Love it, or Leaf it?

[grillo]

Ever since I first got into the BB, which was @ '84, I have strongly disliked Mike Love. Why? Well, you all know the answer.  But now I'm starting to think I've been tricked. Leaf and Gaines were the first guys I read, and they paint a picture of Mike as a total ass. I agree that he seems extremely short-sighted, artisticly speeking, and comes across in interviews as an egomaniac and revisionist, which he probably is. Still, there is evidence that he at least thinks he is doing the right thing (Like in that Maury Povich piece from '91) and has genuine love for his cousins. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE BW and was even named after him by my all too cool mom, but I am wondering who is the real revisionist, Love or Leaf?

[Cam Mott]

"Been tricked"...hmmmm...interesting theory.  Really attitudes toward Mike have changed a lot in the past few years.  I predict that trend will hasten with the release of the Marks' book. Maybe not.

[Dancing Bear]

Leaf and Gaines went for the easy answers. Whole lotta more answers elsewhere, but those are harder to stomach.

[Wilsonista]

Life was more fun when you could freely bash Mikey without getting a reverse backlash.  

Seriously, though, I'm still no fan of his but I do recognize his contributions which were considerable. I guess what I resent is his resentment.  As far as Leaf goes , I don't think he was neccesarily trying to trick you.  And I don;t think you or anyone else was tricked in any way.  David told a version Brian's story that  had validity for the time.  David's agenda  with Brian's legacy is not a bad agenda, IMO.  Brian's music and legacy needed to be stripped of the Hawaiian shirt cheesiness that became associated with the 1980's BB.  Where David has gone wrong, though is downplaying the actual contributions made by the BB. Mike and David have both done more than their fair share of revising.  Mike needs to take his own advice - cool head, warm heart and Leaf needs to step aside from the Brian world. California Myth is important, but I fear he's probably going to further undo the good work that he did do.  Having said all of that , the portrait of Mike that is painted in Catch a Wave might be the most fair done of him in the BB story

[Dancing Bear]

I think Leaf was well intentioned if a bit naive when he 'denounced' Brian's situation in the late 70s. Thirty years later he's at the other side of the fence and he knows things aren't as simple as 'Just let Brian do whatever he wants'.

That's why he should have known better when he made 'Beautiful Dreamer'.

[Zander]

I have a like / loath opinion when it comes to David and Mike, simply put below...

Mike (Pros) - Lead singer, excellent lyricist, upbeat, good frontman, positive
        (Cons) - TM, cheesy, revisionist, sold out, sleazy, narrow minded

David (Pros) -  Got Brian's career back again, loves the music, good PR / marketing man
          (Cons) - Sycophant, cheesy, narrow-minded, revisionist, sold out (the BW doll anyone?)

I think the problem as to why there hasn't been BB's reunion is because David & Mike are similar in their traits / cons, but, David's career now depends on Brian and Mike's doesn't in the sense he doesn't need new Beach Boys material to perform

[MBE]

I have some very strong feelings about this but I do want to maintain my tact. Let me just say that Mike's resentment of Brian was not nearly as present before 1978. Mike went down the wrong road artistically, but Brian isn't artistically infallible either. Brian sure has comeback since 1999, but before that there was 20 years where only the 88 LP really offered some hope. I think Leaf is a member of Brian's version of the Memphis Mafia. Malibu Mafia perhaps .  Seriously though he overreached and forgot that these are real people he is writing about with real feelings. Marilyn, Mike, Al, even Dennis and Carl didn't get a fair shake by the man.  Yes trotting Brian out on stage in the late 70s and early 80s was very much something that he was right to condemn. Yes Brian has had some very regrettable problems caused by a dysfunctional family, but his drug use, overeating, and lack of drive hurt him as much as anyone else ever could. He made the choice to do these things and one of the things I like about him is that he is willing to admit his fault in doing that. I think it's unfair for 1965 suburban kids and their wives to be condemned for not understanding what Brian was going through.

Zander's list is good though I have no problem with TM and would credit Brian and his band for the comeback more then Leaf.

[Zander]

Zander's list is good though I have no problem with TM and would credit Brian and his band for the comeback more then Leaf.

Sorry, should have put "helped" get his career etc, I think TM was just as much a negative as the drugs scene was, i.e. Mike "Holier than Thou" image and attitude

[LostArt]

Yes Brian has had some very regrettable problems caused by a dysfunctional family, but his drug use, overeating, and lack of drive hurt him as much as anyone else ever could. 

Okay, I can understand his drug abuse having a negative effect, and the lack of drive was probably caused by a combination of his illness and his drug abuse, but seriously, what sorts of problems did his overeating cause in regard to making music?

[Zander]

Okay, I can understand his drug abuse having a negative effect, and the lack of drive was probably caused by a combination of his illness and his drug abuse, but seriously, what sorts of problems did his overeating cause in regard to making music?

Not that I'm doctor, but binge eating can't have done him any good. Was Brian morbidly obese? More than likely. Being that overweight would have made him lethargic and morose I would have thought, which wouldn't have been the ingredients needed to compose another Pet Sounds. Not to mention the manic depression and schizophrenia on top of that...

