SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss

[Julia]

Also genuine question but what books are there that are considered trustworthy?

Hi Julia. Well, seeing that no one else has answered yet, the books I myself trust implicitly are Peter Ames Carlin's Catch a Wave, Jim Murphy's Becoming the Beach Boys, 1961–1963, Ian Rusten and Jon Stebbins' The Beach Boys in Concert and AGD’s Complete Guide. Add two websites -- AGD's Bellagio 10452 and Ian's BeachBoysGigs, both unmissable -- and Jon's books on David and Dennis and you're definitely among writers you can trust.

The forthcoming definitive sessionography project will fall into this category too. Like those named above, none of its authors is given to speculation or flights of fancy.

Thanks John! I own and have read Carlin, along with AGD's great documentation on the group's sessionography. Right now Im trying to hunt down every book's account on the SMiLE sessions in preparation for David Leaf's new book. Then I can die knowing Ive read all there is to read about this topic and what's unknown is truly unknown not sitting on a shelf outside my reach.

[Zenobi]

It seems Brian "weirded out" VDP with Fire. An instrumental heavy metal piece when heavy metal did not yet exist.
But then, much of Brian's story is weirding out people, be Mike, Carl, VDP, or Iggy Pop.
Maybe not Dennis, Andy Paley and Darian.
And I see he keeps weirding out most of his fandom.

[Julia]

It seems Brian "weirded out" VDP with Fire. An instrumental heavy metal piece when heavy metal did not yet exist.
But then, much of Brian's story is weirding out people, be Mike, Carl, VDP, or Iggy Pop.
Maybe not Dennis, Andy Paley and Darian.
And I see he keeps weirding out most of his fandom.

Brian led a very weird, fascinating life. I honestly wonder if he couldn't break into music how on Earth someone as sensitive, shy, naive and dysfunctional as him would've made it in the world. I also wonder how someone like him played football; he doesn't have the stereotypical personality. Also, knowing what we now know about concussive brain trauma, was he perhaps suffering from a form of that his entire life that went unspoken? Should we be blaming youth contact sports at least as much as the big bad boogeyman LSD?

(I cant help but be obsessively curious as a fan, not my business I know)

[Angela Jones]

Regarding Nick Kent, not sure his account of events can be trusted. One of those he mentioned told me personally that her only experience of Kent was stepping over him when he was llying on the floor!

Fair but at least with regard to his Brian chapter, I didnt really see any original research or new anecdotes. He just kinda reiterates the SMiLE legend highlights from the primary sources. I think hes guilty of just repeating what we already know than making up wild claims.

Also genuine question but what books are there that are considered trustworthy?

I think the best thing is to read as widely as possible but the ones I'd particularly trust are the books by David Leaf and also 'Catch a Wave: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of the Beach Boys' Brian Wilson by Peter Ames Carlin. And of course for details of the music, Inside the Music of Brian Wilson by Philip Lambert. But some of the fiction is worth a read too - particularly Paul Quarrington's Whale Music, which is so insightful.

[Zenobi]

Interesting new take, Julia. You might easily be right!
In fact, the dangers (and damages) inherent in contact sports are GREATLY underrated. And for horrible reasons. People want blood, even young blood, and other people want easy money.

[rab2591]

It seems Brian "weirded out" VDP with Fire. An instrumental heavy metal piece when heavy metal did not yet exist.
But then, much of Brian's story is weirding out people, be Mike, Carl, VDP, or Iggy Pop.
Maybe not Dennis, Andy Paley and Darian.
And I see he keeps weirding out most of his fandom.

I don't think the music itself "weirded out" VDPs (listen to any number of tracks on Song Cycle, specifically the middle of 'Public Domain', intro to 'The All Golden' - you could pick out most tracks from that album and find elements of Smile's weirdness in them - recorded/released by Parks in '67).

If Parks really was slighted about his lyrical talents not being included on Fire, such a viewpoint doesn't make much sense to me: Even a cursory glance at Brian's discography shows that Brian was a fan of instrumentals on his albums; when working with Tony Asher (who helped write some of the greatest lyrics in pop music history) Brian still put two instrumentals on Pet Sounds. So if Parks really did have a gripe about his lyrical talents being ignored for one song, I feel like it wasn't a good argument.

But I imagine that it was a combination of factors, but especially watching your collaborator go exponentially manic would be frightening. Like, we hear about the stories of the trash bin, and Brian's paranoia following the session, but I wonder what his every-day mannerisms were like then (if he was openly paranoid about a warehouse fire, it makes me wonder how he would act in everyday conversation during those moments of extreme paranoia). I imagine at that point it was like understanding that the Titanic could and would sink, and it was only a matter of time.

[rab2591]

It seems Brian "weirded out" VDP with Fire. An instrumental heavy metal piece when heavy metal did not yet exist.
But then, much of Brian's story is weirding out people, be Mike, Carl, VDP, or Iggy Pop.
Maybe not Dennis, Andy Paley and Darian.
And I see he keeps weirding out most of his fandom.

