brianwilson.com - New TLOS VIdeo

[Amy B.]

One reason why I asked why we were comparing them is because it's not really fair. When Paul does a poor job, it's possibly because of laziness or carelessness. When Brian does a bad job, it's also possibly because of laziness or carelessness... or because he's got brain damage...or because he's mentally ill... or because, as some argue, other people are actually doing most of the work.

So it's complicated. I'm not trying to make excuses for Brian, but I bring up the peaks of his work because I think, considering all of the above, they're remarkable. And I think TLOS is remarkable, because it's an attempt to be more than just another album. It's this "longform work" with themes running through it. Paul's most recent album apparently has a theme too, but I just think Paul has fewer excuses when it comes to doing less than stellar work.

[TdHabib]

Well, Brian was still recording with the Beach Boys during the first 15 years of Paul McCartney's solo career... and much of that period, Brian wasn't putting much of his written material on Beach Boys albums.

But a comparison of the two gents from 1988 to the present... a lot of weak cuts on both sides. Paul has probably had stronger moments in all, and sure his voice sounds youthful. But I like the 1988 album, Orange Crate and the Wilson/Paley lineup a whole ton. From 1988 on, I can't think of one McCartney album that I like all the way through. Not even close. But that's just me.

Here's my side by side comparison:
BW: Brian Wilson-Like almost all of the songs, pretty good singing, inconsistant production (I like "Let it Shine" and "Melt Away," dislike a number of another cuts) A-
MACCA: Flowers in the Dirt-Like almost all of the tunes, some real Macca classics; not my favorite production, but "We Got Married" is killer in all respects. A-
MACCA: Off the Ground-not as good as the previous, 40% filler, I don't dislike the production. B
BW & VDP: Orange Crate Art-superb A
MACCA: Flaming Pie-gorgeous A
BW: Imagination-horrible mixing, I don't care for the production, 70% good songs, pretty good vocals, a B-
MACCA: Driving Rain-very good A-
BW: BWPS-goes without saying that I love A
MACCA: Chaos and Creation in the Back Yard-a letdown for me, dilslike a lot of it with the exception of "Fine Line," "How Kind of You" and "Too Much Rain," but not offensive C+
BW: GIOMH-good material all around, I don't like the singing on everything but the title track, "Desert Drive," "City Blues" and "Fairy Tale," and much of the production is not my cup of tea ("DLOHNSAA"). C
MACCA: Memory Almost Full-my favorite Macca album since Tug of War, A
BW: TLOS (based on the demos and live recordings)-Brian's best material since BW 88, and probably the best overall album since The Beach Boys Love You. A

Just my two penny worth. I'd also like to apologize for derailing this thread, if it ruffled anyone's feathers...

[sunflower]

Well, besides Bob Dylan, name me one big artist from the '60s era that is doing anything interesting?

McCartney, Memory Almost Full was superb and a minor hit.

Yes. A brilliant album if you ask me.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Here's my side by side comparison:
BW: Brian Wilson A-
BW & VDP: Orange Crate Art A
BW: Imagination B-
BW: GIOMH C

TdHabib, I respect your opinion, and I also enjoy your posts, but, as far as these grades are concerned, in the words of Michael Edward Love, "You're too kind...."

[NightHider]

However, these (new) melodies just don't sound like BW written material to me.

These TSOL songs are nice but they just don't sound like Brian's work  Maybe BW is getting older/more mature or maybe someone thought it better not to mention someone else was at the helm for a majority of this work.  I'm thinking the latter.

Until then, I am going to put in Orange Crate Art - BW's previous 'Ode to California' album.

Umm...you are aware that Brian didn't write any of the songs on Orange Crate Art, right?

Absolutely.  And as I understand it, BW arranged the background harmonies and vocals and then recorded them all in just SEVERAL HOURS in a SINGLE afternoon.  I think he works very quickly and with little effort when working with VDP and I actually consider VDP an unofficial member of the BB.  I think the VDP 'wordplay' inspires Wilson and it shows in the enthusiam BW sings those lyrics with on OCA.  I think TLOS would have turned out more 'top shelf' had it been a full on  BW/VDP effort.  Would really love to see them work together again on a new project.  I think VDP, in any aspect(composing, arranging, lyrics), is more in the league of folks who should be collaborating with Wilson these days, but I am sure VDP commands a larger paycheck than collaborators from the Wondermints....and with good reason....  

