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Author Topic: Odd "Heroes And Villains" sections??  (Read 17704 times)
Jason
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2006, 05:37:30 PM »

There are some sessions for Can't Wait Too Long on SOT 19, the Wild Honey set. They're very bare-bones. None of the Friends-era sessions for CWTL have surfaced, however. But a lot of the vocals were done during the Friends era. The more sunny sections were done then as well.
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2006, 05:40:37 PM »

Thanks for clearing it up. I knew CWTL was a post smile track but I'd always wondered if this segment was an early prototype that was recorded during Smile. Anyway I believe you - it's such a beautiful vocal bit though do you not think? Makes me wonder why he didn't use it for the more polished recording.

Yep, same deal for GV and H&V! Many unbelievable sections lost. hard to know what would have figured in the final track as it was abandoned. The released long mix is a Linett creation.

The Friends-era session tapes are missing, but the sections have been released.
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Jason
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2006, 05:42:09 PM »

You know, there's an era that's rarely covered in Beach Boys music, namely, the modular music Brian was composing after Smile. Cool Cool Water, Can't Wait Too Long, the cover of Ol' Man River, some unknown instrumentals. I wonder if there's any more of this stuff that could find a way out.
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2006, 05:43:48 PM »

I'd add Diamond Head and Break Away to that list as well.
Maybe Sail Plane Song too.
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2006, 05:43:58 PM »

There are some sessions for Can't Wait Too Long on SOT 19, the Wild Honey set. They're very bare-bones. None of the Friends-era sessions for CWTL have surfaced, however. But a lot of the vocals were done during the Friends era. The more sunny sections were done then as well.

I haven't heard those sessions. I heard the bit I'm talking about tagged onto the end of the more familiar CWTL from the Odeon bootleg I think. Somebody on the board also mentioned that the same part is on the Gema bootleg but has the rest of the song following it. Are there any other takes/sessions that are similar i.e. accapella and really early sounding?
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Jason
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« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2006, 05:47:13 PM »


I haven't heard those sessions. I heard the bit I'm talking about tagged onto the end of the more familiar CWTL from the Odeon bootleg I think. Somebody on the board also mentioned that the same part is on the Gema bootleg but has the rest of the song following it. Are there any other takes/sessions that are similar i.e. accapella and really early sounding?

Yeah, that's from one of the earliest Smile bootlegs, sourced from a November 1967 acetate recording.

There is an a cappella mix of a section of CWTL on the second disc of Hawthorne, CA. There is an a cappella fragment of the track on Get the Boot, it's very short. Along with the sessions on SOT 19 (which are mostly Brian working out the chord progression of one section on the piano, then overdubbing), there are some stereo mixes of the material on the Archaeology set.
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buddhahat
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« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2006, 05:47:31 PM »

I'd add Diamond Head and Break Away to that list as well.
Maybe Sail Plane Song too.

I heard Breakaway vocals only recently and it amazed me just how beautiful it sounded. I've always liked the song but acapella it knocked me out!
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« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2006, 05:49:30 PM »

Yes, the song had a lot more potential instrumentally that Brian did not have the motivation to explore. Still a brilliant cut!
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Jason
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« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2006, 05:51:11 PM »

Break Away a cappella is amazing. You should hear the backing track isolated. Beautiful.

Ian, interesting contribution with adding Sail Plane Song and Diamond Head to my list of modular tracks. I totally see those as well. But I wonder how much of Diamond Head was Brian's.
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« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2006, 05:56:06 PM »

I think he sewed together the bits given him by the musicians. But the construction could be no one else but Brian. Whereas the modular nature of This Whole World is clearly toned down and assembled by Carl. The Spring cut of This Whole World is far more Brian, even if Desper co-produced it.
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Jason
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« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2006, 05:58:35 PM »

Exactly, I agree 100%. Great post, man.
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« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2006, 12:49:59 PM »

Quote
A big chunk of the H&V sections track was indeed sequenced by BW on acetate in 67. From the Gee section continuing about 3 and a half minutes. Linett included this in proper order inside the bigg track which he compiled, originally for the mooted SMiLE release in 1988, then refined it for the box.
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Sorry should have bought this up at the time: So running from Gee (about 2.22) right up to the start of the False Barnyard (5.41) was sequenced by Brian in 67? Any ideas why he sequenced this - was it for the Heroes B-Side? Thanks
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« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2006, 02:02:42 PM »

From my understanding, yes, that mix was done with the intention of it being the B-side to H&V...this was a part of the master tape Brian withheld from Capital in March after the lawsuit.  Obviously the idea didnt stick too long but I thought it was a cool idea. 
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« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2006, 03:30:01 PM »

I always thought the Odeon H&V is the best. It combines most of the known sections and none of it sounds out of place. So I actually think that version was how H&V is meant to be eventually finished. Its almost 11 minutes long.
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Jason
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« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2006, 03:30:55 PM »

I don't think so. Heroes and Villains isn't progressive rock, for crying out loud!
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« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2006, 08:27:03 PM »

Did anyone else ever see the Odeon "Smile" in a normal music store??  I got mine in just a plain old store, and they had multiple copies of it!!

