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Poll
Question: Rate Sunflower
5 - 155 (73.8%)
4 - 45 (21.4%)
3 - 8 (3.8%)
2 - 0 (0%)
1 - 1 (0.5%)
0 - 1 (0.5%)
Total Voters: 193

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Author Topic: Sunflower  (Read 167321 times)
the captain
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« Reply #175 on: April 02, 2008, 04:25:46 PM »

I really appreciate your posts, Ana-Lu, just because Sunflower seems to be one of those albums onto which people here heap what I consider an excessive amount of praise.

As a work of engineering and production, I think virtually every second is brilliant. The performances are mostly really, really good. But if someone wants to know what's filler, to my ears and tastes the answer is "Got to Know the Woman," "It's About Time," and "Tears In the Morning." And I don't much like "At My Window." And I think "Forever" isn't really much better. And "Slip On Through" and "Deirdre" are slightly better.

The only tunes on the album I really love--I mean really love, ones that I consider worthy of inclusion among the best of the band's output--are "This Whole World," "All I Wanna Do" and "Our Sweet Love." After that it's varying degrees of brilliantly produced mediocrity.
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« Reply #176 on: April 02, 2008, 05:30:28 PM »

I really appreciate your posts, Ana-Lu, just because Sunflower seems to be one of those albums onto which people here heap what I consider an excessive amount of praise.

As a work of engineering and production, I think virtually every second is brilliant. The performances are mostly really, really good. But if someone wants to know what's filler, to my ears and tastes the answer is "Got to Know the Woman," "It's About Time," and "Tears In the Morning." And I don't much like "At My Window." And I think "Forever" isn't really much better. And "Slip On Through" and "Deirdre" are slightly better.

The only tunes on the album I really love--I mean really love, ones that I consider worthy of inclusion among the best of the band's output--are "This Whole World," "All I Wanna Do" and "Our Sweet Love." After that it's varying degrees of brilliantly produced mediocrity.

Luther and Ana- Lu I agree with your sentiments, although I have a different choice of fillers. I can't stand Bruce's contributions and GTKTW. You can add Add Some Music to that list too. That song is ok to me about once every three months, anymore than that and I get sick of it. Forever is a good song, although I prefer the a capella version from Hawthorne.

Desper's work though, BRILLIANT.
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Ana-Lu
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« Reply #177 on: April 02, 2008, 06:33:37 PM »


Luther and Ana- Lu I agree with your sentiments, although I have a different choice of fillers. I can't stand Bruce's contributions and GTKTW. You can add Add Some Music to that list too. That song is ok to me about once every three months, anymore than that and I get sick of it. Forever is a good song, although I prefer the a capella version from Hawthorne.

Desper's work though, BRILLIANT.

I think I'm with you on your choices.  I basically like the first two tracks on side 1, and then most of side 2 after "Tears in the Morning."  ASM may be the most overrated song in their catalog. 
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Daniel S.
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« Reply #178 on: April 03, 2008, 08:39:24 AM »

I agree with you guys in the 'half is good and half is not so good' theory. But I got to tell you, songs like Deirdre, Tears In The Morning and Got to Know The Woman (shudder) are not only bad songs, the production is completely different then This Whole World, Slip On Through (I love that song) etc., to the point where they don't sound like "Sunflower" songs when people discuss the SOUND of Sunflower. They really are filler and not part of a cohesive piece of art.

By the way, I consider 'Cool Cool Water' to be the equal of 'This Whole World' and 'All I Wanna Do'. I haven't noticed anyone bashing it yet. The production is awesome on that song and its great to finally hear Brian's voice.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 08:40:23 AM by Heywood Floyd » Logged

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the captain
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« Reply #179 on: April 03, 2008, 01:22:17 PM »

By the way, I consider 'Cool Cool Water' to be the equal of 'This Whole World' and 'All I Wanna Do'. I haven't noticed anyone bashing it yet. The production is awesome on that song and its great to finally hear Brian's voice.

Well, I'm always available to step up and bash something otherwise beloved...

