Odd "Heroes And Villains" sections??

[Chris D.]

It's a smoothed-out (by Linett) version of a multi-track edit made by Brian in September 1966.

Okay, thanks Jason.

[I. Spaceman]

Yeah, the one with the counts in between sections.
If you have Project SMiLE, the acetate's on there somewhere.

[Chris D.]

Yeah, the one with the counts in between sections.
If you have Project SMiLE, the acetate's on there somewhere.

Okay, so that's on SOT 17?  But it was Brian's decision to remove the bridge, correct?

[Jason]

Yes, that track is on SOT 17. It's missing a double-tracked vocal, but luckily for us, Linett found the vocal sessions and was able to reconstruct the vocal.

[I. Spaceman]

Yeah, the one with the counts in between sections.
If you have Project SMiLE, the acetate's on there somewhere.

Okay, so that's on SOT 17?  But it was Brian's decision to remove the bridge, correct?

I believe so, but I am willing to be corrected.

[Jason]

The bridge doesn't exist on the multi-track edit. I don't think Brian ever seriously considered it. It shows up on SOT 17 in one of the numbered takes. Take 5, to be exact.

[Chris D.]

The bridge doesn't exist on the multi-track edit. I don't think Brian ever seriously considered it. It shows up on SOT 17 in one of the numbered takes. Take 5, to be exact.

Okay.  Isn't it mixed in with "Heroes and Villains" on the first disc, too?

[Jason]

Not to my knowledge.

[guitarfool2002]

The bridge doesn't exist on the multi-track edit. I don't think Brian ever seriously considered it. It shows up on SOT 17 in one of the numbered takes. Take 5, to be exact.

You don't think Brian ever considered what?

[Jason]

The bridge as a part of Wind Chimes.

[guitarfool2002]

The bridge as a part of Wind Chimes.

How did you arrive at that conclusion, that Brian didn't seriously consider that bridge a part Wind Chimes?

[Jason]

It doesn't show up on the same multi-track edit that Brian made that Mark Linett used for his reconstruction. If anything, what we know as the bridge was just a jam, because it only shows up in take 5 of Wind Chimes in August 1966. Not sure what day, exactly.

[guitarfool2002]

It doesn't show up on the same multi-track edit that Brian made that Mark Linett used for his reconstruction. If anything, what we know as the bridge was just a jam, because it only shows up in take 5 of Wind Chimes in August 1966. Not sure what day, exactly.

Okay, just to clarify - what part of Wind Chimes, or what section, are you hearing as the bridge?

[Jason]

Listen to take 5 of Wind Chimes on SOT 17, around 2:41, there's a mystery section that later reappeared on Brian Wilson Presents Smile. This section never appeared on any other take, nor Brian's edit, which leads me to believe it was never seriously considered. For all we know, it could have been a jam.

[Chris D.]

You're right.  I was getting confused with track 12 on disc 1, which has a similar feel.

[Jason]

That's a section of Can't Wait Too Long, I believe. Mislabelled as a stereo mix of the fade of H&V.

[guitarfool2002]

Listen to take 5 of Wind Chimes on SOT 17, around 2:41, there's a mystery section that later reappeared on Brian Wilson Presents Smile. This section never appeared on any other take, nor Brian's edit, which leads me to believe it was never seriously considered. For all we know, it could have been a jam.

Mark Linett mentioned this longer take of Wind Chimes back in 1995, where it goes "soft-loud, soft-loud" twice unlike the box set. But it can't be assumed it was "a jam", since everything that the musicians are playing is the same music box theme as heard before, and variations of that theme.

Would you agree that the basic theme heard in that mystery section is musically related to those parts Brian overdubbed on multiple pianos and even the parts heard in that take? The piano stays basically the same - all that changes is the bass and guitar lines playing in harmony above - which if they're harmonizing and repeating lines, it wouldn't be a jam. It sounds like something he wrote for the arrangement.

[Jason]

Absolutely, it does sound like the aforementioned sections. But we all know how prone Brian was to changing his mind. I happen to like the section. Darian must've played it for Brian when they were researching the music in 2003.

