Cabinessence sequence done when? (Are verse vocals def. from 68?)

[leetwall97]

Lee... when and where was there ever a description of what was in part 2 of Surf's Up?

In regards to the proof...
BOOM! Directly from the Smile Sessions.
http://imgur.com/a/x7KIb

Genuine question. I remember Darian saying that Paul Mertens had asked Brian what he could recall about that part, and that Brian had said there were strings. That was supposedly why we got strings (a Mertens arrangement) in the live SMiLE in 2004. But I don't recall anything else ever about what else was supposed to have been in Part 2, much less concrete knowledge that Brian's solo piano recording was overdubbed to create part 2, and, even more specifically, that it was overdubbed with Hal drumming, trumpets and saxophones, and that there were also harps and horns that ended up not being used.

It was noted that the sweetening session was for the December 16th recording (which was Brian's demo). And the ending with Hal and the saxophones was a new recording.

Wait, so back to "Cabin Essence"; do we really still not know definitively whether Carl's lead is from the "Smile" sessions or the "20/20" sessions?

While Carl's voice didn't drastically change in those two years, his lead on the track always sounded more "1968-ish" to me than 1966.

Highly doubt it. I have a theory that explains my view.

The version they use of Iron Horse in the 20/20 version is incomplete. The "Who ran the Iron Horse?" vocals are missing an overdub (Brian's). That last overdub makes it sound 100 times better (Brian blends in with Mike's lead).

If they didn't have that, then I doubt the lead for the verses was from '66.

[soniclovenoize]

In regards to the proof...
BOOM! Directly from the Smile Sessions.
http://imgur.com/a/x7KIb

Where does it say it's Part Two or Second Movement? 

[leetwall97]

Where does it say it's Part Two or Second Movement?  

The session with the Drums and saxophones wasn't labeled but you can assume it was "Part Two" because of the Master numbers. I can't remember them specifically, but let's just say that Part One was master number 57076. The session with the saxophones was Master number 57077.

April version of Vegetables was never put together at least not by Brian.  He mixed some sections of the song but no finished song was edited and mixed out of all the sections recorded.  Please post the finished April version if you have access to something the rest of us don't, including Alan and Mark.

I bought the Look! Listen! Vibrate! Smile! book yesterday. I ran across an interview with Mike. Mike basically said that Brian never intended to release Vega-Tables as a single. He did all the publicity to confuse Capitol. They were always going to release H&V. Mike also said that Brian told capitol that he lost the H&V tapes, when actually Brian just stored them in his house. This all had something to do with the lawsuit. But that explains why the H&V tape boxes are empty.

Oh! And to keep this thread on track, I'd like to mention that the bootleg with the Cabin Essence order (Verse-Choruse-Tag-Chorus-Tag) is a compilation of acetates. I think the best reference to the order of Cabin Essence goes back to the account from the October Party where Brian played everyone some of his acetates. He presented them in a specific order:

• Do You Like Worms Part 1
• Grand Coolie Dam
• Iron Horse
• Barnyard
• Bicycle Rider

[Matt Bielewicz]

Ah, y'see, Lee... it's my opinion (and of course, that's all it is; I'm not pretending it's the cold hard truth or anything) that there are lots of possible other explanations for different master numbers like that. And not just the explanation that the January session is for Surf's Up part II. It could be all sorts of other things.

Brian often did remakes of songs. Lots of remakes, particularly during this period of his recording history (off the top of my head, think of all the different versions of 'Wonderful' recorded between Summer 66 and a year later). Different master numbers were racked up like I don't know what during the Good Vibrations sessions. The existence of a separate master number doesn't mean much, and certainly not something as specific as "this is a different master number from what we have come to know as part 1 of Surf's Up - therefore it must be the session for Part 2". It could have been for a complete track remake, or another section that wasn't used... we just don't know.

Someone (maybe Cam Mott) did say round these parts once that the session labelled as 'Part One' might not even necessarily have been specifically for Part One of the song Surf's Up at all, and that it was ambiguous that it WAS for that song... but perhaps that is old information and the link to Surf's Up for that session has now been proven. But even if that's wrong, that goes to show the level of uncertainty that exists around these sessions and their often spotty documentation. It's definitely a mistake to say 'we know of these sessions [a pile of session sheets], and these recordings [a pile of tapes] - so all we have to do is match one to the other'. There were lost sessions. There were undocumented sessions. There were sessions that took place, but the tapes are now gone for whatever reason: lost, erased, stolen.

