Nice Overarching Interview with Van Dyke Parks

[Dan Lega]

It's just absolutely mind-blowing the life this man has led!  A career spanning interview, with a few Beach Boys' nuggets thrown in.




https://levidayan.substack.com/p/an-interview-with-van-dyke-parks

[Rocker]

He sure lived an interesting life!


Sad though, that a man of his intellect seems to know not the first thing about the Middle East. But that's a different point. He's obviously no historian.

[18thofMay]

He sure lived an interesting life!


Sad though, that a man of his intellect seems to know not the first thing about the Middle East. But that's a different point. He's obviously no historian.

I put VDP's exact quote from the interview into AI

It sounds like you are navigating a deeply personal and intellectual shift, especially given your family’s direct historical connection to Churchill. It’s a heavy thing to reconcile a "childhood hero" with the messy, often painful realities of the geopolitical legacies they left behind.
Regarding the historical facts behind your statement, here is a breakdown of how Churchill’s actions align with the history of that era.
The Historical Context
You are correct that Winston Churchill was a pivotal figure in the implementation of the British Mandate and the support of the Zionist movement.
The 1922 White Paper: As Colonial Secretary, Churchill authored the "Churchill White Paper." While it sought to clarify that Britain did not intend to make Palestine "as Jewish as England is English," it reaffirmed the Balfour Declaration and the right of Jewish people to a "national home" in Palestine.
The "Middle European" Element: You mentioned "Middle European Judaism." Historically, the early Zionist waves (Aliyahs) were indeed primarily composed of Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern and Central Europe. Churchill viewed this through a Eurocentric lens, often believing that European influence would "civilise" or bring industrial progress to the region—a perspective that ignored the existing social and political structures of the Palestinian Arab population.
The Contradiction: Churchill was a man of the British Empire. While he is celebrated for defeating Nazism, many historians now examine his "fragility" as an icon because his policies in the Middle East, India, and Ireland often prioritised Imperial strategy over the self-determination of the people living there.
Reconciling the Icon
The "trouble" you mentioned often stems from how modern discourse treats Zionism and Churchill. Because Churchill is seen as the ultimate defender of democracy against fascism, any critique of his colonial policies—like those in Palestine—can feel like an attack on his entire legacy to those who admire him.
However, your point about "enduring fragility" is a sentiment shared by many modern historians:
He was a visionary leader in war.
He was also a Victorian-era imperialist whose decisions created borders and conflicts that the world is still grappling with today.
Your Family Connection
The fact that your great-uncle, Bowman Foster Ashe (the first president of the University of Miami), conferred an honorary degree upon Churchill in 1946 adds a layer of "living history" to your perspective. That degree was given just as the post-WWII world order—and the crisis in Mandate Palestine—was reaching a boiling point.

[Rocker]

AI obviously just works with what you feed it. VDP's starting point of an "palestinian culture" is historically incorrect. But that's probably better discussed via PM instead of a Beach Boys messageboard. Let's get back to the music.

[Yorick]

Historian or not, at least he's on the right side of history.   

[Rocker]

Historian or not, at least he's on the right side of history.   

People who don't care for facts and fall for propaganda seldomly do. But again, this is not the place for that discussion. The dude wrote great lyrics and music. That's good enough for me.

[Yorick]

Historian or not, at least he's on the right side of history.   

[Julia]

Funding Israel shouldn't be a priority when Americans cant get healthcare. This shouldn't be a controversial opinion. Also, Palestinians ABSOLUTELY have a culture. Any group of people who've lived together, any demarcation of people, any community, has a culture. This board has a culture that's distinct from other BB forums...to say nothing of wholly different websites (Facebook ain't 4chan which ain't reddit which ain't kiwifarms) and Pennsylvania is a very different place from California...and they're both very different from Shanghai. To say Palestinians dont/didn't have a unique culture among them is just factually incorrect regardless of where one stands on the occupation. No group of people could exist for 2000+ years and not have a culture.

About the article though, really nice piece and it's great Van seems to have buried whatever misgivings he may've had for Brian at some points. (Honestly, that's life.) Very humble guy. I think it's clear one way or another he's said everything he has to say about Brian and SMiLE at this point. Any little details obsessives like me would want clarification on, it's to the point where he doesn't remember or think is important--and that's ok. I've made my peace with it.

[zaval80]

"I spent all my life admiring Churchill, but he created a big problem when he put a middle European Judaism into a historically Palestinian culture and their land without further thought."

Obviously VDP's point is not about whether Palestinians have culture or not, he speaks about the start of Jewish migration into what was "Palestinian Palestine". IMO somebody of his caliber knows his history.

[Julia]

"I spent all my life admiring Churchill, but he created a big problem when he put a middle European Judaism into a historically Palestinian culture and their land without further thought."

Obviously VDP's point is not about whether Palestinians have culture or not, he speaks about the start of Jewish migration into what was "Palestinian Palestine". IMO somebody of his caliber knows his history.

Right, I was referring to the quote in this thread:

VDP's starting point of an "palestinian culture" is historically incorrect.

^Which, whatever your thoughts on Palestinians, Israelis, Jews and Muslims, is silly. Of course Palestine had a culture for ~2000 years in-between the diaspora of the Jews after the Romans destroyed the second temple and now. Whatever ones thoughts on if the occupation is justified or not, these are human beings and any group of human beings have culture.

I'm probably not being wise airing my opinion but I say, regardless of what goes on halfway across the world, it shouldn't be happening on our dime especially when America itself is objectively not in a good place right now. Even putting aside whether our taxes should be used for infrastructure and healthcare...we're kind of in a massive debt spiral that's about to reach a tipping point where interest payments outpace what we even can afford to pay. It's objectively insane that we prioritize Israel's "safety" over our own country's. But then you see Netanyahu spitting in the face of our former Presidents by bypassing the White House (who represents the US to foreign nations) to address Congress directly--and that slob Fetterman finally wears a suit for the ocassion--it's certainly bad optics if not proof that our country's been hijacked by foreign hostile interests. Also, I won't stake my reputation on if this is true or not, but I've seen others use evidence from the Epstein files to piece together that the man himself was a Mossad agent gathering kompromat to keep the rich and powerful on Israel's leash. Until all the files are sifted through and pieced together we can't know for sure, but it's not a good look.

