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Author Topic: Sounds of Summer 6LP Announced  (Read 29296 times)
William Bowe
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« Reply #125 on: June 16, 2022, 09:56:18 AM »

If you were offended by the Marcella mix, you'll no doubt feel the same way about Let Us Go On This Way -- it's got a big reverb-y drum sound that's clearly meant to play to the contemporary listener in a way that the entire Love You album distinctly does not.

But Baby Blue -- oh my. Gorgeous. Fully lives up to Howie Edelstein's hype. I'll never want to hear the original mix again.

I like the new mix of Mess of Help -- drums maybe a bit too conspicuous, but dispels the muddiness of the original without committing sacrilege.
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« Reply #126 on: June 16, 2022, 10:06:57 AM »

The poster over there said Howie’s interview indicates he things AM and FM matter for the Beach Boys in 2022. That’s ENTIRELY missing the point. It’s the opposite! They’re not a presence on radio much, and haven’t been for quite some time. The point isn’t that remixing “Baby Blue” is going to get them on the radio in 2022. The point is that the BBs not existing in the “classic rock” realm alongside other peers is a *symptom* of a long string of unfortunate things that injured their cred/image/legacy over the years. The point is now to right those wrongs the best they can be. Not by trying to get radio to play “Marcella” or “Baby Blue” now, but rather to talk the band up in media and venues that will give them some of that cred, and will make both their music and the ability to discover and enjoy their music something that is relatable and tangible and plausible for a 20-year-old in 2022.

The point that you and Howie are missing is that 20-year-olds who are into FM classic rock are already into the Beach Boys. And they don't care what some boomer critics wrote in Rolling Stone fifty years ago. That old school of thought is painfully irrelevant.

One of the major reasons EH blew up was because of Howie saying that 20-year-olds don't appreciate the nerdy/kitsch songs. It's an insane statement. Bands like Weezer, They Might Be Giants, and BMX Bandits made entire careers out of exploiting Beach Boys-style kitsch. Are they seen as "shitty doo-wop" today? No!

You’re drawing a comparison or example where one isn’t being made. If you’ve read what Howie has written here on this board over the years about the Beach Boys vis-à-vis terrestrial radio, you’d understand he’s well aware of how it works and how it’s *not* a thing *now*. He literally works in radio.

In the interview, he’s talking about the band as an “FM band” (or in this case *not* moving into being an FM band) back then, and how that is both a cause and symptom of what happened in subsequent years. If they had been a stereo/AOR/FM band back 50-some years ago, things wouldn’t have needed as much of the extra nudge and talking up in the 2000s that has needed to happen to make a younger audience pay attention to something that isn’t surf/car/striped shirts or “Kokomo.”

Nobody is saying 20-year-olds are going to listen to “Marcella” on FM today. Nobody is even saying “Marcella” is going to be played on FM today. Or that 20-year-olds listen to terrestrial radio.

The fact that a 20-year-old doesn’t care what Rolling Stone wrote 50 years ago is the point! And why it’s being talked about now is because an *interviewer* asked for some context/history/background on how things got where they were in the 70s, and the early 2000s, and now. That’s what Howie is talking about. These are all distinct eras where the BBs and their catalog and legacy were at different points. The late 90s/early 2000s was very different from the 70s, and 2022 is very different from both eras. Howie is talking in this interview about how things changed through these different eras for the band’s image/legacy/cool factor, whatever you want to call it, and how he set about doing his part to change this perception. I lived through these eras, so did he.

Also, I think it’s far too broad of a statement to say that 20-year-olds in 2022 who are into “FM rock” are already into the Beach Boys. Like, they’re all familiar with “Here She Comes” and “Steamboat?”

And I don't think “Weezer” and that ilk are synonymous with the Blondie/Ricky era of the BBs. Not that anybody is specifically asserting that, but I think this highlights that I think anybody will agree trying to nail down any one demographic down to one or two band examples does not tell the whole story. But what Howie is talking about, and what I have witnessed myself looking at fandom and the big picture of what the relevant “masses” have been into over decades, is the progression from the emphasis on the early era stuff, to the first wave of “nerdy” appreciation for the Pet Sounds/Smile era (hence the references to the UK and features in MOJO, etc.) in the 90s, and the need to shift that narrative again away from only the 60s stuff (and indeed the emphasis often on “crazy Brian”, etc.) and to the 1970-1974-ish era of the band. The “young music nerds” who got into the BBs via “Pet Sounds”  and “Smile” in like the mid 90s were *not* talking anywhere near as much about the 70s stuff. It was all the label could do to justify putting the 70s stuff back out on CD in 2000 in any form, where they had to be pared back from single-album CD reissues filled with bonus tracks, to “two-fers” on one CD.

