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Author Topic: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss  (Read 26223 times)
Bicyclerider
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« Reply #450 on: July 30, 2022, 04:07:04 PM »

Here are two articles I referenced in the last post, for anyone interested in Brian and his studies of religion and spirituality in 1966:





Bill Tobelman's website does a great job trying to tie all of this together with published examples and background history, I highly recommend anyone interested check it out too. It's clearly something Brian was involved with and something that inspired the music too.



Jim McGuinn aka Roger was also involved with Subdud.
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Bicyclerider
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« Reply #451 on: July 30, 2022, 04:21:53 PM »

I dont believe there has been mention of two associations of Dada with Water.  The first one is in the Preiss book where Dada is associated with water but the track described is not Dada, I believe its the water chant which of course was not a Smile track but came later.  The second is in 1972 when Carl announced the imminent release of Smile and listed one of the tracks as I Love to Say Dada(incorporating Cool Cool Water).  This is well before any bootlegs used Dada as the Water element and probably was the reason the boots identified Dada with water.

Im not sure where the assertion that the water chant was to be used as the fade of the Wild Honey Cool Cool Water comes from.  Is that on a tape box or on a session slate?

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BJL
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« Reply #452 on: July 30, 2022, 07:49:45 PM »

Im not sure where the assertion that the water chant was to be used as the fade of the Wild Honey Cool Cool Water comes from.  Is that on a tape box or on a session slate?

The chant where they all sing "water, water" over a drone is not a recording that was made for a song called Love to Say Da Da. As we said earlier, it is labeled as "Cool Cool Water - Fade" on the tape box, and was recorded in Brian's home studio using his Baldwin organ during either the Smiley Smile era or the Wild Honey era. It is a section of Cool Cool Water that was recorded under that name.

Smiley
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♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #453 on: July 30, 2022, 09:27:38 PM »

Waitso all this time Dada supposedly being water stemmed from a misinterpretation from the Preiss book? Wow
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Galaxy Liz
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« Reply #454 on: July 31, 2022, 01:57:33 AM »

Im not sure where the assertion that the water chant was to be used as the fade of the Wild Honey Cool Cool Water comes from.  Is that on a tape box or on a session slate?

The chant where they all sing "water, water" over a drone is not a recording that was made for a song called Love to Say Da Da. As we said earlier, it is labeled as "Cool Cool Water - Fade" on the tape box, and was recorded in Brian's home studio using his Baldwin organ during either the Smiley Smile era or the Wild Honey era. It is a section of Cool Cool Water that was recorded under that name.

Smiley

Brian merged CCW with LTSDD, I believe in June 67 and worked on it later in October 67.  I don't really understand why you are all so blinkered about Brian's creative process.  LTSDD came from All Day which came from H&V.  Mama Says came from Vegetables which came from Vega-Tables.  The WW Symphony came from Fire.  The titles of the themes are just working titles which change and the themes are movable or it is possible to overlay them.  Being fixed about what they are may be relevant if you are talking about the finished piece, in which case LTSDD doesn't exist but In Blue Hawaii does.  It's possible Brian may have intended to use LTSDD on its own and then merge it with CCW given his ideas about birth and water.  It didn't happen, it wasn't finished, he may not remember now and the only version of Smile we have is BWPS.  LTSDD was a theme which only had a temporary existence before it became something else.

Ang and I were going to post something else on Vega-tables, given the interest in Smile, but as it's speculative ...
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sloopjohnb72
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« Reply #455 on: July 31, 2022, 05:48:32 AM »

Just a heads up - Love to Say Da Da was recorded under that title first, then as All Day a month or so later, then as Love to Say Da Da again a few months later. Cool Cool Water is musically the same song, although lyrically very different, with more directly water-themed lyrics. Once Brian was working on a song called Cool Cool Water, he was no longer working on a song called Love to Say Da Da - its a rewrite. For those who are only familiar with the Smile Sessions disc 1 mix of LTSDD, the water chant at the beginning is a CCW recording from after the Smile era, and the sped up Carl vocal is flown in from a Wild Honey era CCW recording. The merge between the two recordings happened in 2011, and the idea to do so came from Mark Linett.

CCW itself is a merging of LTSDD (the music) and some ideas Brian did have for the actual water element (the water keyboard idea, that went unused both times).
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terrei
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« Reply #456 on: July 31, 2022, 02:14:21 PM »

And speaking of zonked out on drugs - listen to them all giggling senselessly, high as kites on Little Pad - a track from Smiley Smile which they released...pot/kettle/black.  It was just gaslighting blaming him for the none release in that way.

You know, giggling on a song after smoking a joint is quite different from forcing everybody to hold business meetings inside a swimming pool and ranting about how the Jews have wiretapped your home after ingesting copious amounts of amphetamines and barbiturates. Have you never read the Gaines book?

