SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss

[Dan Lega]

 Maybe Van Dyke didn't think it was professional to ask string players to wear fire helmets

Van Dyke Parks wearing a firehat:


Brian and a mystery engineer or assistant engineer also wearing the hats. Can anyone identify the engineer with the white shirt, tie, and firehat behind Brian?

Hmmmm.....

I thought I had read somewhere where Van Dyke said he thought Brian was not being professional in asking the instrumentalists to wear fire hats.  Or perhaps I'm just thinking that's what he meant when he voiced his displeasure at the Fire session? 

And to my point, I will say Van Dyke doesn't look very happy in that picture!   

[rab2591]

Was that footage from the Fire sessions? I seem to remember there being a session where attendees wore fire hats but it wasn't a 'Fire' session? Or maybe I'm remembering some session incorrectly.

[Julia]

Was that footage from the Fire sessions? I seem to remember there being a session where attendees wore fire hats but it wasn't a 'Fire' session? Or maybe I'm remembering some session incorrectly.

Theres also that Fire promo short where they wear the hats but I haven't seen it in awhile so Im not sure if VDP cameoed or not.

It may be a good idea to point out that Van went along with some things he wasnt comfortable with, like the Psychedelic Sounds and also he and Brian are not perfectly reliable witnesses. In fact I think theyre both some of the least reliable while Vosse and Anderle are by far the best.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

And I love VDP since my father bought "Smiley Smile" in 1967. I was just a kid, but spent many nights listening to that magic music on headphomes and dreaming about what could be happening in and around that little house on the cover. What were those oh so menacing Wind Chimes after? Somebody's soul? (Maybe you get why I don't care much for how many copies records sell.)
And that extremely mysterious ("wraithlike" as he has been called) Van Dyke Parks just added to that spell. Somehow, I knew that an important part  of that magic had come from him.

Smiley Smile was the very first BB album I bought , in either late 1995 or early 1996 ! I had just purchased BW88 the day before on cassette for 99 cents and that was my next purchase!

[Zenobi]

What was your first impression of Smiley, Billy? Maybe it was not so surprising just after listening to Rio Grande.

[Julia]

Has anyone here heard Smiley AFTER SMiLE, be-it a really good bootleg, BWPS, TSS or a fanmix? I'm curious if that made their intro to Smiley better or worse.

For some reason I opted to listen to Smiley after getting obsessed with Pet Sounds and Pepper as a 16 year old around 2008. Even though BWPS was around by then I was put off by the lack of Beach Boys and Brians old voice once i got thru Heroes so I said "nah, I dont want my intro to this music to be a pseudo cover band, Ill take the closest we have to the real thing from the Beach Boys." I knew Smiley was a scaled down version but I thought "well so it wont have as many overdubs or whatever, who cares?" Thinking itd be like a Today to SMiLE's Pet Sounds, or even just a lateral move from PS instead of topping it. Needless to say I was shocked and disappointed. So much so that I lost all  interest in SMiLE for almost two full years. Then i saw the Beautiful Dreamer documentary, found bootlegs uploaded to YouTube (first track I heard besides GV and H&V was Odeon CIFOTM) and the rest is history.

EDIT: before anyone gets cross, the quote about BWPS as a pseudocover band reflects my thoughts at the time not necessarily now

[BJL]

Has anyone here heard Smiley AFTER SMiLE, be-it a really good bootleg, BWPS, TSS or a fanmix? I'm curious if that made their intro to Smiley better or worse.

For some reason I opted to listen to Smiley after getting obsessed with Pet Sounds and Pepper as a 16 year old around 2008. Even though BWPS was around by then I was put off by the lack of Beach Boys and Brians old voice once i got thru Heroes so I said "nah, I dont want my intro to this music to be a pseudo cover band, Ill take the closest we have to the real thing from the Beach Boys." I knew Smiley was a scaled down version but I thought "well so it wont have as many overdubs or whatever, who cares?" Thinking itd be like a Today to SMiLE's Pet Sounds, or even just a lateral move from PS instead of topping it. Needless to say I was shocked and disappointed. So much so that I lost all  interest in SMiLE for almost two full years. Then i saw the Beautiful Dreamer documentary, found bootlegs uploaded to YouTube (first track I heard besides GV and H&V was Odeon CIFOTM) and the rest is history.

EDIT: before anyone gets cross, the quote about BWPS as a pseudocover band reflects my thoughts at the time not necessarily now

My introduction to Smile (and I can't have been alone in this) was disc 3 of the Good Vibrations boxed set. Not sure exactly how old I was but I think around 6th or 7th grade. I was already obsessed with Pet Sounds and the Today/Summer Days twofer. The Smile music in that form totally blew me away. At some point around that time I downloaded some additional bootlegs on Napster (I guess that dates this moment! How long was Napster a thing for?) and acquired a copy of Look, Listen, Vibrate, Smile. Shortly thereafter I got the Smiley/Wild Honey twofer, for Christmas I think. I don't remember my first impression of Smiley that precisely. But I think I had been primed by everything I had read and heard about it for it to be basically just a worse version of the Smile music I knew, and to my ears at the time, that's exactly what I got. But I fell in love with Wild Honey, and because they were on the same CD, I kept sort of accidentally listening to Smiley, and at some point it clicked that this was its own weird, interesting thing.

