The Smiley Smile Message Board

What out-of-the-ordinary sections have you heard in fan reconstructions of Heroes And Villains, and where in the song did they occur?

I heard of one that put the 'intro' from the boxed set after "You're under arrest!"  That actually sounded like a pretty good idea... sort of like a madcap Keystone Cops-type chase in the middle of the song.

I heard one that placed the entire album internally inside H&V. Little sections between each track, framed by the acetate up to Cantina, then Sunny down at the finale. Way cool.

That sounds like it would work... I'll try to track that one down.

I take back my thought that inserting "Fire" would sound cool... I just stuck "Heroes And Villains Intro" after 'you're under arrest', and it sounds horrible there!

No way, man! I've done that and it sounds groovy. The "bag of tricks" version sounds even better in there.

Yeah I also did that at one time. I think it sounds quite good.
BTW I always tried to use the "horn intro" (which you hear as as link between "aum-di-di-wa-da" and the starting of the actual "H&V" on BWPS) as a "intro" to "Surf's Up". I think that sounds cool...

I've heard a rumor that there is a twelve minute version of Heros and villans out there somewhere. Any truth to this?

No.
Except for fan edits.

I know a guy who put together an extended mix that included the silly laugh from "She's Goin' Bald." He said yeah, it doesn't really belong there, but he thought it was a nice fit...I forgot what section he put that over, but it was an interesting fit...

What is this, 1990?

That 12 minute stuff is damn exciting to the SMiLE new fan.

At that early stage you're not aware that it's just tons of sections broken up that could potentially equal around 12 minutes. It sounds like it would be something else.

Oh, you old-timer, you.

Dumb Angel, we were all new once, don't get discouraged.  :)

I'd love to hear a 12-minute "Heroes", if it wasn't just all a bunch of random segments taped together (like the 10-minute variations on bootlegs). 

How is that 15-minute "Good Vibrations" on the one Smile mix?? 

I'm more of a fan of the 45 second H&V.

Is that the one ending with "in the town of the heroes and aah aah aah aah aah aah aah aah aaaaaah"?

This sounds like a great idea. I have been wondering recently, is the H & V sections on The GV Box something that was put together separately from Brian? I.e. all the extraneous H & V stuff put together by an engineer specifically for the boxset without Brian's input or what? I thought I had read this but I can't find the boxset book where it probably mentions it at the moment. I'm curious as I'm trying to sequence my own Smile mix and it always bugs me as to where put the H & V sections. If it's just a compilation of fragments then it would make sense for me to just scatter them throughout ...

A big chunk of the H&V sections track was indeed sequenced by BW on acetate in 67. From the Gee section continuing about 3 and a half minutes. Linett included this in proper order inside the bigg track which he compiled, originally for the mooted SMiLE release in 1988, then refined it for the box.

Hey this is great to know - thanks a lot.

Ian - you seem to be pretty clued up about this stuff. What's your opinion on the Can't Wait too long snippet that has the accapella intro, then the handclaps and the ooh ooh bit? It was talked about a bit in the Alan Boyd thread. To me it sounds totally Smile-era and feels like an earlier conception of the other CWTL stuff available.

Unfortunately I have no info on that to share, but I agree that it most likely is the earliest CWTL recording. A demo, to my ears.
It sounds more in the post SMiLEY back to the piano compositional mode of Honey to my ears, but I hear a lot of modal SMiLE tendencies as well. The song is a perfect meld of the dizzying SMiLE sound-movement-collage style and Honey's simpler and earthier R&B-pop tendencies.

That is actually a BW acetate of work done on the song during the Wild Honey era.

Seems like a pretty early acetate.

VERY early, my friend. November or December 1967. A lot of the important sections were actually cut during the Friends era.

That is actually a BW acetate of work done on the song during the Wild Honey era.

Are you sure about this? I was so convinced it was Smile stuff, I feel disappointed! It just sounds so fresh and natural. The ooh bits remind me of barnyard - I've put it in my Smile mix and it's one of my favourite bits!