This thread is wild. I can't believe that fans still split hairs over ILTSD and CCW.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2022, 02:17:20 PM by terrei » Logged
Zenobi
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« Reply #457 on: July 31, 2022, 04:14:16 PM »

 https://youtu.be/ThJcHjCI9j4

Return to Trollheim, troll. You are in the wrong forum.
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♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #458 on: July 31, 2022, 05:00:31 PM »

https://youtu.be/fBQggOdsmqw
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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #459 on: July 31, 2022, 05:17:37 PM »

Billy! Grin
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #460 on: July 31, 2022, 08:23:05 PM »

I don't think there's much mystery behind the use of Smile tracks on 20/20. And although Brian consented, he was reluctant about their inclusion and hands-off with it.

Not speculative, Dennis went on record saying that they had to go back and find things Brian had left behind because he'd stopped actively participating. The sessions for 20/20 began with a Brian-led run of sessions for almost an a full album of songs in the summer, but most of those weren't completed, and activity drifted for months between touring until the group were facing an imminent delivery deadline. In September a lengthy list of potential songs for the album was drawn up (probably by Carl and Dennis) with notes on their status - some recorded that needed work, some originals that hadn't yet been taken into the studio, some ideas for covers, and some older tracks from the vault - with almost all of Brian's tracks from the May-July '68 sessions given a look, along with Iron Horse, Surf's Up, and Cool Water.

It was probably easier, and more comfortable at this point, for the rest of the band to record newer material rather than finish off Brian's recent work on his behalf when he didn't want to go back to it, which is where I Can Hear Music, Bluebirds and most of the Dennis songs enter the picture. But the Smile tracks were a looming exception that they knew the value of and had wanted to finish, with Brian alluding to some group argument that year over his refusal to use the material while he was still taking a more active leadership role. Prayer was already effectively done and only sweetened while Cabin Essence was close enough that Carl could add the finishing touches without stepping on Brian's toes. Considering they were in the last week of a tight deadline and looking for some strong Brian contributions that could be completed without too much work, those were obvious candidates.

Other parts of Smile were still in the air in '68. David Anderle got wind that Child is Father of the Man would be on Brian's next album, which ended up happening via Little Bird. My Only Sunshine and the original version of Wonderful were reviewed with Stack-O-Tracks material in January. Workshop, Our Prayer and Cabin Essence were used on 20/20, while the original Wind Chimes was also given a safety copy and Surf's Up was evidently still hanging in the background.

All interesting, but it really doesn't explain how the tracks went from being set aside in summer '67 to moving slowly under the band's control, especially since the band was at least part of the reason why the original material was set aside. The question that still needs to be answered is what happened to change around the notion that Engemann documented about a "10-track SMiLE LP" and what happened to Brother Records (since it was supposed to be a label for band members to sign other artists and, theoretically at least, work on solo projects).

The impression one gets from your wording is that Carl and Dennis were doing some kind of back-door advocacy for those tracks during '68. Up to this point the BBs had only released two significantly different versions of a song on one occasion ("Help Me Rhonda"). Brian had re-appropriated a few melodies in other released recordings ("Thinking 'Bout You Baby" and "Darlin'", and "Car Crazy Cutie" and "Pamela Jean") but those were for "other artists." Of course, a "10-track SMiLE LP" along the lines of what Engemann thought he'd be getting would have to use some of those original SMiLE recordings that were reworked for SMILEY SMILE, so some redundancy would have occurred that way.

I'm afraid we still don't know what the actual dynamic was about this material as it moved from July '67 through to the decision in the fall of '68 to grab two of the unreleased tracks for 20/20. The first question that might come to mind for followers of the various SMiLE tales is how Mike's objections to "Cabinessence" were gotten around. Has anyone ever had the chutzpah to ask Mike about the circumstances behind it winding up as an official release at that time? Inquiring minds want to know...

As Liz speculated earlier, the Redwood incident may have kiboshed any ideas that Brian had about going on with any kind of outside project. As it was in October '67, he had his hands full getting WILD HONEY together: the band had made it clear that they needed a new LP right away since SMILEY was floundering and there was no track on it that could be used as a single. Which is why "Wild Honey" was cut in late September, with Brian apparently thinking that he could then bounce back and forth from various projects. As it turned out, "Darlin'" was a bigger hit than "Wild Honey," and drove the WILD HONEY LP sales in the first months of '68.

But that's the "forward-facing" territoriality, if you will. What about the "backward-facing" territoriality? If the "10-track SMiLE" and Brother Records were both kiboshed in fall '67, did Brian throw up his hands about the SMiLE material right then and there? The amount of "Child" in "Little Bird" isn't enough to kill off a return to SMiLE, but a family ultimatum that Brian had to see through a transition to a fully functioning band (meaning songwriting/production as well as their already-separate touring) before venturing out to work with outside artists could have done so. Something changed regarding this in the fall-winter of '67-'68. And then something changed in Brian after those sessions he led after FRIENDS that stalled out with only two released songs ("Do It Again" and "I Went to Sleep"), which led to a scramble in the fall to come up with tracks. This was Brian's first real "fallow period," with no new songs (though folks suggest he was still involved in some of the sessions, such as the first "Cottonfields").

