Who's Idea was it to put Sloop John B on PS--Brian's or Capitol's?

[Andrew G. Doe]

[slinks away, head down, snuffling quietly...]

Andrew, I had a feeling you might take offense, but believe me, none was intended.  Your scholarship is much appreciated, it just feels different than Brad's.  It just seemed like he was always investigating some unknown.  Maybe you're investigating unknowns behind the scenes, that's very possible.  Brad always seemed to have a call in somewhere or whatnot.  But maybe that was just self-promotion.

Either way, I'm grateful to both Brad and Andrew equally for their contributions.

T'was a joke, my friend. Never let it be said i ever passed up an opportunity like that. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Remember, Brian didn't want "Good Vibrations" on Smile originally, but he included it on the handwritten tracklist because he knew he had to.  I think the same logically might be applicable to "Sloop John B."

The analogy doesn't hold up, I'm afraid - Capitol was insisting on the inclusion of a #1 hit single on Smile[/i]. "SJB" hadn't even been released in February 1966.

[edit] bugger - forestalled again...

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

T'was a joke, my friend. Never let it be said i ever passed up an opportunity like that. 

Well, then I hope you have some calls in...ready to break some devastatingly interesting never-before-known Beach Boys information to the board.

[JRauch]

"Remember, Brian didn't want "Good Vibrations" on Smile originally, but he included it on the handwritten tracklist because he knew he had to."


Once again:

!!! THAT LIST WASN'T WRITTEN BY BRIAN !!!

[Jeff Mason]

"Remember, Brian didn't want "Good Vibrations" on Smile originally, but he included it on the handwritten tracklist because he knew he had to."


Once again:

!!! THAT LIST WASN'T WRITTEN BY BRIAN !!!

Unless you are going to argue that someone went behind Brian's back and turned in an official track list to Capitol without Brian's knowledge, so what?  He most likely dictated it or something like that.  I thought about that and about Peter's revelation on that, but I think that Brian HAD to know something about that track list.  The only way he didn't gets into conspiracy theory.

[Andrew G. Doe]

"Remember, Brian didn't want "Good Vibrations" on Smile originally, but he included it on the handwritten tracklist because he knew he had to."


Once again:

!!! THAT LIST WASN'T WRITTEN BY BRIAN !!!

Unless you are going to argue that someone went behind Brian's back and turned in an official track list to Capitol without Brian's knowledge, so what?  He most likely dictated it or something like that.  I thought about that and about Peter's revelation on that, but I think that Brian HAD to know something about that track list.  The only way he didn't gets into conspiracy theory.

Following research last year online, some of us conculded that's exactly what happened. And the person who did it was, apparently, Carl.

[Jeff Mason]

Conspiracy theory, then -- why would Carl go behind Brian's back, why would Capitol let him do it, how did they hide it from Brian for decades, and what did Carl think he was going to say when Brian found out?

Serious questions, because that's why I considered and rejected the notion.

[JRauch]

Also, the list was shown to Brian last year and he swore that he has never seen it in his life.

[Jeff Mason]

Also, the list was shown to Brian last year and he swore that he has never seen it in his life.

I know that -- I just think he could have forgotted that he dictated it.

Again, the only possible answer to support that line is that someone was working behind his back.  That would add a new twist to the "the band hated it or not" debate.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

onspiracy theory, then -- why would Carl go behind Brian's back, why would Capitol let him do it, how did they hide it from Brian for decades, and what did Carl think he was going to say when Brian found out?

Serious questions, because that's why I considered and rejected the notion.

Yeah, there's too much at play to think that Brian didn't have some part in the creation of that list.  It's just not something that could be got away with.  I mean, imagine some other group.  Picture Paul McCartney going into EMI and saying "Here's the tracklist for our new album, no need to contact our producer, just go ahead and print up the album sleeves."

[Mitchell]

I didn't think that the SMiLE tracklisting handwriting matched the handwriting on the lyric sheet for Surf's Up that is printed in Stephen Desper's book. It says Carl wrote it, with corrections from Brian (you can tell). I agree that it matched that of the Wild Honey notes, though. Anyone else have a look at the Surf's Up lyrics?

[Dancing Bear]

(...)what did Carl think he was going to say when Brian found out?

EXACTLY. This little practical thing, three months later Brian receives the album from the record plant and what the f*** is "do you like worms? Where's Plymuth Rock?

So Brian doesn't remember having anything to do with it... That's not good enough. Now that Carl's gone someone could ask Diane Rovell about it, I think she used to deal with that stuff.

Till I have more evidences, I'll keep believing that this conspiracy theory is a fan effort to legitimize BWPS and Beautiful Dreamer.

[Jeff Mason]

I totally think that Carl wrote the list.  I also think that he did it as dictated by Brian.

[Andreas]

Brad disagreed with David Leaf on several points, which is why the liner notes were dumped - Brad became unwelcome in the BB camp after that.  One point of disagreement is whether Brian or Carl was singing the alternate vocal for God Only Knows - Brad said Carl based on the tape box notes, David said Brian based on Brian's recollection.  You judge for yourself - but at least Brad always cited his sources/reasons for his pronouncements, unlike David.  I find Brad's notes were more provocative, informative, and interesting than David's cheerleading notes - listen to how great this part is, etc.  Wears on you after a while - let the listener discover how great it is on their own.

Don't have the 2003 interview, but I find the Feb 66 track list more compelling than an interview 37 years later, when separating myth and fact is more difficult.  Anyone have a quote?

I agree with everything you said about Brad. In the good old days, we had Brad and AGD challenging each other about historical trivia, sources and proofs. He is truly missed. I also can't stand David's writing style.

