Who's Idea was it to put Sloop John B on PS--Brian's or Capitol's?

[koeeoaddi there]

 
Whenever someone suggests that Capitol insisted "Sloop John B" was put on the album, it usually comes with the insinuation that Brian wouldn't choose to put that song on his masterpiece, Pet Sounds, because it's not artistic enough.  

Never heard anyone criticise Sloop for not being artisitic enough.
ive only ever heard people say it shouldnt be on the album becuase it disrupts the flow, as its too jolly compared to the rest.
i dont think there can be any criticisms about its artistic merits - how can there be? its bloomin' genius!

[Rocker]

Memo was dated circa 2/23/66. Tracks listed were:

Wouldn't It Be Nice
Caroline, No
Good, Good, Good Vibrations [sic]
You Still Believe In Ne
That's Not Me
Hang On To Your Ego
Sloop John B
The Old Man And The Baby (=  Let's Go Away For A While}
Don't Talk...
I Just Wasn't Made...

... and two others, as yet untitled, one an instrumental. Interesting that "GGGV" was slated for inclusion five days after the very first session.

I can't remember where, but I'd read that "Good, God, Good Vibrations" was a working title for "Here Today". But I don't know how much truth lies in there....

[Jaco]

One could say Sloop John B belongs to the album, at least it's in the right place,
when you look at the keys of the songs, always the next song is higher:


Dm: Don't Talk

Em: I'm Waiting For The Day 

Fmaj7: Let's Go Away For A While pt1
Gmaj7: Let's Go Away For A While pt2

Ab: Sloop John B

A: God Only Knows

Bb: I Know There's An Answer 

Bm/A: Here Today

also, but a less obvious pattern:
Bb/C: I Just Wasn't Made For These Times

starting guitar notes: D & Eb: Pet Sounds (harmony Bb ad9)

bottom notes of the melody: Em (where did your) F(long hair go): Caroline No


Conclusion: last 10 songs of Pet Sounds are in a quite regular sequence, always a step upwards in harmony,
when you look at the (starting) chords and keys:
D -> E-> F&G-> Ab-> A-> Bb-> B-> C-> D&Eb-> E&F

[Matinee Idyll]

and yet rather than becoming uplifting, the album descends into the depths of despair at the end...

interesting discovery jaco...

[Ron]

Whenever someone suggests that Capitol insisted "Sloop John B" was put on the album, it usually comes with the insinuation that Brian wouldn't choose to put that song on his masterpiece, Pet Sounds, because it's not artistic enough. 

Well.....ok.  "Usually" is the operative word here.  Read my original post again.  There was no hidden agenda.  I happen to love SJB, and I couldn't imagine PS without it.  And I didn't suggest anything.  I asked a question.


Dan

Dan, Dan, Dan.  Did you read what I wrote originally? I clearly said in the original post that I wasn't saying that you were insinuating it.  The reason I mentioned it was that the entire "Capitol put it on there" rumour arose from people who think that the song doesn't fit the flow of the album and is inferior to the rest of the songs.... so of course it was worth mentioning that I didn't feel that was true.  This is really a pretty simple thing, I don't know why you don't understand what I'm talking about.  

[Ron]

Someone else on here has mentioned (although it's kind of shaky) that the last line of Sloop John B "This is the worst trip, I've ever been on" tidy's up the previous song, "Let's go away for a while". 

[Matinee Idyll]

I prefer them going away for awhile to a log cabin, and him singing loving words to her... "Aslong as there are stars above you, I'll always love you"

Not his grandpa eating some corn.

[Ron]

Well I said it was kind of shaky, lol.  Maybe it's intended as comedic relief?

[Sir Rob]

I prefer them going away for awhile to a log cabin, and him singing loving words to her... "Aslong as there are stars above you, I'll always love you"

Not his grandpa eating some corn.

At least they didn't get in a yellow submarine!

[Ron]

... or fix any holes in the roof!

[jazzfascist]

It's actually a pretty melancholy song about being homesick, a little like "That's Not Me", so in that way it does fit the theme of "Pet Sounds". I think it's the more upbeat orchestral arrangement that Brian did for it, probably because it was supposed to be a single, that makes it sound a little off on "Pet Sounds". Another type of arrangement might have made it fit better. It's also a kind of strange song in the BB's oeuvre, kind of strange that Al suggested it and in a way also strange that Brian took him up on it.

Søren

[Andrew G. Doe]

Memo was dated circa 2/23/66. Tracks listed were:

Wouldn't It Be Nice
Caroline, No
Good, Good, Good Vibrations [sic]
You Still Believe In Ne
That's Not Me
Hang On To Your Ego
Sloop John B
The Old Man And The Baby (=  Let's Go Away For A While}
Don't Talk...
I Just Wasn't Made...

... and two others, as yet untitled, one an instrumental. Interesting that "GGGV" was slated for inclusion five days after the very first session.

I can't remember where, but I'd read that "Good, God, Good Vibrations" was a working title for "Here Today". But I don't know how much truth lies in there....