By the way, what ever happened to the BW/ Burt Bacharach collaboration I heard about some time ago?  What happened to the rock n' roll album BW was talking so much about about a cupla years ago?

[mikeyj]

By the way, what ever happened to the BW/ Burt Bacharach collaboration I heard about some time ago?  What happened to the rock n' roll album BW was talking so much about about a cupla years ago?

As for the Rock and roll album, well I'm not too sure anybody knows anything about that, other than the fact that it's probably not going to happen. As for the Bacharach collaboration, I'm pretty sure it was just the one track that was released on the New Music From And Old Friend album called "What Love Can Do"

[Amy B.]

[And as I understand it, BW arranged the background harmonies and vocals and then recorded them all in just SEVERAL HOURS in a SINGLE afternoon.  

Actually, VDP arranged everything and simply told Brian what to sing. This was confirmed by Van Dyke himself on the blueboard a couple of years ago and again on the blueboard by a blueboarder who had recently had a chat with Van Dyke. The thing that has amazing VDP all these years is how quickly Brian was able to learn the parts and then record them, one by one, in a very short period of time.

[Swamp Pirate]

Look, I'll agree with the proposition that BW88, Imagination, and GIOMH weren't produced very well.  

But WIRWFC and Smile?  I strongly disagree.  And based on what I've heard, TLOS looks very promising as well.

As for the songs, again not to belabor the point, but I strongly believe there's enough strong songs that you could put together a very good compiliation of Brian's solo music.

Let's Go to Heaven In My Car

BW 88:  Love and Mercy, Melt Away, Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight, Rio Grande

IJWMFTT: Do It Again, This Song Wants to Sleep With You Tonight

OCA:  Orange Crate Art, Sail Away

Imagination: Your Imagination, She Says That She Needs Me, South American, Lay Down Burden, Cry

Live at the Roxy: This Isn't Love

BWPS: Caroline, No, I'm Waiting for the Day

GIOMH: Gettin' In Over My Head, City Blues, Desert Drive

Smile: Good Vibrations, Gee/Heroes & Villians, Surf's Up, Song for Children/Children is the Father of the Man

WIRWFC: The First Noel, Christmasy, What I Really Want for Christmas

What Love Can Do

TLOS: That Lucky Old Sun/Morning Beat, Midnight's Another Day, Going Home, Southern California

Bonus: It's Not Easy Being Me, Proud Mary, Spirit of Rock and Roll (non-Hallmark version)

Again, 30 plus quality, good songs.  Considering Brian's career has been marred by fits and starts  combined with the damage Gene Landy did, I think he's done pretty damn good.   Does it stand up to what Brian did with the Beach Boys?  Of course not.  Does the bulk of McCartney's solo work stand up to what he did with the Beatles?  On balance, no.  But it doesn't lessen my listening experience to BW's and McCartney's solo work one iota.

[TdHabib]

Here's my side by side comparison:
BW: Brian Wilson A-
BW & VDP: Orange Crate Art A
BW: Imagination B-
BW: GIOMH C

TdHabib, I respect your opinion, and I also enjoy your posts, but, as far as these grades are concerned, in the words of Michael Edward Love, "You're too kind...."

What would your grades be, Sherriff?

[brianc]

BW: GIOMH-good material all around, I don't like the singing on everything but the title track, "Desert Drive," "City Blues" and "Fairy Tale," and much of the production is not my cup of tea ("DLOHNSAA"). C

I personally wish I had "Gettin' in Over My Head" and "Saturday Morning in the City" on a single. "Fairy Tale" is also very good. I also like "A Friend Like You," though I know many people find it to be cringe-worthy. The drums are great, the production very nice, and Paul's vocals bring a youth to it.

