Cabinessence sequence done when? (Are verse vocals def. from 68?)

[c-man]

To clarify - and I may be getting these mixed up, it's been awhile - The Dennis quote about Truck Drivin Man is in the Preiss book, with no citation of the source or a time for that quote. But either I'm confusing two issues like the Dennis cupping his hands thing with WIBN, or I actually saw somewhere a Brian interview from 66-67 where he mentions Dennis and that part.

I think you're getting those two things mixed up - I recall the Dennis quote being in the Preiss book, as well - but for the life of me, I can't find it! Would you kindly share the page number?
And the Dennis cupping his hand thing on WIBN - I vaguely recall a Brian quote from '66 or '67 for that, but not sure where, either. I definitely recall a Brian quote from '96 or '97 on the same subject! 

[Ian]

I'll have a look in my archive

[c-man]

To clarify - and I may be getting these mixed up, it's been awhile - The Dennis quote about Truck Drivin Man is in the Preiss book, with no citation of the source or a time for that quote. But either I'm confusing two issues like the Dennis cupping his hands thing with WIBN, or I actually saw somewhere a Brian interview from 66-67 where he mentions Dennis and that part.

I think you're getting those two things mixed up - I recall the Dennis quote being in the Preiss book, as well - but for the life of me, I can't find it! Would you kindly share the page number?
And the Dennis cupping his hand thing on WIBN - I vaguely recall a Brian quote from '66 or '67 for that, but not sure where, either. I definitely recall a Brian quote from '96 or '97 on the same subject! 

Speaking of Dennis, Cabinessence and the Preiss book...on page 93 of the original edition, Preiss describes the song as such: "for which Dennis was to have recorded the lead vocal."

[Jay]

Forgive me if this was asked and answered before, but were the "have you seen the grand coolie", and "over and over the crow cries" lines of original 1966-67 vintage, or were they 1968 overdubs?

[Bicyclerider]

Forgive me if this was asked and answered before, but were the "have you seen the grand coolie", and "over and over the crow cries" lines of original 1966-67 vintage, or were they 1968 overdubs?

recorded in 1966.

[guitarfool2002]

To clarify - and I may be getting these mixed up, it's been awhile - The Dennis quote about Truck Drivin Man is in the Preiss book, with no citation of the source or a time for that quote. But either I'm confusing two issues like the Dennis cupping his hands thing with WIBN, or I actually saw somewhere a Brian interview from 66-67 where he mentions Dennis and that part.

I think you're getting those two things mixed up - I recall the Dennis quote being in the Preiss book, as well - but for the life of me, I can't find it! Would you kindly share the page number?
And the Dennis cupping his hand thing on WIBN - I vaguely recall a Brian quote from '66 or '67 for that, but not sure where, either. I definitely recall a Brian quote from '96 or '97 on the same subject! 

Speaking of Dennis, Cabinessence and the Preiss book...on page 93 of the original edition, Preiss describes the song as such: "for which Dennis was to have recorded the lead vocal."

Yes, and I'm pretty sure that was sourced from the Michael Vosse "Fusion" piece 10 years prior. Vosse reported the same thing, that Cabinessence was to have been Dennis singing lead.

In my copy of Preiss, the Dennis quote is on page 59.

[Jay]

Forgive me if this was asked and answered before, but were the "have you seen the grand coolie", and "over and over the crow cries" lines of original 1966-67 vintage, or were they 1968 overdubs?

recorded in 1966.

As soon as I hit the "send" button I remembered the famous(infamous?) story of Mike questioning the particular lyric about the crows.  Oops.

[guitarfool2002]

I just took a look at the Vosse piece again to confirm, and he says Cabinessence was going to be "a wholly different trip" than what we got on 20/20. Dennis singing by himself to his girl by a fireplace, supposed to be set somewhere up in the mountains, "very simple" according to Vosse. Then "Who Ran The Iron Horse" was a separate piece which "Bicycle Rider" was going to be a part of, about the Chinese workers on the railroads with the crow cries lyrics.