[Zenobi]

Imho Smiley is not better or worse than SMiLE... just... different. The uncanniest thing about Smiley is just that it manages to be SO different. It's like a shadow projected by SMiLE.

[Julia]

Imho Smiley is not better or worse than SMiLE... just... different. The uncanniest thing about Smiley is just that it manages to be SO different. It's like a shadow projected by SMiLE.

Thats a nice way to put it.

Personally I think Smiley is a lot worse than SMiLE's fragments but I love it anyway. It'd be a shame if we never got to hear an album with Smiley's unique aesthetic.

(I wanted to bump this thread back to the front page--I felt bad for burying it by commenting on old threads as I archived them.)

[doinnothin]

Looking at some of the Pet Sounds Sessionography on the new Beach Boys Sessions site, I wonder if we were a lot further from a completed Smile than we usually think. People will often say, we were so close, they just needed to record a few vocals and it was done, but "Wouldn't It Be Nice" went through 2 complete and tossed out vocals before arriving at the one we know and still had a bunch more meddling done on it vocally before it was "ready" in Brian's eyes. On "You Still Believe In Me", Brian redid his whole lead vocal a month after recording it.

As close as it seems that even something like "Wonderful" was to being done, Brian didn't even seem satisfied with the track yet. Things that were arguably releasable before the plug got pulled:

Prayer
Heroes & Villains (Feb. 10 Version)
Wonderful
Surf's Up (Piano Demo)
Wind Chimes
Fire (Instrumental)
You're Welcome

That's only about 20 minutes, and at least half of that's stuff that Brian likely wouldn't okay.

[Julia]

Looking at some of the Pet Sounds Sessionography on the new Beach Boys Sessions site, I wonder if we were a lot further from a completed Smile than we usually think. People will often say, we were so close, they just needed to record a few vocals and it was done, but "Wouldn't It Be Nice" went through 2 complete and tossed out vocals before arriving at the one we know and still had a bunch more meddling done on it vocally before it was "ready" in Brian's eyes. On "You Still Believe In Me", Brian redid his whole lead vocal a month after recording it.

As close as it seems that even something like "Wonderful" was to being done, Brian didn't even seem satisfied with the track yet. Things that were arguably releasable before the plug got pulled:

Prayer
Heroes & Villains (Feb. 10 Version)
Wonderful
Surf's Up (Piano Demo)
Wind Chimes
Fire (Instrumental)
You're Welcome

That's only about 20 minutes, and at least half of that's stuff that Brian likely wouldn't okay.

Yeah i think a 67, pre-Pepper SMiLE was possible but only if theres no single. If the months of Jan thru April aren't wasted on that it couldve been done and in theory would've only taken a few days to get the vocals (plus the 1 or 2 backing tracks still needed) but Brian being the perfectionist he was realistically it would've been another 3 months I reckon. They were never gonna hit that January 15 deadline.

[mike s]

It was mostly vox that needed doing.  Loads of tracking had been done - pretty much all of it really.  I think it fell over when Brian started second guessing himself - I mean why rework a nicely arranged track like WC..?  It was fine as it was - and notice he went back to it in '04 and not the 93 box set effort.

[Julia]

It was mostly vox that needed doing.  Loads of tracking had been done - pretty much all of it really.  I think it fell over when Brian started second guessing himself - I mean why rework a nicely arranged track like WC..?  It was fine as it was - and notice he went back to it in '04 and not the 93 box set effort.

My theory is he was really into "bisociative" and pictorial composition where each prominent instrument in the major songs was meant to evoke a specific object or place, with the overall arrangement creating an image in the listeners mind. So its not enough that a song like WC sounds good as it was in Pet Sounds, it needs to sound like actual WC. Version 1 kinda does that but Version 2 is so much better in that way.

Just a theory and not saying it wasnt still maybe a misguided working philosophy but its the only explanation i can come up with. The Tobelman site, while mostly fanciful nonsense, makes a good case for how important The Art of Creation was to Brian's MO

[mike s]

It was mostly vox that needed doing.  Loads of tracking had been done - pretty much all of it really.  I think it fell over when Brian started second guessing himself - I mean why rework a nicely arranged track like WC..?  It was fine as it was - and notice he went back to it in '04 and not the 93 box set effort.