Brian led a very weird, fascinating life. I honestly wonder if he couldn't break into music how on Earth someone as sensitive, shy, naive and dysfunctional as him would've made it in the world. I also wonder how someone like him played football; he doesn't have the stereotypical personality. Also, knowing what we now know about concussive brain trauma, was he perhaps suffering from a form of that his entire life that went unspoken? Should we be blaming youth contact sports at least as much as the big bad boogeyman LSD?

(I cant help but be obsessively curious as a fan, not my business I know)

I think his life was only weird because he broke into the music business. The drugs, the pressures of the music business as the leader of one of the most famous bands, and the family drama pushed Brian over the edge. If Brian had become an accountant at a mid-range California finance firm, I am sure he would've been hard-working and successful at his job (or any other 9-5 job). I have no doubt that Brian would've encountered mental illness at some point in his life, but I don't think it would have been as crippling as it was in his Beach Boys heyday (given he had unlimited access to any type of drug, any time he wanted them as a Beach Boy).

"I honestly wonder if he couldn't break into music how on Earth someone as sensitive, shy, naive and dysfunctional as him would've made it in the world"

I mean, I think this completely ignores just how much of a smart and hard-working guy Brian actually was. I think the only thing that set him way back in terms of functionality was his excessive drug use...and I know that's probably not a popular take amongst people who think LSD and shrooms can create a utopian peace on this earth, but really, no one can deny the correlation between his LSD/pot/etc use and his simultaneous exponential manic/reclusive behavior (on a side note, I'm not against the idea that a traumatic brain injury could have exposed some underlying mental issues in Brian, but I would not at all attribute his explosively-increasing manic behavior during the Smile era to one potential concussion he got 10 years prior - I would instead attribute those mental issues directly to the daily use of pot, amphetamines, and yes LSD (which can be traumatic to someone with a fragile psychological makeup)).

Also, Brian was a guy who wasn't afraid to control a room full of seasoned musicians - like, at such a young age he was cool and in-control - which is not someone I would label as dysfunctional or shy (to the point of being professionally debilitating - especially if he were in a regular 9-5 job). Yes, some of his classmates called him shy, but not every quarterback is a loud/obnoxious/steroid taking dude. Some athletes are incredibly talented in music, are introverted, and can still play their heart out on the field.

As for naivety, Brian was an above-average student (to my knowledge), and made very good decisions that led him and his band to becoming one of the most popular bands in history. He was open to criticism, he was open to new ideas which is partly why he became so successful - these aren't traits of someone who is naive (especially prior to the excessive drug use).

[Zenobi]

I was talking only of the "heavy metal" aspect of Fire. Of course VDP was extremely eccentric and experimental in Song Cycle. But not heavy metal. I have a difficult in picturing VDP dismissing a piece simply because it had no lyrics. That would be rather petty. More likely he simply did not like the piece, whatever he said.

[guitarfool2002]

Two important points worth noting that are being missed or not mentioned.

One, where was Van Dyke in a professional sense when he started working with Brian on Smile? Van himself tells the story of driving to Brian's house alone that first meeting on a motorbike, and getting pulled over by the police who would patrol the more "exclusive" neighborhood where Brian lived. The officer escorted Van Dyke to Brian's house to check on his story, and that he belonged there, and had it not been for Brian being who he was, and having a further connection (somehow!) with the officer's family and The Beach Boys, Van Dyke would have been in a real jam. Contrast that status at the time with Brian's, who was without exaggeration a pop star with a plethora of gold records on his wall and disposable income to do or buy whatever he wanted, having worked hard to chart and sell that many hit records and attain such a status by age 24.

The point is it was a collaboration, with all the usual situations involved in two creatives working that closely together to create a work, but one of those two clearly held the stronger hand in the partnership, and had the ultimate veto power too. So if Van Dyke possibly had reservations or even outright objections to some piece of music, it was Brian's project which Van Dyke was being paid to work on as work-for-hire, and it was Brian's name and past history that had the clout and the ears of the world.

Read the Vosse "Fusion" section where he mentions Brian and Van occasionally butting heads and having disagreements about this or that, and he also mentions the times when they were working together and it was a marvel to watch the creativity flow when the two were on a roll. It's the nature of any relationship, the ebbs and flows and pushes and pulls in order to reach a common goal. And having these two inspire each other, push each other to try new things, and also disagree is what happens often when two extremely talented and original thinkers join forces to create.

But in 1966 and early 1967, it was Brian's name that had the clout, not Van Dyke Parks, and consider that maybe - just maybe - Van Dyke needed to be reminded of that at the time. In later years, as I've cited before, Van Dyke never hesitated to credit Brian with giving him that golden ticket to enter a higher status within the music business when he was driving a motorbike in a wealthy LA neighborhood and getting pulled over by police because he didn't belong there. Brian's first order of business was to buy Van a new Volvo. Within months, Van Dyke had his own record label deal to make a solo album with nearly full control over the musical content (almost unheard of for a relative unknown in 1966-67) too.