No, really I think it's fine. But it's not a favorite of mine at all. And the sound effects annoy me.
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« Reply #180 on: April 03, 2008, 05:31:20 PM »

By the way, I consider 'Cool Cool Water' to be the equal of 'This Whole World' and 'All I Wanna Do'. I haven't noticed anyone bashing it yet. The production is awesome on that song and its great to finally hear Brian's voice.

Well, I'm always available to step up and bash something otherwise beloved...

No, really I think it's fine. But it's not a favorite of mine at all. And the sound effects annoy me.

Cool, Cool Water is my favorite song on the album. I had actually heard it a for the first time a few months before I bought Sunflower, and thought it was a SMiLE track (this was before I'd heard any of the bootlegs). Turns out only part of it was from SMiLE, but I still sometimes include it in my SMiLE mixes, just because the hammering in Workshop makes a perfect segue into the drums at the beginning of CCW. I initially didn't like Bruce's songs, but the entire album has grown on me. I would've added Soulful Old Man Sunshine to the album, though. With the exception of SDT and Disney Girls from Surf's Up, I can listen to every BB album from Sunflower through Holland without skipping any tracks.
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« Reply #181 on: April 03, 2008, 06:16:50 PM »

As I mentioned in a previous post, when I became a Beach Boys' fan in the mid/late 1970's, I couldn't find Sunflower. It was either out of print or my local record store wasn't hip enough to carry it. But I read a few glowing reviews in some books, and I had to have it. I eventually had a record store order it as an import - and I paid for it!

I like Sunflower; it's a good album. Maybe a very good album. But I think it falls short of greatness. Yes, it is the most "group" Beach Boys' album. And, yes, Brian was involved, although I question just HOW MUCH or HOW LONG he was involved. But don't forget, this debut album with their new record company was originally rejected, which would become a trend.

When I listened to the first three songs - "Slip On Through", "This Whole World" and "Add Some Music" - I thought, "Wow, this IS awesome".

But then things started to fade a bit. "Got To Know The Woman", "Deidre", "It's About Time", and "Tears In The Morning" didn't measure up to the first three. OK songs but didn't blow me away.

"All I Wanna Do", "Forever", and "Our Sweet Love" are excellent songs, not filler, although "Our Sweet Love" does remind me of a re-cycled "God Only Knows".

So right now the album was a little up and down, and I looked forward to the last two songs. "At My Window" is a tough one. It's charming and I love the tag, but these bird watching, going out in the grass, looking at the sky songs are things that Brian could churn out in a minute. Cute but not overwhelmingly great.

Which is what I think about "Cool Cool Water". I know I'm SUPPOSED to love it, but I find it slightly boring. I do love the water chant, and I spliced it out to use on my SMiLE mixes. The harmonies are also impressive, but the song doesn't really go anywhere. It's like a part is missing that Brian never wrote or completed.

I like Sunflower a lot. I always enjoy it. But I like all Beach Boys' albums a lot. To me, Sunflower is on a par with Surf's Up, CATP, and Holland. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. But I never viewed Sunflower as The Beach Boys' Sgt Pepper....
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« Reply #182 on: April 03, 2008, 06:39:47 PM »

No, really I think it's fine. But it's not a favorite of mine at all. And the sound effects annoy me.

Luther, I agree. Those sound effects really bug me too. I think if Cool Cool Water hadn't included the last minute or so (ie: from "From the mountains on down to the sea" onwards) then it would've been so much better
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« Reply #183 on: April 03, 2008, 08:30:40 PM »

Only songs I don't care for are Add some Music(pretty, but goes on forever, dumb lyrics) and the horrible, totally out of place Tears in the Morning.  I still like it though. The rest of the songs are great. I love the Dennis Wilson songs, and well just about everything. Especially the sound. 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 11:52:04 PM by lance » Logged
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« Reply #184 on: April 03, 2008, 08:51:49 PM »

