SMiLE rarities

[Chris Brown]

I'm not aware of any AFM/session sheet that refers specifically to a 2nd movement of "SU".  The existance of this tape had been hotly debated for over 20 years. Current concensus seems to be - it was never recorded.

Thanks for posting that text - glad to know part of my memory still functions.

You just broke my heart. How did the fabled "2nd Movement" session get tied to that 1/23/67 session? Do you think something else was recorded or that session never took place?

While I'm at it are we sure the group vocal sessions for Look/I Ran and IIGS took place?

Thanks in advance!

Chris

The session has probably been suspected to be the "2nd Movement" because the first movement was already done, and I believe the title on the 1/23 session is just "Surf's Up".  Given the fact that a session took place and the musicians that were used, its easy to see how people might speculate that it was a session for the 2nd Movement.  Of course, since nothing has turned up in the 40 years since the sessions, I would suspect that either nothing was recorded (which, like Andrew said, is the current consensus) or whatever was recorded got scrapped.

As far as Look/I Ran and IIGS go, I'm not entirely sure, but I thought the consensus there was that (similar to 2nd Movement of Surf's Up) there were sessions at which either nothing got recorded or vocals WERE recorded but Brian wiped the tapes later on.  Obviously nothing has ever surfaced vocal-wise for those, so its anybody's guess.

[Bicyclerider]

There are lots of tapes missing from the BB tape archive - it doesn't mean they weren't recorded!  It just means they're missing - wiped (which would be more likely in terms of vocal sessions than instrumental sessions) or misplaced (lost at Columbia most likely).  Alan Boyd has remarked on the number of empty tape boxes from the SMile sessions, and the infamous photo of the "Dumb Angel" tape which is now lost.  So I wouldn't write off this session as never having been recorded - if the session was cancelled wouldn't that be noted on the AFM sheet?

Now whether the session was for the 2nd movement is something that can never be answered without the tape I guess.  It could have been an overdub session for the December piano demo, a rerecord of the 1st movement, overdubs on the 1st movement, or the Surf's Up title could be incorrect - like the Great Shape title on the I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night tape box.

[shelter]

I think the '71 version is just excellent. I don't see how a full '67 version could've been much better...

[Roger Ryan]

I think the '71 version is just excellent. I don't see how a full '67 version could've been much better...

If Brian intended to have full group vocals behind his lead during the first movement (like in the BWPS version), then that '67 version would have been fantastic.

[Chris Brown]

I think the '71 version is just excellent. I don't see how a full '67 version could've been much better...

I like the '71 version too, but I would much prefer a '67 version with Brian doing the lead throughout, group vocals during the first movement (as Roger said above) and a more orchestrated second movement. 

[Mahalo]

I think the '71 version is just excellent. I don't see how a full '67 version could've been much better...

I like the '71 version too, but I would much prefer a '67 version with Brian doing the lead throughout, group vocals during the first movement (as Roger said above) and a more orchestrated second movement. 

There is little doubt in my mind that there are genuine SMiLE rarities that exist, not having been booted and widely circulated. Maybe it's just a hunch or wishful thinking, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if tapes exist on the down low. Also, who knows what if any work was done on the music when they initially signed with Warner Bros..

I think that Brian would've layed down a fuller vocal texture in the 1st movement of SU had it been recorded in 67....while 71 is cool, Carl's lead seems weird...IMO

[Andrew G. Doe]

Also, who knows what if any work was done on the music when they initially signed with Warner Bros.

I was told by Steve Desper that he & Carl listened to the tapes, made safety copies and returned them to the vaults. The only 'further' work done was the piecing together of "Surf's Up" and the use of the water chant  on "Cool, Cool Water".

[Chris Moise]

I guess the fact that they didn't find a 2nd movement backing track in '71 speaks volumes. If it existed in '67 I assume it would've still be there in '71 (unless BW burned that session..)

Anyone have any thoughts on whether Van Dyke wrote verse lyrics for CITFOTM in '66? If so any evidence they were recorded?

[Jason]

I think that Brian would've layed down a fuller vocal texture in the 1st movement of SU had it been recorded in 67....while 71 is cool, Carl's lead seems weird...IMO

Yeah, Carl does sound like he had a few beers before he laid down the vocals. In fact, wasn't it Desper who offered that anecdote in a previous post? Maybe I'm confusing it with another song.