Note as well the difference between working with the work-for-hire collaborators like Parks, Asher, Christian, Usher, etc had a far different dynamic than working with his family members within the band. That's subject for another topic all together.


Second point - Most people who have worked with Brian up to his final albums have said there is a vast difference between "everyday Brian" and "studio Brian", in focus, behavior, and interactions with others. "Studio Brian" was focused, demanding, very business-like, and able to create musical ideas literally on the spot which no one else would have thought to do. For proof, you'll have to rely on eyewitness accounts from those who were there for the more modern examples, short of any videos that exist from sessions since "studio chatter" and talkback recordings no longer are done as they were in the 60's. For audio proof, go back to any if not all sessions that are available officially and not from the 60's Capitol era (and even the Hite Morgan stuff I guess).

Is there any audio from those 60's sessions where Brian sounds anything less than the guy in control and running the proceedings with confidence? Working with the finest available musicians in LA, there was young Brian Wilson directing them through take after take, eventually getting them to a result that even the seasoned pros like Kessel and Kaye and Tedesco would occasionally snicker at or say it wouldn't work during the process, only to hear the results when it all came together and understand where this kid was coming from and how unique and advanced his ideas on harmony and arrangement could be. 

The audio from those 60's sessions, yes even the infamous Help Me Rhonda tape with a drunk Murry barking at him over the talkback, show a young guy full of ideas, confidence, and the ability to get things done in often stressful situations.

I'd ask how many of you out there have been faced with a situation like that, where you have a roomful of top-notch musicians, cynical ones at that, waiting for direction on what to play and how to play it from *you* on the floor or in a control booth over a talkback mic. It's a daunting situation that needs someone able to rise to the occasion and make often magic things happen in a studio.

Brian, or I'll say "studio Brian", rose to the occasion enough times that we can now hear and study his body of work, created in those studios under those situations.

If there is any doubt about his abilities, mentally or whatever, it didn't go into the studio and affect his ability to make classic and timeless records.

But again that's the point to consider looking at "studio Brian" versus "everyday Brian".

And I'll end that point with an anecdote about my time living in Boston, and spending time on Harvard's campus area and around MIT. Around those areas you'll find a concentration of some brilliant individuals and thinkers, in many fields. But I'll just say it wasn't uncommon to see professors and visiting artists-in-residence riding old beat up bicycles, wearing ratty clothes and blazers with holes in them, mismatched socks and clothing, and generally looking unkempt, while having a mindful of thoughts and theories that the average person could not begin to comprehend. So their "daily life" was lacking in some areas of human behavior and interaction, but their professional lives were running on levels many stages beyond the average human's thoughts and knowledge. As soon as they were in their wheelhouse, in their comfort zone, they were untouchable. But outside of that realm, where they owned the rooms or labs or whatever, society would consider them lacking some of the basic human traits that are considered "normal".

Food for thought.

[rab2591]

I was talking only of the "heavy metal" aspect of Fire. Of course VDP was extremely eccentric and experimental in Song Cycle. But not heavy metal. I have a difficult in picturing VDP dismissing a piece simply because it had no lyrics. That would be rather petty. More likely he simply did not like the piece, whatever he said.

I do see what you're saying, I just find it hard to see Parks being offended by the music itself considering what he did on 'Song Cycle'. To make a more direct comparison, the tone of the middle of 'Van Dyke Parks' (the 'Nearer My God To Thee' segment with the Titanic sinking) sounds SO much like 'Fire' - the booming explosions are reminiscent of the drums in 'Fire', and the ship's horn sounds so much like the fuzz bass on 'Fire' (specifically that 'heavy metal' sound). I'm not at all saying they are identical, but the tone, to me, is strikingly similar...as in, if I were to fade 'Fire' into the middle segment of 'VDP's I think it would be a near-perfect fit. Then again, that could be a tongue-in-cheek commentary on the entire Smile debacle haha.

But, VDPs played on 'Cabin Essence' and I don't think he has ever shown a dislike to the sound of that song - a song that I'd say has just as equal a 'heavy metal' sound, specifically the chorus instruments & the fuzz bass on the outro. Idk, he could very well have disliked that sound, but I just find it hard to believe considering the 'weirdness' he put into his own album just months later.

[MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm]

Second point - Most people who have worked with Brian up to his final albums have said there is a vast difference between "everyday Brian" and "studio Brian", in focus, behavior, and interactions with others. "Studio Brian" was focused, demanding, very business-like, and able to create musical ideas literally on the spot which no one else would have thought to do. For proof, you'll have to rely on eyewitness accounts from those who were there for the more modern examples, short of any videos that exist from sessions since "studio chatter" and talkback recordings no longer are done as they were in the 60's. For audio proof, go back to any if not all sessions that are available officially and not from the 60's Capitol era (and even the Hite Morgan stuff I guess).

Is there any audio from those 60's sessions where Brian sounds anything less than the guy in control and running the proceedings with confidence? Working with the finest available musicians in LA, there was young Brian Wilson directing them through take after take, eventually getting them to a result that even the seasoned pros like Kessel and Kaye and Tedesco would occasionally snicker at or say it wouldn't work during the process, only to hear the results when it all came together and understand where this kid was coming from and how unique and advanced his ideas on harmony and arrangement could be. 