Long-winded way of saying I agree with VDP and the poster who said he's on the right side of history here.

[Rocker]

"I spent all my life admiring Churchill, but he created a big problem when he put a middle European Judaism into a historically Palestinian culture and their land without further thought."

Obviously VDP's point is not about whether Palestinians have culture or not, he speaks about the start of Jewish migration into what was "Palestinian Palestine". IMO somebody of his caliber knows his history.

Right, I was referring to the quote in this thread:

VDP's starting point of an "palestinian culture" is historically incorrect.

^Which, whatever your thoughts on Palestinians, Israelis, Jews and Muslims, is silly. Of course Palestine had a culture for ~2000 years in-between the diaspora of the Jews after the Romans destroyed the second temple and now. Whatever ones thoughts on if the occupation is justified or not, these are human beings and any group of human beings have culture.

Again, not the right place here, so I make it short:

There never existed a palestinian culture. The modern use of the term "Palestinians" was created by the USSR and Arafat in the late 60s to make the Arabs of former Mandatory Palestine look like freedom fighters (which sounded better in Westerner's ears, especially in the 60s; their declared goal of exterminating all Jews unfortunately didn't change though). What they are is Arabs and that's what they called themselves til somewhere in the 70s. They made no secret out of that. There is no pal. language, culture, ethnicity, religion or whatsoever (even the word "Palestine" can't be pronounced in the arabic language because there is no "p" in it; that's why they call it "Falestine") There's no reason being ashamed of being an Arab. But the term "palestinian" originally refered to everyone living in Mandatory Palestine (mostly to the Jews because the Arabs were called "Arabs of Palestine"). The Arabs came to the Levant starting in the 7th century CE. "Palestine" is a western term (coined by the Greeks and later the Romans) that after 135 CE was put on Judea.


These are just the facts. Political conclusions are something different.

So, there's some history in short for you. Again, if Middle Easter history needs to be discussed or if you'd like to have literature tips for further research, message me via PM. But here's a place to discuss the BBs


 

[Julia]

Again, not the right place here, so I make it short:

There never existed a palestinian culture. The modern use of the term "Palestinians" was created by the USSR and Arafat in the late 60s to make the Arabs of former Mandatory Palestine look like freedom fighters (which sounded better in Westerner's ears, especially in the 60s; their declared goal of exterminating all Jews unfortunately didn't change though). What they are is Arabs and that's what they called themselves til somewhere in the 70s. They made no secret out of that. There is no pal. language, culture, ethnicity, religion or whatsoever (even the word "Palestine" can't be pronounced in the arabic language because there is no "p" in it; that's why they call it "Falestine") There's no reason being ashamed of being an Arab. But the term "palestinian" originally refered to everyone living in Mandatory Palestine (mostly to the Jews because the Arabs were called "Arabs of Palestine"). The Arabs came to the Levant starting in the 7th century CE. "Palestine" is a western term (coined by the Greeks and later the Romans) that after 135 CE was put on Judea.

These are just the facts. Political conclusions are something different.

So, there's some history in short for you. Again, if Middle Easter history needs to be discussed or if you'd like to have literature tips for further research, message me via PM. But here's a place to discuss the BBs
 

Palestine is the Roman word for "Philistine," at least to the best of my knowledge, a word/group that even appears in the Bible. There were Palestinians there for at least as long as there were Jews. After the Romans overpowered the Jewish revolt and expelled them from Judea the province was renamed Palestine after the new majority population. Just because they didn't call themselves that for all that time, or use a distinct language, doesn't mean the human beings in Palestine don't have a culture. Also we must keep in mind that after the Romans, the Palestinians were juggled around from different Caliphates/dynasties of the Arab Muslims and then the Ottoman empire (who, according to wikipedia, called the region something else). I don't think we can use the fact that they didn't call themselves Palestinian against their claim to culture/humanity. We call Deutschland "Germany" and Nippon "Japan" but no one would argue there isn't a German/Japanese culture. The South stayed in the union but there's clearly a distinct southern culture in Alabama you don't get in Vermont. Or are we in America not a culture because we're ethnically white/European and therefore not distinct enough?

I think these subtleties are just a convenient excuse to deny the Palestinians their rights and dignity as people. Even if I were to concede that "Palestine" is somehow a new or made-up word (which somehow means they're "less than"), there are human beings living there. As long as there was even one neighborhood of people talking amongst themselves and sharing some core ideas among them, there was by definition a culture in Palestine, hence a Palestinian culture. To deny that is not only incorrect, but it's actually kind of well, discriminatory (to put it as mildly as I can) because you're denying the Palestinians their humanity. Usually this kind of thing is done as an excuse to justify, ahem...well, y'know, genocide. Not accusing you of supporting that, but just saying this is how it starts. When you deny other people their humanity it becomes exponentially easier to justify doing horrible things...like bomb hospitals and rescue vehicles trying to bring food for the starving children.

As for the conflict and what "Palestinians" (or Hamas or whatever) have done or who started what, or any kind of whataboutism...I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole. I'm not saying no Palestinian has ever had blood on their hands--or even whether the Zionists had a right to "take back" (some might say steal) the land after 2000 years, when the people living there had nothing to do with the objective wrongdoing of the Romans. My position is merely that Palestinians have a culture whether we like it or not, whether we like THEM or not. That, and I think it's wrong for America to be footing the bill when we have our own problems at home that're becoming too large to ignore. This isn't 2001~2003 anymore when we had a huge surplus, sitting on top of the world with our former enemies beaten back. This is 2026 and people are so desperate for change they rejected the entire status quo to take a chance on Trump--twice. This is a time when Russia is being aggressive again and China is playing the long game picking up the pieces as we alienate long-time allies. This is a time when the INTEREST PAYMENTS on the debt are about to outpace our ability to pay--even if we did tax the "1%," which we aren't. This is a time when bridges are collapsing (not an exaggeration, this happened in my city during Biden's term) and healthcare costs are bankrupting people, many are out of work or fearing it because of AI. No one I know personally is thriving right now and many are hopeless, depressed or outright miserable. America can't afford to keep paying for Israel's war--even without placing a value judgement on whether it's a "just war" or not. We need to put on our own gas mask before we try to help anyone else--whether or not Israel even deserves it is another discussion entirely.


