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Author Topic: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss  (Read 20700 times)
WillJC
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« Reply #475 on: August 16, 2022, 12:11:51 AM »

Well, the two tapes are literally spliced together. Bicycle Rider was cut from the complete assembly of Worms (literally cut, with a razor), and pasted after the verse of Heroes and Villains, which came on the same tape reel.

When you say complete assembly of Worms, was this edited together as a potential finished backing track, or is it just the pieces lined up on one reel?

The backing track pieces for Worms were dubbed to a second generation 4-track and edited together at the initial session. Vocals were overdubbed onto the full edited composite track, much like Good Vibrations, which isn't the approach Brian took with most of the rest of the Smile material. It was later copied to 8-track for more work, and that's the tape where Bicycle Rider has been spliced out and edited onto the Heroes verses.

A mono reel from December 27 (which is missing from the box, but what was on it survives via acetates) contained the Cabin Essence chorus, two mixes of Bicycle Rider, and the Heroes opening verses. The contents are listed as:
1 - PORTION OF CABINESSENCE (WHO RAN THE IRON HORSE)
2 - PORTION OF HEROES AND VILLAINS (BICYCLE RIDERS) ['(INDIANS)' crossed out]
3 - same as 2
4 - PORTION OF HEROES AND VILLAINS - OPENING

Intentions with the CE chorus aren't completely clear, but Vosse did make a muddled comment about Brian wanting to put Bicycle Rider and Iron Horse together at some point. Likely the next day, Brian recorded "Heroes and Villains Part 3" (on the face of it would naturally follow "Part 2", aka Bicycle Rider) which is more or less a reworking of the Iron Horse music.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 12:31:04 AM by WillJC » Logged
mike s
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« Reply #476 on: August 16, 2022, 12:36:55 AM »

Oh thats very interesting - yes that confirms BR was part of H&V as early as December.  Also VDP told me years ago in an email that the BR lyrics were written for H&V not worms.

We've all heard the edit of the H&V verse straight into BR and it sounds odd - surely with any final mix there would have been a better transition..?

From what I've seen I'm not sure WRTIH was part of H&V - it sure fits though and would have made a great bridge.


Well, the two tapes are literally spliced together. Bicycle Rider was cut from the complete assembly of Worms (literally cut, with a razor), and pasted after the verse of Heroes and Villains, which came on the same tape reel.

When you say complete assembly of Worms, was this edited together as a potential finished backing track, or is it just the pieces lined up on one reel?

The backing track pieces for Worms were dubbed to a second generation 4-track and edited together at the initial session. Vocals were overdubbed onto the full edited composite track, much like Good Vibrations, which isn't the approach Brian took with most of the rest of the Smile material. It was later copied to 8-track for more work, and that's the tape where Bicycle Rider has been spliced out and edited onto the Heroes verses.

A mono reel from December 27 (which is missing from the box, but what was on it survives via acetates) contained the Cabin Essence chorus, two mixes of Bicycle Rider, and the Heroes opening verses. The contents are listed as:
1 - PORTION OF CABINESSENCE (WHO RAN THE IRON HORSE)
2 - PORTION OF HEROES AND VILLAINS (BICYCLE RIDERS) ['(INDIANS)' crossed out]
3 - same as 2
4 - PORTION OF HEROES AND VILLAINS - OPENING

Intentions with the CE chorus aren't completely clear, but Vosse did make a muddled comment about Brian wanting to put Bicycle Rider and Iron Horse together at some point. Likely the next day, Brian recorded "Heroes and Villains Part 3" (on the face of it would naturally follow "Part 2", aka Bicycle Rider) which is more or less a reworking of the Iron Horse music.
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mike s
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« Reply #477 on: August 16, 2022, 12:58:13 AM »

Lets muddy the water further - this DOESN'T describe the Cantina mix:

'Here's what's written on the tape box for the SAFETY copy of "heroes and Villains"
_______________________________

“heros & Villains” as of 2/10/67 master
1st verse
2nd verse
3rd verse (all edited together)

1 - bridge to 3rd verse
2 - bridge to fade
3 - cantina
4 - 2nd verse
5 - fade

(The above crossed out sort of...)

