"Sound of Free" vs. "Lady (Fallin in Love)"

[grillo]

Is anybody surprised at the group's decision to perform "Lady" on The David Frost Show?

Not really, since they also played "Vegetables" and "Lady" was the newest output. Perhaps an US release was in planning?

Yeah, I was gonna mention the "Vegetables" performance; I find that choice equally perplexing.

Weren't they getting ready to release SMiLE as well as a new album? These songs would be great singles off of any album so it makes sense to promote them on TV.

[JB Wilojarston]

When David asks if Lady "is on the new album," I beleive someone answers 'yes.'

[hypehat]

When David asks if Lady "is on the new album," I beleive someone answers 'yes.'

They're not terribly good at that sort of thing.... Theres that Mike Douglas footage where they play Breakaway and CTN, and apparently those were supposed to be on the next LP. Either the tracklists were last minute things, or they're just saying it to impress.
I think Grillo's otm concerning Veggies. They were doing Wonderful at gigs too, remember...

[Aegir]

Why did they play Good Vibrations on TV in 1980? Sometimes you don't necessarily want to promote a single, you just want people to see you're a cool band.

[grillo]

Why did they play Good Vibrations on TV in 1980? Sometimes you don't necessarily want to promote a single, you just want people to see you're a cool band.

True, but by that time most people (including themselves?) didn't think they were a relevant band with new ideas, but rather a good-time throwback group. Ten years earlier they were playing new songs on TV, not Surfin', because they were (in their minds) still relevant and dynamic, etc.

[Sound of Free]

Of the two I would pick Sound of Free. Big surprise there, right. 

I like Lady a lot and like most of Dennis' ballads (and LOVE some of them), but I really wish he had done more uptempo songs like Slip on Through, San Miguel, It's a New Day, I'm Going Your Way (California Slide), It's About Time, etc.

[Dove Nested Towers]

To my ears, there's a kind of desperation and forced, doomed euphoria in some of Dennis' "upbeat"songs, particularly Celebrate the News, with its tag "celebrate the news, there ain't no blues" almost like overcoming the "blues" or depression, is a piece
of cake and you can just snap your fingers or through casual affirmations you can beat it.

You know as you listen to it that it's not realistic, it's not that easy, and, because he approaches it as if it was, he is fooling himself and is certain to fail and slide back into despair, drug and alcohol abuse, etc. It's very poignant, and of course with 20/20 hind-
sight it's easier to identify than it would have been at the time.

The optimism expressed in other songs like SOF and Slip on Through is very uplifting,
though.

[Bicyclerider]

Lady is on the Landlocked tape, so yes, it was being considered for Surf's Up. 

Repeat after me, "there never was any Landlocked tape or album". Steve Desper - the guy who compiled that tape and cut the acetate - told me that it was just a bunch of songs to play on the radio. Not an album... not a potential album. Just current work in progress.

There was a tape of songs being considered for the followup album to Sunflower - that is what I am referring to as the "Landlocked" tape, since that it how it has been booted and referred for many years.  And Desper did say he played the acetate of that tape to Warner's (on this board in fact), so that work tape was presented to the record company to show the Boys' progress on the next album.

[carlydenise]

Sound of Free is my favorite song by DW.   It's a shame he couldn't have had his solo works put front and center on some BB projects, he was underrated as an emerging artist, and that is a crying shame.

[Ed Roach]

Dennis was coming into his own as a songwriter and producer, and was far more prolific than Carl.  Brian apparently wanted Carl to take the reins but I suspect Dennis felt he should become the upfront person and be more involved in the album decisions.  Dennis essentially "saved" the Add Some Music LP after it was rejected by Warners, he was still the "sex symbol" and hippest guy in the group.  But then Carl and Dennis had a falling out over the running order of Surf's Up and pulled his songs out to pursue a solo album.