The audio from those 60's sessions, yes even the infamous Help Me Rhonda tape with a drunk Murry barking at him over the talkback, show a young guy full of ideas, confidence, and the ability to get things done in often stressful situations.

I'd ask how many of you out there have been faced with a situation like that, where you have a roomful of top-notch musicians, cynical ones at that, waiting for direction on what to play and how to play it from *you* on the floor or in a control booth over a talkback mic. It's a daunting situation that needs someone able to rise to the occasion and make often magic things happen in a studio.

Brian, or I'll say "studio Brian", rose to the occasion enough times that we can now hear and study his body of work, created in those studios under those situations.

If there is any doubt about his abilities, mentally or whatever, it didn't go into the studio and affect his ability to make classic and timeless records.

But again that's the point to consider looking at "studio Brian" versus "everyday Brian".

And I'll end that point with an anecdote about my time living in Boston, and spending time on Harvard's campus area and around MIT. Around those areas you'll find a concentration of some brilliant individuals and thinkers, in many fields. But I'll just say it wasn't uncommon to see professors and visiting artists-in-residence riding old beat up bicycles, wearing ratty clothes and blazers with holes in them, mismatched socks and clothing, and generally looking unkempt, while having a mindful of thoughts and theories that the average person could not begin to comprehend. So their "daily life" was lacking in some areas of human behavior and interaction, but their professional lives were running on levels many stages beyond the average human's thoughts and knowledge. As soon as they were in their wheelhouse, in their comfort zone, they were untouchable. But outside of that realm, where they owned the rooms or labs or whatever, society would consider them lacking some of the basic human traits that are considered "normal".

Food for thought.

All this is fascinating and just wanted to single it out. Really nice writing.

The painful part is that it seems like in 1967, Brian had a real crisis of confidence (for myriad overlapping reasons) and that in-charge version of him began to recede.

We know that Brian was involved in (say) the various 1967-1970 albums even if he was no longer the most public persona of the band. Are there stories of 1967-1970 Brian commanding a room (or more specifically, a Beach Boys recording session) quite like this?

[Zenobi]

I was talking only of the "heavy metal" aspect of Fire. Of course VDP was extremely eccentric and experimental in Song Cycle. But not heavy metal. I have a difficult in picturing VDP dismissing a piece simply because it had no lyrics. That would be rather petty. More likely he simply did not like the piece, whatever he said.

I do see what you're saying, I just find it hard to see Parks being offended by the music itself considering what he did on 'Song Cycle'. To make a more direct comparison, the tone of the middle of 'Van Dyke Parks' (the 'Nearer My God To Thee' segment with the Titanic sinking) sounds SO much like 'Fire' - the booming explosions are reminiscent of the drums in 'Fire', and the ship's horn sounds so much like the fuzz bass on 'Fire' (specifically that 'heavy metal' sound). I'm not at all saying they are identical, but the tone, to me, is strikingly similar...as in, if I were to fade 'Fire' into the middle segment of 'VDP's I think it would be a near-perfect fit. Then again, that could be a tongue-in-cheek commentary on the entire Smile debacle haha.

But, VDPs played on 'Cabin Essence' and I don't think he has ever shown a dislike to the sound of that song - a song that I'd say has just as equal a 'heavy metal' sound, specifically the chorus instruments & the fuzz bass on the outro. Idk, he could very well have disliked that sound, but I just find it hard to believe considering the 'weirdness' he put into his own album just months later.

Probably you are right... though VDP "quoting" Fire in Song Cycle as a symbol of disaster would NOT be beyond VDP. He can have a very barbed sense of humour, even musically!

P.S.
In case it's not clear enough, I love VDP!

[Zenobi]

And I love VDP since my father bought "Smiley Smile" in 1967. I was just a kid, but spent many nights listening to that magic music on headphomes and dreaming about what could be happening in and around that little house on the cover. What were those oh so menacing Wind Chimes after? Somebody's soul? (Maybe you get why I don't care much for how many copies records sell.)
And that extremely mysterious ("wraithlike" as he has been called) Van Dyke Parks just added to that spell. Somehow, I knew that an important part  of that magic had come from him.

[Julia]

GF and rab, you guys are probably right. Im too enraptured in the SMiLE era and its fallout. I forgot Brian used to be different. I'll concede that point.

I love VDP too, for the most part. Seems like a really cool, down to Earth guy who doesn't forget a kindness and is willing to forgive. I think it's nice how he went to bat for the group with WB and kept in touch with Brian in particular. Song Cycle is a mixed bag for me, I wasn't a fan of Discover America or Orange Crate Art, but I really liked Tokyo Rose too. He has a unique artistic voice and I think he and Brian balanced each other out really well. I maintain in another lifetime they would've been America's Lennon-McCartney going into the Psychedelic & Progressive Eras, bringing us several great concept albums including an LP-length Mt Vernon style fairytale.