'At My Window' like 'In The Back of My Mind' is a paranoid schizophrenic song, especially when the strings build up and we hear Al sing 'He Came To My Window...(and then Brian JUMPS IN REPEATING) HE CAME TO MY WINDOW followed by the whole group singing HE CAME TO MY WINDOW and then 'FROM THEIR EYES' and a discordant piano and then the tag of 'Fly Away'. Beautiful creepy stuff. And a catchy tune.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 08:53:26 PM by Heywood Floyd » Logged

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« Reply #185 on: April 03, 2008, 09:26:43 PM »

I have to be a hold out and say I love this album. Tears isn't a great song (the bootleg version is better) but I don't dislike anything but the piano solo at the end. The rest of the LP to me is dynamite. Brian and Dennis do some of their best stuff here. Actually they all do some of their best stuff. The vocals are truly magnificent.
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« Reply #186 on: May 16, 2008, 05:47:56 PM »

Five. Best BB album not named Pet Sounds.

Best to worst:
All I Wanna Do
This Whole World
Cool Cool Water
Slip on Through
Forever
Our Sweet Love
Add Some Music To Your Day
Deirdre
Tears in the Morning
It's About Time
At my Window
Got to Know the Woman
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« Reply #187 on: June 14, 2008, 03:18:00 PM »

I can´t say enough good things about this album!

I love the production, singing, songwriting.. The only tracks I would change  is "At my window" and "All I wanna do" which I´ve always thought should have been replaced with "San Miquel", "Susie Cincinatti", Good times or "Games too can play".

First I was kinda bugged that Brian didn´t sing more lead vocals on the album, but you can clearly hear him singing harmony in almost every song. Cheesy


For me this is right up there with Pet Sounds, Today and Summer Days
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« Reply #188 on: June 19, 2008, 06:29:00 PM »

One of my favorite albums.  I always find it harder to say stuff on the stuff I really like, so I'll end it there.

Slip On Through - 5/5
This Whole World - 5/5
Add Some Music To Your Day - 5/5
Got To Know The Woman - 4.5/5
Deirdre - 5/5
It's About Time - 4.5/5
Tears In The Morning - 4.5/5
All I Wanna Do - 5/5
Forever - 5/5
Our Sweet Love - 5/5
At My Window - 5/5
Cool Cool Water - 5/5

Definitely 5 for me.
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« Reply #189 on: September 11, 2008, 11:40:48 PM »

I reckon Sunflower is one of the big factors in Mike's defence.  Without knowing his exact writing contribution, he does some great vocals on this album. He's in good voice throughout.
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« Reply #190 on: October 04, 2008, 09:43:11 AM »

I'll 5 star this one.  It's not *perfect* like Pet Sounds, but for my money, this is the best album between Pet Sounds and Love You.  I'd say this is pretty much on par with Love You.  Here's my ranking from favourite track to least favourite:

This Whole World (catchy as hell... I wish it were a little longer, but it's still outstanding)
Add Some Music (Took a while to grow on me, but now I *love* it... what a great song!)
All I Wanna Do (Breathtaking!  Satisfyingly peaceful and happy while also being haunting and psychedelic.)
Cool, Cool Water (Awesome suite-like piece)
At My Window (Cute song... just makes me smile.)
Slip on Through (Good album opener... great vocals from Denny)
Forever (Gorgeous song, but I don't think I like it quite as much as most BB fans)
Our Sweet Love (pleasant song, but it just doesn't quite do it for me...)
Deirdre (Would be higher, but the "I love your red hair" part makes me cringe every time)
It's About Time (Good li'l rocker, this)
Got to Know the Woman (I'm tempted to skip this one every time...)
Tears in the Morning (too long & grandiose for me... tries too hard to be all Pet Sounds epic-like)
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« Reply #191 on: October 05, 2008, 12:57:55 PM »

Geeze, you give away fives pretty easily considering your feelings on the songs. Any album where you want to skip one of the tracks and that's not even your least favorite song in the album should not have a five.
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« Reply #192 on: October 06, 2008, 02:26:21 PM »