[guitarfool2002]

Something else to consider about Brian changing his mind. (It's been awhile since I've had any SOT 17 discussions, so I'm a little slow... )

That Wind Chimes take 5 you're talking about - Brian absolutely changed his mind, and actually changed the entire construction of the track, if my ears and memory is correct. On that same SOT 17 disc, listen to track 8 labeled 'Wind Chimes (1st vocal overdub)'.

Instead of having the musicians in the studio playing those multiple piano parts live with the other musicians as he did on "take 5", listen around 1:42 for what sounds like an obvious tape edit. Then we hear what i believe is Brian himself stacking and overdubbing the various piano parts himself, on different pianos, both regular and tack, reverbed and dry. I'm sure this section is the one famously described by Vosse in both the Teen Set article describing the session itself where Brian did this, and in his Fusion interview.

So the backing track itself changed from a full, beginning-to-end live performance in the studio to a more modular piece with the different sections edited together. Not uncommon.

I'm still wondering if the version Vosse described in the Fusion article is something we've heard, or something that's been lost. What was the verdict on that from last year when he showed up for a few weeks answering questions? My memory is fading... 

[Bicyclerider]

"I don't have a copy, but know people who do"

Right.  Post one of those people's Surf's Up Second Movement track while you're at it.

[Jason]

If I had it, do you think I would give it to you? You, sir, have a bad attitude and bad info.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

I think the version Vosse spoke of was the same, although the “rough edit” that still had the count-ins and such. He mentions “voices dropping in” or something, which I think describes the loud part pretty well. Others interpreted that as Brian intentionally leaving in a count in, which doesn't hold up when you see that all the Smile edits were very rough and sloppy...

The ending of the early version of Wind Chimes is certainly a well-defined part and was surely preconceived. The only reason it isn’t on the other takes was that the takes didn’t get that far. And I don't think all the takes are included on SOT anyway....

I don’t know why he dropped it, since it was a nice part. Who knows why he did anything he did? He was nuts. Why a sudden piano break? Did he have a plan for it to link into another part of the Elements, thus he knew the piano part would have to remain open to link up to something else…

Is the "piano piece" really the Air Section, that would lead to Fire and Water Chant?

Who knows?

[Bicyclerider]

I just don't like to see statements like Linnett followed a 1966 Brian mono mix of Wind Chimes to reconstruct the box set version go unchallenged - when they're wrong and there is no extant 1966 Brian mono mix.  If you have some proof of this, please share or private message me - butr to present your opinion as fact is to mislead those on the board who don't know better.  Same goes for this illusory Brian tape of the H & V "sections" that Mark followed for the box set as well.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

With Wind Chimes, there really isn't any other way to mix it, is there? It's all layed out. Just like Cabinessence.

H&V Part II is another story. Who knows what the frick that thing is supposed to be? Mark said he listened to studio chatter to determine how it would go.

This sort of thing is very frustrating. Nothing worse than trying to follow the logic of a bunch of stoners in a recording studio.

[Jason]

I just don't like to see statements like Linnett followed a 1966 Brian mono mix of Wind Chimes to reconstruct the box set version go unchallenged - when they're wrong and there is no extant 1966 Brian mono mix.  If you have some proof of this, please share or private message me - butr to present your opinion as fact is to mislead those on the board who don't know better.  Same goes for this illusory Brian tape of the H & V "sections" that Mark followed for the box set as well.

You need to read my posts a little more carefully before you come out attacking me, sir. I don't think you deserve an explanation after you attacked me, but I'll give one anyway just to set the record straight.

First off, methinks you need to throw away Domenic Priore's research.

I said this - "I know no Brian mono mixdown of Wind Chimes has surfaced, but one exists. The multi-track edit exists too, which is what Mr. Linett used."

I never said Linett used a mono mix, it couldn't be FOUND. Do you know how many recordings have been stolen from the band ever since the 80s? Smile tapes and acetates rank pretty high on that list. A goodly portion of it has become the bootlegs we all know and love.

There are many Heroes and Villains comp edit tapes in the vaults. Some of them have leaked. If my memory serves me right, Mark Linett found one in his research that had all the sections that might have constituted Heroes and Villains, Part II. The first four sections of the "sections" mix on the box set were edited on top of the Part II mix by Mark.