[doinnothin]

Has Van Dyke Parks ever commented on how he felt about the Smile songs that came out in different forms than he had last heard them via Smiley Smile (or 20/20 and Surf's Up fro that matter)?

[Julia]

[delete]

[Dan Lega]

David's SMiLE book does a big curlicue around "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and VDP's assessment of how the project took a sudden, strange dark turn with it--starting on p. 64 and continuing into the subsequent chapter entitled "Don't F*** with the Formula."

It seems that VDP felt somewhat ambushed by that session; apparently he was not informed about it beforehand. I'm paraphrasing here, but it seems that Brian took whatever conception of "the Elements" that had been discussed or "pre-prepared" and went to a place with "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" that no one could have possibly anticipated. It sprang into existence outside the context of what he and VDP had been envisioning, and the nature of the music seemed to obviate the need for lyrics. That seems to have shaken up VDP and seems to have made it even harder for him to defend his lyrics to Mike Love (and possibly some others) when that collision occurred a few weeks later.

(Remember, the "Fire" session was late November '66, and the altercation about lyrics was early-mid December when "Cabinessence" was revisited.)

It's clear that there was some interaction between Brian and VDP about an "Elements" suite but it appears that Brian abruptly and unexpectedly took the idea into unknown territory, which threw several wrenches into the process. VDP suggests that the subsequent tinkering Brian undertook in early '67 made it difficult to maintain a through-line for the project: it's possible that some of the arguments between them in VDP's several short-lived returns centered around that escalating problem.

David Leaf suggests that Brian might have been spooked by "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" because it encapsulated a growing set of anxieties that were at work within him. He may have been simultaneously enthralled and repulsed by what he created, which would have made him more vulnerable to superstition-oriented phenomena (the purported "rash of fires" that ensued after the session). All of that, however, just magnified the rifts that eventually caused the project to be aborted.

I don't think there's a definitive answer as to what "the Elements" would have been, which leaves the question of what "snapshot" of SMiLE seems to give it the best possible flow as a "symphony" or "oratory" (as some music scholars refer to it). What Brian and VDP (with help from Darian) devised/revised in 2003 is their take--and deserves its place as the official version--but other scenarios and other sequences are clearly possible (and possibly preferable).

That's really interesting. I always thought VDP was sincere and defending the music with the sometimes quotes "you can throw the lyrics out if you don't like them, the words aren't important" as if to say "what's important is the music, Im just trying to help set a scene with my words but ultimately the specifics don't matter." This now makes me wonder if he wasn't being passive aggressive, like "well, as Brian has shown, the lyrics don't even matter anyway." That's a real shame.

Everything lines up perfectly for once though, for this new emergent narrative to make sense. Psychedelic Sounds Nov 4, where the element sections have lyrics albeit not particularly great ones. (And now this opens a new hole, where Id always assumed there was no fire-related chants because Fire was already a blueprint in their mind, if "Cow" was a surprise, why not working fire concept tonight?) Then Fire is recorded on 11/28 and the CE altercation about a week later, 12/6 (feel free to double check me). Now the call from Brian, another surprise, to defend the lyrics is feeling like a pattern of behavior of being sidelined, surprised and belittled from Van's perspective.

I will never believe your latter thought, that Van Dyke was saying his lyrics don't matter because the music was all Brian was interested in now.  I also don't believe the other boards thought that Van Dyke really didn't think much of his lyrics.  I believe he thought his lyrics were great... AND... that Brian thought his lyrics were great, too.  But when you get pushed with your back up against the wall, and you're fighting a "family business" and you're not part of that family, I believe Van Dyke maybe thought he should just bow out gracefully.  If the Boys didn't understand the lyrics, and apparently Brian didn't have the strength to defend the lyrics, either, then Van Dyke bows and makes his leave.  Remember, in David Leaf's new book Van Dyke also says that he felt physically threatened during the SMiLE sessions.  I just think the whole SMiLE dream falls apart once Brian starts getting push back from the Boys and the record company.  He just didn't have the strength to fight them again... or anymore.  And as David Leaf points out in his first book, Brian needs encouragement.  If you don't like what he's doing, he'll second guess himself.  In the beginning, with the Posse, he was getting nothing but encouragement.  Things were going great.  Then the Boys come home.  Perhaps Brian hears from his record company, too.  David Leaf says that Mike Love hated SMiLE.  In those moments SMiLE is almost all but lost.  Brian bides his time, but can't get anyone to change their mind and he eventually locks it away as his own little precious jewel, that he finally let the world see in all its glory in 2004!

And why do you keep saying you can't buy David Leaf's book?  It's been on sale for months.  I just found it on sale at Amazon for about $32.00.  Here's the link...

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=David+leaf+book&crid=3KXNJUPFGY6XB&sprefix=david+leaf+book%2Caps%2C130&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

You can buy David Leaf's first book there, too.  The newer version with the 1985 and 2022 updates tacked on at the end of the book.