My theory is he was really into "bisociative" and pictorial composition where each prominent instrument in the major songs was meant to evoke a specific object or place, with the overall arrangement creating an image in the listeners mind. So its not enough that a song like WC sounds good as it was in Pet Sounds, it needs to sound like actual WC. Version 1 kinda does that but Version 2 is so much better in that way.

Just a theory and not saying it wasnt still maybe a misguided working philosophy but its the only explanation i can come up with. The Tobelman site, while mostly fanciful nonsense, makes a good case for how important The Art of Creation was to Brian's MO

Sure but I mean the ABC format of the '93' version - or ABCD if you accept the bit Vosse was talking about.  Its just odd.

[Julia]

It was mostly vox that needed doing.  Loads of tracking had been done - pretty much all of it really.  I think it fell over when Brian started second guessing himself - I mean why rework a nicely arranged track like WC..?  It was fine as it was - and notice he went back to it in '04 and not the 93 box set effort.

My theory is he was really into "bisociative" and pictorial composition where each prominent instrument in the major songs was meant to evoke a specific object or place, with the overall arrangement creating an image in the listeners mind. So its not enough that a song like WC sounds good as it was in Pet Sounds, it needs to sound like actual WC. Version 1 kinda does that but Version 2 is so much better in that way.

Just a theory and not saying it wasnt still maybe a misguided working philosophy but its the only explanation i can come up with. The Tobelman site, while mostly fanciful nonsense, makes a good case for how important The Art of Creation was to Brian's MO

Sure but I mean the ABC format of the '93' version - or ABCD if you accept the bit Vosse was talking about.  Its just odd.

Are you referring to the arrangement of pieces as opposed to the arrangement of instruments? Like how the 93 boxset has the quiet verse, loud chorus, tag? (Does Vosse describe a fourth piece? I thought he was just describing the tag with vocals?)

[mike s]

It was mostly vox that needed doing.  Loads of tracking had been done - pretty much all of it really.  I think it fell over when Brian started second guessing himself - I mean why rework a nicely arranged track like WC..?  It was fine as it was - and notice he went back to it in '04 and not the 93 box set effort.

My theory is he was really into "bisociative" and pictorial composition where each prominent instrument in the major songs was meant to evoke a specific object or place, with the overall arrangement creating an image in the listeners mind. So its not enough that a song like WC sounds good as it was in Pet Sounds, it needs to sound like actual WC. Version 1 kinda does that but Version 2 is so much better in that way.

Just a theory and not saying it wasnt still maybe a misguided working philosophy but its the only explanation i can come up with. The Tobelman site, while mostly fanciful nonsense, makes a good case for how important The Art of Creation was to Brian's MO

Sure but I mean the ABC format of the '93' version - or ABCD if you accept the bit Vosse was talking about.  Its just odd.

Are you referring to the arrangement of pieces as opposed to the arrangement of instruments? Like how the 93 boxset has the quiet verse, loud chorus, tag? (Does Vosse describe a fourth piece? I thought he was just describing the tag with vocals?)

Yes I mean the ordering of the sections - '93' is ABC.

There is a boot of WC with a section between B and C.  Its a lot of false starts of the chorus vox along with a count in.  Some listeners think this is part of the section Vosse was talking about.

[Julia]

It was mostly vox that needed doing.  Loads of tracking had been done - pretty much all of it really.  I think it fell over when Brian started second guessing himself - I mean why rework a nicely arranged track like WC..?  It was fine as it was - and notice he went back to it in '04 and not the 93 box set effort.

My theory is he was really into "bisociative" and pictorial composition where each prominent instrument in the major songs was meant to evoke a specific object or place, with the overall arrangement creating an image in the listeners mind. So its not enough that a song like WC sounds good as it was in Pet Sounds, it needs to sound like actual WC. Version 1 kinda does that but Version 2 is so much better in that way.

Just a theory and not saying it wasnt still maybe a misguided working philosophy but its the only explanation i can come up with. The Tobelman site, while mostly fanciful nonsense, makes a good case for how important The Art of Creation was to Brian's MO

Sure but I mean the ABC format of the '93' version - or ABCD if you accept the bit Vosse was talking about.  Its just odd.

Are you referring to the arrangement of pieces as opposed to the arrangement of instruments? Like how the 93 boxset has the quiet verse, loud chorus, tag? (Does Vosse describe a fourth piece? I thought he was just describing the tag with vocals?)

Yes I mean the ordering of the sections - '93' is ABC.

There is a boot of WC with a section between B and C.  Its a lot of false starts of the chorus vox along with a count in.  Some listeners think this is part of the section Vosse was talking about.

Do you know which one? I have a modest collection of boots and fanmixes (I dont go out of my way to track down every one, but anytime I come across a link to something not in my stash I download if the link isn't dead) and I dont know what you're referring to. I did hear talking spliced over the tag on "smile (dj mic luv version) [192]" in my collection