So nobody has saved that quote by Al?

[Don't Back Down]

If you think of it, "Sloop John B" fits in with the whole "biography" so-to-speak of Brian's. The lyrics make sense (I know Brian/Asher didnt write this) but this was around the time when Brian quit touring, right? "I feel so broke up, I want to go home" it fits Brian's main theme of Pet Sounds, imo of him expressing what's going on inside his head during that time. Thought of that today while I should have been paying attention in History 102 hah

[SurferGirl7]

I like it in there mistake or not.





Unless you like to replace with ramdom takes of dogs barking or make your own version of Remember The Zoo 

[Bicyclerider]

I think there has been a longstanding confusion about Brian not wanting Good Vibrations on Smile - it's on the list (which he must have approved at some point, even if he didn't physically write it), the single came out in October about two months before the album was originally due (by Christmas) and it would have been de riguer (sp?) to have the recent hit single on the album.  I think Brian didn't want to include it on Smiley Smile, where it clearly doesn't fit production wise.  Some of the comments about not wanting to include I remember came from the Anderle/Williams pieces where it's not clear which album they're talking about.

[Ron]

It's a moot argument anyways.  The song was gonna end up somewhere.  Originally it was gonna be on Pet Sounds, right?  Originally,  SMiLE would be a huge long verson of Heroes and Villians.  Originally, it was called Dumb Angel.  Originally, GV had different lyrics.

Everything changes, maybe there was a time when Brian didn't want Good Vibrations on SMiLE but I think it's safe to say that by the time the list appeared he envisioned it on the album. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Conspiracy theory, then -- why would Carl go behind Brian's back, why would Capitol let him do it, how did they hide it from Brian for decades, and what did Carl think he was going to say when Brian found out?

Serious questions, because that's why I considered and rejected the notion.

Wait...are we talking about Pet Sounds or SMiLE?

[Sheriff John Stone]

No, I don't think "Sloop John B" fits on PET SOUNDS. Nevertheless, it's such a great record that I'm GLAD it was included.

I do have a problem with it's placement on the record. On my mix CD's, I always put it right BEFORE "Caroline, No". You know, he feels so broke up, he wants to go home. Then he gets home and discovers that Caroline cut her hair...  I'm always reconfiguring the sequence PET SOUNDS, more than any other Beach Boys' album.

PET SOUNDS is the greatest album ever, but I can't help but think how much more recognition it would've received if "Good Vibrations" would've opened that album. Then there would be NO ARGUMENT about the greatest of all time...

[Jeff Mason]

Conspiracy theory, then -- why would Carl go behind Brian's back, why would Capitol let him do it, how did they hide it from Brian for decades, and what did Carl think he was going to say when Brian found out?

Serious questions, because that's why I considered and rejected the notion.

Wait...are we talking about Pet Sounds or SMiLE?

SMILE -- someone used the tracklist for Smile as an example of Brian being forced to include a song on an album which started up the controversy over whether Brian wrote the list or was the source for it.

[Cam Mott]

I think you will find if you check with Capitol execs of the day that there is no way a list like this would have been accepted, let alone pasted up and then corrected, except from the producer, Brian, regardless of whose hand wrote or typed the list.  And whatever approvals of the art and it's correction could only be made by the producer, Brian.  That is from two 1960s Capitol art directors, including George Osaka the Art Director of the SMiLE album.  Direction and approval of everything was through the producer, is it any different today? 

This is a none issue imo inspite of Brian's lack of memory of it.

Like Jeff said, if it were a conspiracy it would virtually sink the "history" of the Boys wanting to sink SMiLE [if it hasn't been sunk already]?  Is that where this is going?

Anyway, are the PS' tracklists in Brian's hand or Carl's or typewritten; if the later two, does that mean someone went behind Brian's back on PS?

[SMiLEY]

Someone else on here has mentioned (although it's kind of shaky) that the last line of Sloop John B "This is the worst trip, I've ever been on" tidy's up the previous song, "Let's go away for a while". 

That was me, and it's not 'shaky' at all! Even before Let's Go Away For Awhile there is That's Not Me which is about a painful trip to the city. The album is about journeys, both emotional and real.

I didn't realize that the keys are all ascending! That, in itself, justifies the inclusion of SJB as if it needed it, which it doesn't.

[NC]

I think that song may have the best track and best vocals of the whole catalogue, actually.

I actually don't think that's very far-fetched at all. It was done at a time when Brian was really firing on all creative cylinders, and still remaining commercially viable.

The accappella version is also totally mind-blowing.

[Peter Ames Carlin]

Interesting subject. I actually had a chance to ask BW about this directly during an interview for my book ("Catch A Wave," coming to a bookseller near you in May! Sure to sell a million units......in May!) and proposed to him that "SJB" is actually a key part of the album, both musically and thematically, despite the folk tale aspects of the lyrics. He agreed, and expanded upon the notion in interesting ways that are in the book. To paraphrase the whole bit of business, it's important to consider the themes in "SJB" -- homesickness, displacement, yearning -- and ponder how neatly they fit in with the originals. What really strikes me, though, is how his arrangement (the sparkling guitars/bells/etc., the amazing vocal arrangement) transforms the evident sorrow into something so beautiful it sounds ecstatic. That's the same paradox that makes 'PS' so fascinating: the story it tells is pretty desolate (the progress from 'wouldn't it be nice' to 'caroline, no') but the music is so innovative and beautiful it sounds absolutely triumphant. To me, 'SJB' is a pocket version of that whole thing. It's the point in the album where the hero (BW) shows exactly how he transforms his fears and sorrows into something entirely different, and absolutely transcendent.

"Yeah, yeah, that's it, exactly." (BW)