Joe Thomas version of Surfs Up

[Sheriff John Stone]

Multitracked, pitch-corrected Brians are fine. But there is so much there to dislike in the finished product: the intros to "Cry" and "Lay Down Burden" alone are enough to make me tense up with anger (once I finish vomiting). Two ruined recordings of could-have-been-great songs.

I know what you're saying. When I heard those tinkling pianos and nylon-stringed guitars on those songs, I immediately thought this was another case of people either writing songs or finishing songs for Brian. Like you or somebody else stated, as a long-time Brian fan, I knew he wouldn't/couldn't write something like that.

But, for some reason, it didn't bother me that much. I felt that a) if Brian DID produce those parts, then they were OK with me. I thought he/they were trying to be "current", or b) if he didn't write them and didn't give a damn, then I wouldn't care either. I know that doesn't make a lot of sense, but I guess I started to not care anymore.

I do kind of agree with you, Luther, and others who don't like that slick 90's production for Brian, but I'll repeat it again - why didn't Brian do something about it? And if he's gonna put his name on the record as artist AND producer, then who's really to blame?

I think, ultimately, I overlooked the production and, because Brian sounded really good vocally, I accepted a lot of it. My biggest gripe - then and now - is the number of songs on the album (too few) and the depending on old BB/BW songs. I thought that after 10 years between solo albums, there should've been a load of material to be recorded.

Edit: I almost forgot why I originally posted... Regardless of the production, IMO, "Lay Down Burden" is the best song of Brian's solo career.

[the captain]

I want to be clear: I hate those things I've mentioned whether they're Thomas's or Wilson's. But because they're so anomalous to Wilson's other work and in line with what I understand Thomas's to be, I have to assume they're the latter's. But if they're Thomas's and Wilson signed off, I still hate them. They sound terrible. And good vocal performances on mediocre songs with terrible production just aren't enough to get me to like it. I can like or appreciate the vocal performances while despising the bulk of the remainder of things on that album ... and I do.

[Wilsonista]

In reference to a JT SU, I was told that the BW camp had originally wanted Thomas to help finish SMiLE with Thomas assuming the role that was later assumed by Darian.

[Rich E P]

That interview regarding early versions of Imagination songs came out during the promotional rush for the Imagination cd in an on-line article but I can't recall the publication.  That was when I first started using the internet to find out about Brian.  Lauri Klobas used to have a great site called Breakaway and I discovered that interview as a result of that site.  
That was an interesting time to be a BW fan.  I can remember that a small clip from the song Your Imagination was posted on the internet as a teaser around that time as I was excited about how good Brian's voice sounded.  I was really looking forward to Imagination's release and when it did come out I was happy for the new material and LOVED the vocals and vocal arrangements but REALLY DISLIKED the instrumental work.  I had heard the bootlegged Wilson/Paley material and I was hoping for vocals that sounded as good as the Imagination vocals but I wanted the organic real instrumental approach of the Paley stuff.  I thought She Says That She Needs Me was great to have on Imagination because no other officially released version was available but Keep An Eye On Summer and Let Him Run Wild were a foolish to choice to rerecord.  Brian's vocals sound good on them but how do you compete with the original versions (you can't).  I wished they would have used some of the Wilson/Paley tracks here.

RobMac,
I shudder to think of the possible results if Joe Thomas were to finish Smile with Brian.  The vocals may have sounded great but he would have RUINED the beautiful instrumental, arrangement and production ideas that made Smile legendary.  Darian did the BEST possible job helping Brian realize the Smile vision both instrumentally and vocally.  Bless him for it.

[the captain]

A Joe Thomas Smile would have been ridiculous, like a Mike Love Smile. Terrifying thought.

[mikeyj]

I'm gonna jump in here and say has anyone heard the audio of somebody (ie: not Brian) humming the melody of Your Imagination over the track? (can't remember where I found it) What's the deal with that?

[Wilsonista]

I agree with both of you guys.

The section of the fan base that disliked BWPS would have had real jusitifcation for complaints if JT had touched SMiLE.  "Wonderful" with those "tastefully improvised" gently-plucked lite-jazz classical guitar licks? Uh, no thanks! 