[Bicyclerider]

Well it's not just Leaf who has an anti-Mike bias - virtually all of Brian's collaborators over the years have reported a dislike or negative interactions with him, Jack Riely, contemporaries (like Neil Young when he was in Buffalo Springfield and toured with the  Beach Boys).  Is Mike just misunderstood, by everyone?  When everyone's against you, maybe the problem is with . . . you!  Leaf overstated and oversiimplified his case and that has perhaps led to the revisionist backlash in support of Mike - it is certainly unfair to tell the BB story without giving Mike his due.  But Mike's anger/resentment towards Brian is clear even in recent balanced accounts by Peter Carlin who has no particular axe to grind in the Beach Boys story - just read the interview in the book!  I have no doubt that Mike believes he loves his cousin, and maybe he does - but his actions and words rarely show that love.  It's more a "tough love" for a misbehaving child than an accepting and supportive love.  Mike is not the sole villain in Brian's story and really is not an intentional villain at all, he believes he is doing the right thing when actually it is the wrong thing.

[Dancing Bear]

Mike Love's flaws are there for all to see. It's almost like from some point on he accepted that some fans would always hate him and then started to say the wrong things just to rub them off.

Brian's flaws aren't very apparent. He built the perfect victim character and manipulated Leaf into writing a book about this Brian. He's always doing that under that passive agressive persona, manipulating people, getting rid of best friends when he gets tired of them, making people do the dirty work for him. For example, if he doesn't have more contact with his first family it's because he wants it that way. Surprise! The fans think it's 'Melinda''s fault! Brian is a genius indeed.

Back to Leaf...
Beautiful Dreamer: the director didn't have to give the Beach Boys their due. If the focus was on BWPS as a solo project, fine. It's a great story, but if you're gonna do the laundry, be fair to everyone and don't whitewash only when it suits your agenda. 

[Bicyclerider]

I don't think Brian manipulated anyone into writing a book about him, that's pretty farfetched - the Brian as victim was Leaf's vision, not Brian's.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I have some very strong feelings about this but I do want to maintain my tact. Let me just say that Mike's resentment of Brian was not nearly as present before 1978. Mike went down the wrong road artistically, but Brian isn't artistically infallible either. Brian sure has comeback since 1999, but before that there was 20 years where only the 88 LP really offered some hope. I think Leaf is a member of Brian's version of the Memphis Mafia. Malibu Mafia perhaps .  Seriously though he overreached and forgot that these are real people he is writing about with real feelings. Marilyn, Mike, Al, even Dennis and Carl didn't get a fair shake by the man.  Yes trotting Brian out on stage in the late 70s and early 80s was very much something that he was right to condemn. Yes Brian has had some very regrettable problems caused by a dysfunctional family, but his drug use, overeating, and lack of drive hurt him as much as anyone else ever could. He made the choice to do these things and one of the things I like about him is that he is willing to admit his fault in doing that. I think it's unfair for 1965 suburban kids and their wives to be condemned for not understanding what Brian was going through.

Zander's list is good though I have no problem with TM and would credit Brian and his band for the comeback more then Leaf.

Agree 100%

[Wilsonista]

Well it's not just Leaf who has an anti-Mike bias - virtually all of Brian's collaborators over the years have reported a dislike or negative interactions with him, Jack Riely, contemporaries (like Neil Young when he was in Buffalo Springfield and toured with the  Beach Boys).  Is Mike just misunderstood, by everyone?  When everyone's against you, maybe the problem is with . . . you!  Leaf overstated and oversiimplified his case and that has perhaps led to the revisionist backlash in support of Mike - it is certainly unfair to tell the BB story without giving Mike his due.  But Mike's anger/resentment towards Brian is clear even in recent balanced accounts by Peter Carlin who has no particular axe to grind in the Beach Boys story - just read the interview in the book!  I have no doubt that Mike believes he loves his cousin, and maybe he does - but his actions and words rarely show that love.  It's more a "tough love" for a misbehaving child than an accepting and supportive love.  Mike is not the sole villain in Brian's story and really is not an intentional villain at all, he believes he is doing the right thing when actually it is the wrong thing.

Agreed, 110%!

[Cam Mott]

I don't remember most of Brian's collaborators being too crazy about Brian's behavior and interactions.  I thought Young and Mike were buddies.  We're taking Jack Rielly's word without a block of salt?

One man's revisionist backlash is another man's inching towards reality I suppose.

I bet we'd all be surprised [if we asked] by how little contact or interaction many people who express opinions have had with the subject of their opining.

Anyway, looking forward to the Mark's book.

[Dancing Bear]

I don't remember most of Brian's collaborators being too crazy about Brian's behavior and interactions.  I thought Young and Mike were buddies.  We're taking Jack Rielly's word without a block of salt?

Man, I swear I've read in a BB message board someone blaiming Mike for the Buffalo Springfield split because he was always hanging out with Neil and giving him ideas when they toured together.   