[Dan Lega]

Has Van Dyke Parks ever commented on how he felt about the Smile songs that came out in different forms than he had last heard them via Smiley Smile (or 20/20 and Surf's Up fro that matter)?

There is a quote in David Leaf's new book where he quotes Van Dyke's reaction to hearing Heroes & Villains on the radio for the first time and Van Dyke thinks, that's not how I expected it to sound!  Unfortunately David doesn't give us a follow up question of, "well, what did you expect it to sound like?"

[Dan Lega]

MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm said...

>>> We know that Brian was involved in (say) the various 1967-1970 albums even if he was no longer the most public persona of the band. Are there stories of 1967-1970 Brian commanding a room (or more specifically, a Beach Boys recording session) quite like this? <<<


Just listen to the backing tracks of the Friends songs.  I imagine most of them were done with outside musicians.  They have the same master's touch as the earlier recordings in my opinion.

[Dan Lega]

I was talking only of the "heavy metal" aspect of Fire. Of course VDP was extremely eccentric and experimental in Song Cycle. But not heavy metal. I have a difficult in picturing VDP dismissing a piece simply because it had no lyrics. That would be rather petty. More likely he simply did not like the piece, whatever he said.

I do see what you're saying, I just find it hard to see Parks being offended by the music itself considering what he did on 'Song Cycle'. To make a more direct comparison, the tone of the middle of 'Van Dyke Parks' (the 'Nearer My God To Thee' segment with the Titanic sinking) sounds SO much like 'Fire' - the booming explosions are reminiscent of the drums in 'Fire', and the ship's horn sounds so much like the fuzz bass on 'Fire' (specifically that 'heavy metal' sound). I'm not at all saying they are identical, but the tone, to me, is strikingly similar...as in, if I were to fade 'Fire' into the middle segment of 'VDP's I think it would be a near-perfect fit. Then again, that could be a tongue-in-cheek commentary on the entire Smile debacle haha.

But, VDPs played on 'Cabin Essence' and I don't think he has ever shown a dislike to the sound of that song - a song that I'd say has just as equal a 'heavy metal' sound, specifically the chorus instruments & the fuzz bass on the outro. Idk, he could very well have disliked that sound, but I just find it hard to believe considering the 'weirdness' he put into his own album just months later.

Yes, Van Dyke's quote about not liking Fire because there was no room for vocals makes no sense to me, either.  It seems VERY out of character.  It's a true conundrum.  Maybe Van Dyke will expound upon it in his autobiography?  We can only hope!

[Dan Lega]

I just finished reading David Leaf's original 1978 version of his "MYTH" book, and just wanted to point out the he has people saying in the mid-70's that if they were with Brian, just hanging, like old friends, that they thought Brian didn't seem any different than he did 5 or 10 years earlier.

Also, I watched an interview of Brian from an interview with someone European.  (Dutch?  Swedish?)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwmmj7WEHXI

The most heartbreaking part of this interview is Brian constantly calling the voices he hears in his head as the devil talking to him. 

The brain is really amazing.  How it can do this is so strange.  (The brain does lots of other weird things, too.  My Mom heard phantom sounds in her heard, like water running, and loud sounds, etc., after a nasty bout with a drug that did way more bad than the good it was supposed to do.)

[Julia]

I will never believe your latter thought, that Van Dyke was saying his lyrics don't matter because the music was all Brian was interested in now.  

That's certainly fair enough. Care to say why, in the interest of conversation?

I also don't believe the other boards thought that Van Dyke really didn't think much of his lyrics.

Well...they did. At least a fair amount of posts I saw at the time. Im not gonna debate something I experienced 10-odd years ago and Im banned from the promised land by God-Emperor Mikie, so I couldn't fish for examples to back up my perception of the consensus from 2015-2018 even if I wanted to. I dont much appreciate being called a liar though; if you didn't see the same posts I did or felt the opinion was more of a minority than I perceived at the time, all I can say is we interpreted things differently. Im certainly not "appealing to authority/the masses" here by trying to say "well a bunch of other people didn't like the lyrics therefore somehow it means Brian didn't either" if that's what you took away from my statement. I was saying I stand by VDP's work against the naysayers and like his lyrics a lot.    

I believe he thought his lyrics were great... AND... that Brian thought his lyrics were great, too.  But when you get pushed with your back up against the wall, and you're fighting a "family business" and you're not part of that family, I believe Van Dyke maybe thought he should just bow out gracefully.

I personally agree the lyrics are great. I think Brian thought the lyrics were great too in the sense that they fit the music...but it's at least fairly well-documented he began to doubt the project, and thus the music and/or lyrics at some point. If he didn't it would've been completed, since the only thing standing in the way, ultimately, was Brian's internal hangups/decision.

If we disagree we disagree, but ultimately I stand by my opinion Brian had doubts at some point and feel it's at least plausible VDP might've been being passive aggressive with his words in the CE session. We can't say for sure but it's a possibility that MIGHT be worth considering.

