realize since I'm the Dennis advocate guy that my sudden appearance to reply to this is oh so predictable...but if you can get past that, i think there is some seriously flawed logic in your statement. How on earth could Dennis be considered the least important Beach Boy in the early days? (pre-Friends was your delineation)

Lets not overlook he was the one who talked Brian into writing about "cool stuff' like Sufing and Cars. Might seems like an anecdote now...but it was a fundemental stroke of genius.

Dennis was easily the most popular Beach Boy in their early fame period. Reports have him receiving more fan mail than the rest of the band combined in the '64/65 days. The screaming girls that were the golden goose of the BB's fan base in those days would literally knock the other guys over to get to Dennis. Brian has said this many times, Dave Marks told me he was trampled by thousands of girls trying to get to Dennis in late '63. This translated into LP sales and concert ticket sales and general popularity for the band...no doubt. Were any girls showing up to scream at Al? Maybe three or four.

On top of that Dennis' singing voice is prevalent in practically all of the hits. Surfin, Surfin Safari, 409, Surfin USA, Shut Down, Surfer Girl, Catch A Wave, In My Room, Don't Worry Baby, I Get Around, Little Honda, Hushabye, All Summer Long, Do You Wanna Dance, When I Grow Up, Sloop John B, Wouldn't It Be Nice, Good Vibrations, Heroes and Villains etc...etc... his voice is huge in all of those songs and many many more, as many as Al for sure. And...he sang lead on more songs than Al too. Count them up. And guess what? He played drums on more of songs than Al played guitar on, not to mention than Brian played bass on(Brian played a lot of piano, Al played a lot of bass, but Dennis played a lot drums)...its a fact. He was in on the arrangements of things as much as anyone other than Brian and Carl. He was a sounding board for Brian in much the same way Carl was...example...Van Dyke told me that Brian premiered the raw piano progression for Surf's Up to he and Dennis, before the lyrics were written. So then how can Dennis be categorized as the least important during that '62 to 67 stage...please, I'm interested, run the logic by me.

I would say that Brian of course was the most important, but arguably Dennis was right there in importance with Mike and Carl...if we are taking into account all things...creativity, participation in the recordings, political importance in the way the band evolved and did their jobs, popularity, and performance in concert.

[sockittome]

Simple answer to the thread title:  Maybe everyone's getting tired of bashing on Mike. 

[Dove Nested Towers]

I hate Al Jardine. After the commercial disappointment of Sunflower, Al would intimidate Brian if he went into the studio to do anything but help Al finish "Loop De Loop", which Al thought was necessary to save the BBs careers.  That's why Brian stopped making music (he only recorded when he could sneak by Al). That's also why the group went to Holland, so Brian could produce away from Al. Al wasn't supposed to know, but somehow he found out (I think he cornered Brian's wife?!?!) and flipping flopping flew his airplane to Holland. He made Brian stop recording Mt. Vernon & Fairway and the rest is history. friggin' Al!

These stories are damning and fascinating, IF true (I have no problem with mr. Jardine, but this stuff sounds pretty bad).

[Aegir]

That's clearly a joke.

[Dove Nested Towers]

Please forgive my obtuseness.

[Amy B.]

How tall is Al anyway?

Here is a list of the shortest rock stars:

Prince (5' 2")
John Mellencamp (5' 7")
Bono (5' 7 1/2")
Thom Yorke (5' 5 1/4") (Radiohead singer)
Angus Young (5' 2")
Roger Daltrey (5' 7")
Ronnie James Dio (5' 4")
Iggy Pop (5' 7 1/2")
Paul Simon (5' 3")
Bob Marley (5' 7")

Those are the shortest MALE rock stars. (Sorry-- I just feel like women in music are often forgotten.)

[shelter]

I think until 'Friends' Dennis was the least important member.

I realize since I'm the Dennis advocate guy that my sudden appearance to reply to this is oh so predictable...but if you can get past that, i think there is some seriously flawed logic in your statement. How on earth could Dennis be considered the least important Beach Boy in the early days? (pre-Friends was your delineation)

Can't say I didn't see this coming... 