Years ago, when I first got interested in SMiLE in the mid-90s, no-one except super-well-connected fans knew what 'I'm In Great Shape' was. There were lots of theories, one of which was that it was the 'Eat A Lot, Sleep A Lot' bridge from Vega-Tables, because it was a booted section that didn't seem to particularly belong to a known song and it clearly had a lyrical theme of physical well-being. But the theories were clearly wrong, as became clear to fans outside the innermost SMiLE circles in the late '90s when (part of?) I'm In Great Shape turned up in the H&V Humble Harv demo and then (some of?) the sessions for a more developed version of the track became available. THAT's the kind of mistake we could be making here. We have a session log for a Surf's Up session, and a lost recording for part of Surf's Up... so the session log must refer to the lost recording. Well, it ain't necessarily so.

In short, to assume that the Surf's Up session that doesn't directly match to any of the existing known recordings is the one for the recording we're also obviously missing — the backing track to part 2 of the song, from 'Are You Sleeping, Brother John' to the start of the final CIFOTM reprise ending — could well be a mistake. It's an attractive idea, and a seductive one, but there are other things it might have been and we can't make assumptions like that without further information. In my opinion, of course!

[leetwall97]

Hi Matt! Thanks for the opinions!

Brian often did remakes of songs. Lots of remakes, particularly during this period of his recording history (off the top of my head, think of all the different versions of 'Wonderful' recorded between Summer 66 and a year later).

Yeah, Brian rerecorded: Wonderful, Heroes and Villains, Vega-Tables, Wind Chimes, Child Is Father of the Man, and maybe Love to Say Dada counts. But these rerecords can be easily explained. Surf's Up being rerecorded... that needs an explanation, especially since the track wasn't finished in the first place.

But even if that's wrong, that goes to show the level of uncertainty that exists around these sessions and their often spotty documentation. It's definitely a mistake to say 'we know of these sessions [a pile of session sheets], and these recordings [a pile of tapes] - so all we have to do is match one to the other'. There were lost sessions. There were undocumented sessions. There were sessions that took place, but the tapes are now gone for whatever reason: lost, erased, stolen.

We gotta work with something.

Years ago, when I first got interested in SMiLE in the mid-90s, no-one except super-well-connected fans knew what 'I'm In Great Shape' was. There were lots of theories, one of which was that it was the 'Eat A Lot, Sleep A Lot' bridge from Vega-Tables, because it was a booted section that didn't seem to particularly belong to a known song and it clearly had a lyrical theme of physical well-being. But the theories were clearly wrong, as became clear to fans outside the innermost SMiLE circles in the late '90s when (part of?) I'm In Great Shape turned up in the H&V Humble Harv demo and then (some of?) the sessions for a more developed version of the track became available. THAT's the kind of mistake we could be making here. We have a session log for a Surf's Up session, and a lost recording for part of Surf's Up... so the session log must refer to the lost recording. Well, it ain't necessarily so.

I'm In Great Shape is the enigma of the Smile material (to me). What is it?! Not the Heroes and Villains section, but the other songs that were labeled I'm In Great Shape.

In autumn of 1966, Brian recorded Vega-Tables and recorded 2 chorus's for it (one fast with a kick drum, and the other slow with an organ and dishwashing sounds). That was labeled I'm In Great Shape.

In November, Brian goes into the studio to record I Wanna Be Around and Workshop. This was labeled I'm In Great Shape. Why??

It's the biggest mystery. I've figured out all of the 12 original songs on the track list except that.

[Don Malcolm]

Oh! And to keep this thread on track, I'd like to mention that the bootleg with the Cabin Essence order (Verse-Choruse-Tag-Chorus-Tag) is a compilation of acetates. I think the best reference to the order of Cabin Essence goes back to the account from the October Party where Brian played everyone some of his acetates. He presented them in a specific order:

• Do You Like Worms Part 1
• Grand Coolie Dam
• Iron Horse
• Barnyard
• Bicycle Rider

An intriguing data point, but hardly dispositive WRT the final order of "Cabinessence." It just bolsters the testimony of Anderle, Vosee etal that Brian was creating "feels" in the studio and figuring out which of 'em would go together. And he would play 'em for folks, which afforded them the opportunity to become invested in certain combinations that might not wind up that way at the end. It seems that a bit further in the fall of '66 (November, maybe?) Brian decided what went with what--though when he got back to H&V he clearly started trying a whole lot of things that were either new ideas, older sections that had been set aside, or snippets from those older sections.

It just seems that "Cabinessence" was abandoned at about 95% of completion due to some kind of contentiousness that ambushed it (and quite probably "Surf's Up" as well) in early/mid December. Clearly "Surf's Up" was not as far along in the production process, and that would certainly explain Brian taking another crack at it in January. Was it strings over a piano solo? Or just strings? Without the tape from that session, we would seem to be at an impasse as just how "Part 2" was envisioned at the time...

