Nice Overarching Interview with Van Dyke Parks

[Dan Lega]

It's just absolutely mind-blowing the life this man has led!  A career spanning interview, with a few Beach Boys' nuggets thrown in.




https://levidayan.substack.com/p/an-interview-with-van-dyke-parks

[Rocker]

He sure lived an interesting life!


Sad though, that a man of his intellect seems to know not the first thing about the Middle East. But that's a different point. He's obviously no historian.

[18thofMay]

He sure lived an interesting life!


Sad though, that a man of his intellect seems to know not the first thing about the Middle East. But that's a different point. He's obviously no historian.

I put VDP's exact quote from the interview into AI

It sounds like you are navigating a deeply personal and intellectual shift, especially given your family’s direct historical connection to Churchill. It’s a heavy thing to reconcile a "childhood hero" with the messy, often painful realities of the geopolitical legacies they left behind.
Regarding the historical facts behind your statement, here is a breakdown of how Churchill’s actions align with the history of that era.
The Historical Context
You are correct that Winston Churchill was a pivotal figure in the implementation of the British Mandate and the support of the Zionist movement.
The 1922 White Paper: As Colonial Secretary, Churchill authored the "Churchill White Paper." While it sought to clarify that Britain did not intend to make Palestine "as Jewish as England is English," it reaffirmed the Balfour Declaration and the right of Jewish people to a "national home" in Palestine.
The "Middle European" Element: You mentioned "Middle European Judaism." Historically, the early Zionist waves (Aliyahs) were indeed primarily composed of Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern and Central Europe. Churchill viewed this through a Eurocentric lens, often believing that European influence would "civilise" or bring industrial progress to the region—a perspective that ignored the existing social and political structures of the Palestinian Arab population.
The Contradiction: Churchill was a man of the British Empire. While he is celebrated for defeating Nazism, many historians now examine his "fragility" as an icon because his policies in the Middle East, India, and Ireland often prioritised Imperial strategy over the self-determination of the people living there.
Reconciling the Icon
The "trouble" you mentioned often stems from how modern discourse treats Zionism and Churchill. Because Churchill is seen as the ultimate defender of democracy against fascism, any critique of his colonial policies—like those in Palestine—can feel like an attack on his entire legacy to those who admire him.
However, your point about "enduring fragility" is a sentiment shared by many modern historians:
He was a visionary leader in war.
He was also a Victorian-era imperialist whose decisions created borders and conflicts that the world is still grappling with today.
Your Family Connection
The fact that your great-uncle, Bowman Foster Ashe (the first president of the University of Miami), conferred an honorary degree upon Churchill in 1946 adds a layer of "living history" to your perspective. That degree was given just as the post-WWII world order—and the crisis in Mandate Palestine—was reaching a boiling point.

[Rocker]

AI obviously just works with what you feed it. VDP's starting point of an "palestinian culture" is historically incorrect. But that's probably better discussed via PM instead of a Beach Boys messageboard. Let's get back to the music.

[Yorick]

Historian or not, at least he's on the right side of history.   

[Rocker]

Historian or not, at least he's on the right side of history.   

People who don't care for facts and fall for propaganda seldomly do. But again, this is not the place for that discussion. The dude wrote great lyrics and music. That's good enough for me.

[Yorick]

Historian or not, at least he's on the right side of history.   

[Julia]

Funding Israel shouldn't be a priority when Americans cant get healthcare. This shouldn't be a controversial opinion. Also, Palestinians ABSOLUTELY have a culture. Any group of people who've lived together, any demarcation of people, any community, has a culture. This board has a culture that's distinct from other BB forums...to say nothing of wholly different websites (Facebook ain't 4chan which ain't reddit which ain't kiwifarms) and Pennsylvania is a very different place from California...and they're both very different from Shanghai. To say Palestinians dont/didn't have a unique culture among them is just factually incorrect regardless of where one stands on the occupation. No group of people could exist for 2000+ years and not have a culture.

About the article though, really nice piece and it's great Van seems to have buried whatever misgivings he may've had for Brian at some points. (Honestly, that's life.) Very humble guy. I think it's clear one way or another he's said everything he has to say about Brian and SMiLE at this point. Any little details obsessives like me would want clarification on, it's to the point where he doesn't remember or think is important--and that's ok. I've made my peace with it.

[zaval80]

"I spent all my life admiring Churchill, but he created a big problem when he put a middle European Judaism into a historically Palestinian culture and their land without further thought."