Can't Wait Too Long was tracked on and off between November 1967 and June 1968, during Wild Honey and Friends. It is NOT a Smile track.

Yeah, DEFINITELY not SMiLE. It has far too much of a piano rockin' groove to be from the SMiLE period of creativity.
The Friends-era CWTL stuff sounds more SMiLE-y and modular. Great stuff, in any form.

Thanks for clearing it up. I knew CWTL was a post smile track but I'd always wondered if this segment was an early prototype that was recorded during Smile. Anyway I believe you - it's such a beautiful vocal bit though do you not think? Makes me wonder why he didn't use it for the more polished recording.

There are some sessions for Can't Wait Too Long on SOT 19, the Wild Honey set. They're very bare-bones. None of the Friends-era sessions for CWTL have surfaced, however. But a lot of the vocals were done during the Friends era. The more sunny sections were done then as well.

Yep, same deal for GV and H&V! Many unbelievable sections lost. hard to know what would have figured in the final track as it was abandoned. The released long mix is a Linett creation.

The Friends-era session tapes are missing, but the sections have been released.

You know, there's an era that's rarely covered in Beach Boys music, namely, the modular music Brian was composing after Smile. Cool Cool Water, Can't Wait Too Long, the cover of Ol' Man River, some unknown instrumentals. I wonder if there's any more of this stuff that could find a way out.

I'd add Diamond Head and Break Away to that list as well.
Maybe Sail Plane Song too.

I haven't heard those sessions. I heard the bit I'm talking about tagged onto the end of the more familiar CWTL from the Odeon bootleg I think. Somebody on the board also mentioned that the same part is on the Gema bootleg but has the rest of the song following it. Are there any other takes/sessions that are similar i.e. accapella and really early sounding?

Yeah, that's from one of the earliest Smile bootlegs, sourced from a November 1967 acetate recording.

There is an a cappella mix of a section of CWTL on the second disc of Hawthorne, CA. There is an a cappella fragment of the track on Get the Boot, it's very short. Along with the sessions on SOT 19 (which are mostly Brian working out the chord progression of one section on the piano, then overdubbing), there are some stereo mixes of the material on the Archaeology set.

I heard Breakaway vocals only recently and it amazed me just how beautiful it sounded. I've always liked the song but acapella it knocked me out!

Yes, the song had a lot more potential instrumentally that Brian did not have the motivation to explore. Still a brilliant cut!

Break Away a cappella is amazing. You should hear the backing track isolated. Beautiful.

Ian, interesting contribution with adding Sail Plane Song and Diamond Head to my list of modular tracks. I totally see those as well. But I wonder how much of Diamond Head was Brian's.

I think he sewed together the bits given him by the musicians. But the construction could be no one else but Brian. Whereas the modular nature of This Whole World is clearly toned down and assembled by Carl. The Spring cut of This Whole World is far more Brian, even if Desper co-produced it.

Exactly, I agree 100%. Great post, man.

A big chunk of the H&V sections track was indeed sequenced by BW on acetate in 67. From the Gee section continuing about 3 and a half minutes. Linett included this in proper order inside the bigg track which he compiled, originally for the mooted SMiLE release in 1988, then refined it for the box.

Sorry should have bought this up at the time: So running from Gee (about 2.22) right up to the start of the False Barnyard (5.41) was sequenced by Brian in 67? Any ideas why he sequenced this - was it for the Heroes B-Side? Thanks

From my understanding, yes, that mix was done with the intention of it being the B-side to H&V...this was a part of the master tape Brian withheld from Capital in March after the lawsuit.  Obviously the idea didnt stick too long but I thought it was a cool idea. 

I always thought the Odeon H&V is the best. It combines most of the known sections and none of it sounds out of place. So I actually think that version was how H&V is meant to be eventually finished. Its almost 11 minutes long.

I don't think so. Heroes and Villains isn't progressive rock, for crying out loud!

Did anyone else ever see the Odeon "Smile" in a normal music store??  I got mine in just a plain old store, and they had multiple copies of it!!