If the Boys didn't understand the lyrics, and apparently Brian didn't have the strength to defend the lyrics, either, then Van Dyke bows and makes his leave. Remember, in David Leaf's new book Van Dyke also says that he felt physically threatened during the SMiLE sessions. I just think the whole SMiLE dream falls apart once Brian starts getting push back from the Boys and the record company.  He just didn't have the strength to fight them again... or anymore.  And as David Leaf points out in his first book, Brian needs encouragement.  If you don't like what he's doing, he'll second guess himself.  In the beginning, with the Posse, he was getting nothing but encouragement.  Things were going great.  Then the Boys come home.  Perhaps Brian hears from his record company, too.  David Leaf says that Mike Love hated SMiLE.  In those moments SMiLE is almost all but lost.  Brian bides his time, but can't get anyone to change their mind and he eventually locks it away as his own little precious jewel, that he finally let the world see in all its glory in 2004!

Well, since I haven't had the opportunity to read it yet, I wasn't familiar with that quote. I don't doubt it though. Most of the sources make a point to call VDP "elfish" / "wiry" or other words to imply a diminutive physique. And Brian, Al, I believe Mike (?) all played football while Dennis was a tough kid. I don't doubt VDP would feel physically intimidated, nor do I believe Mike would have VDP summoned just to innocently, politely ask the meaning. I think his MO was to dress VDP down, show him he wasn't welcome and make a few disparaging remarks to turn the guys against him if they weren't already.

Yes, Brian was a very sensitive guy by all accounts. Ive read anecdotes of him second-guessing songs or reworking H&Vs on some rando's "meh" reaction. If anything, that makes it all the more likely he had doubts--whether they stemmed from an objective assessment of the project's quality or negative feedback from the others is irrelevant to the fact he had doubts at one point.

I thought things were going great too when I first got into SMiLE stuff, but there are primary sources like David Anderle saying that Brian and VDP had arguments outside the Beach Boys, that Brian would say "no" (to what isn't made clear) just to assert that he could and Van was put-off by that. Also Van "was tired of feeling dominated by Brian" which was a factor in his leaving. Not ONLY feeling put-off by Mike but also Brian. I think it's more than fair to say they weren't completely eye-to-eye simpatico and then Mike showed up and suddenly ruined a perfect working relationship. You can even hear the tension in the group on the Psychedelic Sounds tape recordings VDP participated to say nothing of the accounts he thought they were a silly waste of time. There's also the question of why certain songs either never had lyrics written in 6+ months or they were apparently not used OR the vocal sessions were wiped and the words forgotten over decades. (This doesn't necessarily prove dissatisfaction with what's written--maybe the singing was the problem, but it's a piece of evidence to consider in any case.)

While I do doubt their authenticity, it is fair to note that both the Gaines book and WIBN (which isn't reliable overall I know, but it echoes another source here so Im mentioning it anyway) say VDP felt "mortified" at Brian canceling a session last minute because of vibes. I doubt the testimony in its entirety due to the fact they say this happened at an otherwise uncited mid-Nov Fire session, but my interpretation of the Gaines book account is that his sin is frequently combining things that happened at separate dates into one, I guess for the sake of brevity. I can't prove it but my hypothesis is Gaines combined a separate incident of Brian canceling recording dates (which we know happened) with the already controversial Fire session. You're free to interpret it another way. Van was also reportedly disgusted by Brian's ostentatious displays of wealth and "juvenile" sandbox. Does this prove Brian didn't like lyrics too? Of course not. But, it possibly displays a pattern of behavior that suggests they weren't totally on the same level and things spiraled over the 6+ months they worked together. We don't know for sure, but you have to weigh the body of evidence to make a determination that's most plausible.

Also, in general, I feel like I might rub people the wrong way sometimes is in that I like to ask questions, make suppositions and throw plausible speculation out there in the interest of sparking a conversation. I feel I pick my words carefully enough when I do this, so it ought to be clear Im only theorizing and not stating my conjecture as fact. Also, wherever applicable, when I commentate on a source (like in my other thread) I try to provide a link or screencaps to its unedited form so people can read the original words and make up their own mind. Anyway, despite this, what I consider an even-handed approach in the interest of perpetuating a discussion of possibilities, sometimes I feel like people may interpret my words as definitive statements which isn't my intent. I just feel the need to throw that out there for the record in case it isn't clear. Im always wary of the  misunderstandings that can occur over a text-only format, and if things get heated at this point in my life I just walk away because it never ends well.     

And why do you keep saying you can't buy David Leaf's book?  It's been on sale for months.  I just found it on sale at Amazon for about $32.00.  Here's the link...

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=David+leaf+book&crid=3KXNJUPFGY6XB&sprefix=david+leaf+book%2Caps%2C130&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

You can buy David Leaf's first book there, too.  The newer version with the 1985 and 2022 updates tacked on at the end of the book.

Thanks! I don't know why, but every time I tried to find it these last two-odd weeks it kept directing me to sites that wanted to ship it from Europe and on Amazon specifically it said I could only preorder a copy, no immediate shipping. Now, I admit I sometimes use a VPN so perhaps I forgot to turn it off, but either way I checked multiple times and couldn't get anything but a preorder or expensive foreign shipping. I appreciate the link though, that one works.   I'll be sure to read it when Im done brushing up my knowledge of LLVS and Priore's 2005 book.