It's interesting because I can hear Dennis' singing even in the Carl lead vocal which everyone knows, and can picture Dennis' voice doing that lead to a "T" because it sounds like him, phrasing and even tonal quality in some places. Make it more interesting by imagining it as Vosse remembered these as separate parts, and there is Dennis as a lone voice singing to his girl in the mountains about giving her a home on the range, the simple mountain or pioneer life of the 1850's let's say...then the railroads are being built by the Chinese laborers on Who Ran...and somewhere much later Dennis comes back as the narrator voice doing his rap, talking about seeing the truck driving men which was the result of everything that had happened from the time he sang that simple song somewhere up in the mountains and uncharted territory. And the Bicycle Rider theme is there to tie it together.

[Bicyclerider]

I'm not necessarily doubting Vosse's account but by Oct 3 Cabinessence was in its' 20/20 form, all three sections recorded and test edits apparently made, and Who Ran/Grand Coulee Dam/Bicycle Rider are no longer a separate song.  So when was Home on the Range its' own song?  Must have been August or September when all the above sections must have been written.  Bicyclerider was kicked out and recycled in Worms Oct 18th. 

Or did Vosse get confused by the acetate party in November (it was November, wasn't it) when Brian talked about shuffling sections around, THIS could go with THIS Or THIS could go with THAT but nothing definitive was planned for a WHo Ran/Dam/BR song.

[Don Malcolm]

I think it comes down to the fact that "Cabinessence" needed a tag. And though we don't know exactly how/when each piece was written, it surely does appear that Brian had figured out what made the song work best by the 10/3 session.

I also think he figured out that thematic sequence of--settlers-->railroad-->romantic affiirmation of settlers-->railroad/the escalating pace and alienation of modern transportation in the wake of progress-->??--would be more complete if the "Grand Coulee" section came in at the end, representing an outside look at the transfiguration of the American landscape.

Having a bicycle rider, a truck-driving man AND an iron horse in one song would have been overkill. And the story would be too abstract. Van Dyke's "crow cries" line is structured like the imagery sequences in Chinese poetry, and further lends itself to a wider, more impressionistic arrangement of musical instruments.

The version with Home on the Range, Iron Horse and Bicycle Rider still lacks a credible tag. The last two sections are too much alike in how they function, melodically and rhythmically, to work together in the same composition.

I think Brian proved this to himself when he put the backing vocals onto Iron Horse and Grand Coulee. That confirmed that the backing vocal arrangements in each would work as an augmentation, further trying together the two sections. The stumbling block for the song came when Mike sang the lead lines for Grand Coulee in December and began to question the lyrics.

[guitarfool2002]

I'm not necessarily doubting Vosse's account but by Oct 3 Cabinessence was in its' 20/20 form, all three sections recorded and test edits apparently made, and Who Ran/Grand Coulee Dam/Bicycle Rider are no longer a separate song.  So when was Home on the Range its' own song?  Must have been August or September when all the above sections must have been written.  Bicyclerider was kicked out and recycled in Worms Oct 18th. 

Or did Vosse get confused by the acetate party in November (it was November, wasn't it) when Brian talked about shuffling sections around, THIS could go with THIS Or THIS could go with THAT but nothing definitive was planned for a WHo Ran/Dam/BR song.

The deal with Vosse and that Fusion piece is that he really wasn't wrong about any of the Smile recordings he reported which were later found and available for us to actually hear. He's almost 99% or more on the money across the board. He even got the Inside Pop confirmed when the Oppenheim notes surfaced, and sure enough there was a segment filmed in the pool, mentioned in the notes, and confirming what Vosse reported. And no one else, no other source got that - Until Preiss, whose researchers used Vosse's Fusion piece as a primary source for the Smile descriptions.

Vosse wasn't in the loop in August, however I would say he was probably "there" as in next to Brian as much as anyone else in the Fall of 66 into 1967 until he left, and he would have been privy to many discussions and planning sessions Brian was having with these fragments and sections of music. Keep in mind too, "Bicycle Rider" turned up quite a few other places too, I think it was that way by design as a motif, at least at some points in the process.