I love that CD... covers most of the bases, and the cover is kickass.  Good for "Smile" beginners like me; I wasn't really a BB's fan at the time, but recently bought Brian's "Smile" just to hear what the fuss was about... and I was converted  Grin
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« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2006, 07:52:41 AM »

This H & V acetate sequenced by Brian is news to me - there was no such acetate used by Mark Linnett to sequence the box set "sections" piece.  We can ask Mark on this site for confirmation of this.  My understanding is that they used the Desper H & V compilation tape, which compiled the sections in the same order as was used on the box set, but which had no input from Brian.

There is, on the Sea of Tunes Smile set, a rough mono mix of some of the sections used on the box set, but it's not the same as the box set sections piece.
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Jason
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« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2006, 07:55:29 AM »

Brian had to have made a tape copy of this mix that Mark Linett was able to recreate. Wind Chimes received similar treatment, it received a mono mixdown by Brian in 1966, which Linett remixed and recombined for the box set.

Most of Brian's 1966-67 Smile edits that have leaked are very sloppy edits, Mark just cleaned them up and smoothed the transitions.
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« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2006, 08:43:19 AM »

Dr. Unh, I'm not sure where you're getting all this info, but some of it is erroneous.  There is no Brian mono Wind Chimes mixdown that has surfaced.  There is a multitrack assembly of the parts as represented on the Linnett version, done in 1966, but with an internal countdown between sections that Mark edited out.  No 1966 mono mix.  (I'm certain there was a mono mix done by Brian, based on Mike Vosse's Fusion interview description of same - which sounds distinctly different from the box set reconstruction).

I repeat, Brian did not make a tape copy of the box set "sections" mix - not one that has come to light.  The only "part 2" type mix we have is the one on the Sea of Tunes set.  It did not include many of the sections on the box set version.
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Jason
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« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2006, 08:52:37 AM »

Dr. Unh, I'm not sure where you're getting all this info, but some of it is erroneous.  There is no Brian mono Wind Chimes mixdown that has surfaced.  There is a multitrack assembly of the parts as represented on the Linnett version, done in 1966, but with an internal countdown between sections that Mark edited out.  No 1966 mono mix.  (I'm certain there was a mono mix done by Brian, based on Mike Vosse's Fusion interview description of same - which sounds distinctly different from the box set reconstruction).

I know no Brian mono mixdown of Wind Chimes has surfaced, but one exists. The multi-track edit exists too, which is what Mr. Linett used.

I repeat, Brian did not make a tape copy of the box set "sections" mix - not one that has come to light.  The only "part 2" type mix we have is the one on the Sea of Tunes set.  It did not include many of the sections on the box set version.

Just because it hasn't been leaked doesn't mean that Brian never made one. There's a lot of Smile stuff that no one here has ever heard, including me. Those "part 2" mixes on SOT 17 are from work tapes, they were most likely due to be erased.
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« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2006, 09:33:04 AM »

Been Way Too Long/Can't Wait Too Long was actually started in late October 1967, and first recorded at Wally Heider's studio. The later 1968 sessions, which have a larger band if you listen for the sonic differences on the various fragments and edits, were cut at the home studio. What remains interesting to me is to note which songs in late October/early November 1967 were recorded at Wally Heider's versus Brian's home. I've always wondered exactly what was going on there, because the Heider recordings could be the most "Smile-like" of anything Brian was cutting at that time, or at least they showed more of Brian's musical innovations than what he was recording with the Boys at that same time.

It has been a few years and I really don't recall - has anyone ever answered that question with a definitive answer?

We had a cool thread about the song's history on the board about 2-3 years ago. I'd repost it but a lot of it was lost from my 'archives', and I don't know if that old thread still exists somewhere.

There was a time when GEMA Smile was one of the few disc sources for that Wild Honey/Smiley sounding fragment of Been Way Too Long. That fragment is one of my favorites.
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« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2006, 10:14:47 AM »

"I know no Brian mono mixdown of Wind Chimes has surfaced, but one exists"

Where? If you have a copy, please send it to Alan Boyd who has been going through the Beach Boys tqpe archive and has yet to find this item.

The same goes for the sections mix.  "Just because it hasn't been leaked doesn't mean that Brian never made one. There's a lot of Smile stuff that no one here has ever heard, including me."  OK, so no one has ever heard this, including Alan Boyd and Mark Linnett, it's not in the tape archive per Alan Boyd, but it still might exist?  I mean, anything you postulate MIGHT exist, but the evidence in this case doesn't support that it exists.
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Jason
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« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2006, 10:16:33 AM »

"I know no Brian mono mixdown of Wind Chimes has surfaced, but one exists"

Where? If you have a copy, please send it to Alan Boyd who has been going through the Beach Boys tqpe archive and has yet to find this item.

The same goes for the sections mix.  "Just because it hasn't been leaked doesn't mean that Brian never made one. There's a lot of Smile stuff that no one here has ever heard, including me."  OK, so no one has ever heard this, including Alan Boyd and Mark Linnett, it's not in the tape archive per Alan Boyd, but it still might exist?  I mean, anything you postulate MIGHT exist, but the evidence in this case doesn't support that it exists.

I don't have a copy, but know people who do. There are a good number of Beach Boys tapes that aren't in the tape library, the victims of thievery.
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Chris D.
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« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2006, 10:19:57 AM »

What's the deal with "Wind Chimes" on the box set?  I was surprised to find out, through people here, that that was apparently Brian's mix.
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Jason
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« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2006, 10:21:07 AM »

It's a smoothed-out (by Linett) version of a multi-track edit made by Brian in September 1966.
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