[Dan Lega]

Hey, we're all good here!  I think all your observations are well thought out.  I might not agree with everything you say, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Anyway... I will always believe Brian loved Van Dyke's lyrics wholeheartedly.  Why would he give him 50% of the songwriting credits if he didn't?  David Leaf says in his first book that Brian and Van Dyke stayed friends throughout the late 60's and early 70's.  Sounds like two guys who were in admiration of each other.  But, yes, later on during SMiLE Brian may have had doubts about the lyrics, but only in so far as he thought, hey, Mike Love and other naysayers might be right that these lyrics aren't relatable to the general public.  But I still believe Brian loved the lyrics as much as he loved the music he was creating.  He never gave up on the lyrics.  You could say he gave up on the project because he didn't want there to be any compromises to the lyrics (or music), and if Mike Love and the record company and others didn't think this batch of music was the right direction for the Beach Boys, then Brian thought, well, I just won't release it.  

When he finally did get back to SMiLE in 2003 and 2004 he didn't change any of the music and he didn't change any of the lyrics.  And he invited Van Dyke to come back and write new lyrics for it.  Then when he finally did the first live shows he was so ecstatic and felt such a weight off his shoulders.  Sounds to me like someone who truly believed in his and Van Dyke's ambition, and was finally, after 37 years, able to see how much people really enjoyed his teenage symphony to God!

Yeah, there are quotes about Brian "belittling" Van Dyke, but we don't know what that consisted of.  Maybe Van Dyke wanted to work, work, work, and Brian, like he did with Tony Asher, didn't start "working" until late afternoon or evening -- or night?  Maybe Brian started doing more off the wall things, like buying a telescope in the middle of the night.  Maybe Brian started cancelling sessions and wasting money.  Maybe Van Dyke didn't think it was professional to ask string players to wear fire helmets, and starting a small fire in a bucket in a studio may have also taken things too far for him.  I'm sure Van Dyke was utterly disappointed that Brian couldn't stand up to Mike Love and the record company and finish and put out a SMiLE.

Anyway, Julia, and everyone else, keep up the good work!  There have definitely been some interesting insights here.  And, Julia, I APPLAUD your desire to try and piece this whole mish-mash together!  I wish I still had that energy!

[Julia]

Hey, we're all good here!  I think all your observations are well thought out.  I might not agree with everything you say, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Anyway... I will always believe Brian loved Van Dyke's lyrics wholeheartedly.  Why would he give him 50% of the songwriting credits if he didn't?  David Leaf says in his first book that Brian and Van Dyke stayed friends throughout the late 60's and early 70's.  Sounds like two guys who were in admiration of each other.  But, yes, later on during SMiLE Brian may have had doubts about the lyrics, but only in so far as he thought, hey, Mike Love and other naysayers might be right that these lyrics aren't relatable to the general public.  But I still believe Brian loved the lyrics as much as he loved the music he was creating.  He never gave up on the lyrics.  You could say he gave up on the project because he didn't want there to be any compromises to the lyrics (or music), and if Mike Love and the record company and others didn't think this batch of music was the right direction for the Beach Boys, then Brian thought, well, I just won't release it.  

When he finally did get back to SMiLE in 2003 and 2004 he didn't change any of the music and he didn't change any of the lyrics.  And he invited Van Dyke to come back and write new lyrics for it.  Then when he finally did the first live shows he was so ecstatic and felt such a weight off his shoulders.  Sounds to me like someone who truly believed in his and Van Dyke's ambition, and was finally, after 37 years, able to see how much people really enjoyed his teenage symphony to God!

Yeah, there are quotes about Brian "belittling" Van Dyke, but we don't know what that consisted of.  Maybe Van Dyke wanted to work, work, work, and Brian, like he did with Tony Asher, didn't start "working" until late afternoon or evening -- or night?  Maybe Brian started doing more off the wall things, like buying a telescope in the middle of the night.  Maybe Brian started cancelling sessions and wasting money.  Maybe Van Dyke didn't think it was professional to ask string players to wear fire helmets, and starting a small fire in a bucket in a studio may have also taken things too far for him.  I'm sure Van Dyke was utterly disappointed that Brian couldn't stand up to Mike Love and the record company and finish and put out a SMiLE.

Anyway, Julia, and everyone else, keep up the good work!  There have definitely been some interesting insights here.  And, Julia, I APPLAUD your desire to try and piece this whole mish-mash together!  I wish I still had that energy!

Thanks and same to yourself!

[guitarfool2002]

 Maybe Van Dyke didn't think it was professional to ask string players to wear fire helmets

Van Dyke Parks wearing a firehat:


Brian and a mystery engineer or assistant engineer also wearing the hats. Can anyone identify the engineer with the white shirt, tie, and firehat behind Brian?

Hmmmm.....