You know, I'm sometimes hesitant to join in on these threads; heck, it's taken me days to even respond to this comment.  I often feel like I kill some threads I comment on, and I question whether it's because people think I'm a big bag of wind, or if I intimidate people because I was really there...  And don't get me wrong - people like Desper & I, that were actually there, (and Desper & I did a stint at the same time with Mr. Zappa & crew out on the road, too!), we often cherish sites like these, because they remind us of so much we would have otherwise forgotten. There are some things that I'm happy not to remember, but these things, and these times, well... I'd like to understand them a hell of a lot better than I do!  Otherwise, I've only got my own limited viewpoint, and my own slanted memories.  Give me more of the facts, the proper time frames, & the associated accomplices, if you please:

Having gotten that off my chest, I absolutely love this comment by Bicyclerider, and love where it has taken my memories...  What he brings up here ties in so strongly with when I was first totally entrenched in BeachBoyLand...  And it's also something that's puzzled me forever, and something that I wouldn't have otherwise tied-in to "Surf's Up".  (I also LOVE that he reminded me that it was Dennis - along with the unmentioned Dave Berson from Warner's, who totally appreciated & respected Dennis, and pushed until it became "Sunflower" - Dennis was the one who saved the Add Some Music album.  And I was part of that, because I listened to every acetate available for selection, over & over, and convinced him that "Forever" deserved to be more than a discarded demo!)  But I always wondered why he lost the stature that he had had for a brief while with The Boys...  I had always thought that it had more to do with Manson's actual trial, and  also thought that 'they' thought he was getting too big for his britches; Mr. "Movie Star" & all.  Who'll ever know, for sure?  All I know is that for awhile there, he was not only the man-in-charge, he was also appreciated as their greatest hope to be contemporary once again, as he had made them once before.

It's a shame he couldn't have had his solo works put front and center on some BB projects, he was underrated as an emerging artist, and that is a crying shame.

It really is a crying shame, and in my mind ranks up there with the tragedy of the mistreatment Brian was subjected to by the group and its sometimes vicious tentacles.  That Dennis was a genius too is finally being recogized by more than the 'cult' group that has always been aware of him, thanks mainly to the recent release.  However, it couldn't be more obvious than it is in these tv appearances, where even Mike knew that Dennis was their only possible entre' into the world of 'hip'.  Alas, along came "Endless Summer", (ok, I'm jumping forward a few years, & skipping Blondie & Ricky), and then there was nothing but looking back - with or without love!

[Sheriff John Stone]

It really is a crying shame, and in my mind ranks up there with the tragedy of the mistreatment Brian was subjected to by the group and its sometimes vicious tentacles. 

Ed, can you shed any more light on the "mistreatment Brian was subjected to by the group"? We appreciate your recollections....

[smile-holland]

You know, I'm sometimes hesitant to join in on these threads; heck, it's taken me days to even respond to this comment.  I often feel like I kill some threads I comment on, and I question whether it's because people think I'm a big bag of wind, or if I intimidate people because I was really there...  And don't get me wrong - people like Desper & I, that were actually there, (and Desper & I did a stint at the same time with Mr. Zappa & crew out on the road, too!), we often cherish sites like these, because they remind us of so much we would have otherwise forgotten.

Ed, we cherich the fact that insiders from then and now take their time to visit us and share their stories with us. So in case it feels like you're "killing the subject": be sure that you're not, we (as Sheriff already mentioned) appreciate these inside-stories a lot.

[MZ6]

Ed, I'd just like to add my own appreciation and thanks to you for sharing your insights. And I don't believe you kill any threads - far from it; your time and what you post is deeply valued.

[lupinofan]

Was it typical for Europen 45's to have solid centers, as is the case with Sound of Free / Lady on Stateside?  I had thought they generally had punch out centers so that they could be played on either a standard turntable spindle or be punched out to play on a wide 45 rpm spindle.