It's clear that the downward spiral for Brian, where the "manic" phase mostly disappears, occurs in the second half of '68. What did the escalating tug of war over the remaining unused SMiLE tracks have to do with that? And how much of it was his desire/need to withdraw from a situation where he'd tried to have some cake and eat it too on FRIENDS, and becoming vulnerable to backlash when the LP tanked?

I'm not trying to "go Gaines" on this, but there are still some unanswered questions here that can illuminate some of the remaining dark corners in the time frame, corners that certainly appear to stem from the lingering effects of SMiLE.
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♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #461 on: July 31, 2022, 09:45:04 PM »

Billy! Grin

😎
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Zenobi
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« Reply #462 on: August 10, 2022, 08:49:51 AM »

A further cheer for the thread that rejuvenated this forum. Well done! 👍
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #463 on: August 10, 2022, 07:24:26 PM »

Just to give it further exposure for those who haven't read it (and so it doesn't get buried on a 7 year old thread), very much on topic to this discussion...the Michael Vosse "Fusion" article from 1969:












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Zenobi
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« Reply #464 on: August 11, 2022, 01:20:07 PM »

Extremely interesting article, thanks. That about Wonderful... I don't agree. Brian did not change it to a joke. Just another kind of masterpiece. Like Wind Chimes.
I think the "alt" versions of the SMiLE songs in Smiley Smile are the greatest show of genius by Brian... maybe equalled only by Love You.
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« Reply #465 on: August 11, 2022, 06:39:35 PM »

I would suggest everyone read this Vosse article, those who have previously could read it with fresh eyes, and those who have not read the article read each paragraph and take in what he lays out.

And his own opinions aside, point out where Vosse got something wrong. Because people in certain small fan circles have been trying to discredit the article and Vosse himself for at least a decade. Again, the simple question is what did he get wrong. I'm curious to hear the examples.
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« Reply #466 on: August 11, 2022, 06:49:10 PM »

And going back a few pages to an earlier topis (or topics), I'd specifically point to this quote referring to November '66 after the band returned from that '66 European tour:



There are several key factors mentioned in those paragraphs that are worth noting and considering in terms of the previous discussions here. One of them being the band's concerns about playing Brian's new Smile material live.
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« Reply #467 on: August 11, 2022, 07:28:54 PM »

Vosse captures the tragedy of the whole thing well. Undecided
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
Zenobi
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« Reply #468 on: August 11, 2022, 09:41:18 PM »

Maybe he did not get anything wrong?
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #469 on: August 13, 2022, 07:48:58 PM »

Let's assume Brian did manage to complete Smile in 1967, it got released (or dropped as they say today), became a massive hit, and was loved as much as Sgt. Pepper.
How was Brian (and the Beach Boys) going to follow that up?
How do you top Pet Sounds AND Smile?
Eventually, our hero was going to crack.
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« Reply #470 on: August 14, 2022, 06:46:42 AM »

Or maybe... after that heroic effort they decide something much simpler, and call it Wild Honey. Smiley
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mike s
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« Reply #471 on: August 15, 2022, 03:10:24 PM »



'on December 27 and 28, Brian was working on Heroes, and these were the first dates that the song was officially incorporated with what were previously the choruses of Do You Like Worms (bicycle rider) and Cabin Essence (iron horse), which were now bridges of Heroes.'

Wow interesting.  How do you know this..?  I would have thought he was just working on the various sections rather than putting them into H&V..?
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mike s
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« Reply #472 on: August 15, 2022, 03:29:29 PM »


'Brian spliced Bicycle Rider onto the Heroes and Villains verse track on December 27 when he repurposed it for that song'

Super interesting but how do you know this..?
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sloopjohnb72
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« Reply #473 on: August 15, 2022, 04:08:38 PM »


'Brian spliced Bicycle Rider onto the Heroes and Villains verse track on December 27 when he repurposed it for that song'

Super interesting but how do you know this..?

Well, the two tapes are literally spliced together. Bicycle Rider was cut from the complete assembly of Worms (literally cut, with a razor), and pasted after the verse of Heroes and Villains, which came on the same tape reel.
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BJL
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« Reply #474 on: August 15, 2022, 06:06:29 PM »

Well, the two tapes are literally spliced together. Bicycle Rider was cut from the complete assembly of Worms (literally cut, with a razor), and pasted after the verse of Heroes and Villains, which came on the same tape reel.

When you say complete assembly of Worms, was this edited together as a potential finished backing track, or is it just the pieces lined up on one reel?
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