[brianc]

If I had to put my own BW solo comp out, it would include these:

BW 88:  Love and Mercy, Melt Away, Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight, Rio Grande

Being with the One You Love

This Could Be the Night (from the Harry Nilsson tribute)

IJWMFTT: Let the Wind Blow, This Song Wants to Sleep With You Tonight

OCA:  Orange Crate Art

In My Moondreams (from "Pulp Surfin'" on Del-Fi Records)

This Isn't Love (instrumental, from "Songs Without Words" on Windham Hill)

Imagination: Your Imagination, Lay Down Burden, Cry

GIOMH: Gettin' In Over My Head, Saturday Morning in the City, Fairy Tale

Smile: Do You Like Worms, Song for Childen/CIFOTM

WIRWFC: On Christmas Day

What Love Can Do

TLOS: Midnight's Another Day

Bonus: In the Night Time (from the '85 BW/Gary Usher sessions), Rainbow Eyes, "Country Feelin'" (from "Sweet Insanity"), It's Not Easy Being Me, Marketplace, Soul Searchin', Some Sweet Day (all from the 1995-96 Wilson/Paley sessions)

[Andrew G. Doe]

[And as I understand it, BW arranged the background harmonies and vocals and then recorded them all in just SEVERAL HOURS in a SINGLE afternoon. 

Actually, VDP arranged everything and simply told Brian what to sing. This was confirmed by Van Dyke himself on the blueboard a couple of years ago and again on the blueboard by a blueboarder who had recently had a chat with Van Dyke. The thing that has amazing VDP all these years is how quickly Brian was able to learn the parts and then record them, one by one, in a very short period of time.

Firstly, as the album took some three years to record, I seriously doubt that Van Dyke called Brian in for just one day: the vocal sessions were doubtless spread over several months.

As for who arranged the vocals, in an interview conducted at the time of release it was stated that Brian arranged the majority of the vocals in the studio.

[Amy B.]

[And as I understand it, BW arranged the background harmonies and vocals and then recorded them all in just SEVERAL HOURS in a SINGLE afternoon. 

Actually, VDP arranged everything and simply told Brian what to sing. This was confirmed by Van Dyke himself on the blueboard a couple of years ago and again on the blueboard by a blueboarder who had recently had a chat with Van Dyke. The thing that has amazing VDP all these years is how quickly Brian was able to learn the parts and then record them, one by one, in a very short period of time.

Firstly, as the album took some three years to record, I seriously doubt that Van Dyke called Brian in for just one day: the vocal sessions were doubtless spread over several months.

As for who arranged the vocals, in an interview conducted at the time of release it was stated that Brian arranged the majority of the vocals in the studio.

Okay then. Interesting. I should have clarified that this was what VDP told _me_ on the blueboard when I asked him who arranged the vocals. Maybe Van Dyke isn't being truthful or is remembering wrong, but that's what I was using as my source.

I'm not sure who claimed it was "one day." I've never heard that. Also, I don't know where "just a few hours," came from except that in an interview Van Dyke said it took a short time "and we still had time for Chinese chicken salad" or something. I would assume, from hearing about Brian laying down vocals for other people, that it was relatively fast.

[Swamp Pirate]

One of my favorite parts in Carlin's book was the passage about Brian coming in to sing on Orange Crate Art.  Before the first song, Brian wonders aloud what he was doing there and Parks tells him it's because he can't stand the sound of his own voice- which apparently made sense to Brian. 

[brianc]

I think the Chinese chicken salad quote was in reference to the recording of the SONG "Orange Crate Art," not the entire album.

[the captain]

As for who arranged the vocals, in an interview conducted at the time of release it was stated that Brian arranged the majority of the vocals in the studio.

Might that have been a "Brian's Back"-style piece of propaganda in an effort to move a few copies? It might generate more interest with critics and the public to say BW arranged all the vocal parts than to say he came in and sang Van Dyke's. Sort of how older reviews of later-period Beach Boys albums seemed to always overstate Brian's involvement?