"Here Today", if I recall correctly, originally had the matrix # of the released version of "GV",  understandable as an "HT" riff crops up in "GV".

[Mitchell]

Well I said it was kind of shaky, lol.  Maybe it's intended as comedic relief?

Brian certainly has a track record for that!

I also think that it works well with Let's Go Away for Awhile.

[Sir Rob]

I think it fits perfectly on Pet Sounds.  It's a great track and a great piece of music - I love to listen to it without the vocals (I like the vocals also BTW).  I also think it's positioning in the middle of the album on CD or the end of side 1 on vinyl just gives the album the necessary lift at the right time as a listening experience.  Otherwise I think the mood might have been a bit too consistently downbeat and reflective for the album's own good.

[Mitchell]

I think that song may have the best track and best vocals of the whole catalogue, actually.

[Bicyclerider]

There are a few problems with that, however.
1. Mark Linett has stated numerous times that they dumped these liner notes for the 2001 Pet Sounds release because it contained so many inaccuracies. (He never stated any details, however.)
2. Al Jardine has said in an interview from 2003 that (paraphrased) Capitol forced the song onto the album. We have discussed this interview on the Smile Shop board.

Brad disagreed with David Leaf on several points, which is why the liner notes were dumped - Brad became unwelcome in the BB camp after that.  One point of disagreement is whether Brian or Carl was singing the alternate vocal for God Only Knows - Brad said Carl based on the tape box notes, David said Brian based on Brian's recollection.  You judge for yourself - but at least Brad always cited his sources/reasons for his pronouncements, unlike David.  I find Brad's notes were more provocative, informative, and interesting than David's cheerleading notes - listen to how great this part is, etc.  Wears on you after a while - let the listener discover how great it is on their own.

Don't have the 2003 interview, but I find the Feb 66 track list more compelling than an interview 37 years later, when separating myth and fact is more difficult.  Anyone have a quote?

[Mitchell]

One point of disagreement is whether Brian or Carl was singing the alternate vocal for God Only Knows - Brad said Carl based on the tape box notes, David said Brian based on Brian's recollection.  You judge for yourself - but at least Brad always cited his sources/reasons for his pronouncements, unlike David.

Man, it even SOUNDS like Carl...

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think it had more to do with Brad being unwelcome in the Capitol camp circa summer 2000 than anything else, if what i've been told is true. Even so, I know who my money's on.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

David Leaf has singlehandedly led to more people erroneously believing that a certain Beach Boy sings a lead on various tracks.  He messed me up so bad.  He and Peter Buck.

I mean, it's so obviously Carl on the alternate GOK, but having somebody tell you it's somebody else plants this seed of doubt that's hard to overcome.

I miss Brad's relentless scholarship.  Nobody has really filled in that void, I guess.

[Jeff Mason]

You could, you know....

[Mitchell]

Has someone done a "Correcting the Beach Boy liner notes" thread? There are so many little things that, as Josh said, plant seeds of doubt in your mind when a simple correction would be all it needs.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I miss Brad's relentless scholarship.  Nobody has really filled in that void, I guess.

[slinks away, head down, snuffling quietly...]

[Mark]

oh, gotcha.  I'll explain, then.

People never ask "Who put 'I just wasn't made for these times' on Pet Sounds?  Was it Brian, or Capitol?"  because 'I just wasn't made for these times' is considered artistic enough that everyone assumes it must have been Brian, the genius, who put it on the album.

Whenever someone suggests that Capitol insisted "Sloop John B" was put on the album, it usually comes with the insinuation that Brian wouldn't choose to put that song on his masterpiece, Pet Sounds, because it's not artistic enough.  There's no reason Brian wouldn't put the song on the album... so to say that Capitol requested it implies that Brian didn't want it on the album, usually the argument is that the song doesn't fit the mood or the 'story' of the album, or blah blah blah.

... but you already knew all that you just wanted to play innocent.

I seem to remember a quote from Al stating that it was Capitol's decision.

Remember, Brian didn't want "Good Vibrations" on Smile originally, but he included it on the handwritten tracklist because he knew he had to.  I think the same logically might be applicable to "Sloop John B."

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

You could, you know....

I'm not relentless enough.  I'm not the sort who will make a call to Ferris State to see if Al went there.  I'm not organized enough, and I tend to lose interest in things, cyclically.

[slinks away, head down, snuffling quietly...]

Andrew, I had a feeling you might take offense, but believe me, none was intended.  Your scholarship is much appreciated, it just feels different than Brad's.  It just seemed like he was always investigating some unknown.  Maybe you're investigating unknowns behind the scenes, that's very possible.  Brad always seemed to have a call in somewhere or whatnot.  But maybe that was just self-promotion.

Either way, I'm grateful to both Brad and Andrew equally for their contributions.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Remember, Brian didn't want "Good Vibrations" on Smile originally, but he included it on the handwritten tracklist because he knew he had to.  I think the same logically might be applicable to "Sloop John B."

But what would put Brian in the position to feel he "had to" put Sloop on the album?  It wasn't even released when he wrote that tracklist, it wasn't a hit or a single.  GV was a proven winner come Smile time.