2:57 MASTER

PROT COPY '

Whats the '3rd verse'..?  Is it the 3 score and 5..?  Or maybe the a capella break..?

Whats 'bridge to 3rd verse'..?  Is it that 'Mission Pak' bit..?

Whats 'bridge to fade'..?  Is it the 11 note whistling with distortion..?

Whatever this mix was it wasn't the familiar 'Cantina' version.

Edit:  or possibly it IS the Cantina mix but the parts are just listed out of order..?  From other notes 'bridge to 3rd verse' seems to be 'my children'.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 01:07:18 AM by mike s » Logged
WillJC
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« Reply #478 on: August 16, 2022, 03:17:14 AM »


We've all heard the edit of the H&V verse straight into BR and it sounds odd - surely with any final mix there would have been a better transition..?


Brian presumably thought the same thing and that's why he recorded Bridge to Indians, then scrapped it as a section altogether in favour of Cantina.
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WillJC
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« Reply #479 on: August 16, 2022, 03:19:06 AM »


Whats the '3rd verse'..?  Is it the 3 score and 5..?  Or maybe the a capella break..?

Whats 'bridge to 3rd verse'..?  Is it that 'Mission Pak' bit..?

Whats 'bridge to fade'..?  Is it the 11 note whistling with distortion..?

Whatever this mix was it wasn't the familiar 'Cantina' version.

Edit:  or possibly it IS the Cantina mix but the parts are just listed out of order..?  From other notes 'bridge to 3rd verse' seems to be 'my children'.

Those notations are describing the February 10 'Cantina' mix. The numbered inventory items reflect the order the sections were mixed to mono, prior to editing.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 03:19:47 AM by WillJC » Logged
mike s
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« Reply #480 on: August 16, 2022, 03:22:32 AM »

Its still an odd transition though eh..?  Its the perpetual problem with the song:  genius sections but jarring transitions.

I think a smooth edit can be made with what we have if we use BR - definitely part of H&V at one point - and also possibly Iron Horse.  There's a train on the Holmes pic and also the 'chimes' part is a reworking of WRTIH so its not a total grab to include it in H&V.



We've all heard the edit of the H&V verse straight into BR and it sounds odd - surely with any final mix there would have been a better transition..?


Brian presumably thought the same thing and that's why he recorded Bridge to Indians, then scrapped it as a section altogether in favour of Cantina.
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mike s
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« Reply #481 on: August 16, 2022, 07:51:21 AM »

Ref 'The Elements':  there was at one point definitely a 4 part thing planned.  Brian changing 'Fire' to 'MOLC' on the way home from the session doesn't mean the Elements was scrapped - it was obviously a suite with sub-titled parts i.e. 'My Vega-tables The Elements'.  Just because 'Elements' was never called out again doesn't mean no tracks were meant to be elements.

'Workshop' was to follow the fire so it would be a reasonable guess that this was 'Earth'.  Just a guess - people working on the land.  Doesn't sound hugely 'earthy' but then what would..?  Actually I think Barnyard works really well as Earth but I don't think it was at all.

I think Woody Woodpecker was the 'candle' Brian talked about after scrapping 'Cow' - 'Fall breaks....' definitely describes the landscape huh..?  So a Fire tune becomes a pastoral.

I could also believe that some of those whooshing and wheezing sessions were air - I'd never argue it strongly but could there be a more literal audio representation of air..?
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starbond
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« Reply #482 on: September 02, 2022, 07:01:01 AM »

First I want to say what a fantastic thread. I learned a whole new slew of information regarding the timeframe and lineup of the some of the songs that I have been wondering about for a long time  Cool

Which got me thinking... has anyone ever made a visual timeline of the session history for Smile? A nice informative way to seeing what version of what songs were worked on when, and for how long, and when they just stopped completely. I make a very primitive mockup how it could look (apologies for wrong dating but you get the idea Smiley ) Something like August 1966 to June 1967 Across the top x axis, and the list of smile-related songs across the y axis, whether it's in appearance order, or track order, abc order, whatever. And then followed by colored bars going horizonally for start and stop dates (august to october, etc) . It could be separated into the different versions (Wonderful ver 1, Wonderful ver 2 Rock with me, Vegetables (demo), Da-Da Taped strings, and so on) And if you wanted to break it down even more, have actual days like Aug 12 - Sept 22.