I'm a bit late in replying, but to clear up the UK 45 centre confusion, the timeline runs approximately thus:

1950 - 1959: Triangular push-out centre
1957 - 1969: Circular push-out centre
1967 - current day: Solid centre

All dates are wildly approximate. The issue of 45rpm centres apparently depends on the equipment used to press the records. For example, Pathe in France were pressing 45s with solid centres as early as 1965, whereas Polydor were producing singles with large centres and supplying plastic "spiders" in the 1980s.

It is possible to collect different copies of the same single with both solid and "optional" centres (EMI parlance) - I have "Break Away" in both variants, as well as various late-1960s Beatles singles with both types.

Hope this helps.

[Bicyclerider]

I'd like also to thank Ed for his comments and participation in this board . . . you are still writing a book I hope.

I have a question for Ed related to what seemed like Dennis' ascendency to front man of the group in 69-70 . . . and why it didn't happen.  the group's popularity in the US was at a nadir at this time . . . no hits of any kind.   They had turned to outside producers (Murray, Rick Henn, Terry Jacks) without success.  Dennis was writing and producing and was the only member of the band with any "hip" cachet.  Slip on Through opened Sunflower and Forever was the best song on the album (IMO, certainly one of the stand out tracks). 

Why didn't Dennis become the leader of the group?  You mentioned jealousy - he was getting too big for his britches, what with a movie career and all - but everything I've read about Dennis mentions how erratic he was, how he would work hard on recording for brief periods but then not show up for sessions to go surfing, sailing, or partying.  Could his unreliability have convinced the others that he would not be suitable as front man?  Or could Dennis have realized himself he didn't want to handle the responsibility of leading the band?  I've never heard the full story of what went on with Dennis' pulling his material from Surf's Up, but it seems like that conflict with Carl (and perhaps others of the group - especially Jack Reilly) was crucial in Dennis giving up on the Beach Boys as his primary artistic outlet, and the group really lost out as a result.  One can only imagine if the BB albums of the period had included songs like It's a New Day, Barbara, wouldn't it be nice to live again, Carry Me Home, etc. how much better the albums would have been.

[Dancing Bear]

Why didn't Dennis become the leader of the group?

- He didn't write THAT hit single they needed so much in the dry years
- He didn't fit the part AT ALL. Brian also didn't after '68, but there was always hope that his old self would come back.
- I'm shooting in the dark here, but did he show any interest in tracks that weren't his?

[Dancing Bear]

You know, I'm sometimes hesitant to join in on these threads; heck, it's taken me days to even respond to this comment.  I often feel like I kill some threads I comment on, and I question whether it's because people think I'm a big bag of wind, or if I intimidate people because I was really there...  And don't get me wrong - people like Desper & I, that were actually there, (and Desper & I did a stint at the same time with Mr. Zappa & crew out on the road, too!), we often cherish sites like these, because they remind us of so much we would have otherwise forgotten.

Ed, what happens is, people are usually afraid to post the wrong thing and the guy who was there reply "You just don't get it and never will. I'm outta here!". The more you join in, the more folks will reply with ease.

[phirnis]

- I'm shooting in the dark here, but did he show any interest in tracks that weren't his?

That one's quite interesting. I've often wondered what an album like Holland would sound like had a (sincerely motivated) Brian produced all members' material. You'd have only 2 BW originals but the whole record would have been "produced by Brian Wilson".

To me, it seems like only Carl did care about the whole group's material as much.

[Dove Nested Towers]

It really is a crying shame, and in my mind ranks up there with the tragedy of the mistreatment Brian was subjected to by the group and its sometimes vicious tentacles. 

Ed, can you shed any more light on the "mistreatment Brian was subjected to by the group"? We appreciate your recollections....

Hi Ed, I add my appreciation and interest in any aspects of the above topic that you're comfortable sharing. You're probably saving the bulk of your perspective and anecdotes for your book, but everything you post here is very interesting, far from thread-killing.