I love that CD... covers most of the bases, and the cover is kickass.  Good for "Smile" beginners like me; I wasn't really a BB's fan at the time, but recently bought Brian's "Smile" just to hear what the fuss was about... and I was converted  ;D

This H & V acetate sequenced by Brian is news to me - there was no such acetate used by Mark Linnett to sequence the box set "sections" piece.  We can ask Mark on this site for confirmation of this.  My understanding is that they used the Desper H & V compilation tape, which compiled the sections in the same order as was used on the box set, but which had no input from Brian.

There is, on the Sea of Tunes Smile set, a rough mono mix of some of the sections used on the box set, but it's not the same as the box set sections piece.

Brian had to have made a tape copy of this mix that Mark Linett was able to recreate. Wind Chimes received similar treatment, it received a mono mixdown by Brian in 1966, which Linett remixed and recombined for the box set.

Most of Brian's 1966-67 Smile edits that have leaked are very sloppy edits, Mark just cleaned them up and smoothed the transitions.

Dr. Unh, I'm not sure where you're getting all this info, but some of it is erroneous.  There is no Brian mono Wind Chimes mixdown that has surfaced.  There is a multitrack assembly of the parts as represented on the Linnett version, done in 1966, but with an internal countdown between sections that Mark edited out.  No 1966 mono mix.  (I'm certain there was a mono mix done by Brian, based on Mike Vosse's Fusion interview description of same - which sounds distinctly different from the box set reconstruction).

I repeat, Brian did not make a tape copy of the box set "sections" mix - not one that has come to light.  The only "part 2" type mix we have is the one on the Sea of Tunes set.  It did not include many of the sections on the box set version.

I know no Brian mono mixdown of Wind Chimes has surfaced, but one exists. The multi-track edit exists too, which is what Mr. Linett used.


Just because it hasn't been leaked doesn't mean that Brian never made one. There's a lot of Smile stuff that no one here has ever heard, including me. Those "part 2" mixes on SOT 17 are from work tapes, they were most likely due to be erased.

Been Way Too Long/Can't Wait Too Long was actually started in late October 1967, and first recorded at Wally Heider's studio. The later 1968 sessions, which have a larger band if you listen for the sonic differences on the various fragments and edits, were cut at the home studio. What remains interesting to me is to note which songs in late October/early November 1967 were recorded at Wally Heider's versus Brian's home. I've always wondered exactly what was going on there, because the Heider recordings could be the most "Smile-like" of anything Brian was cutting at that time, or at least they showed more of Brian's musical innovations than what he was recording with the Boys at that same time.

It has been a few years and I really don't recall - has anyone ever answered that question with a definitive answer?

We had a cool thread about the song's history on the board about 2-3 years ago. I'd repost it but a lot of it was lost from my 'archives', and I don't know if that old thread still exists somewhere.

There was a time when GEMA Smile was one of the few disc sources for that Wild Honey/Smiley sounding fragment of Been Way Too Long. That fragment is one of my favorites.

"I know no Brian mono mixdown of Wind Chimes has surfaced, but one exists"

Where? If you have a copy, please send it to Alan Boyd who has been going through the Beach Boys tqpe archive and has yet to find this item.

The same goes for the sections mix.  "Just because it hasn't been leaked doesn't mean that Brian never made one. There's a lot of Smile stuff that no one here has ever heard, including me."  OK, so no one has ever heard this, including Alan Boyd and Mark Linnett, it's not in the tape archive per Alan Boyd, but it still might exist?  I mean, anything you postulate MIGHT exist, but the evidence in this case doesn't support that it exists.

I don't have a copy, but know people who do. There are a good number of Beach Boys tapes that aren't in the tape library, the victims of thievery.

What's the deal with "Wind Chimes" on the box set?  I was surprised to find out, through people here, that that was apparently Brian's mix.

It's a smoothed-out (by Linett) version of a multi-track edit made by Brian in September 1966.

Okay, thanks Jason.