Id be happy to assist or even set up the table is someone wanted to provide the information!



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BJL
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« Reply #483 on: September 02, 2022, 08:50:11 AM »

Well, the two tapes are literally spliced together. Bicycle Rider was cut from the complete assembly of Worms (literally cut, with a razor), and pasted after the verse of Heroes and Villains, which came on the same tape reel.

When you say complete assembly of Worms, was this edited together as a potential finished backing track, or is it just the pieces lined up on one reel?

The backing track pieces for Worms were dubbed to a second generation 4-track and edited together at the initial session. Vocals were overdubbed onto the full edited composite track, much like Good Vibrations, which isn't the approach Brian took with most of the rest of the Smile material. It was later copied to 8-track for more work, and that's the tape where Bicycle Rider has been spliced out and edited onto the Heroes verses.

A mono reel from December 27 (which is missing from the box, but what was on it survives via acetates) contained the Cabin Essence chorus, two mixes of Bicycle Rider, and the Heroes opening verses. The contents are listed as:
1 - PORTION OF CABINESSENCE (WHO RAN THE IRON HORSE)
2 - PORTION OF HEROES AND VILLAINS (BICYCLE RIDERS) ['(INDIANS)' crossed out]
3 - same as 2
4 - PORTION OF HEROES AND VILLAINS - OPENING

Intentions with the CE chorus aren't completely clear, but Vosse did make a muddled comment about Brian wanting to put Bicycle Rider and Iron Horse together at some point. Likely the next day, Brian recorded "Heroes and Villains Part 3" (on the face of it would naturally follow "Part 2", aka Bicycle Rider) which is more or less a reworking of the Iron Horse music.

Okay, follow up question (I meant to ask this at the time and never got around to it) - if I wanted to hear a reconstruction of that initial Worms track, ideally both with and without the vocals, as it stood before Brian spliced out Bicycle Rider, where would I look? Is such a thing on the Smile Sessions box?
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BJL
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« Reply #484 on: September 02, 2022, 08:51:49 AM »

Which got me thinking... has anyone ever made a visual timeline of the session history for Smile? A nice informative way to seeing what version of what songs were worked on when, and for how long, and when they just stopped completely. I make a very primitive mockup how it could look (apologies for wrong dating but you get the idea Smiley ) Something like August 1966 to June 1967 Across the top x axis, and the list of smile-related songs across the y axis, whether it's in appearance order, or track order, abc order, whatever. And then followed by colored bars going horizonally for start and stop dates (august to october, etc) . It could be separated into the different versions (Wonderful ver 1, Wonderful ver 2 Rock with me, Vegetables (demo), Da-Da Taped strings, and so on) And if you wanted to break it down even more, have actual days like Aug 12 - Sept 22.

Id be happy to assist or even set up the table is someone wanted to provide the information!

I would love to see something like this, and I imagine you could make a pretty effective start just using the information in the sessionography that came with the Smile box set....but it would be a whole pile of work for sure!
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starbond
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« Reply #485 on: September 02, 2022, 09:26:28 AM »

Which got me thinking... has anyone ever made a visual timeline of the session history for Smile? A nice informative way to seeing what version of what songs were worked on when, and for how long, and when they just stopped completely. I make a very primitive mockup how it could look (apologies for wrong dating but you get the idea Smiley ) Something like August 1966 to June 1967 Across the top x axis, and the list of smile-related songs across the y axis, whether it's in appearance order, or track order, abc order, whatever. And then followed by colored bars going horizonally for start and stop dates (august to october, etc) . It could be separated into the different versions (Wonderful ver 1, Wonderful ver 2 Rock with me, Vegetables (demo), Da-Da Taped strings, and so on) And if you wanted to break it down even more, have actual days like Aug 12 - Sept 22.

