Joe Thomas version of Surfs Up

[Ethan]

Any details on this ?  Wendy on first part,Brian on second.

[STE]

First time I hear about this...  Where did you read about it?

[Ethan]

ESQ, Spring 2002

[Roger Ryan]

Well, ESQ was probably reporting on a recording done several years earlier since Mr. Thomas and Brian's camp parted ways in Spring '99. Could a re-recording of "Surf's Up" been considered for inclusion on "The Wilsons" album (released 1997)?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

ESQ, Spring 2002

What exactly did the article say?

The idea of Joe Thomas producing a version of Surf's Up is laughable.

[the captain]

The idea of Joe Thomas producing anything outside of a sweet mullet and an enormous quantity of cheese is laughable.

I like to pretend the above is what you meant.

[Ethan]

Wendy also recorded  In My Room, and was unaware that T.W also did the same latter.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

The idea of Joe Thomas producing anything outside of a sweet mullet and an enormous quantity of  sh*t  is laughable.

I like to pretend the above is what you meant.

Fixed

[Sheriff John Stone]

I liked the work Joe Thomas did with Brian on Imagination and The Beach Boys on Stars And Stripes. He's no Phil Spector and there were some things I would've changed, but I thought he got Brian and the guys to sound pretty good. I think he could've pulled off a good take of "Surf's Up". Thomas was able to get a certain cool "atmosphere" on songs like "Cry", "Lay Down Burden", "She Said That She Needs Me", "The Warmth Of The Sun", "I Can Hear Music", and "Caroline No".

[MBE]

No offense but I don't like Joe's work at all. I think he was a hack. I remember he laughed at an interview who suggested Brian's music can be progressive.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I liked the work Joe Thomas did with Brian on Imagination and The Beach Boys on Stars And Stripes. He's no Phil Spector and there were some things I would've changed, but I thought he got Brian and the guys to sound pretty good. I think he could've pulled off a good take of "Surf's Up". Thomas was able to get a certain cool "atmosphere" on songs like "Cry", "Lay Down Burden", "She Said That She Needs Me", "The Warmth Of The Sun", "I Can Hear Music", and "Caroline No".

If you starck Brian's vocals on 30, 40 50 or more tracks and then ProTool them to hell and back, of course he's going to sound pretty good.

[mikeyj]

I liked the work Joe Thomas did with Brian on Imagination and The Beach Boys on Stars And Stripes. He's no Phil Spector and there were some things I would've changed, but I thought he got Brian and the guys to sound pretty good. I think he could've pulled off a good take of "Surf's Up". Thomas was able to get a certain cool "atmosphere" on songs like "Cry", "Lay Down Burden", "She Said That She Needs Me", "The Warmth Of The Sun", "I Can Hear Music", and "Caroline No".

If you starck Brian's vocals on 30, 40 50 or more tracks and then ProTool them to hell and back, of course he's going to sound pretty good.

Are you serious Andrew? 30-50 tracks of vocals? That seems like an awful lot. If it is true, it's pretty sad. I mean I know it might seem besides the point but when you hear Brian's voice in 1965 on his vocal on She Knows Me.. etc.. which is just one track (I realise that those 30-50 tracks are backing vocals too) then it just makes me so sad.. of course everyones voice deteriorates with age but it couldve been so much better if he hadn't been so heavy into drugs etc.. I mean Im not a fan of Paul McCartney as a solo artist but atleast he still has a decent voice (even though it is probably edited)..

By the way, Andrew's post made me think of something, how many layers of Dennis vocals are on Thoughts Of You? I'm sure you all know which bit I'm talking about.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I liked the work Joe Thomas did with Brian on Imagination and The Beach Boys on Stars And Stripes. He's no Phil Spector and there were some things I would've changed, but I thought he got Brian and the guys to sound pretty good. I think he could've pulled off a good take of "Surf's Up". Thomas was able to get a certain cool "atmosphere" on songs like "Cry", "Lay Down Burden", "She Said That She Needs Me", "The Warmth Of The Sun", "I Can Hear Music", and "Caroline No".

If you starck Brian's vocals on 30, 40 50 or more tracks and then ProTool them to hell and back, of course he's going to sound pretty good.

Hey, if that's what it took. But that's what I meant. He GOT Brian to sound good, better than BW 88, Orange Crate Art, and GIOMH. You're post obviously refers to the backing vocals. On Imagination, I was referring more to the leads. With the possible exception of BWPS, I think they are the best of his solo career. I also think his backing vocals on Imagination were also good BTW, ProTools or no ProTools.

For those critics of Joe Thomas, remember that those albums have Brian listed as producer also. Is this another case of excusing Brian (again) and blaming others? Jeez, the board must be slow if I'm resorting to defending Joe Thomas.