Yeah, the one with the counts in between sections.
If you have Project SMiLE, the acetate's on there somewhere.

Okay, so that's on SOT 17?  But it was Brian's decision to remove the bridge, correct?

Yes, that track is on SOT 17. It's missing a double-tracked vocal, but luckily for us, Linett found the vocal sessions and was able to reconstruct the vocal.

I believe so, but I am willing to be corrected.

The bridge doesn't exist on the multi-track edit. I don't think Brian ever seriously considered it. It shows up on SOT 17 in one of the numbered takes. Take 5, to be exact.

Okay.  Isn't it mixed in with "Heroes and Villains" on the first disc, too?

Not to my knowledge.

You don't think Brian ever considered what?

The bridge as a part of Wind Chimes.

How did you arrive at that conclusion, that Brian didn't seriously consider that bridge a part Wind Chimes?

It doesn't show up on the same multi-track edit that Brian made that Mark Linett used for his reconstruction. If anything, what we know as the bridge was just a jam, because it only shows up in take 5 of Wind Chimes in August 1966. Not sure what day, exactly.

Okay, just to clarify - what part of Wind Chimes, or what section, are you hearing as the bridge?

Listen to take 5 of Wind Chimes on SOT 17, around 2:41, there's a mystery section that later reappeared on Brian Wilson Presents Smile. This section never appeared on any other take, nor Brian's edit, which leads me to believe it was never seriously considered. For all we know, it could have been a jam.

You're right.  I was getting confused with track 12 on disc 1, which has a similar feel.

That's a section of Can't Wait Too Long, I believe. Mislabelled as a stereo mix of the fade of H&V.

Mark Linett mentioned this longer take of Wind Chimes back in 1995, where it goes "soft-loud, soft-loud" twice unlike the box set. But it can't be assumed it was "a jam", since everything that the musicians are playing is the same music box theme as heard before, and variations of that theme.

Would you agree that the basic theme heard in that mystery section is musically related to those parts Brian overdubbed on multiple pianos and even the parts heard in that take? The piano stays basically the same - all that changes is the bass and guitar lines playing in harmony above - which if they're harmonizing and repeating lines, it wouldn't be a jam. It sounds like something he wrote for the arrangement.

Absolutely, it does sound like the aforementioned sections. But we all know how prone Brian was to changing his mind. I happen to like the section. Darian must've played it for Brian when they were researching the music in 2003.

Something else to consider about Brian changing his mind. (It's been awhile since I've had any SOT 17 discussions, so I'm a little slow... ;))

That Wind Chimes take 5 you're talking about - Brian absolutely changed his mind, and actually changed the entire construction of the track, if my ears and memory is correct. On that same SOT 17 disc, listen to track 8 labeled 'Wind Chimes (1st vocal overdub)'.

Instead of having the musicians in the studio playing those multiple piano parts live with the other musicians as he did on "take 5", listen around 1:42 for what sounds like an obvious tape edit. Then we hear what i believe is Brian himself stacking and overdubbing the various piano parts himself, on different pianos, both regular and tack, reverbed and dry. I'm sure this section is the one famously described by Vosse in both the Teen Set article describing the session itself where Brian did this, and in his Fusion interview.

So the backing track itself changed from a full, beginning-to-end live performance in the studio to a more modular piece with the different sections edited together. Not uncommon.

I'm still wondering if the version Vosse described in the Fusion article is something we've heard, or something that's been lost. What was the verdict on that from last year when he showed up for a few weeks answering questions? My memory is fading... 

"I don't have a copy, but know people who do"

Right.  Post one of those people's Surf's Up Second Movement track while you're at it.

If I had it, do you think I would give it to you? You, sir, have a bad attitude and bad info.

I think the version Vosse spoke of was the same, although the “rough edit” that still had the count-ins and such. He mentions “voices dropping in” or something, which I think describes the loud part pretty well. Others interpreted that as Brian intentionally leaving in a count in, which doesn't hold up when you see that all the Smile edits were very rough and sloppy...