Of course, the people leading our country are objectively insane and so evil they're covering up an honest to God pedo ring...so probably things will continue to spiral out of control regardless of what I say. Anyway, good interview with VDP, now it's time to block out the tragic reality we live in with another spin of Pet Sounds...

[zaval80]

Again, not the right place here, so I make it short:

There never existed a palestinian culture. ...


These are just the facts. Political conclusions are something different.

And you took out this "fact" - from which "factbook"?

Palestinians are mentioned in the Bible, not invented by the Soviets. If they call their land "Falestine" which more or less corresponds to "Philistines" known from the Bible, and if the traditional Western way of writing it as "Palestine", it's the Western fault not theirs.

[mike s]

Exactly this.  They are Arabs.  There isn't and never was a 'Palestinian state'.

"I spent all my life admiring Churchill, but he created a big problem when he put a middle European Judaism into a historically Palestinian culture and their land without further thought."

Obviously VDP's point is not about whether Palestinians have culture or not, he speaks about the start of Jewish migration into what was "Palestinian Palestine". IMO somebody of his caliber knows his history.

Right, I was referring to the quote in this thread:

VDP's starting point of an "palestinian culture" is historically incorrect.

^Which, whatever your thoughts on Palestinians, Israelis, Jews and Muslims, is silly. Of course Palestine had a culture for ~2000 years in-between the diaspora of the Jews after the Romans destroyed the second temple and now. Whatever ones thoughts on if the occupation is justified or not, these are human beings and any group of human beings have culture.

Again, not the right place here, so I make it short:

There never existed a palestinian culture. The modern use of the term "Palestinians" was created by the USSR and Arafat in the late 60s to make the Arabs of former Mandatory Palestine look like freedom fighters (which sounded better in Westerner's ears, especially in the 60s; their declared goal of exterminating all Jews unfortunately didn't change though). What they are is Arabs and that's what they called themselves til somewhere in the 70s. They made no secret out of that. There is no pal. language, culture, ethnicity, religion or whatsoever (even the word "Palestine" can't be pronounced in the arabic language because there is no "p" in it; that's why they call it "Falestine") There's no reason being ashamed of being an Arab. But the term "palestinian" originally refered to everyone living in Mandatory Palestine (mostly to the Jews because the Arabs were called "Arabs of Palestine"). The Arabs came to the Levant starting in the 7th century CE. "Palestine" is a western term (coined by the Greeks and later the Romans) that after 135 CE was put on Judea.


These are just the facts. Political conclusions are something different.

So, there's some history in short for you. Again, if Middle Easter history needs to be discussed or if you'd like to have literature tips for further research, message me via PM. But here's a place to discuss the BBs


 

[mike s]

'Palestine' was a region where everybody lived - NOT an Arab state.  The Romans came up with the name as an insult.

Again, not the right place here, so I make it short:

There never existed a palestinian culture. ...


These are just the facts. Political conclusions are something different.

And you took out this "fact" - from which "factbook"?

Palestinians are mentioned in the Bible, not invented by the Soviets. If they call their land "Falestine" which more or less corresponds to "Philistines" known from the Bible, and if the traditional Western way of writing it as "Palestine", it's the Western fault not theirs.

[Julia]

Am I missing something? Are Arabs not human beings? Is it right to force them from the land they and their forebears were living on for 2000 years because they weren't a separate polity? So, because the land they live on was juggled between several different Arab/Muslim dynasties and then the Ottomans and then the victorious Allies after WWI that means they're less-than and it's ok to kick them off their homes, bomb hospitals, starve children? Im confused.

And again, I don't really want to hear about "but XYZ Hamas did this" or "Europeans/Americans genocided people too!" That's not even relevant to this particular conversation and it'd lead to a neverending blame game. What's at stake here is that y'all are using weird irrelevant technicalities to make vast sweeping generalizations about entire groups of people and deny them their humanity. Who decides what culture is, or whether one is recognized as having it whether they call themselves "Arabs" or "Palestinians?" What difference does that make--are Arabs not capable of having culture? Does not having culture mean it's ok to push them off their land and pretend they don't exist?

And if anyone's going to give me a long sermon about the evils of Islam (to justify dismissing it as a culture or paint its adherents as evil) just remember the same argument can and was made against Jews too. If someone who's a Christian would make such an argument I'd invite them to follow Christ's actual example and quit judging. If someone who's a secular agnostic/atheist would make such an argument, I'd say both religions demand the ritual mutilation of innocent babies just for starters--IE, neither group has a leg to stand on in the "my religion is more 'civilized' than yours" argument.

People are people. Bad things were done in the past that can't be undone but we can learn and choose peace and tolerance going forward. Just because Hitler (and others) did horrible things to one group of people shouldn't give them the right to turn around and treat an (in this case) innocent group of people badly in turn. I don't know why this is so controversial of a take. It's also perfectly natural that after watching Israel siphon billions of dollars from our already struggling country to treat people inhumanely that the protective sentiment many of us used to feel for the Israelis would diminish--y'all brought this reaction upon yourselves by using sledgehammers to swat flies.

Have I said too much? Probably. But it feels good to speak truth to power, if even behind a screen. Someone needs to say it and as a meek person with Jewish friends whom I don't want to alienate (but who insist on throwing this sh*t in my face with their "rah rah Israel / Palestine wasn't even a country" bullshit) I have to admit this sentiment has been building in me for quite some time. I'll thank you Mike s, for provoking me into getting it off my chest.