Though it would have been fun to watch Dom Priore's head  explode if that happened!

[oldsurferdude]

A Joe Thomas Smile would have been ridiculous, like a Mike Love Smile. Terrifying thought.

absolutely!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

And having a fair bit of experience with pitch correction and protools they CANNOT completely save a bad vocal.  Yes it can put the vocals in tune (a huge help for sure), but if you slur, or phrase incorrectly, have poor timing in your delivery it is not a magical wonder machine that makes everything sound perfect.

Good point.  Supposedly Brian's vocals were autotuned on GIOMH, and even though I'm one of maybe 4 people who actually LIKED GIOMH, well... you know how his vocals turned out on that one.

I wish there *was* a vocals only version of Imagination, because the instrumental tracks are pure unbridled ass. The guitars on LDB,for instance, sound terrible...you hear more "scraping" then plucking!  The drums...well, Eddie Bayer's no John Bonham (hell,he's not even in Jason Bonham's league),but there's no excuse for how poor the actual sound of the drums. To be honest, as much as I love to harp on how poor the production was, special  mention must go to the mix. Honestly, a half-dead Rottweiler could've done a better mix. Mixing in Pro-Tools is no excuse, as I've used Pro-Tools myself while I was in college and can honestly say that I've never heard such a sh*tty work  as this. Hell, my instructor actually brought Imagination to class to point out what NOT to do . (that was embarrasing, by the way, as everyone else knew I was/still am a big fan) Digital recording doesn't mean the end result has to sound tinny and/or plastic-y.

[the captain]

Supposedly Brian's vocals were autotuned on GIOMH...

Obviously not enough of them.

[Dancing Bear]

A Joe Thomas Smile would have been ridiculous, like a Mike Love Smile. Terrifying thought.

A Smile with twelve tracks on the level of Good Vibrations? I wouldn't mind having it in my collection.  

[Wilsonista]

Hell, my instructor actually brought Imagination to class to point out what NOT to do .

Seriously? Joe Thomas defenders, there's a damning piece of anecdote right there!

[oldsurferdude]

Don't believe everything you read-sounds ambiguous to me.

[Mahalo]

I like Imagination, could be better, could be worse....no beef here....I know it's "adult contemporary", but Brian was how old when he recorded that? 

[the captain]

A Joe Thomas Smile would have been ridiculous, like a Mike Love Smile. Terrifying thought.

A Smile with twelve tracks on the level of Good Vibrations? I wouldn't mind having it in my collection.  

Hey, if that's what you want to pretend it would've been...

[Andrew G. Doe]

Supposedly Brian's vocals were autotuned on GIOMH, and even though I'm one of maybe 4 people who actually LIKED GIOMH, well... you know how his vocals turned out on that one.

My understanding is that  few, if any, of the vocal tracks on GIOMH were auto-tuned or ProTooled. Maybe the track cut in 2002.

A lot of people on the, for want of a better word, 'inside' were bitterly disappointed with how the whole project turned out.

[the captain]

My understanding is that  few, if any, of the vocal tracks on GIOMH were auto-tuned or ProTooled. Maybe the track cut in 2002.

Sorry I have to be a bother, but I think this requires stepping in. (It might not, and if I'm wrong, correct me.) "ProTooled" doesn't really make sense. Usually when that term or ones like it are used on this and other boards, the poster means digitally changing the audio to correct pitch, rhythm, etc. But Pro Tools is just the software through which the music CAN be processed, but also through which it is often recorded, mixed and can be mastered. My understanding is that Mark L. has been using ProTools for all of Brian's stuff with this band: Smile, GIOMH, Xmas, the singles, etc. But using ProTools doesn't imply any kind of correction. And you can do those sorts of pitch correction or other enhancements outside of and without ProTools.

I believe all the music on GIOMH was "ProTooled" in that it was all done on ProTools. Whether Mark or anyone else did pitch correction or other editing is a different issue.