[oldsurferdude]

Pro tools, shmo tools-who cares? Brian sounded closer to his glory days on Imagination than anything he's done since going solo and even before that. Isn't it more crucial to have him sound as good as possible on the finished product? Doesn't it help to sell better and possibly get some much needed airplay? I say bring Joe back asap.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I liked the work Joe Thomas did with Brian on Imagination and The Beach Boys on Stars And Stripes. He's no Phil Spector and there were some things I would've changed, but I thought he got Brian and the guys to sound pretty good. I think he could've pulled off a good take of "Surf's Up". Thomas was able to get a certain cool "atmosphere" on songs like "Cry", "Lay Down Burden", "She Said That She Needs Me", "The Warmth Of The Sun", "I Can Hear Music", and "Caroline No".

If you starck Brian's vocals on 30, 40 50 or more tracks and then ProTool them to hell and back, of course he's going to sound pretty good.

Are you serious Andrew? 30-50 tracks of vocals? That seems like an awful lot. If it is true, it's pretty sad. I mean I know it might seem besides the point but when you hear Brian's voice in 1965 on his vocal on She Knows Me.. etc.. which is just one track (I realise that those 30-50 tracks are backing vocals too) then it just makes me so sad.. of course everyones voice deteriorates with age but it couldve been so much better if he hadn't been so heavy into drugs etc.. I mean Im not a fan of Paul McCartney as a solo artist but atleast he still has a decent voice (even though it is probably edited)..

By the way, Andrew's post made me think of something, how many layers of Dennis vocals are on Thoughts Of You? I'm sure you all know which bit I'm talking about.

Brian mentioned the number of vocals in the stack in interviews when the album was released. - I may have exaggerated slightly but it was well up in the 20s.

Dunno about "Thoughts Of You", but the chunk of "Ecology" that inspired it - "All Of my Love" - had 350 vocals on it, according to Dennis. Impressive for a 16-track console.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Pro tools, shmo tools-who cares? Brian sounded closer to his glory days on Imagination than anything he's done since going solo and even before that. Isn't it more crucial to have him sound as good as possible on the finished product? Doesn't it help to sell better and possibly get some much needed airplay? I say bring Joe back asap.

The whole Imagination project was a cynical and dispiriting excercise in decieving the fans into believing Brian was not only interested in doing it but also in charge of the proceedings. The studio footage ? Staged, every last second of it, with Brian being told what to say and how to act.

[the captain]

Imagination is terrible. It's cheese, through and through. The "atmosphere" is those annoying synth pads and meandering nylon string guitars. The little electric lines here and there suck. The piano parts are more Thomas than Wilson, and all you have to do is listen to the entirety of Brian's career against them to notice.

As for any studio vocal correction, it's the least objectionable part of things. The instrumental production choices, though, were atrocious, like giving up and admitting that adult contemporary was the way to go, and Brian Wilson was a castrated nothing, a name. Even the good songs sound bad.

And he included Jimmy Buffet, for f***'s sake.

(As for Andrew's discussion of vocal tracks, I don't doubt that at all, and it's not even unusual or a big deal, really. There is an interview from OCA wherein either Brian or VDP says he quadruple-tracked every part, and they often used four parts. So you're looking at 16 tracks there. In some of the parts with bigger vocal arrangements in terms of backgrounds, you could very, very easily top 20. Hell, I top 20 regularly at home, and that isn't even for big arrangements sometimes. Let's also keep in mind that doesn't mean simultaneous. Unlike with tape, you have no reason to keep the numbers down--if a part comes in early and disappears, and a different part comes in later, you may use two tracks just to make it easy to remember what you're doing. So if you're quadrupling them both as Brian was, that's eight tracks for maybe 10 seconds of music. It's not a big deal.)

[Sheriff John Stone]

The whole Imagination project was a cynical and dispiriting excercise in decieving the fans into believing Brian was not only interested in doing it but also in charge of the proceedings. The studio footage ? Staged, every last second of it, with Brian being told what to say and how to act.

Orchestrated by who(m)?

[oldsurferdude]

Pro tools, shmo tools-who cares? Brian sounded closer to his glory days on Imagination than anything he's done since going solo and even before that. Isn't it more crucial to have him sound as good as possible on the finished product? Doesn't it help to sell better and possibly get some much needed airplay? I say bring Joe back asap.

The whole Imagination project was a cynical and dispiriting excercise in decieving the fans into believing Brian was not only interested in doing it but also in charge of the proceedings s. The studio footage ? Staged, every last second of it, with Brian being told what to say and how to act.

