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678323 Posts in 27401 Topics by 4045 Members - Latest Member: reecemorgan January 27, 2023, 01:05:46 PM
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Author Topic: Sail On Sailor box set  (Read 32670 times)
HeyJude
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« Reply #250 on: December 27, 2022, 10:15:17 AM »

I have a lot more to say about all of this, and I disagree with a lot of what’s expressed in the previous post, but I have to speak briefly to the potential direction for the archival program.

While I’m not opposed to reissuing the post-“Sunshine Tomorrow” late 60s archival sets in CD/deluxe set form at some point somehow, I really don’t view is as nearly as much of a priority as moving forward through the post-1973 material.

Yes, of course, there is going to have to be some re-orienting of the target/intended audience for such releases. I think the people involved in these sets understand how some material is going to have to be targeted more directly to “hardcore” fans. We may well not see such album-specific packages.

What we may well see is a multi-pronged approach where material is reformatted/reintroduced to new potential fans (and this is where working in some of that 1967-69 archival material could work), while also continuing to do the important work of documenting what is STILL a trove of quality unreleased material post-1973.

Newer, younger fans can be turned on to more BB material without giving up more deep-dive archival releases. We’re finally at a stage where the band are greenlighting *multi-disc* sets of 70s outtakes. This is huge. I think it’s important to use the momentum, to use the band finally understanding the intrinsic value of the archival material, to make sure we hear the best unreleased material from the rest of the 70s and even 80s.
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« Reply #251 on: December 27, 2022, 10:24:30 AM »

Also, as to the issue of friction/politics within the BB organization and how that impacts these deluxe releases, I think what we have is really the best-case scenario (at least while the band members are still with us). Let's remember how things were 5 or 10 or certainly 20-plus years ago. The politics were worse, and it was like pulling teeth to get *any* Brother-era material released. It was like a miracle to get the end of the second disc of "Hawthorne, CA" to include a few early 70s tracks.

Yes, the band members are still involved. And the people working on these sets know how to work both with and around all of that. Al wants to do a weird re-edit on the "Saga" trilogy? Why not? Is it worth tanking the set to tell him no? This way, we get the set, Al gets to feel involved, and while that particular edit seems useless to most fans, as a general rule having the band members involved is a *good* thing.

As we move past 1973, there's going to be more and more material that involves these other members. And there's stuff from ALL of them from 1974 through the 80s that I want to hear, and there is quality material there.

Would I rather hear a disc of "MIU" outtakes at this point that I've never heard, rather than seeing a physical reissue of "Live Sunshine?" Yes, absolutely. Ideally, we'll get both. And as I said earlier, I don't think they should stop looking at ways to push progressive, lesser-known material to new/younger fans, and that will mean sometimes re-showcasing some late 60s stuff because there is a limit to how much of an influx of new fans we're going to get from hearing a pristine alternate version of "Oh, Darlin'." But ALL of the this stuff should be released.

And I really don't like the idea of backsliding back into re-forgetting the post-60s stuff.
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« Reply #252 on: December 27, 2022, 09:24:24 PM »

I've wanted to do a long post for a while but just haven't had the energy to do so.

Anyways though, has anybody pointed out that Brian is singing some kinda lyrics during "Spark in the Dark"? Maybe it was more of a song and less of a "jam" than we were lead to believe.
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« Reply #253 on: December 28, 2022, 07:33:14 AM »

I have a lot more to say about all of this, and I disagree with a lot of what’s expressed in the previous post, but I have to speak briefly to the potential direction for the archival program.

While I’m not opposed to reissuing the post-“Sunshine Tomorrow” late 60s archival sets in CD/deluxe set form at some point somehow, I really don’t view is as nearly as much of a priority as moving forward through the post-1973 material.

Jude, you do realize that it will be 3-4 years before anything like the magnitude of what's appeared on FF and SOS will be feasible, per the copyright extension mandate? That means that what we're likely to see in 2023-25 is essentially restricted to a live set.