[Bicyclerider]

When Jon Hunt asked Van Dyke (before BWPS) whether he wrote lyrics for Child, he answered yes - but didn't elaborate on whether he had written verse lyrics or just the chorus (one line - child is father to the man).  It seems unlikely to me that he would have just written the title/one line and not verse lyrics - but if he did, the lyrics must have been lost since the lyrics to BWPS Child Van Dyke confirmed were new and not 67 vintage.

I remember Desper writing on the smileshop board that Carl did try to do a couple of overdubs on the Smile tapes besides the recreation of Cabinessence and Surf's Up, but he wasn't specific and said Carl soon abandoned the idea.  If he did those overdubs on the eight track comp tapes he and Stephen put together, I'm not sure we would know what is a 71-72 overdub and what was original to the 67 tapes, since much of Smile is only present on these comp tapes, the original multitracks are missing.

[Mark H.]

All the answers are in a box under some old clothes in Durrie Park's basement! 

[Sheriff John Stone]

When Jon Hunt asked Van Dyke (before BWPS) whether he wrote lyrics for Child, he answered yes - but didn't elaborate on whether he had written verse lyrics or just the chorus (one line - child is father to the man).

Which is what bothers me about Van Dyke Parks. Thanks, Van Dyke, don't tell us what you know. Keep the/your myth alive. I know a secret and I'm not telling....

[Jason]

The myth will never die.....it's like the Energizer bunny.

You know the rest.

But yeah, Van Dyke's a little weird when it comes to discussing his contributions to Smile. Even Beautiful Dreamer did VERY little to inform us further. I suppose there are just things about Smile that we're just never going to find out. Perhaps it's for the best.

It's for the best because it makes great discussions, even in these post-BWPS days.

[Chris Moise]

All the answers are in a box under some old clothes in Durrie Park's basement! 

I can't understand why they can't aquire the Durrie Parks acetates. IIRC Alan Boyd has said here that they want to purchase any unheard Smile material. Obviously they know Durrie has the acetates right? Why can't they work something out? Didn't Durrie tell someone on the old Shop she planned on going through that stuff?

[Dan Lega]

All the answers are in a box under some old clothes in Durrie Park's basement! 

I can't understand why they can't aquire the Durrie Parks acetates. IIRC Alan Boyd has said here that they want to purchase any unheard Smile material. Obviously they know Durrie has the acetates right? Why can't they work something out? Didn't Durrie tell someone on the old Shop she planned on going through that stuff?

I guess the simple reason they haven't got Durrie Park's acetates is because it is going to cost a pretty penny to get them.  And who's going to pay?  Capitol isn't planning a SMiLE box set, so they won't pay because there is no way to get their money back.  Maybe, just maybe now that the lawsuits are mostly over the three of them (plus Carl's heirs) will finally agree to releasing some old tapes?  Maybe Mike and Al and Brian will go into the studio and add vocal tracks to SMiLE instrumentals?  Maybe they'll all tour together?  However, I'm not expecting any of this to happen.  I did expect a SMiLE box set and even a reunion tour with all surviving Beach Boys to tour doing SMiLE within the first year or two after Brian released his new SMiLE.  But since didn't happen, and since the Beach Boys Store never opened I'm not expecting anything anymore really.  News of the Denny double disc really took me by surprise, and is a great development.  But I'm not getting my hopes up for any more stuff like it.

Love and merci,   Dan Lega

[Mark H.]

The odd thing is...they interviewed her for Beautiful Dreamer if I recall...right?  The first question I would have asked...."Don't you have some acetates from the original Smile sessions?  Did you ever consider sharing them with Brian & Co.?"

Why didn't someone ask...or have they inquired and been told it's gonna cost some money.

I would assume that Brian is done with Smile and it's only the historical nut cases that care.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I guess the simple reason they haven't got Durrie Park's acetates is because it is going to cost a pretty penny to get them. 

I don't know if it is true that Durrie Parks, A) has SMiLE acetates in her possession, or, B) would charge a pretty penny for them.

But, if she has them, I really hope she wouldn't charge a lot for them. There is just something wrong about that. Oh, I know I'm being naive by taking that position. Greed is everywhere.  But it would still bother me very much if Durrie Parks, who did nothing to deserve even having them, would want to make a large profit off of them.

[Mark H.]

I guess the simple reason they haven't got Durrie Park's acetates is because it is going to cost a pretty penny to get them. 