So... I don't want to bring Dennis down because I love the guy as much as anyone else here... But if Jon is going to be Dennis's advocate (which is perfectly fine and understandable, of course), I'll be Al's advocate...  Just because I really like the guy and think he's often underrated. No offense meant here, it's all in good fun, OK? Feel free to try to shoot everything down that I'm writing here.
- Yes, it was Dennis's idea to do surf songs. But I'm not sure the Beach Boys wouldn't have made it big without the surf songs. They just would've done songs about girls and cars and I think they still would've done just fine. But that's just my guess, of course. We'll never know for sure.
- When Brian first decided to start a band, who did he want to be in his band? Carl, Mike and Al. Not Dennis. Audree made him let Dennis join.
- A common (mis)conception about the Beach Boys is that they couldn't play their instruments very well. It's not my intention to point fingers or blame anyone for that, but did you ever hear anyone say that Brian couldn't play bass? Or that Carl couldn't play guitar? Or that Al was an incompetent guitarist? I haven't. And while I'm not at all trying to say that Dennis was a useless drummer, I did hear quite some people comment on his playing. I don't want to start a discussion here about Dennis's skills as a drummer, but I think it's safe to say that his capacities as an instrumentalist were more questioned than Brian's, Carl's or Al's in the early years.
- I'm not sure who sang the harmonies on which songs in the studio, but on stage it was always Mike, Carl, Brian (or Glen, or Bruce) and Al in the early years. Dennis was rarely in the vocal blend on stage.
- Especially if we also count the post-Friends era, Al has a considerably more impressive chart record than Dennis. Dennis (if you don't count 'You Are So Beautiful') never wrote or produced a hit single in his life and sang lead on just one ('Do You Wanna Dance', US #12). Al wrote 'California' (US #84) and 'Lady Lynda' (UK #7), produced 'Cottonfields' (UK #5) and 'Peggy Sue' (US #59) and sang lead on 'Help Me Rhonda' (US #1, UK #27), 'Then I Kissed Her' (UK #5), 'Peggy Sue' (US #59) and 'Come Go With Me' (US #18). And I won't even say anything about 'Sloop John B.'
- Obviously Dennis was the sex symbol of the group. But I don't think the Beach Boys were ever a "boy band" kind of group, like The Beatles (unintentionally) were. I'm pretty sure that for a large majority of their fans, even in their early years, it was more about the music than anything else.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I think the main reason a lot of people dislike Al is because he sided with Mike in the 1970s, and he could be very cheesy at times. He was a proponent of the oldies movement in the late 70s doing songs like Peggy Sue, Come Go With Me and School Days. And yet he sided with Carl in the 1980s, but I'm not really sure what that means. The BBs were an oldies bad, and they all seemed to embrace it, even Carl by then.  I also takes Al a very long time to do mediocre songs.

As for the hits that he got versus Dennis, that says nothing about the quality of music. Babarann was a bigger hit then God Only Knows. Not to say he didn't have some good stuff. Don't Go Near the Water was excellent, but not a big hit. Maybe Dennis was ahead of his time. It wasn't until the early 90s that Forever became a 'hit'. John Stamos was a genius in turning a beatiful song into a cheese fest. Ok, getting off track.

[shelter]

As for the hits that he got versus Dennis, that says nothing about the quality of music.

We weren't talking about quality but about importance. I never said that Al was better or more talented than Dennis.

[The Heartical Don]

How tall is Al anyway?

Here is a list of the shortest rock stars:

Prince (5' 2")
John Mellencamp (5' 7")
Bono (5' 7 1/2")
Thom Yorke (5' 5 1/4") (Radiohead singer)
Angus Young (5' 2")
Roger Daltrey (5' 7")
Ronnie James Dio (5' 4")
Iggy Pop (5' 7 1/2")
Paul Simon (5' 3")
Bob Marley (5' 7")

Those are the shortest MALE rock stars. (Sorry-- I just feel like women in music are often forgotten.)

How tall was Dennis?

[Jon Stebbins]

As for the hits that he got versus Dennis, that says nothing about the quality of music.

We weren't talking about quality but about importance. I never said that Al was better or more talented than Dennis.

But to say he was more important is i think working with some old debunked conventional wisdom. If you love the guy Dennis, like you say, then you should get your head around the fact that his voice was essential to the majority of the Beach Boys best recordings and most of their biggest hits. You site that Al sang in the blend on stage and Dennis did not, well yeah, he was playing drums. But on the hit records Dennis' voice was there big time. Take In My Room for example, on stage Al sings what was Dennis' vocal part on the record, this happens a lot. Anyone who really dissects the vocal blends on the blendiest of BB's songs(Surfer Girl, In My Room, Don't Worry Baby, Hushabye, Girls On The Beach, WIBN, Heroes and Villains etc...) will know that Dennis' voice was normally the third most prominent in the stack, after his two brothers.