Yes, of course, there is going to have to be some re-orienting of the target/intended audience for such releases. I think the people involved in these sets understand how some material is going to have to be targeted more directly to “hardcore” fans. We may well not see such album-specific packages.

What we may well see is a multi-pronged approach where material is reformatted/reintroduced to new potential fans (and this is where working in some of that 1967-69 archival material could work), while also continuing to do the important work of documenting what is STILL a trove of quality unreleased material post-1973.

"Post-'73," yes. But, specifically, 1973-75? Not seeing it. AGD's session logs at Bellagio show primarily Dennis material in that time frame, which is tied mostly to POB.

Keep in mind that the '67-'69 stuff got restricted to digital due in part to the politics at that time. Given the mountain of material there, which gives the FF period a run for its money and is demonstrably more prolific in nature than SOS because Brian is much more active during that time, it seems like a time frame that should be revisited now that the band members are more on board with the archival program as a physical manifestation of their legacy.

Newer, younger fans can be turned on to more BB material without giving up more deep-dive archival releases. We’re finally at a stage where the band are greenlighting *multi-disc* sets of 70s outtakes. This is huge. I think it’s important to use the momentum, to use the band finally understanding the intrinsic value of the archival material, to make sure we hear the best unreleased material from the rest of the 70s and even 80s.

Nowhere did I suggest that they shouldn't continue with combing through the 70s material. The tacit consensus seems to be that there will be a set to exploit the golden age of the live band, followed by some form of a multi-set that will document the "Brian is back" era (15BO and Love You, plus possibly Adult Child). But that set isn't likely to see the light of day till 2026. Going back and doing more lavish justice to part one of the "Bellagio period" is something that can be put together and appear anytime between mid-2023 and late 2025.

The point I was making was that with momentum from the band now in place, doing full justice to what were essentially copyright dumps that happened for SS/WH/Friends/2020 would be a good way to use the time in between future likely releases. While the first two (SS/WH) got a physical release, they were nothing like what was done on FF and SOS. And Friends/2020 was just a download. That's what I was referring to in my post as "suboptimal." You want young fans to have little or no added guidance to that pivotal period other than a digital download? Die-hard fans bought that, and we did so because that's all they would give us. They can do better in terms of representing that period, and they have time to do that before they get to MIU/LA/KTSA.

As far as hearing MIU outtakes, I'm sure you'll get them--in 2027/28. But if SOS has been overpriced to the point where sales are appreciably lower than FF, one can legitmately worry about what type of effort/budget will be put into future grand projects. If that's so, then a really well-done compilation from the SS/WH/Friends/2020 period could at least ensure that the 1967-73 period received a truly uniform level of exposure for die-hard fans and for that sought-after younger audience.
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HeyJude
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« Reply #254 on: December 29, 2022, 06:51:43 AM »

Yes, I was very much speaking to post-1973 rather than specifically 73-75.

Given that the team working on archival stuff are actively working stuff up and pitching stuff, I haven’t just assumed there’s going to be zero movement on all future archival releases until each year or era hits the 50 year mark. In other words, I think they should probably look at addressing like “LA (Light Album)” material sooner than 2028/2029, at which point Mike will be nearing 90 years old and even second generation fans will be hitting Social Security age. There’s no mandate or rule that they can’t put the stuff out *prior* to the precise 50-year mark to protect it.

You have to remember that selling *the band members* on the post-60s stuff is always going to be more challenging, and I feel like putting that stuff on hold for like 3 or 4 years and going back to 67-69 stuff will kind of stunt the progress that has been made.