I don't know if it is true that Durrie Parks, A) has SMiLE acetates in her possession, or, B) would charge a pretty penny for them.

But, if she has them, I really hope she wouldn't charge a lot for them. There is just something wrong about that. Oh, I know I'm being naive by taking that position. Greed is everywhere.  But it would still bother me very much if Durrie Parks, who did nothing to deserve even having them, would want to make a large profit off of them.

Were they part of her divorce settlement?  If so then she might see them as an investment in some way.

[Boiled Egg]

>>I guess the simple reason they haven't got Durrie Park's acetates is because it is going to cost a pretty penny to get them.<<

i just can't believe money is a big issue where something like Brian Wilson is concerned, especially when it's SMiLE.  

the surviving beatles and the estates of the late beatles, for example, had their home demos collated and safety copies made a few years ago - whether that was for anthology, i'm not sure - but all sorts of clank was dredged up: lennon doing endless rambling guitar versions of 'good morning, good morning' and great slews of other stuff that is of minimal (or, arguably, zero) interest commercially, but is worth preserving for the future for any number of reasons.  

in 200 years' time, BW's work will probably (sod it, i'd say, CERTAINLY) have the same kind of value that, say, beethoven's does today: i.e. artistically of the first order, and financially skyscraping.  beethoven, fortunately, scribbled on paper, which yellows and curls and dries out, but is preservable.  acetates deteriorate with every single playing, and tape oxidises and turns to splup and dust.  anyone seriously interested in BW's legacy (not just 'historical nutcases') ought, in all responsibility, to be tracking down every damn thing he did of any significance and archiving it.  

trouble is, of course, that it's difficult to persuade the living of the value of their work.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Were they part of her divorce settlement? 

You're kidding. I didn't know that's how she got 'em. I thought she just found them stashed away somewhere in the garage or closet.

That bothers me even more, that Van Dyke Parks would "bargain" or negotiate them away. What respect he showed for the music....

[Dancing Bear]

Were they part of her divorce settlement? 

You're kidding. I didn't know that's how she got 'em. I thought she just found them stashed away somewhere in the garage or closet.

That bothers me even more, that Van Dyke Parks would "bargain" or negotiate them away. What respect he showed for the music....

I THINK that when Smile memorabilia began to have a value in the market, the Parks had already divorced. I've read in more than one place that the money raised with the acetates will go to their daughter. So I GUESS it was how they amicably sorted it out years ago.

[Mahalo]

in 200 years' time, BW's work will probably (sod it, i'd say, CERTAINLY) have the same kind of value that, say, beethoven's does today: i.e. artistically of the first order, and financially skyscraping.  beethoven, fortunately, scribbled on paper, which yellows and curls and dries out, but is preservable.  acetates deteriorate with every single playing, and tape oxidises and turns to splup and dust.  anyone seriously interested in BW's legacy (not just 'historical nutcases') ought, in all responsibility, to be tracking down every damn thing he did of any significance and archiving it.  

Exactly....Not only on the Beethoven idea, but I don't trust Durrie with the acetates. They should be in a climate controlled vault after being duplicated by professionals.

Any living fan of Rock n' Roll knows how important this is....I just met a bunch of BB fan's today actually- However they probably don't know about any acetates. They raved about BWPS though. What I'm saying is there are more fans out there than I ever thought.

It's a grimy thing to charge a pretty pennie for something like that IMO....this would be a contribution in the name of art to the people of this world. She got the tapes through a divorce settlement. Maybe her hero is Heather Mills.....

[mikeyj]

From what I have read in this thread NO ONE has said that Durrie got them from a divorce settlement (notice Mark H. was just asking the question, not stating a fact):

Were they part of her divorce settlement?  If so then she might see them as an investment in some way.

Not saying it aint true, just I don't know why people are getting upset over it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

From what I have read in this thread NO ONE has said that Durrie got them from a divorce settlement (notice Mark H. was just asking the question, not stating a fact):

Ok, point taken. Just add "If Durrie obtained acetates through divorce....." before reading the posts that upset you. Emphasis on the word "if".

I think the bigger point(s) are, as someone above mentioned, that it would be nice if "unearthed" SMiLE rarities would be simply turned over FOR THE SAKE OF ART. And, as I mentioned, that they not be negotiated for large sums of money that could quelch a deal, and prevent us from hearing them.

[the captain]

What percentage of art is given to the public free of charge for the sake of art?