[Ed Roach]

Hey, thanks for all of your support & encouragement.  And don't worry; I'm not going anywhere!
(Somehow, an addiction to The Beach Boys is a lot harder to kick than anything else  that I've encountered yet.)

I kind of feel a bit foolish now, like I was reaching out for these responses.  However, I have noticed in the past that it seems like threads will either wither & die after I comment, or it'll take days before they are responded to.  And I've wondered why; I really try not to sound like a know-it-all...  I mean, to quote myself from that last statement:
"we often cherish sites like these, because they remind us of so much we would have otherwise forgotten. There are some things that I'm happy not to remember, but these things, and these times, well... I'd like to understand them a hell of a lot better than I do!  Otherwise, I've only got my own limited viewpoint, and my own slanted memories.  Give me more of the facts, the proper time frames, & the associated accomplices, if you please"

I've never had a problem sharing the memories & experiences I've been fortunate enough to have been through, & that includes the many years pre & post Beach Boys.
If I have a problem or two, ( and I guess I may have), it's being able to shut up and listen to others experiences.  Which is again why I love these boards, which give me the opportunity to view things from other perspectives.
So again, don't worry; I  intend to stick around Forever...

[grillo]

- I'm shooting in the dark here, but did he show any interest in tracks that weren't his?

Dennis always seems to have done whatever he could for Brian. He usually stuck around long enough to sing on BW productions, but I see your point. Is he audible on any Mike or Alan or even Carl tracks during this period (I know he and Carl worked together a little on LA)?

[MBE]

- I'm shooting in the dark here, but did he show any interest in tracks that weren't his?

Dennis always seems to have done whatever he could for Brian. He usually stuck around long enough to sing on BW productions, but I see your point. Is he audible on any Mike or Alan or even Carl tracks during this period (I know he and Carl worked together a little on LA)?

He helped a lot on Lady Lynda.

[Aegir]

I've often wondered what an album like Holland would sound like had a (sincerely motivated) Brian produced all members' material. You'd have only 2 BW originals but the whole record would have been "produced by Brian Wilson".

I think that Brian being in charge would've resulted in everyone else's songs not being on Holland. It would've been the Fairy Tale EP, Funky Pretty, and a few other tracks.

[grillo]

- I'm shooting in the dark here, but did he show any interest in tracks that weren't his?

Dennis always seems to have done whatever he could for Brian. He usually stuck around long enough to sing on BW productions, but I see your point. Is he audible on any Mike or Alan or even Carl tracks during this period (I know he and Carl worked together a little on LA)?

He helped a lot on Lady Lynda.

Yeah, but the time period I meant to be talking about was '68-'74, when DW really had the chance to be the new BW. My comment on LA was just to point out that Denn's seems to have started working more with others after his own career went out the window.

[Bicyclerider]

- I'm shooting in the dark here, but did he show any interest in tracks that weren't his?

Dennis always seems to have done whatever he could for Brian. He usually stuck around long enough to sing on BW productions, but I see your point. Is he audible on any Mike or Alan or even Carl tracks during this period (I know he and Carl worked together a little on LA)?

He helped a lot on Lady Lynda.

Yeah, but the time period I meant to be talking about was '68-'74, when DW really had the chance to be the new BW. My comment on LA was just to point out that Denn's seems to have started working more with others after his own career went out the window.

My idea of Dennis as front man would be that he would be featured more in the stage show and on TV appearances, get more Asides, get more of his material onto the albums.  He would be the "face" of the Beach Boys - because let's face it, without Brian there really wasn't an outgoing, attractive, charismatic member of the group other than Dennis.   Mike was outgoing and for stage performances acted as the frontman, talking between songs etc.  But his stage act was old and corny even in 1965.  Dennis could have done a Brian and given his mostly finished songs to Carl to finish for the albums if he was not disciplined enough to do it.  But next to Brian the greatest songwriter/composer in the Beach Boys was Dennis.