[mike s]

Bombing Hospitals:  The big lie - the first of many - at the start of this was that the Jews had destroyed Al-Ahli Arab Hospital and everyone inside.  The hospital wsn't even touched.  The Gazans told this lie anyway and it went all round the world and was still being parroted several days later when all anyone had to do was go there and look at the untouched building!

Congenitally malformed children passed off as 'starving' - 'famine' - this lying started on about day 3 of the conflict and carried on throughout.  (First cousin marriage twice as likely to produce that kind of deformity).

'Genocide' - no it isn't athough this is lazily parroted.  Its a war that the GAZANS STARTED in the most inhuman and revolting way possible.  Funnily enough having to go through security check points doesn't make me want to go on a rampage of slaughter and rape.

Julia you don't seem to know the history - what the Gazans have been offered in the past.  Are you even aware that in 2005/6 the Jews completely withdrew from Gaza - they even dug up their dead and took them away as well.  What did the Gazans then immediately do..?  They voted in Hamas whose charter stated ACTUAL genocide against the Jews - and then spent decades and billions of dollars of aid on building their hideous terror fun fair.

There certainly is a 'culture' in Gaza:  crazed antisemitism.  Not every individual obviously but its extremely widespread.

Don't being rabidly antisemitic.  Don't start wars you can't finish.

Am I missing something? Are Arabs not human beings? Is it right to force them from the land they and their forebears were living on for 2000 years because they weren't a separate polity? So, because the land they live on was juggled between several different Arab/Muslim dynasties and then the Ottomans and then the victorious Allies after WWI that means they're less-than and it's ok to kick them off their homes, bomb hospitals, starve children? Im confused.

And again, I don't really want to hear about "but XYZ Hamas did this" or "Europeans/Americans genocided people too!" That's not even relevant to this particular conversation and it'd lead to a neverending blame game. What's at stake here is that y'all are using weird irrelevant technicalities to make vast sweeping generalizations about entire groups of people and deny them their humanity. Who decides what culture is, or whether one is recognized as having it whether they call themselves "Arabs" or "Palestinians?" What difference does that make--are Arabs not capable of having culture? Does not having culture mean it's ok to push them off their land and pretend they don't exist?

And if anyone's going to give me a long sermon about the evils of Islam (to justify dismissing it as a culture or paint its adherents as evil) just remember the same argument can and was made against Jews too. If someone who's a Christian would make such an argument I'd invite them to follow Christ's actual example and quit judging. If someone who's a secular agnostic/atheist would make such an argument, I'd say both religions demand the ritual mutilation of innocent babies just for starters--IE, neither group has a leg to stand on in the "my religion is more 'civilized' than yours" argument.

People are people. Bad things were done in the past that can't be undone but we can learn and choose peace and tolerance going forward. Just because Hitler (and others) did horrible things to one group of people shouldn't give them the right to turn around and treat an (in this case) innocent group of people badly in turn. I don't know why this is so controversial of a take. It's also perfectly natural that after watching Israel siphon billions of dollars from our already struggling country to treat people inhumanely that the protective sentiment many of us used to feel for the Israelis would diminish--y'all brought this reaction upon yourselves by using sledgehammers to swat flies.

Have I said too much? Probably. But it feels good to speak truth to power, if even behind a screen. Someone needs to say it and as a meek person with Jewish friends whom I don't want to alienate (but who insist on throwing this sh*t in my face with their "rah rah Israel / Palestine wasn't even a country" bullshit) I have to admit this sentiment has been building in me for quite some time. I'll thank you Mike s, for provoking me into getting it off my chest.

[Julia]

Bombing Hospitals:  The big lie - the first of many - at the start of this was that the Jews had destroyed Al-Ahli Arab Hospital and everyone inside.  The hospital wsn't even touched.  The Gazans told this lie anyway and it went all round the world and was still being parroted several days later when all anyone had to do was go there and look at the untouched building!

Congenitally malformed children passed off as 'starving' - 'famine' - this lying started on about day 3 of the conflict and carried on throughout.  (First cousin marriage twice as likely to produce that kind of deformity).

'Genocide' - no it isn't athough this is lazily parroted.  Its a war that the GAZANS STARTED in the most inhuman and revolting way possible.  Funnily enough having to go through security check points doesn't make me want to go on a rampage of slaughter and rape.

Julia you don't seem to know the history - what the Gazans have been offered in the past.  Are you even aware that in 2005/6 the Jews completely withdrew from Gaza - they even dug up their dead and took them away as well.  What did the Gazans then immediately do..?  They voted in Hamas whose charter stated ACTUAL genocide against the Jews - and then spent decades and billions of dollars of aid on building their hideous terror fun fair.

There certainly is a 'culture' in Gaza:  crazed antisemitism.  Not every individual obviously but its extremely widespread.

Don't being rabidly antisemitic.  Don't start wars you can't finish.

Yeeeeeeaaaaaahhhhpp and there it is. The a-word that no longer holds any sway because you people throw it out every chance you get. That's not the "I win!" button you think it is anymore. Also, you know the Palestinians are Semitic too, right? So you're at least as guilty of what you throw around to start with. (Oh, but Palestinians are subhuman so they don't count in your world, right?)