[soniclovenoize]

The session with the Drums and saxophones wasn't labeled but you can assume it was "Part Two" because of the Master numbers. I can't remember them specifically, but let's just say that Part One was master number 57076. The session with the saxophones was Master number 57077.

Hmmm, passing one's opinions and assumptions off as fact is a dangerous enterprise. 

Generally, separate parts of the same song did not have different master numbers unless they were broken off into new pieces or simply rerecorded from scratch.  Recording chronology suggests that if they were different sections of the same song recorded within one day apart, they have the same master number. 

[leetwall97]

Hmmm, passing one's opinions and assumptions off as fact is a dangerous enterprise.  

This was very constructive

Generally, separate parts of the same song did not have different master numbers unless they were broken off into new pieces or simply rerecorded from scratch.  Recording chronology suggests that if they were different sections of the same song recorded within one day apart, they have the same master number.  

It's enough for me. For my Smile mix, I'm going to recreate the 2nd and 3rd movements. I've got the vocals ready. In fact, I'd like to ask you a favor sonic; I've got the vocals to Surf's Up, but I want to bring certain elements of it up front. Specifically, I want to remix the 3rd Movements vocals. Could you isolate certain elements for me if I gave you the vocals?

An intriguing data point, but hardly dispositive WRT the final order of "Cabinessence." It just bolsters the testimony of Anderle, Vosee etal that Brian was creating "feels" in the studio and figuring out which of 'em would go together. And he would play 'em for folks, which afforded them the opportunity to become invested in certain combinations that might not wind up that way at the end. It seems that a bit further in the fall of '66 (November, maybe?) Brian decided what went with what--though when he got back to H&V he clearly started trying a whole lot of things that were either new ideas, older sections that had been set aside, or snippets from those older sections.

You seem pretty well rounded with the Smile story, Don. I'd like to hear your opinion on this:
In February, Brian, Dennis, Van and Michael Vosse went into the studio for a Surf's Up session.
What do you think this was for?

[The Old Master Painter]

Fellow Smile-ologists; is it unanimously agreed upon that- in fact- the December 16th, 1966 recording of "Surf's Up" is indeed a demo?
Also; a further inquiry—if sectional-overdubs for "Part 2" of "Surf's Up" were indeed recorded on top of Brian's "demo," wouldn't Brian have made an acetate of this recording?
My memory now drifts back—recalling what Siegel had written concerning "Surf's Up,"- noting that Brian played him an acetate-recording of this particular song... but was this merely an acetate recording of the December 16th "demo" or something entirely different?
To ensue further—are some-; or all(!)- of the alleged "missing" Smile-recordings are on acetate-records; since the tapes are lost(?)? We are aware of Brian's habit of cutting acetates of his Smile recordings, so the possibility isn't ruled out—is it?

[The Old Master Painter]

*grabs popcorn*

[leetwall97]

Fellow Smile-ologists; is it unanimously agreed upon that- in fact- the December 16th, 1966 recording of "Surf's Up" is indeed a demo?
Also; a further inquiry—if sectional-overdubs for "Part 2" of "Surf's Up" were indeed recorded on top of Brian's "demo," wouldn't Brian have made an acetate of this recording?
My memory now drifts back—recalling what Siegel had written concerning "Surf's Up,"- noting that Brian played him an acetate-recording of this particular song... but was this merely an acetate recording of the December 16th "demo" or something entirely different?
To ensue further—are some-; or all(!)- of the alleged "missing" Smile-recordings are on acetate-records; since the tapes are lost(?)? We are aware of Brian's habit of cutting acetates of his Smile recordings, so the possibility isn't ruled out—is it?

I'll contact Alan about it. I remember reading that it was an overdub onto the December 16th track. I remember seeing those words.

[Don Malcolm]

An intriguing data point, but hardly dispositive WRT the final order of "Cabinessence." It just bolsters the testimony of Anderle, Vosee etal that Brian was creating "feels" in the studio and figuring out which of 'em would go together. And he would play 'em for folks, which afforded them the opportunity to become invested in certain combinations that might not wind up that way at the end. It seems that a bit further in the fall of '66 (November, maybe?) Brian decided what went with what--though when he got back to H&V he clearly started trying a whole lot of things that were either new ideas, older sections that had been set aside, or snippets from those older sections.

You seem pretty well rounded with the Smile story, Don. I'd like to hear your opinion on this:
In February, Brian, Dennis, Van and Michael Vosse went into the studio for a Surf's Up session.
What do you think this was for?