Well, the album has charm.  So I'm willing to forgive a couple of minor hiccups.  The only BB albums I'd give 5 stars to are Pet Sounds, Smiley Smile, Sunflower and Love You.
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the captain
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« Reply #193 on: October 06, 2008, 04:21:09 PM »

I believe that's what they call grade inflation.
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« Reply #194 on: October 07, 2008, 02:13:11 PM »

In retrospect, I was a little harsher in my comments than I *truly* feel about it.  Like Got to Know the Woman, I may be *tempted* to skip it, but I usually do listen to it anyway and end up reveling in its corny goodness.  Our Sweet Love, I'm not really even sure what I meant by it not doing it for me... I guess it's not one of my favourites on the album, but again, it's a well-done song and pleasant to listen to.  Tears in the Morning is the only song on the album I actually truly don't like that much.  Dierdre, I like the song a lot, I just don't like the way Bruce sings that one line.

I think if I had an AMG-style scale, I'd give it a 4.5.  But overall on an integer scale I like it enough to give it a 5, so I stand by that rating!  And I don't think giving 4 BB albums 5 stars on a *Beach Boys fan site* constitutes grade inflation!
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the captain
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« Reply #195 on: October 07, 2008, 02:40:21 PM »

I think 5/5 implies perfection (or so close that you have to round upward). To each his own, but I don't find that many BBs albums that can claim that. If a person acknowledges flaws, doesn't that by definition pull the rating down away from perfection? Doesn't matter to me one bit--you can give them all 10/5 for all I care. Just a funny math.
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« Reply #196 on: October 08, 2008, 07:06:19 AM »

Ah, ok.  Well I guess in my opinion/scale, 5 means "excellent", 4 means "very good", 3 means "good", 2 means "fair" and 1 means "poor".  The only BBs album I think is *perfect* is Pet Sounds.  So I guess it would have to be at least "excellent" by definition.  But the other 3 albums I mentioned, while I don't believe they're perfect, I do believe they're excellent.  So I guess they fit as fives on my scale but not yours.  Again, to each his own.
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« Reply #197 on: October 18, 2008, 02:07:31 PM »

I think 5/5 implies perfection (or so close that you have to round upward). To each his own, but I don't find that many BBs albums that can claim that. If a person acknowledges flaws, doesn't that by definition pull the rating down away from perfection? Doesn't matter to me one bit--you can give them all 10/5 for all I care. Just a funny math.
By that logic my favorite album of all time, the White Album by the Beatles, would get about a 3.5 in my book. Screw that. I'll give it a five.

Good albums are often greater than the sum of the individual songs. Rating songs is fine, but it does not follow that the rating for the whole album must or even should be a mathematical average of those individual songs and if it's higher than that it is "grade inflation".
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 02:10:02 PM by lance » Logged
the captain
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« Reply #198 on: October 18, 2008, 06:49:38 PM »

I don't recall starting--or continuing--in the song-ranking. I don't care. At all. And if you want to rate some album with half mediocre songs as a 5/5, do it. If you want to rate an album with not a single good song a 6.75/1.993, do it. Please note that I already said I didn't care. I continue to not care.
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« Reply #199 on: October 19, 2008, 02:35:48 AM »

Well, I am not saying that you care. Nor was I accusing you of song-ranking(I would never accuse anybody of such a horrible crime against humanity without a LOT of evidence, believe you me.)

 I am saying that the logic your post was founded on is not necessarily correct. (And one would wonder what made you tell the poster that in the first place?)
 Again, to repeat my point, there are plenty of great albums on which not every song is great. The White Album is themost glaring example of that. I think it's perfectly fine to rate an album with a "perfect" five, while rating, say, Wild Honey Pie alone at about 1.5. (The whole number rating system is a bit absurd, of course, but it is a convenient shorthand for communicating how you feel about a certain...thing. Song. Work of art. Whatever.)



If we can agree that an album can be greater than the sum of its parts, then your post is wrong. If, however, you believe an album is only the sum of its parts,  then we disagree.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 02:42:32 AM by lance » Logged
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