As far as playing his instrument, Al did not play very much guitar on BB's stuff, so no need to criticize what isn't there. Dave Marks played on the first 4 LP's, Al did play a lot of bass, Carl usually recorded two parts himself. Drums are the most essential instrument on a rock recording, no doubt. Dennis played drums on way more BB's songs and hits than he has been given credit for through the years. There is a BB's sessions book in the works, the tapes are being examined, and when it hits people will be surprised at how many important BB's records Dennis was the drummer on. You will also be surprised how many BB's recordings Al was the bassist on. He was a fine bass player. But the criticism of Dennis' drumming has diminished big time through the years because instead of relying on anecdotes and non-research people are finally paying attention to what really happened. He was raw, he was primitive, and he was a natural with feel and power. He gave the band something with his drumming. Did Al give the band something with his guitar playing? Well, he did a good job of playing Dave Marks parts on the surf and car stuff for many decades in concert.

And you are using Al's chart success as a gauge...i think the fact that Dennis had a #16 LP in the UK last year that consisted of  two CD's of songs that were all written by him trumps Lady Lynda by about 20 times over...while Al is still trying to find a label to release his solo thing. Just like you said about Dennis, I'm a fan of Al, i think he was talented and great as a vocalist, certainly a better singer than Dennis in the traditional sense. But more important than DW? I can't buy it, and I'd have a hard time buying that with Bruce, Dave, Mike and Carl too. I think there's a perfectly plausible argument that Dennis was the second most important Beach Boy...or tied for second.

[lance]

He's the least important member of the original band.

I think until 'Friends' Dennis was the least important member.

I realize since I'm the Dennis advocate guy that my sudden appearance to reply to this is oh so predictable...but if you can get past that, i think there is some seriously flawed logic in your statement. How on earth could Dennis be considered the least important Beach Boy in the early days? (pre-Friends was your delineation)

L

I for one am glad you do it, you more than almost anyone are responsible for the defeating of the mythology that the Beach Boys did not play on their record, a myth I bought into decades before I even became a fan.

[tpesky]

I think Al's most important contributions would be his voice first and his stability. His voice was so key to the live act for SO many years. He sang alot of Brian's parts and did a fantastic job. His falsetto while not as strong as Brian's sounded alot like Brian.  Jeff Foskett did a nice job after Al, but his voice stuck out, it didn't blend the same way when the backing harmonies were Al, Bruce, and Carl.  Even when not singing falsetto, he could match Brian like nobody else I have ever heard. Think Sloop John B Knebworth, as rough as Brian is there, Al matches him almost perfectly. Hell when I saw them in 2006 together, Al matched him perfectly on Sloop John B. His leads were always strong as well.

Al also brought stability, especially in the late 70's/early 80's. I think of the Australia shows, it's like a 4 ring circus with the other guy's stage antics and Al was at the center singing and playing strongly, I believe he held those tours together.  He does not have the song writing talent of Brian or Dennis or Bruce or even Carl (although Carl generally disappoints me as a writer), obviously does not have the stage presence or Mike or Dennis , does not have the instrumental talent of Brian, Carl, or Bruce but he does have the best voice over the long haul of any BB besides Carl and he was just always there, you could always count on Al being there from 1963-1998.

[shelter]

As for the hits that he got versus Dennis, that says nothing about the quality of music.

We weren't talking about quality but about importance. I never said that Al was better or more talented than Dennis.

But to say he was more important is i think working with some old debunked conventional wisdom. If you love the guy Dennis, like you say, then you should get your head around the fact that his voice was essential to the majority of the Beach Boys best recordings and most of their biggest hits. You site that Al sang in the blend on stage and Dennis did not, well yeah, he was playing drums. But on the hit records Dennis' voice was there big time. Take In My Room for example, on stage Al sings what was Dennis' vocal part on the record, this happens a lot. Anyone who really dissects the vocal blends on the blendiest of BB's songs(Surfer Girl, In My Room, Don't Worry Baby, Hushabye, Girls On The Beach, WIBN, Heroes and Villains etc...) will know that Dennis' voice was normally the third most prominent in the stack, after his two brothers.