But yes, I think we’re all kind of wanting the same things, it’s just a question of what order we get it in, and how much Release A tends to delay Release B. So yes, if I knew they had like a 10-year plan mapped out and nothing planned for 2023-2025 as far as more 70s outtakes, then sure, why not give the great work they did on the 67-69 archival releases a nice, lavish package. But I think other things are planned (and sure, a larger live set certainly make sense), and I think a Caribou-to-MIU sort of set coming out in the next year or two would be much, much more desirable than a reissue of the late 60s stuff. A sort of “Bedroom Tapes” themed type of set, not so much having to use that title, but to play off of the legend of that era as described in a few articles in the past.

I realize the realities of the industry and the band politics (though, with Iconic now owning a majority stake in all of it, one would hope the politics are less of an issue as time goes by), and I’ve been the first to point out for many years how delicate it is to pitch post-60s archival material, and how many markets/demographics have to be looked at.

But I also think, with the momentum of DOZENS of discs worth of 1967-1973 unreleased material having seen release in the last five years, there is also an opportunity to finally push a little harder for archival releases for the hardcore fans. I think all that are in the loop working on this stuff know that “MIU” outtakes aren’t going to sell as well as even “Sunflower/Surf’s Up” era material. But, as part of a multi-prong approach to continuing to market and sell this band, I think continuing going through the 70s and 80s a little sooner rather than later, before fans that were introduced to the band in the NINETIES starting hitting 50-60 years old, might be a good idea.
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« Reply #255 on: December 29, 2022, 12:57:19 PM »

I have a lot of thoughts about this, but they're kind of disjointed.

On one hand, yes the Smiley Smile through 20/20 period features consistently great material, released and not. On the other hand, because that material is consistently great we've seen it parceled out as bonus tracks and in special releases for the last 30 years. The Brother material is so much fresher, at least to my ears.

Are physical releases even that big of a deal anymore? Do they earn new fans? Or do they simply resell largely familiar material to the same audience that has bought BB/BW product for ages?

My local record retailer sounded a little burned by the last couple of big boxes. He couldn't move Feel Flows sets and ended up not ordering as many of the Sail on Sailor. I had to special order the vinyl box from him (this is a college town with an active music shop).

At a certain point, the train does run out. There's a Brian's Back set out there for sure, and something mopping up the odds and ends from the late 70s through the soundtrack work of the 80s. Obviously live sets, including the '93 unplugged shows, could follow. But that's not a lot of material, and it appeals to a narrower and narrower slice of the fanbase.

Perhaps at some point the archivists will double back and start doing ultra-deluxe reissues of the '60s albums with session material and stack of vocal mixes and 78s tossed in.
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HeyJude
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« Reply #256 on: December 29, 2022, 01:24:22 PM »

While boxed sets have been around forever, the newer trend of large releases (often of old albums or eras) with multiple SKUS, culminating in the “Super Deluxe Edition” (a term which even Beatles-related releases have taken on), is very much a thing. I think it’s partly a prestige thing, to have that big, super deluxe set in physical form to represent the release, even if plenty of folks are streaming the stuff. Certainly, 60s/70s artists putting these sets out will see a larger proportion of their fanbase still seeking out physical releases. And, while I find it largely a big circle jerk at this point, vinyl is very, very trendy and lucrative. So that’s another “prestige” item to get out there.

I do think digital-only releases probably make very, very little money, so more expensive physical sets probably do bring in more money if they’re willing to lay out the money on the front end to do it.

But yes, I do think this stuff is fine to just put out digitally, at least in some cases. If digital-only is what it takes to get late 70s and 80s outtakes, I’m okay with that. That’s why, while I wouldn’t oppose a physical releases of the 67-69 material that has been digital-only, I don’t view it as a big priority. Then it becomes a question of, are we just trying to get this literally on a physical disc, or are we talking about a whole other ball of  wax that is essentially *re-launching* the material in totally repackaged/reconfigured form in a “Feel Flows/Sail on Sailor” sort of deluxe package?