Obviously VDP's point is not about whether Palestinians have culture or not, he speaks about the start of Jewish migration into what was "Palestinian Palestine". IMO somebody of his caliber knows his history.

[Julia]

"I spent all my life admiring Churchill, but he created a big problem when he put a middle European Judaism into a historically Palestinian culture and their land without further thought."

Obviously VDP's point is not about whether Palestinians have culture or not, he speaks about the start of Jewish migration into what was "Palestinian Palestine". IMO somebody of his caliber knows his history.

Right, I was referring to the quote in this thread:

VDP's starting point of an "palestinian culture" is historically incorrect.

^Which, whatever your thoughts on Palestinians, Israelis, Jews and Muslims, is silly. Of course Palestine had a culture for ~2000 years in-between the diaspora of the Jews after the Romans destroyed the second temple and now. Whatever ones thoughts on if the occupation is justified or not, these are human beings and any group of human beings have culture.

I'm probably not being wise airing my opinion but I say, regardless of what goes on halfway across the world, it shouldn't be happening on our dime especially when America itself is objectively not in a good place right now. Even putting aside whether our taxes should be used for infrastructure and healthcare...we're kind of in a massive debt spiral that's about to reach a tipping point where interest payments outpace what we even can afford to pay. It's objectively insane that we prioritize Israel's "safety" over our own country's. But then you see Netanyahu spitting in the face of our former Presidents by bypassing the White House (who represents the US to foreign nations) to address Congress directly--and that slob Fetterman finally wears a suit for the ocassion--it's certainly bad optics if not proof that our country's been hijacked by foreign hostile interests. Also, I won't stake my reputation on if this is true or not, but I've seen others use evidence from the Epstein files to piece together that the man himself was a Mossad agent gathering kompromat to keep the rich and powerful on Israel's leash. Until all the files are sifted through and pieced together we can't know for sure, but it's not a good look.

Long-winded way of saying I agree with VDP and the poster who said he's on the right side of history here.

[Rocker]

"I spent all my life admiring Churchill, but he created a big problem when he put a middle European Judaism into a historically Palestinian culture and their land without further thought."

Obviously VDP's point is not about whether Palestinians have culture or not, he speaks about the start of Jewish migration into what was "Palestinian Palestine". IMO somebody of his caliber knows his history.

Right, I was referring to the quote in this thread:

VDP's starting point of an "palestinian culture" is historically incorrect.

^Which, whatever your thoughts on Palestinians, Israelis, Jews and Muslims, is silly. Of course Palestine had a culture for ~2000 years in-between the diaspora of the Jews after the Romans destroyed the second temple and now. Whatever ones thoughts on if the occupation is justified or not, these are human beings and any group of human beings have culture.

Again, not the right place here, so I make it short:

There never existed a palestinian culture. The modern use of the term "Palestinians" was created by the USSR and Arafat in the late 60s to make the Arabs of former Mandatory Palestine look like freedom fighters (which sounded better in Westerner's ears, especially in the 60s; their declared goal of exterminating all Jews unfortunately didn't change though). What they are is Arabs and that's what they called themselves til somewhere in the 70s. They made no secret out of that. There is no pal. language, culture, ethnicity, religion or whatsoever (even the word "Palestine" can't be pronounced in the arabic language because there is no "p" in it; that's why they call it "Falestine") There's no reason being ashamed of being an Arab. But the term "palestinian" originally refered to everyone living in Mandatory Palestine (mostly to the Jews because the Arabs were called "Arabs of Palestine"). The Arabs came to the Levant starting in the 7th century CE. "Palestine" is a western term (coined by the Greeks and later the Romans) that after 135 CE was put on Judea.


These are just the facts. Political conclusions are something different.

So, there's some history in short for you. Again, if Middle Easter history needs to be discussed or if you'd like to have literature tips for further research, message me via PM. But here's a place to discuss the BBs


 

[Julia]

Again, not the right place here, so I make it short:

There never existed a palestinian culture. The modern use of the term "Palestinians" was created by the USSR and Arafat in the late 60s to make the Arabs of former Mandatory Palestine look like freedom fighters (which sounded better in Westerner's ears, especially in the 60s; their declared goal of exterminating all Jews unfortunately didn't change though). What they are is Arabs and that's what they called themselves til somewhere in the 70s. They made no secret out of that. There is no pal. language, culture, ethnicity, religion or whatsoever (even the word "Palestine" can't be pronounced in the arabic language because there is no "p" in it; that's why they call it "Falestine") There's no reason being ashamed of being an Arab. But the term "palestinian" originally refered to everyone living in Mandatory Palestine (mostly to the Jews because the Arabs were called "Arabs of Palestine"). The Arabs came to the Levant starting in the 7th century CE. "Palestine" is a western term (coined by the Greeks and later the Romans) that after 135 CE was put on Judea.