[Dancing Bear]

I don't think Brian manipulated anyone into writing a book about him, that's pretty farfetched - the Brian as victim was Leaf's vision, not Brian's.

Brian didn't force Leaf to write a book, sure. Pardon me for my poor writing skills. But when Leaf arrived at the scene Brian had already perfected his 'victim' act and Leaf bought it. That's what I meant.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I bet we'd all be surprised [if we asked] by how little contact or interaction many people who express opinions have had with the subject of their opining.

Actually, you'd be surprised in some cases how much interaction  people who have expressed opinions have actually had with certain people. I know I was. :/

[Fun Is In]

Don't forget the earlier Leaf:

Earl Leaf spoke about Mike in less than flattering ways in the early 1970s based on his experience with the band in Europe in the 1960s. (See Tom Nolan's Rolling Stone piece.)

On the later Leaf, one of the major flaws of "The Beach Boys and the California Myth" is that the author (like most people) seems to have had little or no knowledge of the real nature of SERIOUS mental illness in general and the specific diagnoses of Brian Wilson in particular.


If you think that Brian was choosing to be weird in 1967 or just doing too many drugs and don't have an understanding of schizoaffective disorder and other schizophreniform brain disorders, you are probably going to place the blame on outside agents, like Mike Love or Murray Wilson.

Certainly, their (Mike and Murray's) misunderstanding of Brian did nothing to help his situation and probably made it worse.

But without Mike Love, the Beach Boys would be, well, you can speculate all day on how  or whether Brian's music would have come to us, but the ONLY way we know of that it did come to us is with the contributions from and interference of Mike Love.

[Sheriff John Stone]

There were rumblings about The Beach Boys' lack of harmony in the 1976 People magazine cover story, and then again in the imfamous September 1977 Rolling Stone article. But David Leaf was the first to devote a BOOK to it. Well, not an entire book.

David Leaf succeeded in laying out the stereotype - Mike is the stick-to-the-formula "Fun Fun Fun" guy and Brian is the progressive tortured artist who was held back - better than anyone. And it stuck. And I believe Leaf's book did have an influence on the Beach Boys' career. Things probably would've eventually come out, but not as quickly.

What bothers me isn't so much that David Leaf made the first heroes and villains book. Like I said, one would've come eventually. What bothers me is that the stereotypes that Leaf laid out are going to last for a long, long time. Beyond all of our lifetimes. The history books that follow will publish these stereotypes. I don't think Mike Love's side will ever be heard. And Mike knows it. That might have a lot to do with his numerous lawsuits. He has/had something to prove. In a court of law, they're called facts. In Beach Boys' biographies, well...   

[Amy B.]

Mike is trying to save his legacy through the lawsuits, but obviously he would achieve that goal better by stopping the lawsuits, which only feed into the stereotype. If I had never read seen Beautiful Dreamer and had only read Mike's own quotes, I would still think he's a jerk. He comes off that way, whether it's true or not. And his actions in court make it worse. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. I can totally see the BBs trying to stop Brian at that time, not because they were evil or vindictive, but because they were scared. And I can see Brian manipulating others and dropping friends, not because he's evil or vindictive, but because he's scared to lose control over people and what little control he still has over himself. There's this to be said about Brian-- I don't think he's ever purposely hurt anyone, has he? But I can only see a jerk suing his own mentally ill cousin and talking about his cousin's mental illness and living situation in interviews, as if he has any right to do that. Maybe it's just that Brian is smart enough to know that you catch more flies with honey, and that's why he'll actually defend Mike's character when asked.

I think it's great the Brian is getting help and seems healthier-- it makes it harder to question those around him. As for David Leaf, I think he's doing more good than harm. Although he may be a revisionist (intentionally or not, since he wasn't there when it happened), he has done a lot to further Brian's musical legacy, and Brian deserves to be celebrated as David presents him- as a great artist.
I also think that Mike needs to get some help. He has his own psychological issues that would be better played out in a therapists' office than on the pages of magazines.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Mike is trying to save his legacy through the lawsuits, but obviously he would achieve that goal better by stopping the lawsuits, which only feed into the stereotype.

I agree that Mike's, and also the other members' lawsuits, hurt the band's legacy. That stigma is also going to "stick", probably forever.

I can totally see the BBs trying to stop Brian at that time, not because they were evil or vindictive, but because they were scared.

I agree again, and that's why I forgive 'em. If I was in their place in 1966-67, I KNOW I would've felt the same way. It's easy to look back at SMiLE with 20/20 hindsight.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Lennon thought Love was a jerk long before David Leaf - as did VDP and Jack Rieley, by all accounts.

[sidewinder572]

I know I'm probably in the minority here, but the demise of SMiLE is nobodys fault except Brians. It was Brian who abandoned the project. Not Mike. If Mike had a problem with the music or lyrics Brian should have taken the time to explain things to him instead of letting other people do the talking (ala Van Dyke). Despite being a great producer and songwriter, I feel that the one thing that hindered Brian was is inabilty to assert his authority and rise to the occasion when the going got tough.