As far as playing his instrument, Al did not play very much guitar on BB's stuff, so no need to criticize what isn't there. Dave Marks played on the first 4 LP's, Al did play a lot of bass, Carl usually recorded two parts himself. Drums are the most essential instrument on a rock recording, no doubt. Dennis played drums on way more BB's songs and hits than he has been given credit for through the years. There is a BB's sessions book in the works, the tapes are being examined, and when it hits people will be surprised at how many important BB's records Dennis was the drummer on. You will also be surprised how many BB's recordings Al was the bassist on. He was a fine bass player. But the criticism of Dennis' drumming has diminished big time through the years because instead of relying on anecdotes and non-research people are finally paying attention to what really happened. He was raw, he was primitive, and he was a natural with feel and power. He gave the band something with his drumming. Did Al give the band something with his guitar playing? Well, he did a good job of playing Dave Marks parts on the surf and car stuff for many decades in concert.

And you are using Al's chart success as a gauge...i think the fact that Dennis had a #16 LP in the UK last year that consisted of  two CD's of songs that were all written by him trumps Lady Lynda by about 20 times over...while Al is still trying to find a label to release his solo thing. Just like you said about Dennis, I'm a fan of Al, i think he was talented and great as a vocalist, certainly a better singer than Dennis in the traditional sense. But more important than DW? I can't buy it, and I'd have a hard time buying that with Bruce, Dave, Mike and Carl too. I think there's a perfectly plausible argument that Dennis was the second most important Beach Boy...or tied for second.

Once again, the discussion's not who was the more talented, better musician of the two. That was Dennis hands down, no argument there. But the success of POB is not relevant here, because we're talking about who was more important for the Beach Boys.

I guess it just depends on how you look at it, really. If you look at the Beach Boys artistically - yeah, than Dennis was far more important. The songs he wrote for the group were much better, deeper and more progressive than Al's songs. No doubt about it. He was easily the second best songwriter in the group and probably my third favorite vocalist.

But if you look at commercial success and the image that the Beach Boys have with the mainstream fans, than I'm certain that Al was more important. Because if you look at the cold hard facts, from a casual fan's point of view... Than Al was the guy who was always up front on stage with Mike and Carl and who sang lead on 'Help Me, Rhonda' and 'Then I Kissed Her' and 'Cottonfields'... While Dennis was that drummer who really played too rough for the band he was in, sang lead on just one hit single, wrote some songs on albums that didn't sell, had a solo album that didn't sell either and didn't get much recognition until 25 years after his death. Obviously that's not the way I see it or would like to see it, but if you look at it from the point of view of a casual fan who just own a greatest hits album and maybe 'Pet Sounds' -which is the majority- that's pretty much the deal...

I really admire the way you're always defending Dennis's legacy, but I hope you see my point here, whether you agree with it or not.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

As for the hits that he got versus Dennis, that says nothing about the quality of music.

We weren't talking about quality but about importance. I never said that Al was better or more talented than Dennis.

But to say he was more important is i think working with some old debunked conventional wisdom. If you love the guy Dennis, like you say, then you should get your head around the fact that his voice was essential to the majority of the Beach Boys best recordings and most of their biggest hits. You site that Al sang in the blend on stage and Dennis did not, well yeah, he was playing drums. But on the hit records Dennis' voice was there big time. Take In My Room for example, on stage Al sings what was Dennis' vocal part on the record, this happens a lot. Anyone who really dissects the vocal blends on the blendiest of BB's songs(Surfer Girl, In My Room, Don't Worry Baby, Hushabye, Girls On The Beach, WIBN, Heroes and Villains etc...) will know that Dennis' voice was normally the third most prominent in the stack, after his two brothers.

As far as playing his instrument, Al did not play very much guitar on BB's stuff, so no need to criticize what isn't there. Dave Marks played on the first 4 LP's, Al did play a lot of bass, Carl usually recorded two parts himself. Drums are the most essential instrument on a rock recording, no doubt. Dennis played drums on way more BB's songs and hits than he has been given credit for through the years. There is a BB's sessions book in the works, the tapes are being examined, and when it hits people will be surprised at how many important BB's records Dennis was the drummer on. You will also be surprised how many BB's recordings Al was the bassist on. He was a fine bass player. But the criticism of Dennis' drumming has diminished big time through the years because instead of relying on anecdotes and non-research people are finally paying attention to what really happened. He was raw, he was primitive, and he was a natural with feel and power. He gave the band something with his drumming. Did Al give the band something with his guitar playing? Well, he did a good job of playing Dave Marks parts on the surf and car stuff for many decades in concert.