I said I didn't want to litigate the entire history of the Gazan situation because it'll just be a waste of time and probably get us both banned (if the mods are still even active here--it's hard to tell). I could share a million more links like these:
https://www.dropsitenews.com/p/israeli-soldiers-tel-sultan-gaza-red-crescent-civil-defense-massacre-report-forensic-architecture-earshot?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/14/gaza-israelis-attacking-known-aid-worker-locations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6XHsbA1NUI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_direct_action_against_aid_delivery_to_Gaza
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2025/4/1/rescue-workers-israel-killed-found-in-mass-grave-in-gaza-what-to-know
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/21/middleeast/un-food-convoy-gaza-israel-strike-cmd-intl
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c80d2zrdj7vo
https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/article/hospital-attacks-gaza-and-israel-what-counts-war-crime
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-strikes-a-gaza-hospital-twice-killing-at-least-20-including-journalists-and-rescuers
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/08/un-experts-appalled-relentless-israeli-attacks-gazas-healthcare-system
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/9/28/horrific-israel-bombs-hospitals-residential-towers-amid-gaza-onslaught
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_health_facilities_during_the_Gaza_war

... And it won't matter because your minds made up. "Durr, those are fake news/hurr, antisemitism/Gaza started it/not even a real country/no Palestinian culture!/something something whataboutism" so what's the point. You people seem desperate to steal that last sliver of land at any cost in human life and Israel's reputation so enjoy it. But I think if your cause is championed by Donald freaking Trump and you have to wave away hundreds of independent sources/witnesses as "muh antisemitez!" you ought to stop and do a little self-reflection.

If you justify the death of a people because "they don't even have a country" then you're retroactively justifying how Jews were treated in the past. I hope you realize that someday. There are no wholly innocent sides in this conflict perhaps but that doesn't justify the blatant overreaction of Israel.

[mike s]

Julia you're mangling what I said while simultaneously seeming to have a dodgy grasp of the history and also current events.

This literally happened:  The Jews withdrew from Gaza - they dug up their dead and took the bodies with them too.  Billions of dollars of aid was then pumped into Gaza to make it nice.  What did the Gazans then do..?  They VOTED IN HAMAS whose charter explicitly called for the destruction of the Jews.  All the aid money was then spent building a tunnel terror network in preparation for attacking the Jews.

'Durr, those are fake news' - You think saying the Jews destroyed an entire hospital along with the 500 people inside isn't fake news..?  And not correcting the story and letting it propogate worldwide for days..?

'Antisemitism' - You think voting in Hamas who explicitly want to wipe out the Jews ISN'T antisemitism..?  And that was the 'nice' and 'normal' Gazans who did that not some deranged minority.

Bombing Hospitals:  The big lie - the first of many - at the start of this was that the Jews had destroyed Al-Ahli Arab Hospital and everyone inside.  The hospital wsn't even touched.  The Gazans told this lie anyway and it went all round the world and was still being parroted several days later when all anyone had to do was go there and look at the untouched building!

Congenitally malformed children passed off as 'starving' - 'famine' - this lying started on about day 3 of the conflict and carried on throughout.  (First cousin marriage twice as likely to produce that kind of deformity).

'Genocide' - no it isn't athough this is lazily parroted.  Its a war that the GAZANS STARTED in the most inhuman and revolting way possible.  Funnily enough having to go through security check points doesn't make me want to go on a rampage of slaughter and rape.

Julia you don't seem to know the history - what the Gazans have been offered in the past.  Are you even aware that in 2005/6 the Jews completely withdrew from Gaza - they even dug up their dead and took them away as well.  What did the Gazans then immediately do..?  They voted in Hamas whose charter stated ACTUAL genocide against the Jews - and then spent decades and billions of dollars of aid on building their hideous terror fun fair.

There certainly is a 'culture' in Gaza:  crazed antisemitism.  Not every individual obviously but its extremely widespread.

Don't being rabidly antisemitic.  Don't start wars you can't finish.

Yeeeeeeaaaaaahhhhpp and there it is. The a-word that no longer holds any sway because you people throw it out every chance you get. That's not the "I win!" button you think it is anymore. Also, you know the Palestinians are Semitic too, right? So you're at least as guilty of what you throw around to start with. (Oh, but Palestinians are subhuman so they don't count in your world, right?)

I said I didn't want to litigate the entire history of the Gazan situation because it'll just be a waste of time and probably get us both banned (if the mods are still even active here--it's hard to tell). I could share a million more links like these:
https://www.dropsitenews.com/p/israeli-soldiers-tel-sultan-gaza-red-crescent-civil-defense-massacre-report-forensic-architecture-earshot?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/14/gaza-israelis-attacking-known-aid-worker-locations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6XHsbA1NUI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_direct_action_against_aid_delivery_to_Gaza
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2025/4/1/rescue-workers-israel-killed-found-in-mass-grave-in-gaza-what-to-know
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/21/middleeast/un-food-convoy-gaza-israel-strike-cmd-intl
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c80d2zrdj7vo
https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/article/hospital-attacks-gaza-and-israel-what-counts-war-crime
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-strikes-a-gaza-hospital-twice-killing-at-least-20-including-journalists-and-rescuers
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/08/un-experts-appalled-relentless-israeli-attacks-gazas-healthcare-system
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/9/28/horrific-israel-bombs-hospitals-residential-towers-amid-gaza-onslaught
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_health_facilities_during_the_Gaza_war

... And it won't matter because your minds made up. "Durr, those are fake news/hurr, antisemitism/Gaza started it/not even a real country/no Palestinian culture!/something something whataboutism" so what's the point. You people seem desperate to steal that last sliver of land at any cost in human life and Israel's reputation so enjoy it. But I think if your cause is championed by Donald freaking Trump and you have to wave away hundreds of independent sources/witnesses as "muh antisemitez!" you ought to stop and do a little self-reflection.

If you justify the death of a people because "they don't even have a country" then you're retroactively justifying how Jews were treated in the past. I hope you realize that someday. There are no wholly innocent sides in this conflict perhaps but that doesn't justify the blatant overreaction of Israel.

[Julia]

We'll let history and the people of the world be the judge of what Israel's doing. I can't effect the outcome either way and you'll never be convinced, so this conversation can serve no further purpose.