Id be happy to assist or even set up the table is someone wanted to provide the information!

I would love to see something like this, and I imagine you could make a pretty effective start just using the information in the sessionography that came with the Smile box set....but it would be a whole pile of work for sure!

Great idea, is the boxset information the same as what was listed here? https://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11250.0.html
That would be a good start, then I'd have to re-read through these 20 pages to find the newly revealed information about some of the session dates and assemblies. Could be a fun project indeed  Cool
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starbond
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« Reply #486 on: September 03, 2022, 08:09:12 AM »

Taking a first pass at the timeline, each month is split into its respective days which is where each session stripe lies. I started adding some info to the stripes as I go along, may or may not be helpful, except for cases where the song changed styles (wind chimes, wonderful, etc). All this info is based on the dated timeline link in my last post, and the next steps will be to read through these threads for more dates. I had some room at the bottom for now to include some tangetially related events like LP and 45 releases from the BB and Beatles. Also, this chart goes all they way to June 67, just couldn't get it all to fit without zooming out too far.
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MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm
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« Reply #487 on: September 03, 2022, 08:23:50 AM »

Cool! You can really see in visual form how Heroes and Villains 'consumed' (I still like that word) almost everything else.

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« Reply #488 on: September 03, 2022, 10:14:05 PM »

Neat! Add "Good Vibrations hits #1" to related events... And maybe when Van Dyke left, and when the Beach Boys toured... And distinguish between vocal and instrumental sessions, and...  Cool Guy

Also, this thread has been great, thanks for the interesting discussions. One thing I find interesting is revisiting old materials (like quotes/interviews) through the lens of new information. The interpretations of the past that were "common knowledge" may not be accurate after all.
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mike s
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« Reply #489 on: September 04, 2022, 03:27:34 AM »

Fantastic keep going Smiley

Not sure about Barnyard being December though - does that refer to the OMP fade..?

Taking a first pass at the timeline, each month is split into its respective days which is where each session stripe lies. I started adding some info to the stripes as I go along, may or may not be helpful, except for cases where the song changed styles (wind chimes, wonderful, etc). All this info is based on the dated timeline link in my last post, and the next steps will be to read through these threads for more dates. I had some room at the bottom for now to include some tangetially related events like LP and 45 releases from the BB and Beatles. Also, this chart goes all they way to June 67, just couldn't get it all to fit without zooming out too far.
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starbond
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« Reply #490 on: September 04, 2022, 07:19:55 AM »

Neat! Add "Good Vibrations hits #1" to related events... And maybe when Van Dyke left, and when the Beach Boys toured... And distinguish between vocal and instrumental sessions, and...  Cool Guy

I put some of those in now. If anyone has more accurate dates for the spring tour, I'll update. As well as any other good info to add to this (dates help!) I might spin this off into a new thread once its farther along for more exposure Cool Guy


Not sure about Barnyard being December though - does that refer to the OMP fade..?

All of the information so far (plus a few tidbits from this thread) are from the 2011 post here with the Smile Inventory I posted a little ways up, which says Barnyard had a vocal session on December 13. Of course there may have been corrected date information since then so I'm all ears  Cool
BARNYARD
12-13-66 - vocal session, Columbia

Master take (stereo) (1:01)
Mono mix, from acetate (mono) (1:02)
Mark Linett/Alan Boyd 2011 mix (mono) (0:48)


« Last Edit: September 04, 2022, 07:32:11 AM by starbond » Logged
mike s
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« Reply #491 on: September 04, 2022, 07:30:31 AM »

Oh yeah I'd forgotten about that.  I wonder if it was still in H&V by then or diverted out to IIGS or other..?  Is it logged as a H&V session..?



Not sure about Barnyard being December though - does that refer to the OMP fade..?