And you are using Al's chart success as a gauge...i think the fact that Dennis had a #16 LP in the UK last year that consisted of  two CD's of songs that were all written by him trumps Lady Lynda by about 20 times over...while Al is still trying to find a label to release his solo thing. Just like you said about Dennis, I'm a fan of Al, i think he was talented and great as a vocalist, certainly a better singer than Dennis in the traditional sense. But more important than DW? I can't buy it, and I'd have a hard time buying that with Bruce, Dave, Mike and Carl too. I think there's a perfectly plausible argument that Dennis was the second most important Beach Boy...or tied for second.

Once again, the discussion's not who was the more talented, better musician of the two. That was Dennis hands down, no argument there. But the success of POB is not relevant here, because we're talking about who was more important for the Beach Boys.

I guess it just depends on how you look at it, really. If you look at the Beach Boys artistically - yeah, than Dennis was far more important. The songs he wrote for the group were much better, deeper and more progressive than Al's songs. No doubt about it. He was easily the second best songwriter in the group and probably my third favorite vocalist.

But if you look at commercial success and the image that the Beach Boys have with the mainstream fans, than I'm certain that Al was more important. Because if you look at the cold hard facts, from a casual fan's point of view... Than Al was the guy who was always up front on stage with Mike and Carl and who sang lead on 'Help Me, Rhonda' and 'Then I Kissed Her' and 'Cottonfields'... While Dennis was that drummer who really played too rough for the band he was in, sang lead on just one hit single, wrote some songs on albums that didn't sell, had a solo album that didn't sell either and didn't get much recognition until 30 years after his death. Obviously that's not the way I see it or would like to see it, but if you look at it from the point of view of a casual fan who just own a greatest hits album and maybe 'Pet Sounds' -which is the majority- that's pretty much the deal...

I really admire the way you're always defending Dennis's legacy, but I hope you see my point here, whether you agree with it or not.

I think the average female BB fan would disagree with you.

[MBE]

Al is darn talented, but I don't think he had Dennis' charisma nor the same level of stunning originality. Al may have sang on more Beach Boys hits, but I feel Dennis was certainly better known providing Brian with just as much input. Remember if you're talking about 1962-64 Al didn't do too much. Of course he was gone about a year, but even when he wasn't I don't think he came into his own until 1965. Dennis really wasn't as developed vocally or compositionally as he was by Friends, but he was a big part of what the Beach Boys were on every level right from the start. I mean he even sang part of the lead on "Luau."

[Jon Stebbins]

Yeah its tough to say Al was more important in the early days when he wasn't even on the first four or five top 40 hits, and not on the first two LP's(other than Surfin') and just a part-timer bassist on the third LP...Dennis was all over that stuff. Yes by 64 Al was very important, he's awesome in the All Summer Long to Pet Sounds era, but the BB's had a lot under their belt already and Al wasn't really involved in that early rise to fame period other than the Candix single....he's not on Surfin Safari, 409, Surfin USA, Lonely Sea, Shut Down, Surfer Girl etc...I think he may play bass on LDC although he's not listed on the session, he definitely plays bass on Catch A Wave and Boogie Woodie, and may be in there vocally on In My Room but David is the second guitarist on all that stuff, and Dennis is drumming and more prominent vocally than Al on that stuff for sure. Its really the 4th LP when Al starts to emerge as a presence in the band, and the BB's were already a giant hit by then. Al certainly gave them another talented voice that pushed the BB's even further towards their hallowed place in rock history. Anyway, Shelter you and I have to disagree on this one, I really believe if you dissect the tracks, who sang what, who played what, that Dennis was more involved and more important than Al all the way up to Summer Days and Pet Sounds. On those two Al is definitely more there than Dennis. Smiley Smile is about equal again. Wild Honey Dennis is mostly missing vocally because of the addition of Bruce and plays some very minimal drums due to Brian wanting to cool down the sound, and then we arrive at Friends.

[adamghost]

Al J. is alright in my book...

[hypehat]

any excuse to post this again.... all compliments to Mr Roach 

[Dove Nested Towers]

  He's a clean machine. Al's all right by me also, BTW.