The ending of the early version of Wind Chimes is certainly a well-defined part and was surely preconceived. The only reason it isn’t on the other takes was that the takes didn’t get that far. And I don't think all the takes are included on SOT anyway....

I don’t know why he dropped it, since it was a nice part. Who knows why he did anything he did? He was nuts. Why a sudden piano break? Did he have a plan for it to link into another part of the Elements, thus he knew the piano part would have to remain open to link up to something else…

Is the "piano piece" really the Air Section, that would lead to Fire and Water Chant?

Who knows?

I just don't like to see statements like Linnett followed a 1966 Brian mono mix of Wind Chimes to reconstruct the box set version go unchallenged - when they're wrong and there is no extant 1966 Brian mono mix.  If you have some proof of this, please share or private message me - butr to present your opinion as fact is to mislead those on the board who don't know better.  Same goes for this illusory Brian tape of the H & V "sections" that Mark followed for the box set as well.

With Wind Chimes, there really isn't any other way to mix it, is there? It's all layed out. Just like Cabinessence.

H&V Part II is another story. Who knows what the frick that thing is supposed to be? Mark said he listened to studio chatter to determine how it would go.

This sort of thing is very frustrating. Nothing worse than trying to follow the logic of a bunch of stoners in a recording studio.

You need to read my posts a little more carefully before you come out attacking me, sir. I don't think you deserve an explanation after you attacked me, but I'll give one anyway just to set the record straight.

First off, methinks you need to throw away Domenic Priore's research.

I said this - "I know no Brian mono mixdown of Wind Chimes has surfaced, but one exists. The multi-track edit exists too, which is what Mr. Linett used."

I never said Linett used a mono mix, it couldn't be FOUND. Do you know how many recordings have been stolen from the band ever since the 80s? Smile tapes and acetates rank pretty high on that list. A goodly portion of it has become the bootlegs we all know and love.

There are many Heroes and Villains comp edit tapes in the vaults. Some of them have leaked. If my memory serves me right, Mark Linett found one in his research that had all the sections that might have constituted Heroes and Villains, Part II. The first four sections of the "sections" mix on the box set were edited on top of the Part II mix by Mark.

I really don't want to get into a pissing match - we can all be civil here, I'm attacking what you're saying, not you - after all, I don't know you.  It just seemed to me that you were presupposing knowledge of acetates and mixes which no other BB "experts" like Alan, Mark, Peter, or Bob Hanes have any knowledge of.  You said "Wind Chimes received similar treatment, it received a mono mixdown by Brian in 1966, which Linett remixed and recombined for the box set."  That makes it sound like Mark remixed and recombined Wind Chimes from a Brian mono mix - if that's not what you meant, as you now say, then I guess I just misunderstood you. 

The Heroes and Villains comp tape you are referring to (that was the source of the H & V Pts. 1 & 2 sessions boot)was not put together by Brian, as had been assumed for a number of years, but by Stephen Desper and Carl Wilson when they were compiling and copying SMile tapes for a proposed 1972 release of the album.  Brian was not participating in this effort in any way - so I don't know if you can read anything into the assembly order of the H & V pieces on that tape.  I guess Carl and Stephen must have decided what order to put the fragments in - whether it was deliberately ordered so as to construct a long Heroes piece for the album, or just to preserve the fragments to be assessed and rearranged later on the eventual album, I don't know.  We should probably ask Stephen, but besides acknowledging that any such comp tape would have been assembled by himself and Carl, not Brian, I don't think he has any specific memory of the contents of the tape.  No one knows what Brian had in mind for Heroes and Villains Part 2, if such a thing existed (meaning the second side of a single).  We know there was a five to six minute version of the song that likely incorporated some of the sections we're talking about, but we don't know which ones or in what order.  One example of where the "sections" mix is certainly wrong:  "prelude to fade" is at the start of the song rather than preceeding the end/fade/tag.  We can argue what Part 2 was or wasn't - but there wasn't a Brian sequenced tape that Mark worked from is all I'm saying.

Well then I stand corrected. I'm keeping this civil.