"All of the information so far (plus a few tidbits from this thread) are from the 2011 post here with the Smile Inventory I posted a little ways up, which says Barnyard had a vocal session on December 13. Of course there may have been corrected date information since then so I'm all ears  Cool
BARNYARD
12-13-66 - vocal session, Columbia

Master take (stereo) (1:01)
Mono mix, from acetate (mono) (1:02)
Mark Linett/Alan Boyd 2011 mix (mono) (0:48)
"

« Last Edit: September 04, 2022, 07:45:59 AM by mike s » Logged
starbond
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« Reply #492 on: September 04, 2022, 07:54:01 AM »

Oh yeah I'd forgotten about that.  I wonder if it was still in H&V by then or diverted out to IIGS or other..?  Is it logged as a H&V session..?


The inventory here doesnt list it as a H&V section however since i assume it came from the box set liner notes, and the Smile Sessions lists both Barnyard and IIGS with a Heroes and Villians prefix I'd say yes.
Looking at the timeline you see the first workings of H&V in october, followed close by the first workings for IIGS, then a week later Brian plays his piano demo where he plays H&V and IIGS very close together, takes a pause and says.. and then there's another section, before playing Barnyard. which isn't actually started until over a month later, but still before the "new 1967 H&V" which tentatively started a week after that with the "early chimes intro"  I wonder why Brian waited on barnyard so long, unless he was waiting for the other boys to get back to the studio since they were still gone during the other sessions?
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mike s
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« Reply #493 on: September 04, 2022, 10:53:21 AM »

I can't see the vox for BY listed on the box set notes as a separate session.  It must have been one though.  Its very interesting if it really was that late on - much later than I realised esp if still part of H&V.

Oh yeah I'd forgotten about that.  I wonder if it was still in H&V by then or diverted out to IIGS or other..?  Is it logged as a H&V session..?


The inventory here doesnt list it as a H&V section however since i assume it came from the box set liner notes, and the Smile Sessions lists both Barnyard and IIGS with a Heroes and Villians prefix I'd say yes.
Looking at the timeline you see the first workings of H&V in october, followed close by the first workings for IIGS, then a week later Brian plays his piano demo where he plays H&V and IIGS very close together, takes a pause and says.. and then there's another section, before playing Barnyard. which isn't actually started until over a month later, but still before the "new 1967 H&V" which tentatively started a week after that with the "early chimes intro"  I wonder why Brian waited on barnyard so long, unless he was waiting for the other boys to get back to the studio since they were still gone during the other sessions?
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Don Malcolm
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« Reply #494 on: September 04, 2022, 02:14:59 PM »

Very nice diagram! You might want to flesh it out a bit further by adding the sessions for the "SMiLE remakes"--"Wind Chimes" and "Wonderful," then extending into the "reworked" tracks such as "Fall Breaks" (with its connection to "Fire") and "She's Goin' Bald" (with its connection to "He Gives Speeches") in the June-July '67 time frame.

I'd also suggest using a different color for the day annotations for those June-July '67 sessions, to make it clear that we are now talking about SMILEY SMILE sessions, not SMiLE sessions. I know you were differentiating between '66 and '67 SMiLE session with the two colors, but I'd contend that a third color is needed to show all of the ways that the SMiLE material morphed into SMILEY SMILE.
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« Reply #495 on: September 04, 2022, 03:06:28 PM »

Very nice diagram! You might want to flesh it out a bit further by adding the sessions for the "SMiLE remakes"--"Wind Chimes" and "Wonderful," then extending into the "reworked" tracks such as "Fall Breaks" (with its connection to "Fire") and "She's Goin' Bald" (with its connection to "He Gives Speeches") in the June-July '67 time frame.

I'd also suggest using a different color for the day annotations for those June-July '67 sessions, to make it clear that we are now talking about SMILEY SMILE sessions, not SMiLE sessions. I know you were differentiating between '66 and '67 SMiLE session with the two colors, but I'd contend that a third color is needed to show all of the ways that the SMiLE material morphed into SMILEY SMILE.