I'll just say before I walk away, it's both frustrating and indicative of a bad faith argument the way Zionists and their ilk insist on merging themselves with people of Hebrew ancestry (hence the bullshit "antisemite!" shield). It both makes it impossible to have a reasoned discussion and harms the image people have of Jews in general. Instead of thinking "I got nothing against people of Jewish descent but Israel's government leaves a lot to be desired" you're training people to think "well, I guess all Jews support this extermination program and play victim to avoid accountability--not a big fan of them anymore." If genuine antisemitism ever returns to mainstream discourse in the West (and I sincerely pray it doesn't) Israel and its apologists will only have themselves to blame. After the holocaust you people had the sympathy of the entire world and what did you do with it? Turned around and treated minorities in "your" country the same way you'd been treated by Russian pogroms and the like. [Note I'm choosing my words carefully here, not comparing Israel to Nazis with state-sanctioned death camps, but certainly what's going on in Gaza compares to the pogroms of old. I'm sure someone will take this out of context though, there's always that guy.]

Pretending the "original sin" that set this conflict off--the colonization of this area by people who hadn't lived there for 2000 years (and have no claim to it) never happened is also a bad faith argument people see right through. It's a convenient play Zionists use, pretending they were somehow always there and somehow didn't upset the status quo, so they may claim perpetual victim status. And no, I'm sorry, but just because a really old book says "this land is ours" that doesn't make it so, anymore than if the Avestas were used by Indian Zoroastrians to justify an invasion of Iran. But most Holy Books don't have comparable claims in them anyway, because most religions aren't an exercise in ethnic hierarchy. Fact is, if the Old Testament said Aryans are the chosen people, the only ones who will go to Heaven, who have a God-given right to slaughter other villages for worshiping "false gods" and claim to some obscure piece of real estate forever...we'd all say that's insane and racist and hateful and a relic of a bygone age that belongs in a museum not a Head of State's desk. But people treated the Jews badly in the past so now it can never be questioned. There's a ton of ex-Christian white people who'd be the first to throw their forefather's faith under the bus (perhaps rightly so), just as many who hate Islam for being anti-women and repressive, but somehow when the Jewish religion is used to justify the slaughter of children they're the good guys. Make it make sense. (Not to mention Israel is a codified ethnostate where any other group trying such a thing would be condemned as racist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel)

Even as Gaza's population is both a mean and median age of ~18, even as Israel has a missile shield that prevents virtually any damage from Hamas' primitive bottle rockets, even as Israel is funded by the world's strongest superpower, even as Israel stole nuclear weapons tech from us, even as Israel allows settlers to encroach on Palestinian land, even as Netanyahu disrespects our magistrates openly...somehow Israel is always the poor battered innocent victim incapable of any wrong, when the scale of power could not be more lopsided. Sorry, I don't buy it anymore, and neither does the rest of the world. If you colonize someone else's land, where they and their ancestors have lived for 2000 years, you can't expect them to not resent you and want to fight back. This is the equivalent of American settlers crying foul when an Indian tribe they've displaced takes up arms, or the Italians playing victim when Ethiopians decide they don't want to be subjugated by a foreign power. You invaded their home and thereby started the conflict! You expect them to just lay down and die? You don't think every aggressive expansion and overreaction doesn't create new Hamas supporters? How and why do you expect these people to like you when all they've ever known is that you stole their land within living memory and keep them under a boot heel? This isn't even me picking a side, it's just human nature.

Anyway, good on Van Dyke for speaking out--my esteem for him has increased five-fold. If Israel wants to finish exterminating literal teenagers and children (mean AND median age of 18!) I can't stop them. But I would like it very much if they didn't use my tax dollars in the process when we can't afford healthcare or service the debt. (I know, what an antisemite am I--literally Hitler. I guess if I admit I admire the Solomon-credited books of the Bible I'd be a cultural appropriator too.)

[mike s]

Julia you didn't address this:  

'This literally happened:  The Jews withdrew from Gaza - they dug up their dead and took the bodies with them too.  Billions of dollars of aid was then pumped into Gaza to make it nice.  What did the Gazans then do..?  They VOTED IN HAMAS whose charter explicitly called for the destruction of the Jews.  All the aid money was then spent building a tunnel terror network in preparation for attacking the Jews.'

Because you can't.  You can't acknowledge that as fact - which it is - but then say it was the product of a reasonable and non-deranged society.  So you have to ignore it.

Your grasp of history (and current events) is wonky when you talk about 'colonisers'.  You think Arabs originated on the Med..?

How much personal experience do you have interacting with Muslims..?  Any..?  I lived in Birmingham for 15 years and I've got Muslim friends and colleagues.  I know how a lot of them think inc. the nice ones - you'd be surprised.

We'll let history and the people of the world be the judge of what Israel's doing. I can't effect the outcome either way and you'll never be convinced, so this conversation can serve no further purpose.

I'll just say before I walk away, it's both frustrating and indicative of a bad faith argument the way Zionists and their ilk insist on merging themselves with people of Hebrew ancestry (hence the bullshit "antisemite!" shield). It both makes it impossible to have a reasoned discussion and harms the image people have of Jews in general. Instead of thinking "I got nothing against people of Jewish descent but Israel's government leaves a lot to be desired" you're training people to think "well, I guess all Jews support this extermination program and play victim to avoid accountability--not a big fan of them anymore." If genuine antisemitism ever returns to mainstream discourse in the West (and I sincerely pray it doesn't) Israel and its apologists will only have themselves to blame. After the holocaust you people had the sympathy of the entire world and what did you do with it? Turned around and treated minorities in "your" country the same way you'd been treated by Russian pogroms and the like. [Note I'm choosing my words carefully here, not comparing Israel to Nazis with state-sanctioned death camps, but certainly what's going on in Gaza compares to the pogroms of old. I'm sure someone will take this out of context though, there's always that guy.]