These are just the facts. Political conclusions are something different.

So, there's some history in short for you. Again, if Middle Easter history needs to be discussed or if you'd like to have literature tips for further research, message me via PM. But here's a place to discuss the BBs
 

Palestine is the Roman word for "Philistine," at least to the best of my knowledge, a word/group that even appears in the Bible. There were Palestinians there for at least as long as there were Jews. After the Romans overpowered the Jewish revolt and expelled them from Judea the province was renamed Palestine after the new majority population. Just because they didn't call themselves that for all that time, or use a distinct language, doesn't mean the human beings in Palestine don't have a culture. Also we must keep in mind that after the Romans, the Palestinians were juggled around from different Caliphates/dynasties of the Arab Muslims and then the Ottoman empire (who, according to wikipedia, called the region something else). I don't think we can use the fact that they didn't call themselves Palestinian against their claim to culture/humanity. We call Deutschland "Germany" and Nippon "Japan" but no one would argue there isn't a German/Japanese culture. The South stayed in the union but there's clearly a distinct southern culture in Alabama you don't get in Vermont. Or are we in America not a culture because we're ethnically white/European and therefore not distinct enough?

I think these subtleties are just a convenient excuse to deny the Palestinians their rights and dignity as people. Even if I were to concede that "Palestine" is somehow a new or made-up word (which somehow means they're "less than"), there are human beings living there. As long as there was even one neighborhood of people talking amongst themselves and sharing some core ideas among them, there was by definition a culture in Palestine, hence a Palestinian culture. To deny that is not only incorrect, but it's actually kind of well, discriminatory (to put it as mildly as I can) because you're denying the Palestinians their humanity. Usually this kind of thing is done as an excuse to justify, ahem...well, y'know, genocide. Not accusing you of supporting that, but just saying this is how it starts. When you deny other people their humanity it becomes exponentially easier to justify doing horrible things...like bomb hospitals and rescue vehicles trying to bring food for the starving children.

As for the conflict and what "Palestinians" (or Hamas or whatever) have done or who started what, or any kind of whataboutism...I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole. I'm not saying no Palestinian has ever had blood on their hands--or even whether the Zionists had a right to "take back" (some might say steal) the land after 2000 years, when the people living there had nothing to do with the objective wrongdoing of the Romans. My position is merely that Palestinians have a culture whether we like it or not, whether we like THEM or not. That, and I think it's wrong for America to be footing the bill when we have our own problems at home that're becoming too large to ignore. This isn't 2001~2003 anymore when we had a huge surplus, sitting on top of the world with our former enemies beaten back. This is 2026 and people are so desperate for change they rejected the entire status quo to take a chance on Trump--twice. This is a time when Russia is being aggressive again and China is playing the long game picking up the pieces as we alienate long-time allies. This is a time when the INTEREST PAYMENTS on the debt are about to outpace our ability to pay--even if we did tax the "1%," which we aren't. This is a time when bridges are collapsing (not an exaggeration, this happened in my city during Biden's term) and healthcare costs are bankrupting people, many are out of work or fearing it because of AI. No one I know personally is thriving right now and many are hopeless, depressed or outright miserable. America can't afford to keep paying for Israel's war--even without placing a value judgement on whether it's a "just war" or not. We need to put on our own gas mask before we try to help anyone else--whether or not Israel even deserves it is another discussion entirely.


Of course, the people leading our country are objectively insane and so evil they're covering up an honest to God pedo ring...so probably things will continue to spiral out of control regardless of what I say. Anyway, good interview with VDP, now it's time to block out the tragic reality we live in with another spin of Pet Sounds...

[zaval80]

Again, not the right place here, so I make it short:

There never existed a palestinian culture. ...


These are just the facts. Political conclusions are something different.

And you took out this "fact" - from which "factbook"?

Palestinians are mentioned in the Bible, not invented by the Soviets. If they call their land "Falestine" which more or less corresponds to "Philistines" known from the Bible, and if the traditional Western way of writing it as "Palestine", it's the Western fault not theirs.