That is an unfamiliar date for a "Surf's Up" session which I am not finding in any version of the sessionography. Is there an actual date in February for it? According to Andrew's logs at Bellagio, the BBs were on the road for ten days that month (10th-19th) so it would seem to preclude Dennis being in the studio at that time. A "Surf's Up" February session is not logged there.

As for what such a session might have been about...hard to say. Did Brian really want someone else to sing lead? Did Vosse have some sound effects ready for Part 2? Were Brian and Van doing something to the piano sound? Assuming there was such a session--and for the moment it must remain speculative--there are any number of possible reasons that seem impossible to pin down...

[leetwall97]

You seem pretty well rounded with the Smile story, Don. I'd like to hear your opinion on this:
In February, Brian, Dennis, Van and Michael Vosse went into the studio for a Surf's Up session.
What do you think this was for?

That is an unfamiliar date for a "Surf's Up" session which I am not finding in any version of the sessionography. Is there an actual date in February for it? According to Andrew's logs at Bellagio, the BBs were on the road for ten days that month (10th-19th) so it would seem to preclude Dennis being in the studio at that time. A "Surf's Up" February session is not logged there.

As for what such a session might have been about...hard to say. Did Brian really want someone else to sing lead? Did Vosse have some sound effects ready for Part 2?

Amazing mentality, Don. Skeptical but still open for ideas. Great mindset.

It was on February 8th so it fits into the history. Here's a picture of them (Dennis and Vosse) in the Studio:
http://imgur.com/a/y6Gp8

Dennis on lead for Surf's Up. Hmmmm, it couldn't have been for the 1st movement. If Dennis was singing lead, I'd bet it was for either the 3rd or 2nd movement. The idea about sound effects with Vosse sounds realistic. It reminds me of those daily sounds Brian recorded on his portable. There was one where Brian took David to a bar and asked him to get in a fight with someone. That didn't happen, so maybe Brian wanted to recorded an improv of it in the studio (like he did with Hal and Michael on Vega-Tables).

Were Brian and Van doing something to the piano sound? Assuming there was such a session--and for the moment it must remain speculative--there are any number of possible reasons that seem impossible to pin down...

Another interesting point. We don't know how long the session was or if musicians were brought in. This must be one of those "undocumented sessions" that Matt pointed out earlier.

It was recorded at Columbia. Did Brian record instrumentals or Vocals there? That would give us a clue.

[CenturyDeprived]

There was one where Brian took David to a bar and asked him to get in a fight with someone. That didn't happen, so maybe Brian wanted to recorded an improv of it in the studio (like he did with Hal and Michael on Vega-Tables).
 

I wonder if the TM Song fight was an attempt at finally realizing this SMiLE-era whim of Brian's?

[Bicyclerider]

There was one where Brian took David to a bar and asked him to get in a fight with someone. That didn't happen, so maybe Brian wanted to recorded an improv of it in the studio (like he did with Hal and Michael on Vega-Tables).
 

I wonder if the TM Song fight was an attempt at finally realizing this SMiLE-era whim of Brian's?

There's a clip of Brian in the thread "Brian the comedian" where he's asked what makes him laugh.  He answers "arguments."

[Bicyclerider]

"Yeah, Brian rerecorded: Wonderful, Heroes and Villains, Vega-Tables, Wind Chimes, Child Is Father of the Man, and maybe Love to Say Dada counts. But these rerecords can be easily explained. Surf's Up being rerecorded... that needs an explanation, especially since the track wasn't finished in the first place."

The track not being finished could be the reason for a remake - he decided he didn't like how the track came out so of course didn't want to finish it, he wanted to do a remake.

There is no known February session for Surf's Up - where are you getting that information?

The master number for the Jan 23 session Surf's Up session is not sequential from the master track for the 1st movement recorded in October, so that is not proof that the Jan 23 session is the second movement or Part Two although it probably is.  The Jan 23rd session's master number is the next number after the sweetening track recorded immediately after and labeled "Part One."  If the sweetening (strings) track was to overdub strings onto the October session or the December solo session, it should have the same master number, which it doesn't.  Or if it was a string overdub on the just completed Jan 23 session.  The other interesting thing is that Brian has spoken about wanting strings on the second movement, which he did for BWPS - yet this string session is for a "Part One" NOT the second part/movement.

I realize we can't put all our faith in the master numbers revealing what was recorded and what it was recorded for because there is some randomness to the master number process, it's not always logical.  Heroes had three or four different master numbers at different times, if you include the "Part Two" number.  I do not believe Alan or Mark has ever said that the "Part One" string overdub was for the Dec 15 solo piano version - because the tape is missing, there is no way to know that.  It's certainly not impossible, we just can't know without the tape or more missing documentation. 