Pretending the "original sin" that set this conflict off--the colonization of this area by people who hadn't lived there for 2000 years (and have no claim to it) never happened is also a bad faith argument people see right through. It's a convenient play Zionists use, pretending they were somehow always there and somehow didn't upset the status quo, so they may claim perpetual victim status. And no, I'm sorry, but just because a really old book says "this land is ours" that doesn't make it so, anymore than if the Avestas were used by Indian Zoroastrians to justify an invasion of Iran. But most Holy Books don't have comparable claims in them anyway, because most religions aren't an exercise in ethnic hierarchy. Fact is, if the Old Testament said Aryans are the chosen people, the only ones who will go to Heaven, who have a God-given right to slaughter other villages for worshiping "false gods" and claim to some obscure piece of real estate forever...we'd all say that's insane and racist and hateful and a relic of a bygone age that belongs in a museum not a Head of State's desk. But people treated the Jews badly in the past so now it can never be questioned. There's a ton of ex-Christian white people who'd be the first to throw their forefather's faith under the bus (perhaps rightly so), just as many who hate Islam for being anti-women and repressive, but somehow when the Jewish religion is used to justify the slaughter of children they're the good guys. Make it make sense. (Not to mention Israel is a codified ethnostate where any other group trying such a thing would be condemned as racist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel)

Even as Gaza's population is both a mean and median age of ~18, even as Israel has a missile shield that prevents virtually any damage from Hamas' primitive bottle rockets, even as Israel is funded by the world's strongest superpower, even as Israel stole nuclear weapons tech from us, even as Israel allows settlers to encroach on Palestinian land, even as Netanyahu disrespects our magistrates openly...somehow Israel is always the poor battered innocent victim incapable of any wrong, when the scale of power could not be more lopsided. Sorry, I don't buy it anymore, and neither does the rest of the world. If you colonize someone else's land, where they and their ancestors have lived for 2000 years, you can't expect them to not resent you and want to fight back. This is the equivalent of American settlers crying foul when an Indian tribe they've displaced takes up arms, or the Italians playing victim when Ethiopians decide they don't want to be subjugated by a foreign power. You invaded their home and thereby started the conflict! You expect them to just lay down and die? You don't think every aggressive expansion and overreaction doesn't create new Hamas supporters? How and why do you expect these people to like you when all they've ever known is that you stole their land within living memory and keep them under a boot heel? This isn't even me picking a side, it's just human nature.

Anyway, good on Van Dyke for speaking out--my esteem for him has increased five-fold. If Israel wants to finish exterminating literal teenagers and children (mean AND median age of 18!) I can't stop them. But I would like it very much if they didn't use my tax dollars in the process when we can't afford healthcare or service the debt. (I know, what an antisemite am I--literally Hitler. I guess if I admit I admire the Solomon-credited books of the Bible I'd be a cultural appropriator too.)

[rab2591]

We'll let history and the people of the world be the judge of what Israel's doing. I can't effect the outcome either way and you'll never be convinced, so this conversation can serve no further purpose.

I'll just say before I walk away, it's both frustrating and indicative of a bad faith argument the way Zionists and their ilk insist on merging themselves with people of Hebrew ancestry (hence the bullshit "antisemite!" shield). It both makes it impossible to have a reasoned discussion and harms the image people have of Jews in general. Instead of thinking "I got nothing against people of Jewish descent but Israel's government leaves a lot to be desired" you're training people to think "well, I guess all Jews support this extermination program and play victim to avoid accountability--not a big fan of them anymore." If genuine antisemitism ever returns to mainstream discourse in the West (and I sincerely pray it doesn't) Israel and its apologists will only have themselves to blame. After the holocaust you people had the sympathy of the entire world and what did you do with it? Turned around and treated minorities in "your" country the same way you'd been treated by Russian pogroms and the like. [Note I'm choosing my words carefully here, not comparing Israel to Nazis with state-sanctioned death camps, but certainly what's going on in Gaza compares to the pogroms of old. I'm sure someone will take this out of context though, there's always that guy.]

Pretending the "original sin" that set this conflict off--the colonization of this area by people who hadn't lived there for 2000 years (and have no claim to it) never happened is also a bad faith argument people see right through. It's a convenient play Zionists use, pretending they were somehow always there and somehow didn't upset the status quo, so they may claim perpetual victim status. And no, I'm sorry, but just because a really old book says "this land is ours" that doesn't make it so, anymore than if the Avestas were used by Indian Zoroastrians to justify an invasion of Iran. But most Holy Books don't have comparable claims in them anyway, because most religions aren't an exercise in ethnic hierarchy. Fact is, if the Old Testament said Aryans are the chosen people, the only ones who will go to Heaven, who have a God-given right to slaughter other villages for worshiping "false gods" and claim to some obscure piece of real estate forever...we'd all say that's insane and racist and hateful and a relic of a bygone age that belongs in a museum not a Head of State's desk. But people treated the Jews badly in the past so now it can never be questioned. There's a ton of ex-Christian white people who'd be the first to throw their forefather's faith under the bus (perhaps rightly so), just as many who hate Islam for being anti-women and repressive, but somehow when the Jewish religion is used to justify the slaughter of children they're the good guys. Make it make sense. (Not to mention Israel is a codified ethnostate where any other group trying such a thing would be condemned as racist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel)

Even as Gaza's population is both a mean and median age of ~18, even as Israel has a missile shield that prevents virtually any damage from Hamas' primitive bottle rockets, even as Israel is funded by the world's strongest superpower, even as Israel stole nuclear weapons tech from us, even as Israel allows settlers to encroach on Palestinian land, even as Netanyahu disrespects our magistrates openly...somehow Israel is always the poor battered innocent victim incapable of any wrong, when the scale of power could not be more lopsided. Sorry, I don't buy it anymore, and neither does the rest of the world. If you colonize someone else's land, where they and their ancestors have lived for 2000 years, you can't expect them to not resent you and want to fight back. This is the equivalent of American settlers crying foul when an Indian tribe they've displaced takes up arms, or the Italians playing victim when Ethiopians decide they don't want to be subjugated by a foreign power. You invaded their home and thereby started the conflict! You expect them to just lay down and die? You don't think every aggressive expansion and overreaction doesn't create new Hamas supporters? How and why do you expect these people to like you when all they've ever known is that you stole their land within living memory and keep them under a boot heel? This isn't even me picking a side, it's just human nature.

