Love it, or Leaf it?

[Joel5001]

I'm so fuckin' tired of the Brian-bashing, revisionist crap that takes place on the Boards these days.  Mike's not the devil, but he ain't the saint Cam's been telling stories about for ten years either.  Why is it hip to downplay Brian's role these days? What a twisted view; guess he's just lucky Mike let him come along for the ride.

[Dancing Bear]

Cam has his flaws, but if not for him we wouldn't have reached a point where even those who have a negative opinion about Mike will say "well, Mike's not the devil, but...". Cam has been shouted at for ten years but he soldiered on and now it's possible to have a dissent opinion without being ganged up by 'those who know better', at least in the Smiley Smile Board. If anyone who thinks there is too much 'Brian-bashing, revisionist crap' feels he's being disrespected by those who disagree, they should notice the moderators, because it ain't cool.

BTW, I have this impression that adamghost is the Adam from the 'Long Promised Road' project. If he's not, I guess my post made no sense whatsoever. 

[Cam Mott]

I try to flaws daily.

At least 3 guys here think I'm an a**hole so it must be true.

[Swamp Pirate]

Cam is not an a-hole.  He's just a hard working guy.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I try to flaws daily.

At least 3 guys here think I'm an a**hole so it must be true.

I don't think you are, dude.

[Joel5001]

I dont think you're an asshole either, Cam.  I just think your desire to give Mike his due has gotten out of hand to the point that you give him credit he doesn't deserve AND you try to discredit Brian in the process.  Just my opinion.  But I really don't think you're an asshole.  You take a lot more abuse than just about anyone in BB fandom without getting nasty back, and I commend you for that.

You're still wrong about Mike though.   

[Exapno Mapcase]

"he doesn't really "get" his own band"

Kinda sums it up, really.

[endofposts]

I know this is late in the thread, but I don't think what kind of person Mike Love is is that pertinent.  Well, it is, but in many ways, not so.  Mike brings people in the tent, and even Brian would say that, even now, with all the hard feelings that have been built up on both sides.   I've only seen the Beach Boys once live, and it was several years ago at a county fair, with just Mike and Bruce in the line-up.  Both the band and Mike gave very subpar performances.  But it didn't matter a whit to the people in the audience.  Plus, Mike's performances on record and his lyrics made a tremendous contribution to spreading the word for Brian Wilson.

Mike isn't necessarily the devil, he just is what he is.  He brings both bad and good to the equation.  I wouldn't want Beach Boys history without him, in spite of his stupid actions at times, or even the fact that he has contributed a lot of bad taste to both the Beach Boys' records and stage act.  When Dennis spoke of the Beach Boys being Brian's messengers, he was including Mike.  And you can't deliver a message without messengers.  Brian would never have done it alone, he doesn't do it alone even now.

[the captain]

In large part, I agree, forget marie.

Nobody is the devil. Nobody is god. As much as creating legends out of pop musicians (or writers or actors or painters or anyone else) seems to be something we like to do, simplifying them into somewhat two-dimensional, if super-human or sub-human, characters, it just isn't real. None of it is real. Granted, that is hard to remember when you get quotes in books, documentaries and so on that seem to tell a different story, but nobody is really two dimensional. Not Mike Love, not David Leaf, not Brian. When the story they tell is two dimensional, it is to sell records, books, and DVDs.

[Jonas]

Great reply, forgetmarie. Im with you!

[MBE]

[Good point about Brian's comments about Carl, too.

What were Brian's comments about Carl?

C'mon, fellas, don't keep me in suspense!

Hi everyone my vpu crashed but I am back. He basically said that Carl couldn't sing. He then says that Carl makes him mad cussed hm out. It was not pretty

[Exapno Mapcase]

Agree entirely.

[MBE]

To add to the above, Brian is a very kind man in 90 percent of the interviews I have heard, read, or seen.
Joel I don''t think anybody wants to bash him, he just isn't qute the victim Leaf protrays him as. He's too smart for one thing. My point hs been that you don't need to put the others down to love Brian.

[Amy B.]

Re: David Leaf-- He loves to add to the myth of Brian Wilson, but this is what many writers do. It's like Peter Schaeffer and Mozart. The difference is that Brian is still alive, and so are many other people in the story.

I recently watched the BW biography that someone posted on Youtube. I think it's the A&E one. Anyway, David Leaf talked about that photo of Brian on Senior Ditch Day in his high school. As Peter Carlin says, Brian was upset in the picture because he didn't realize that the ink on his shirt was disappearing ink, so he's standing a bit apart from everyone and staring at the friend with a bemused expression on his face. Cute story.
But David Leaf points out the photo as a symbol of Brian's place in the BBs and in the world... "He wanted to be part of the group, but he just didn't quite fit in," or whatever he said. He didn't mention the ink on Brian's shirt. That's very writerly of David, I think. He takes material from real life and twists it to fit the symbolism that he has, to some degree, created.  But you know, the documentary makers used that comment. It does make the story more compelling!