One possible scenario - the J 23 session was for a remake of either Part One or both parts, and then the string session overdub was for the Part One just recorded.  But why two different master numbers, with the overdub session getting the earlier number?

Another - Brian recorded the Dec 15 solo version, doubletracking his vocal which makes it unlikely it was just a "guide vocal" to be replaced later.  He may have decided at this point to junk the October tracking.  In January he decides to keep the solo version of Part One/1st movement and record a new track for Part Two/2nd movement, which he does on Jan 23rd.  To complete the song he overdubs strings onto the December 1st movement, giving the 1st movement a new master number one below the previously recorded Part Two.

The string overdub could be for another song altogether, although it's hard to imagine what song that could be. 

But remember, this is all just guesswork until the tapes turn up.

[The Old Master Painter]

So was there a February 8th session held—regardless of it being a "Surf's Up," session?

[The Old Master Painter]

So was there a February 8th session held—regardless of it being a "Surf's Up," session?

If so... what was this session held for?

[Bicyclerider]

No feb 8th session.  One on feb 7 for Heroes, one on feb 9 for Teeter Totter Love.

[The Old Master Painter]

No feb 8th session.  One on feb 7 for Heroes, one on feb 9 for Teeter Totter Love.

Thank you so much for such informative insight, Bicycle Rider

[c-man]

Bicyclerider - when you refer to the "October" version of "Surf's Up", I assume you mean "November" - as in the basic track was cut November 4th, and the horns were added November 7th.
As for the second January 23rd session - which was the string overdub - documentation clearly indicates that was for "Part One", so like you say, whether the first January 23rd session (with Carl, Hal, Lyle, Bill Pitman, plus trumpet and sax players) was for "Part Two" or a remake of "Part One" (onto which the strings were overdubbed that evening) is anyone's guess. You note that the Master # assigned for the evening session (57086) is sequentially lower than that of the afternoon session (57087)...interestingly enough, a similar thing happened with the November version...the November 4th basic track was assigned Master # 56842, while the horn session three days later is documented with the sequentially earlier Master # of 56841 (remember, this is the same piece of music, but with a horn overdub added)! To boggle the mind even more, the day AFTER the horn overdub session, the whole thing was re-assigned Master # 56850!

[c-man]

And, back to the original theme of the post - both Carl's "Cabinessence" lead and Dennis' "Truck Driving Man" part on the same song were definitely added in the fall of '68.

[Bicyclerider]

Bicyclerider - when you refer to the "October" version of "Surf's Up", I assume you mean "November" - as in the basic track was cut November 4th, and the horns were added November 7th.
As for the second January 23rd session - which was the string overdub - documentation clearly indicates that was for "Part One", so like you say, whether the first January 23rd session (with Carl, Hal, Lyle, Bill Pitman, plus trumpet and sax players) was for "Part Two" or a remake of "Part One" (onto which the strings were overdubbed that evening) is anyone's guess. You note that the Master # assigned for the evening session (57086) is sequentially lower than that of the afternoon session (57087)...interestingly enough, a similar thing happened with the November version...the November 4th basic track was assigned Master # 56842, while the horn session three days later is documented with the sequentially earlier Master # of 56841 (remember, this is the same piece of music, but with a horn overdub added)! To boggle the mind even more, the day AFTER the horn overdub session, the whole thing was re-assigned Master # 56850!

Yes thanks for correcting that October reference - November is correct!

So it does indeed seem we can't just go by the master numbers to suss out what things were done for what.  When were master numbers assigned?  It seems like if there was an afternoon and evening session, the master numbers might have been assigned only after the sessions for the day were finished, so it might make sense they assign a master number to the last finished piece, then the earlier, making them reverse sequential? 

[guitarfool2002]

And, back to the original theme of the post - both Carl's "Cabinessence" lead and Dennis' "Truck Driving Man" part on the same song were definitely added in the fall of '68.

Wasn't there an interview where Brian mentioned Dennis recording that rap from either late '66 or early '67? I can't remember where it is, but I do recall Brian mentioning something about how much Dennis liked doing that part...or something along those lines. I don't think that comment was from 1968. My memory is a little cloudy on that interview, heck it could have been Dennis' interview!

[guitarfool2002]

To clarify - and I may be getting these mixed up, it's been awhile - The Dennis quote about Truck Drivin Man is in the Preiss book, with no citation of the source or a time for that quote. But either I'm confusing two issues like the Dennis cupping his hands thing with WIBN, or I actually saw somewhere a Brian interview from 66-67 where he mentions Dennis and that part.