Anyway, good on Van Dyke for speaking out--my esteem for him has increased five-fold. If Israel wants to finish exterminating literal teenagers and children (mean AND median age of 18!) I can't stop them. But I would like it very much if they didn't use my tax dollars in the process when we can't afford healthcare or service the debt. (I know, what an antisemite am I--literally Hitler. I guess if I admit I admire the Solomon-credited books of the Bible I'd be a cultural appropriator too.)

Wow. This tone aligns with your attitude you track into most every conversation here (and given most of that is related to little Beach Boys related trivia it's whatever). But man, when you track it into a conversation about this real-world life/death situation...it is just astounding you use that many words to only convey your complete lack of understanding of the situation.

[Julia]

Wow. This tone aligns with your attitude you track into most every conversation here (and given most of that is related to little Beach Boys related trivia it's whatever). But man, when you track it into a conversation about this real-world life/death situation...it is just astounding you use that many words to only convey your complete lack of understanding of the situation.

Well, I didn't expect what I said to go without controversy in an era of call-out culture, where certain ideologies are (for some reason) inextricably linked with certain groups of people (Zionists=Jews as far as some are concerned) and those groups are beyond reproach. If I were to say Palestinians and/or Arabs have no culture it's fine, because no one cares about Palestinians or Arabs. It's socially acceptable to use the actions of some among them to justify dehumanizing the many. If I were to imply that Muslims all harbor evil thoughts (as mike just did) it's fine, because some Muslims support terrorism, so they all deserve to be hated. But when I say it's wrong to colonize in the 20-21st centuries, that it isn't justified by a book y'all just made up, that you can't expect to displace a bunch of people and not have them hate you,* the board's self-appointed white knight is on the case to sanctimoniously clutch his pearls. Can't dispute anything I said, can't dispute any of the links I shared, but gotta get that low effort "oh how DARE you!" post in to virtue signal how not-"antisemitic" you are. I'm sure we are all impressed by how moral and good you are for downplaying if not justifying the continued humanitarian crisis perpetuated by an ethnostate whose worldview would absolutely be condemned if it were done by any other group on the planet. What makes Israel's conquest of Palestine any more justified than Russia trying to take Ukraine or China capturing Tibet (and gunning for Taiwan)? Can you or anyone else answer me that? Was George Washington an evil terrorist for killing members of what he saw as an unjust foreign oppressive group in his homeland? (He would've been remembered as such had we lost.)   

*and no, I'm not justifying Hamas' actions but let's be honest for a second--if China decided to settle the unwanted Uyghurs in California by force and told us to just deal with it, would we take that lying down? If we had been born as Native Americans, should we have just accepted our fate as second class citizens and let them push us onto reservations? Put yourself in a Palestinian's shoes for a minute and understand why they're angry, why they might not trust the regime that barrels in with a sledgehammer every time one single nut among them does something bad. I know they're scary brown people of a different faith but it's not hard to empathize with how they turned to an awful regime (and again, most of them are literal children and teens--which is a bona fide fact). I'm not asking to justify the bad they've done so much as acknowledge that real life is complicated and every group is the bad guy in someone else's story. (I guess that makes me evil.)

The Jewish people have suffered centuries of violence and discrimination, let there be no doubt. But because other groups of people in the past were horrible to you, I'm sorry, that doesn't make it ok to colonize other people's land and perpetuate an unequal war against a group of 18 year olds who've known nothing in life but subjugation and suffering. Spare me the feigned outrage for laying down the cold hard truth that, until very recently, very few have had the courage to say. And I guess Van Dyke Parks is evil and stupid too. Or Yitzhak Rabin, a truly great man who wanted peace with Palestine. You know what happened to him? Netanyahu called for his death and held a mock funeral procession, leading some Israeli nut to shoot him in the back. Huh, an Israeli chose violence...the Israelis voted in the anti-peace party of Netanyahu...by your all's logic that means they're all evil and deserve whatever happens next, right? I don't actually think this in case it needs to be said (good ol' Rab's been known for deliberately taking my words in the worst possible way when it suits him)...but then it's also wrong to condemn ALL Palestinians to genocide by the same rationale. It's almost like both sides have blood on their hands at the very least, the difference is we wouldn't even be in this position had it not been for the Zionist zealots. (If anyone ought to have been punished for the egregious wrong done to the Jews and forced to give up some land for them to have their own state, it should have been Germany. The Palestinians were made to pay a debt they didn't accrue and have been demonized for reacting in a way literally anyone would when they're being conquered. Tell me again I don't understand the situation.)

And in case it need be said again, I'm not even pro-Palestine, much less pro-Hamas. I don't have a dog in this fight. I think both cultures have a lot of faults to put it mildly. My beef, the reason I chose to air my opinion, is because I take umbridge with objectively false statements like "Palestine doesn't even have a culture" and the continued obnoxious, low-effort, jingoistic statements by some here. Anyone comes in with a statement more complicated than "durr brown Muslims uncultured and bad" is subjected to low effort, no info, feigned outrage because apparently we're not allowed to consider even the possibility this issue might be more nuanced than "Israel good and valid culture / Palestine bad and no culture." I have a problem when any group is beyond reproach and when any topic forbidden to discuss. I see discourse being curtailed or people being dehumanized, I push back. If that alienates me from other members, or gets me banned to placate the moral outrage brigade, so be it. I'm disgusted by the hypocrisy of any community that would cheer on what's happening and try to make me feel like I'm so unspeakably out of line for calling out the double standard we're expected to hold Israel to.

Sorry for making you read that many words Rab, but some thoughts, some topics, are more complicated than what can fit in a tweet.  Since you're apparently so well-versed on the situation, feel free to share your immense knowledge with the rest of us so that we may improve ourselves and see the light. I'm perfectly willing to admit I'm wrong and eat crow...if the other person actually has anything to say.

[mike s]

Julia you've gone wrong by your second line:  'If I were to say Palestinians and/or Arabs have no culture it's fine, because no one cares about Palestinians or Arabs.'.

[mike s]

'Muslims all harbor evil thoughts (as mike just did)' - I literally didn't say that.