Apologies if I'm wrong, and it wasn't recorded or mixed on ProTools. And apologies if nobody else cares about this issue at all. I just get tired of a multifaceted piece of software being used synonymously for one of its possible features.

When you use spellcheck in Microsoft Word, nobody says "oh, that document was MS Worded." See what I mean?

[Andrew G. Doe]

You're right, of course - mea culpa, I tend to use Pro-Tooling as a generic phrase for vocal correction. The pitch-correction is but a very small part of the whole program, and most studios use a dedicated plug-in anyway.

And if the album was thusly tweaked... well, can you imagine how bad it sounded originally ?

[Roger Ryan]

If there were any auto-tuned vocals on GIOMH it would probably have been the backing vocals to the title track which had been co-produced by Joe Thomas back in '98 or '99 (much of that version remains on the 2004 release).

Back in '97 or '98, some rough mixes from the "Imagination" album were played on Steve Dahl's Chicago-based radio show prior to release. I remember "South American" sounded pretty good with a boogie-woogie piano part played high in the mix. On the released version, that piano all but disappeared under a deluge of synth horns and nylon strings which made the song sound DOA like the rest of the album.

[phirnis]

I actually rate the songwriting on Imagination as some of the best of BW's solo career. Still, none of that material ever got me excited. BW88 on the other hand might have its flaws and suffers from an over-the-top synth-heavy production as well, but it still sounds like an energetic effort, like something worth rediscovering every once in awhile, for there's still some  magic moments among the undeniable sterility. You know, grown-up men don't have to necessarily make their once soulful music sound like adult contemporary pap just because they got older. That, to me, is one of the biggest flaws of BW's solo career, Joe Thomas being involved or not: up until the realease of Smile, it's full of totally unnecessary compromises, decisions that didn't even help to make those records sell at the end of the day.

[Dancing Bear]

A Joe Thomas Smile would have been ridiculous, like a Mike Love Smile. Terrifying thought.

A Smile with twelve tracks on the level of Good Vibrations? I wouldn't mind having it in my collection.  

Hey, if that's what you want to pretend it would've been...

Mike would have delivered the goods, like he did whenever his lyrics were requested in the sixties. Would "Warmth of the Sun" be a better song if its lyrics were about sun watches and the march of white men to the west?

Whatever, Brian still wouldn't have finished Smile. 

[endofposts]

I actually rate the songwriting on Imagination as some of the best of BW's solo career. Still, none of that material ever got me excited. BW88 on the other hand might have its flaws and suffers from an over-the-top synth-heavy production as well, but it still sounds like an energetic effort, like something worth rediscovering every once in awhile, for there's still some  magic moments among the undeniable sterility. You know, grown-up men don't have to necessarily make their once soulful music sound like adult contemporary pap just because they got older. That, to me, is one of the biggest flaws of BW's solo career, Joe Thomas being involved or not: up until the realease of Smile, it's full of totally unnecessary compromises, decisions that didn't even help to make those records sell at the end of the day.

That is so true.  It seems like too much of Brian's later work is pitched at A/C and the supermarket music market (he's actually had some success there, I've heard his music played in stores, but I don't know how well that pays).  That might be a condition of getting record companies to back him.  I think he would be far better off releasing his music through the Internet and having a lower studio budget.   

[Dancing Bear]

In 1998 I was really excited with all the enthusiastic reports about Imagination. Then I started to understand the pattern in fandom with new Brian releases. It never fails.

The adult contemporary producing values didn't bother me more than those in BW'88. But the latter had the songs, the former just didn't - IMO. That's a CD that coasted on my shelf for so many years that I ended giving it away.

[Leo K]

I'm just glad to read others here like/appreciate Imagination as much as I do...I love everything about the album, even the arrangements...especially Dream Angel and Happy Days.

[the captain]

And if the album was thusly tweaked... well, can you imagine how bad it sounded originally ?

I try not to imagine that. I like some of the material from that album. I like some of the tracks. But there are spots--and yes, especially vocally--that are atrocious. Really bad. Demo quality. And I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, considering your many previous posts and reviews on this album's "quality."