Hmmm, I go to purchase a new Brian cd and I start woncering if it was recorded under "cynical and dispiriting" conditions. Jeez, I wonder if Brian was totally "in charge", even though he hasn't been in charge for some time now. Do I not end up buying his cd and trying to enjoy it because of the possibility that these conditions may or may not exist? I don't think so-Regardless of whether they were a fake or not, both the cd and the video were enjoyable and it was good to hear Brian sound as good as he did. I don't approach Brian's music on the basis of deception-what people do behind the scenes is not as important as you make it out to be-what counts is the finished product.

[the captain]

what counts is the finished product.

I agree with that. And so I hate the bulk of Imagination, and am sad about the rest of it for how good it could have been under better circumstances. Multitracked, pitch-corrected Brians are fine. But there is so much there to dislike in the finished product: the intros to "Cry" and "Lay Down Burden" alone are enough to make me tense up with anger (once I finish vomiting). Two ruined recordings of could-have-been-great songs.

[Andrew G. Doe]

both the cd and the video were enjoyable

So you find the sight Brian Wilson rigid with stage fright and clearly wanting to be anythere else but where he is "enjoyable" ?

Says it all, doesn't it ?

[oldsurferdude]

both the cd and the video were enjoyable

So you find the sight Brian Wilson rigid with stage fright and clearly wanting to be anythere else but where he is "enjoyable" ?

Says it all, doesn't it ?

Oh, I see, you were there when they taped it, right? Brian has been "rigid with stage fright" for many years-so lets not listen or watch anything he does ever again-we'll just wait until he returns to his 60's mind set and then we'll all be dead anyway-sounds like a plan.

[Rich E P]

I both love and hate Joe Thomas' work with Brian (and the BBs).  I really dislike the instrumental tracks (nylon guitars, the piano tinkles and boring MOR synths).  But the vocals are really well done.  And having a fair bit of experience with pitch correction and protools they CANNOT completely save a bad vocal.  Yes it can put the vocals in tune (a huge help for sure), but if you slur, or phrase incorrectly, have poor timing in your delivery it is not a magical wonder machine that makes everything sound perfect.  I think we have to give Joe Thomas some credit that he did get Brian to deliver some strong leads and he recorded them well.  When they originally turned in some early versions (not finished) of the imagination they were told to go back and make the leads better.  Brian has to re - sing those leads until they sounded better.  I give Joe Thomas credit at the very least for getting Brian to do a great job with that.  I think many of us agree that Brian needs someone whom he trusts to kick his butt and say you can sing that better.  I think many of us agree that didn't happen (as much or at all) with GIOMH (though I still like a fair bit of it) but it sounds like Darian was able to motivate Brian to a much do better job vocally with Smile (and Brian's vocals are great on the Christmas cd too).  Joe may have created some terrible instrumental beds but he looked after Brian's vocals in a big way.
And for those who think imagination is all bad what about the vocals only versions of Your Imagination and South American?  Pull 'em out and have another go.  They are really great.  I would have loved to have the whole cd in a vocals only version.  Brian may not have contributed too much (or at all) to the instrumental ideas on Imagination but don't tell me he didn't contribute to some of the beautiful vocal arrangements.  He did, and they are great.

[the captain]

I both love and hate Joe Thomas' work with Brian (and the BBs).  I really dislike the instrumental tracks (nylon guitars, the piano tinkles and boring MOR synths).  But the vocals are really well done.  And having a fair bit of experience with pitch correction and protools they CANNOT completely save a bad vocal.  Yes it can put the vocals in tune (a huge help for sure), but if you slur, or phrase incorrectly, have poor timing in your delivery it is not a magical wonder machine that makes everything sound perfect.  I think we have to give Joe Thomas some credit that he did get Brian to deliver some strong leads and he recorded them well.  When they originally turned in some early versions (not finished) of the imagination they were told to go back and make the leads better.  Brian has to re - sing those leads until they sounded better.  I give Joe Thomas credit at the very least for getting Brian to do a great job with that.  I think many of us agree that Brian needs someone whom he trusts to kick his butt and say you can sing that better.  I think many of us agree that didn't happen (as much or at all) with GIOMH (though I still like a fair bit of it) but it sounds like Darian was able to motivate Brian to a much do better job vocally with Smile (and Brian's vocals are great on the Christmas cd too).  Joe may have created some terrible instrumental beds but he looked after Brian's vocals in a big way.
And for those who think imagination is all bad what about the vocals only versions of Your Imagination and South American?  Pull 'em out and have another go.  They are really great.  I would have loved to have the whole cd in a vocals only version.  Brian may not have contributed too much (or at all) to the instrumental ideas on Imagination but don't tell me he didn't contribute to some of the beautiful vocal arrangements.  He did, and they are great.

That's a really good post.

Where did you get that info re the rejected early vocals, and reworking of them? I haven't heard that before.

And lastly, I would like to reiterate my hatred for those instrumental tracks. For emphasis.

[oldsurferdude]

Right on, Rich-a very well constucted post .