[Andrew G. Doe]

[And as I understand it, BW arranged the background harmonies and vocals and then recorded them all in just SEVERAL HOURS in a SINGLE afternoon. 

Actually, VDP arranged everything and simply told Brian what to sing. This was confirmed by Van Dyke himself on the blueboard a couple of years ago and again on the blueboard by a blueboarder who had recently had a chat with Van Dyke. The thing that has amazing VDP all these years is how quickly Brian was able to learn the parts and then record them, one by one, in a very short period of time.

Firstly, as the album took some three years to record, I seriously doubt that Van Dyke called Brian in for just one day: the vocal sessions were doubtless spread over several months.

As for who arranged the vocals, in an interview conducted at the time of release it was stated that Brian arranged the majority of the vocals in the studio.

Okay then. Interesting. I should have clarified that this was what VDP told _me_ on the blueboard when I asked him who arranged the vocals. Maybe Van Dyke isn't being truthful or is remembering wrong, but that's what I was using as my source.

I'm not sure who claimed it was "one day." I've never heard that. Also, I don't know where "just a few hours," came from except that in an interview Van Dyke said it took a short time "and we still had time for Chinese chicken salad" or something. I would assume, from hearing about Brian laying down vocals for other people, that it was relatively fast.

One of the joys of being a BB fan/researcher/geek/whatever - the same people remember a situation differently down the years. Won't say who, but I've had someone ream me out (in public) for quoting them, claiming they'd never, ever said that. So I played them the tape of me interviewing them some years earlier.  Happy days... 

[Roger Ryan]

By the way, what ever happened to the BW/ Burt Bacharach collaboration I heard about some time ago?  What happened to the rock n' roll album BW was talking so much about about a cupla years ago?

As for the Rock and roll album, well I'm not too sure anybody knows anything about that, other than the fact that it's probably not going to happen. As for the Bacharach collaboration, I'm pretty sure it was just the one track that was released on the New Music From And Old Friend album called "What Love Can Do"

I tend to think TLOS is the "rock n' roll" album Brian's been talking about for years. I recall the interview he gave around '99 where he wanted to do a rock album with "big drums and big social themes". Well, I'm not sure whether the studio version of TLOS will have "big drums", but the big social themes seem to be a part of it and it certainly has a lot of rock elements in it (for Brian, anyway) including a little bit of his beloved "Proud Mary" embellishments!

[Amy B.]

I tend to think TLOS is the "rock n' roll" album Brian's been talking about for years. I recall the interview he gave around '99 where he wanted to do a rock album with "big drums and big social themes". Well, I'm not sure whether the studio version of TLOS will have "big drums", but the big social themes seem to be a part of it and it certainly has a lot of rock elements in it (for Brian, anyway) including a little bit of his beloved "Proud Mary" embellishments!

Maybe it was, originally. We're told (by AGD? Can't remember) that MAD was originally a rocker. Maybe Brian tried it and was reeled in by Scott (a wise decision in this case, IMO). Or maybe the rock and roll album is just Brian's stock answer to "what's next?"

[brianc]

Or maybe the rock and roll album is just Brian's stock answer to "what's next?"

You're catching on.

Brian wrote his best rock 'n' roll stuff in years on the Wilson/Paley sessions, 1995-96. That's where "Desert Drive," "In My Moondreams," "Soul Searchin'," "I'm Broke," "Chain Reaction of Love" and "Some Sweet Love" came from... all great cuts that harkened back to the type of rock 'n' roll that was cut in the pre-folk-rock/"Pet Sounds" environment.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Here's my side by side comparison:
BW: Brian Wilson A-
BW & VDP: Orange Crate Art A
BW: Imagination B-
BW: GIOMH C

TdHabib, I respect your opinion, and I also enjoy your posts, but, as far as these grades are concerned, in the words of Michael Edward Love, "You're too kind...."

What would your grades be, Sherriff?