Thanks Don, I wasn't planning on including the SS sessions, but since its only a month, why not. I made those sessions a new color, including the May Da-Da sessions. If you (or anyone) could link me to some SS recording dates I can get them put in on the chart.  Cool
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« Reply #496 on: September 04, 2022, 06:54:23 PM »

Very nice, thank you!

Other external factors would be Carl getting drafted, the Beach Boys suing Capitol, Brian seeing "Seconds"...
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« Reply #497 on: September 05, 2022, 09:07:54 AM »

Very nice, thank you!

Other external factors would be Carl getting drafted, the Beach Boys suing Capitol, Brian seeing "Seconds"...

According to IMDB, SECONDS was released on October 2, 1966, though some sources say October 5. The film did poorly at the box office (the figure most often cited was $1.75 million) so it's likely that Brian saw it sometime in October...possibly early November.

Very nice diagram! You might want to flesh it out a bit further by adding the sessions for the "SMiLE remakes"--"Wind Chimes" and "Wonderful," then extending into the "reworked" tracks such as "Fall Breaks" (with its connection to "Fire") and "She's Goin' Bald" (with its connection to "He Gives Speeches") in the June-July '67 time frame.

I'd also suggest using a different color for the day annotations for those June-July '67 sessions, to make it clear that we are now talking about SMILEY SMILE sessions, not SMiLE sessions. I know you were differentiating between '66 and '67 SMiLE session with the two colors, but I'd contend that a third color is needed to show all of the ways that the SMiLE material morphed into SMILEY SMILE.

Thanks Don, I wasn't planning on including the SS sessions, but since its only a month, why not. I made those sessions a new color, including the May Da-Da sessions. If you (or anyone) could link me to some SS recording dates I can get them put in on the chart. 


From Bellagio, it looks like the dates for the relevant tracks (those that link back to SMiLE) are:

6/29 Fall Breaks... 7/5 She's Goin' Bald 7/10-11 Wind Chimes 7/12 Wonderful

If you decide that you want to go further, all of the dates for the SMILEY sessions are on this page: http://www.bellagio10452.com/gigs67.html
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« Reply #498 on: September 05, 2022, 06:28:20 PM »

From Bellagio, it looks like the dates for the relevant tracks (those that link back to SMiLE) are:

6/29 Fall Breaks... 7/5 She's Goin' Bald 7/10-11 Wind Chimes 7/12 Wonderful

If you decide that you want to go further, all of the dates for the SMILEY sessions are on this page: http://www.bellagio10452.com/gigs67.html

Thanks Don, that's a fantastic site. Although one discrepancy I noticed, and this may explain mike's confusion earlier
It lists the Dec 19th Heroes and Villains vocal session as a lost tape. The timeline here listed that as a Barnyard session, which is what I original assumed to be the actual backing track/animal sounds day. But maybe not.
It then lists Oct 20 as the actual Barnyard date. So if thats true, then HV/IIGS/BY were all recorded by the time Brian made his demo piano recording.
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« Reply #499 on: September 06, 2022, 12:11:58 AM »

I think the Oct 20th BY date was for the track so yes definitely recorded before the demo.  The vocals recording date seems a bit muddled but almost surely Dec.


From Bellagio, it looks like the dates for the relevant tracks (those that link back to SMiLE) are:

6/29 Fall Breaks... 7/5 She's Goin' Bald 7/10-11 Wind Chimes 7/12 Wonderful

If you decide that you want to go further, all of the dates for the SMILEY sessions are on this page: http://www.bellagio10452.com/gigs67.html

Thanks Don, that's a fantastic site. Although one discrepancy I noticed, and this may explain mike's confusion earlier
It lists the Dec 19th Heroes and Villains vocal session as a lost tape. The timeline here listed that as a Barnyard session, which is what I original assumed to be the actual backing track/animal sounds day. But maybe not.
It then lists Oct 20 as the actual Barnyard date. So if thats true, then HV/IIGS/BY were all recorded by the time Brian made his demo piano recording.
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