I do think we’re at a bit of an inflection point when it comes to hardcore Beach Boys fans. I’d never deny that like “Keepin’ the Summer Alive” outtakes or a thorough audio document of the ’82 Rumbo sessions are going to be pretty niche/hardcore territory. But in an era where a lot of movie fans seem more fixated on being junior box office prognosticators rather than just talking about and watching what they want and like, I don’t want this to happen with this BB music. I think we need to push HARD to get the archival releases to continue. I think there are MANY discs left of 1974-80s/90s material worth releasing. Studio material. I think there’s stuff in the archives we don’t even know about. Yes, I know, some self-described “hardcore” fans already drop off when it gets to even the “So Tough” era, let alone the later stuff. But when I envisioned the ideal archival program for the Beach Boys, I never pictured stopping at “Holland”, giving up and throwing our hands in the air, and retreating to 60s material AGAIN.

Now, again, ideally *all* of the eras will be addressed by the archive team and Iconic. Just like this year, where we got a “Sounds of Summer” expansion, and then also the SOS set.
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« Reply #257 on: December 29, 2022, 01:35:03 PM »

Hopefully with the release of the Sail On Sailor set we have bid farewell to the last of Susie Cincinnati but, perhaps, we should be bracing ourselves for several years of Shortnin' Bread ..... followed by Proud Mary .....
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« Reply #258 on: January 01, 2023, 09:58:33 AM »

I've wanted to do a long post for a while but just haven't had the energy to do so.

Anyways though, has anybody pointed out that Brian is singing some kinda lyrics during "Spark in the Dark"? Maybe it was more of a song and less of a "jam" than we were lead to believe.
Interesting that the "spark in the dark" phrase came to be used in 'Funky Pretty' but I don't hear any connection musically. Maybe someone else would? But yes, it seems to me that the rhythm of the notes in 'Spark In the Dark' strongly suggest the same rhythm that could be used for the words "spark in the dark". I hear the words softly sung at about 1:29 as "Used to be the flame in your heart, now I'm just a flash in the dark". The 'Spark In The Dark' track sounds like it could have been the basis for a cool song in 1972. I saw it being suggested that at least some the of this track  later inspired the Brian Wilson/ Andy Paley song 'Chain Reaction of Love'.
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« Reply #259 on: January 02, 2023, 09:38:42 PM »

Hopefully with the release of the Sail On Sailor set we have bid farewell to the last of Susie Cincinnati

Why would you think that? Don't forget that a different mix of "Susie Cincinnati" appeared on 15 Big Ones! So I assume there'd probably be yet another remix for a Brian's Back type set in the future.

By the way, does anybody know what releases contain the 1970 single mix of "Susie"? I feel like it's probably not many.
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« Reply #260 on: January 03, 2023, 06:38:37 AM »

A number of tracks have been remixed and remixed again in various permutations, so I don't mind "Susie Cincinnati" being all over the "Feel Flows" set.

I saw some people complaining about the song being on the "Sail on Sailor" set over on the Hoffman board, and I had to conclude they probably hadn't actually listened to the set and were just looking at the tracklisting (and seemingly one with no track descriptors), as the "version" of the song on the SOS set is such a different scenario/context, I can't imagine why anybody would complain. It's not another remix of the same studio version, it's part of a super random but tantalizing home recording of Brian from the "Holland" era. It's clearly there because there aren't exactly hours and hours of random audio of Brian noodling while in Holland.

So yeah, if there's also tape of Brian and Dennis riffing on "Susie Cincinnati" on part of the "Cocaine Tape" that we haven't heard, I'd be fine with that being released too.
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« Reply #261 on: January 03, 2023, 10:47:01 AM »

Hopefully with the release of the Sail On Sailor set we have bid farewell to the last of Susie Cincinnati

Why would you think that? Don't forget that a different mix of "Susie Cincinnati" appeared on 15 Big Ones! So I assume there'd probably be yet another remix for a Brian's Back type set in the future.

By the way, does anybody know what releases contain the 1970 single mix of "Susie"? I feel like it's probably not many.