But I take Vosse's word on these reports of the music and the plans and all of it as high as anyone else's. My point always is, show us where Vosse got it wrong in that Fusion piece and then we can challenge his words from that article. Everything there seems to be backed up by the actual recordings we have heard not to mention whatever plans came and went randomly, as happens in any recording process.

[ForHerCryingSoul]

I just took a look at the Vosse piece again to confirm, and he says Cabinessence was going to be "a wholly different trip" than what we got on 20/20. Dennis singing by himself to his girl by a fireplace, supposed to be set somewhere up in the mountains, "very simple" according to Vosse. Then "Who Ran The Iron Horse" was a separate piece which "Bicycle Rider" was going to be a part of, about the Chinese workers on the railroads with the crow cries lyrics.

It's interesting because I can hear Dennis' singing even in the Carl lead vocal which everyone knows, and can picture Dennis' voice doing that lead to a "T" because it sounds like him, phrasing and even tonal quality in some places. Make it more interesting by imagining it as Vosse remembered these as separate parts, and there is Dennis as a lone voice singing to his girl in the mountains about giving her a home on the range, the simple mountain or pioneer life of the 1850's let's say...then the railroads are being built by the Chinese laborers on Who Ran...and somewhere much later Dennis comes back as the narrator voice doing his rap, talking about seeing the truck driving men which was the result of everything that had happened from the time he sang that simple song somewhere up in the mountains and uncharted territory. And the Bicycle Rider theme is there to tie it together.

Based on Vosse I personally see this as a suite, not one track, like what turned out on 20/20:
Perhaps the form could be: Verses, Iron Horse/Bicycle Rider or Worms?, Coulee Dam, Truck Driving Man?

I know there are parts missing, but that seems like what Vosse is saying.

[Bicyclerider]

But Vosse is saying the verses were a separate song (Home on the Range) and the song was Who Ran/Bicycle Rider/Grand Coulee Dam.  Which doesn't make much of a song.  Unless the "verses" were the "this is a recording" lyric and "Truck Driving Man" over the Who Ran music/vocals, the break or chorus was Bicycle Rider and the tag Grand Coulee Dam.

[Ian]

I can't find the Dennis quote about Truck Driving Man-except for in Preiss-but I am sure he got it from a magazine interview.  But-as far as the Dennis vocal you discussed-it was Wouldn't It Be Nice.  Here's Brian discussing Wouldn't It Be Nice:  "One of the features of this record is that Dennis sings a special way, cupping his hands.  I had thought for hours of the best way to achieve the sound and Dennis dug the idea because he knew it would work."-the quote appears in the Hit Parader Yearbook from winter 66-67.

[guitarfool2002]

I can't find the Dennis quote about Truck Driving Man-except for in Preiss-but I am sure he got it from a magazine interview.  But-as far as the Dennis vocal you discussed-it was Wouldn't It Be Nice.  Here's Brian discussing Wouldn't It Be Nice:  "One of the features of this record is that Dennis sings a special way, cupping his hands.  I had thought for hours of the best way to achieve the sound and Dennis dug the idea because he knew it would work."-the quote appears in the Hit Parader Yearbook from winter 66-67.

Cool, I thought I may have been getting them mixed up. But it is frustrating when I swear I had read something and cannot find it! In this case I thought something was also reprinted in LLVS but I don't have the energy to wade through every page.

[guitarfool2002]

Or to add to it...I swore there was another quote somewhere specific to that Truck Drivin rap besides the quote in the Preiss book! If i happen to find it in passing I'll mark it better this time. 

[guitarfool2002]

For the discussion, here is exactly what Vosse said, Cabinessence description in the first paragraph and column.

[Ian]

yeah I looked through the Priore book but didn't find anything-that quote about Truck Driving Man is in the non-Stebbins bio of Dennis-Dumb Angel by Adam Webb but he doesn't footnote or attribute where he got the quote.  I may ultimately find it-but I have so many articles (In 10 separate books I compiled while doing my book) that it can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack

[The Old Master Painter]

So... any luck tracking down lost acetates?