BW88: B-
IJWMFTT: C
Orange Crate Art: D
Imagination: C
Live At The Roxy: B-
Pet Sounds Live: C-
GIOMH: D
BWPS: a fraud, no rating given. I give the SMiLE concerts an A+
WIRWFC: C

As I look over this list, I ask - what are the strong points, what is Brian hanging his hat on? It ain't the production; the production was the weak point(s). It wasn't the singing; Brian's lead singing is not good and the multi-layered backgrounds are annoying. Which leaves the songwriting. On almost all of the Beach Boys' albums, right through Love You, even MIU, Brian always had that "how did he write that" quality to his songs. Some charming, innovative melody or arrangement that made you just sit and wonder - and enjoy over and over. That quality, more than anything, is what I find missing in Brian's solo work. When I hear his solo songs, I KNOW what he's trying to do, which is usually trying to emulate his prior work. It just doesn't work. For me anyway.

So, I have a question for you. It's a long one: While we all know that album sales are not always a measure of the album's quality (I'm not debating that point), why do you think all of the above albums died a quick death, were heard by virtually no one, and probably aren't played very often today?

[brianc]

Because, like you said...

**When I hear his solo songs, I KNOW what he's trying to do, which is usually trying to emulate his prior work. It just doesn't work. For me anyway.**

Just apply that across the board as ageneral consensus. I mean, plus, he's an older artist, and people don't generally consider artists Brian's age to be a wellspring of cutting-edge material. Robert Wyatt is one of the exceptions, not the rule.

I mean, I can appreciate the good stuff, and I'm a big fan of the Wilson/Paley sessions, flawed as they might be. No one ever seems to write anything about them when I talk about it. But whatever. It's just that, if I was going to look for material that has the same tripped-out, breathy quality as Brian's mid-to-late-'60s material did, I would turn to Olivia Tremor Control or someone like that in the present.

[TdHabib]

Here's my side by side comparison:
BW: Brian Wilson A-
BW & VDP: Orange Crate Art A
BW: Imagination B-
BW: GIOMH C

TdHabib, I respect your opinion, and I also enjoy your posts, but, as far as these grades are concerned, in the words of Michael Edward Love, "You're too kind...."

What would your grades be, Sherriff?

Orange Crate Art: D

Not an OCA fan? Well, that's subjective because it is a very personal thing; I was in a special situation when I heard it for the first time and I still harbor the same memories. Also, I have a liking for Brian's mid-1990s, pre-Imagination vocals, which are an acquired taste (nasal, high (in more ways that one), single tracked).

[joe_blow]

[And as I understand it, BW arranged the background harmonies and vocals and then recorded them all in just SEVERAL HOURS in a SINGLE afternoon. 

Actually, VDP arranged everything and simply told Brian what to sing. This was confirmed by Van Dyke himself on the blueboard a couple of years ago and again on the blueboard by a blueboarder who had recently had a chat with Van Dyke. The thing that has amazing VDP all these years is how quickly Brian was able to learn the parts and then record them, one by one, in a very short period of time.

Firstly, as the album took some three years to record, I seriously doubt that Van Dyke called Brian in for just one day: the vocal sessions were doubtless spread over several months.

As for who arranged the vocals, in an interview conducted at the time of release it was stated that Brian arranged the majority of the vocals in the studio.

In that interview was it stated by Brian or VDP? Remember Brian could at the drop of the hat say he loved teh album then turn around and say he doesn't even remember it. I'd guess BW did some of the arrangements as they went along.

As for the rock and roll album...did anyone see teh interview he did around 2005 on CBC in Canada. He talked about the rock and roll album and named 5 or six songs that he had wriiten for of it. I can't recall the titles but none of them were those that will be included on TLOS.

[the captain]

While we're at it:


BW88: B
IJWMFTT: B- (I like the recordings more, but it's just covers)
Orange Crate Art: C
Imagination: C+
Live At The Roxy: B (See IJWMFTT)
Pet Sounds Live: C+ (See IJWMFTT, but it's wearing thin. Yes, they're very good. But come on...)
GIOMH: C--
BWPS: A+, sound can't be a fraud. If you wanted something other than what it is, it's your fault as the listener. 
WIRWFC: B