I believe the original single mix of Susie is on the Very Best..., Vol. 3 that came out around 2000!
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« Reply #262 on: January 03, 2023, 04:48:25 PM »

The most insane missed opportunity for 1973-4 would be if they don’t release ENDLESS SUMMER LIVE- something like a live LP of 1973-5 recordings with a similar sequence to the original LP, with cover art showing the actual BBs as they appeared in the era with a cover design that looks like the Endless Summer LP.
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« Reply #263 on: January 04, 2023, 10:16:22 AM »

Interesting concept, I like it. What would you suggest they do for the songs from that era and release that were never perfrmed live then...i.e. Let Him Run Wild, Girl on the Beach, and a couple others I think. Like the idea though.
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« Reply #264 on: January 04, 2023, 02:11:12 PM »

Hopefully with the release of the Sail On Sailor set we have bid farewell to the last of Susie Cincinnati

Why would you think that? Don't forget that a different mix of "Susie Cincinnati" appeared on 15 Big Ones! So I assume there'd probably be yet another remix for a Brian's Back type set in the future.

By the way, does anybody know what releases contain the 1970 single mix of "Susie"? I feel like it's probably not many.

D'OH!
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Don Malcolm
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« Reply #265 on: January 04, 2023, 03:50:54 PM »

The most insane missed opportunity for 1973-4 would be if they don’t release ENDLESS SUMMER LIVE- something like a live LP of 1973-5 recordings with a similar sequence to the original LP, with cover art showing the actual BBs as they appeared in the era with a cover design that looks like the Endless Summer LP.

Actually 74-75, but that's a nitpick...it is a great idea. I'd love to see the "scholar base" step up into this thread and flesh out that idea with what they know about the available live performances in the time frame.

Since the followup compilation SPIRIT OF AMERICA also came out in 1975, they should also cherry-pick tracks from there as well, since there are going to be track where they have no coverage.

Here's a list of the tracks in the order they appeared on those two sets...if someone with the requisite knowledge wants to start filling in, that would be cool!

ENDLESS SUMMER
Surfin Safari
Surfer Girl
Catch A Wave
The Warmth of the Sun
Surfin' USA
Be True to Your School
Little Deuce Coupe
In My Room
Shut Down
Fun, Fun, Fun
I Get Around
The Girls on the Beach
Wendy
Let Him Run Wild
Don't Worry Baby
California Girls
Girl Don't Tell Me
Help Me Rhonda
You're So Good to Me
All Summer Long

SPIRIT OF AMERICA
Dance, Dance, Dance
Break Away
A Young Man Is Gone
409
The Little Girl I Once Knew
Spirit of America
Little Honda
Hushabye
Hawaii
Drive-In
Good to My Baby
Tell Me Why
Do You Remember
This Car of Mine
Please Let Me Wonder
Why Do Fools Fall in Love
Custom Machine
Barbara Ann
Salt Lake City
Don't Back Down
When I Grow Up to Be A Man
Do You Wanna Dance?
Graduation Day

Maybe they can license some live tracks from later time frames for some tracks--Brian's band used to open with "Little Girl I Once Knew," for example.  And there must be a couple of versions of these that could be represented by some incarnation of the Mike & Bruce band.

For a two-CD set, you'd need, what, 35-40 songs? A portion of the second CD could toss in some other live highlights, so long as they weren't too repetitive with other live releases. It all  likely comes down to dollars-and-sense: will they want to do the work required to make a solid product if it's only a single CD? How much can they charge for it, and how many are they likely to sell? Or do you package it as a "special concept" within a larger live set that also contains tracks from the 66-73 time frame?
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« Reply #266 on: January 04, 2023, 07:38:47 PM »

No need for ‘Liitle Girl…’ from either Brian or M&B. It was a regular during the C50 in 2012.

https://youtu.be/olL00y1RN_g
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« Reply #267 on: January 04, 2023, 10:52:20 PM »

At a certain point, the train does run out. There's a Brian's Back set out there for sure, and something mopping up the odds and ends from the late 70s through the soundtrack work of the 80s. Obviously live sets, including the '93 unplugged shows, could follow. But that's not a lot of material, and it appeals to a narrower and narrower slice of the fanbase.