[Wilsonista]

One thing that's stunned me  is how many people who live in L.A. have personally interacted with the Beach Boys.  I'm not talking about people I've met through Darian or Alan or music circles, but just random people I work with.  I bring this up because there were two people at the law firm I work at who mentioned that they knew Dennis Wilson personally at one time in their life and both spoke warmly about what a cool guy he was.  One of them also knew Mike Love and volunteered, without any provocation from me whatsoever, "he's an a**hole."  So, obviously, strong impressions were formed about each man.

Another person I know through non-Beach Boys associations but who was around the Beach Boys in the '70s commented to me, again without any provocation, that any time there was trouble in the band, it seemed to come from Mike Love.

I don't know Mike Love, never met him, but the impressions of people who do know him dovetail rather well with each other, as well as with the impressions I've gathered from watching interviews with him.  I think he's done his own legacy and that of his band tremendous damage over the years and he doesn't really "get" his own band, and he's solely focused on the commercial aspect of making music.  If it makes money, it's good.  If it doesn't, it's bad.  With the exception of his narrow philanthropic endeavors and interests (which, in general, don't translate well into song lyrics), that's where it begins and ends with him.

That said, I will offer up one defense of Mike Love:  it has to be difficult to be the one guy that shows up for work every day without fail, and gets the job done, and see all the love and affection being showered on the guys that are, from your perspective, the biggest fodaups and slackers in the band.  Since Mike has, from what I can tell, no real artistic sense whatsoever, that's all the equation is for him.  And it had to be very difficult to be in a band with the Wilsons (and probably with Mike Love, too).

Still, the Mike Love vibe is one I cannot get behind in any way, shape or form.  His cocky vibe was great on the early '60s records, but past that, neither the public or private persona are ones I can relate to at all.

Thank you, Adam.  That's exactly my feeling on Mike Love, only much more articulate.

[Wilsonista]

Cam has his flaws, but if not for him we wouldn't have reached a point where even those who have a negative opinion about Mike will say "well, Mike's not the devil, but...". Cam has been shouted at for ten years but he soldiered on and now it's possible to have a dissent opinion without being ganged up by 'those who know better', at least in the Smiley Smile Board. If anyone who thinks there is too much 'Brian-bashing, revisionist crap' feels he's being disrespected by those who disagree, they should notice the moderators, because it ain't cool.

BTW, I have this impression that adamghost is the Adam from the 'Long Promised Road' project. If he's not, I guess my post made no sense whatsoever. 

You're correct, that post was from Adam Marsland.

[Julia]

Does anyone in the BB world NOT have a negative opinion of Mike Love? Bruce? Carl? (But I'd hazard a guess this is more due to Carl's public neutrality than anything.)

Otherwise we know Tony Asher, VDP, Durrie Parks, apparently Jack Reilly, Brian and wives, Dennis, Al, the Vosse Posse, Three Dog Night and God knows who else have had significant beef with him over the years.

I can only say for myself, I tried to like him multiple times but he always pushes me away. He cant help himself from pompously bragging about his comparatively mediocre accomplishments or knocking others down. Even if you get over how he treated VDP in 66 there's the plane story where he stuck him with the bill. Things like that, where for every negative you let go of, there's five more anecdotes of him being a jerk.

That said, Leaf sometimes rubs me the wrong way too. I don't like how he presents himself as Brian's permanent and public #1 fan, always producing the documentaries, always getting liner notes and essays inserted into official releases, literally sitting in on interviews with Brian and occassionally answering for him. It just feels like he became a handler at some point, controlling how other people will be exposed to the BB rather than letting the group speak for themselves, making sure his narrative is never challenged. I find his presentation style / PR instincts a little corny as well--the cheesy quotes in his new book, the ultra colorful backdrops in the talking head interviews of Beautiful Dreamer, the myth-building instead of fact-finding (someone mentioned a good example above, plus in another thread apparently he was aware of inaccuracies in the H&V premiere story but thought it was too compelling as-relayed to correct the record, etc). Leaf is far better than Priore or some of the other people presuming to be authorities on Brian and SMiLE, but I still prefer it when others like Carlin and Don Was tell the story. Carlin's book didn't feel nearly as schmaltzy as Leaf's output. Was' documentary was so much more enticing with the black and white photography, warts and all presentation plus the 90s indie movie feel compared to Leaf's "focus-grouped corporate-approved version of whimsy" I got from BD. 

And to Cam in case he ever lurks here anymore, I used to find your incessant defenses of Mike very annoying. I recall one poster calling you "the ayatollah of Kokomo" and I admit I burst out laughing. But also you're a great historian who's done tremendous research in the field of the BB and SMiLE--one of the best contributors to the discussion overall--and for that you deserve a ton of praise. Looking back at these old threads, your posts (especially from before I got here) are often a highlight.

[Ian]

In my opinion the best BW release is the two dvd set Brian Wilson Songwriter-which I believe you can watch in its entirety on YouTube. Really well done with Priore, Carlin et al contributing along with insiders and critics-very well done

[JK]

In my opinion the best BW release is the two dvd set Brian Wilson Songwriter-which I believe you can watch in its entirety on YouTube. Really well done with Priore, Carlin et al contributing along with insiders and critics-very well done

Thanks for the heads up, Ian. Here 'tis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSBBLl4g5ZQ

Goodness what a long sit! I shall have to take it in stages.