Perhaps at some point the archivists will double back and start doing ultra-deluxe reissues of the '60s albums with session material and stack of vocal mixes and 78s tossed in.

I'm definitely in favor of this particular proposal!
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« Reply #268 on: January 05, 2023, 06:43:17 AM »

I wouldn’t be opposed to a potential project that used some “Endless Summer” imagery/theming (in one of the podcasts Howie did on the “Sounds of Summer” reissue, he talked about an early idea to expand “Endless Summer” instead, but I think the label understandably saw that for the purposes of RIAA certifications, it was better to do “Sounds of Summer”).

But it would be tricky to try to line it up that much with the original album tracklisting if they wanted to stick to 74-75 live stuff. By my rough count, around half of the 20 “Endless Summer” tracks were rarely or never performed in the early-mid 70s. I don’t think they ever did stuff like “Girl Don’t Tel Me” or “Girls on the Beach”, and in the 74-75 time frame they were not regularly if ever doing stuff like “Surfin’ Safari”, “Shut Down”, “Be True to Your School”, “Wendy”, “All Summer Long”, etc. And if they did occasionally do some of these, they may well have not been captured on a usable recording. If they expanded it through the end of the 70s and into the early 80s, they could find recordings of more of these. But I don’t think they added something like “Surfin’ Safari” back into the setlist until around 1981, and “Wendy” only sporadically showed up in 1984 and then later into the 80s and 90s. They weirdly never regularly did “All Summer Long”, though it came and went a few times.

Same deal with “Spirit of America.” A number of that album’s songs were never performed live. Again, by my count roughly half of the album. And very little of it was done in the 74-75 time frame.

And really, I see issuing live archival material as having two main purposes: Full length recordings of individual shows which showcase the whole show from a given time frame, and then compilations that look for interesting and noteworthy performances. What I don’t necessarily need is a “Greatest Hits Live” sort of formulation (though any multi-disc compilation of live stuff would by default feature a ton of hits as well anyway).

So I think such a live set would really kind of just have to use the titles and/or covers/imagery as the basis, and then the tracklisting would have to just be a fresh look at some sort of theme/prompt for how to pick tracks. And again, I’d say either a larger (maybe digital only?) set with multiple complete shows from 1973 to 1975, and/or a compilation that focuses on the best performances and most interesting/unique/rare song selections.

A career-spanning selection to cover more tracks would of course be cool, although I don't think (nor would I want) there to be any solo stuff or post-1997 Mike stuff. I don't think we're ever going to see a post-1997 live recording (barring 2012 of course) of Mike's band released under the "Beach Boys" name.

I suspect, though, that if they can finagle all of the Beach Boys sets from the “Beachago” ’75 recordings (I believe they have some but not all currently), then that might end up (deservedly) getting its own release as a “1975 Tour” sort of deal.
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« Reply #269 on: January 12, 2023, 06:20:31 AM »

Nice Ken Sharp interview with Howie about the SOS set and era:

https://rockcellarmagazine.com/howie-edelson-interview-beach-boys-sail-on-sailor-mike-love/#main
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« Reply #270 on: January 12, 2023, 02:07:36 PM »


This is great. Thanks!

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« Reply #271 on: January 15, 2023, 08:58:45 AM »



Very nice, thank you!
Maybe Howie could elaborate a little on the sessions for "He come down" and Brian's contributions. It certainly sounds like something I would like to hear.
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« Reply #272 on: January 15, 2023, 11:55:43 AM »

Here's the video of the November Grammy Museum Sail on Sailor event with Howie and Mike:

https://watch.grammymuseum.org/spotlight/videos/celebrating-the-beach-boys-sail-on-sailor-1972
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