The modern landscape of how people, especially younger people, listen to and consume and enjoy music (and how word spreads) is very different in 2022, and in some ways far more nebulous to even generalize about. I don’t think anybody thinks this new mix of “Marcella” is going to go viral or trend on Twitter. But it’s the correct step in making the stuff more relevant and opening some doors, as “Feel Flows” (and *talking up* “Feel Flows”) also did and the next set will do.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 10:14:11 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #127 on: June 16, 2022, 10:09:33 AM »

If you were offended by the Marcella mix, you'll no doubt feel the same way about Let Us Go On This Way -- it's got a big reverb-y drum sound that's clearly meant to play to the contemporary listener in a way that the entire Love You album distinctly does not.

But Baby Blue -- oh my. Gorgeous. Fully lives up to Howie Edelstein's hype. I'll never want to hear the original mix again.

I like the new mix of Mess of Help -- drums maybe a bit too conspicuous, but dispels the muddiness of the original without committing sacrilege.

Modern "rock" music that would even be anywhere in the same idiom as Beach Boys music tends to have much more prominent drums and guitars. So especially with the drums, these remixes totally make sense and are a welcome and needed alternative.

Some of the drums on some BB stuff that is otherwise pretty rocky and progressive (for the BBs anyway) still are pretty low and pretty flat in those mixes.

It's the same reason they remix like "I Want to Hold Your Hand" so the friggin' handclaps aren't louder than the drums.
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« Reply #128 on: June 16, 2022, 10:12:56 AM »

I love all the new releases and don’t have any serious audiophile complaints about Feel Flows . My only question is whether I need Sounds of Summer if I already own all of the songs. For anyone starting to collect BBs material it sounds great. I just don’t know if am willing to pay simply for new mixes. I purchased so many comps in the past but then I just listened to Made in California instead-so do I need another greatest hits? But that has nothing to do with this particular comp-it’s a question we all consider every time a new compilation appears. Sometimes I break down and buy it and sometimes I don’t-like I ended up buying the ultra deluxe recent Who Sell Out even though I already owned the previous version with lots of extra tracks. But if five years down the line an even more deluxe one appears-it would be a hard sell.
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« Reply #129 on: June 16, 2022, 10:33:48 AM »

HeyJude, it seems like we listened to a different podcast. Howie explicitly said that he makes decisions about the comps based on what he thinks is "cool" from the perspective of a hypothetical 23-year-old. That is what disturbed the REAL 20-year-olds who lurk around the BBs fan community, none of whom are particularly active on this forum. Almost everything else in your post is, again, irrelevant to that single point. You're approaching this from precisely the same broken and misguided framework as Howie.

Also, I think it’s far too broad of a statement to say that 20-year-olds in 2022 who are into “FM rock” are already into the Beach Boys. Like, they’re all familiar with “Here She Comes” and “Steamboat?”

Do you think a 20-year-old who gets into the Beach Boys in 2022 is just going to stay with Pet Sounds and Smile for the rest of their life? No, eventually they're going to check out the band's other albums. As we all did. We didn't do it because some dude from the company was constantly comparing them to the Beatles, Led Zeppelin and the Who. Or because of a remix that amped up the compression.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 10:48:30 AM by terrei » Logged
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« Reply #130 on: June 16, 2022, 10:56:31 AM »

HeyJude, it seems like we listened to a different podcast. Howie explicitly said that he makes decisions about the comps based on what he thinks is "cool" from the perspective of a hypothetical 23-year-old. That is what disturbed the REAL 20-year-olds who lurk around the BBs fan community, none of whom are particularly active on this forum. Almost everything else in your post is, again, irrelevant to that single point.


I don't think he asserted that was the sole reasoning behind how the comps are designed (and keep in mind, as he mentioned, he is one of several on a team making these decisions; he's not unilaterally doing anything, which some on that other board seemed to feel was the case for some reason).

But again, you said the interview implied that 20-year-olds care in 2022 about FM radio (and all the other things you mentioned that I responded to; the things that for some reason are now "irrelevant" even though I wasn't the one who raised those points), and that's all incorrect both in practice and in terms of what was asserted in that interview. You're drawing way too many direct connections between the one statement about having young listeners in mind when working on these releases, and I guess, *everything else* he said in the interview, as if everything else in the interview was meant to relate directly to that one point. Hence the strange assertion that *anybody* suggested 20-year-olds are listening to terrestrial radio, waiting to hear a 70s BB cut.

How does this nebulous group of unaware-yet-adament group of very young, lurker BB fans want to be discussed? A podcast about, in part, the "Sounds of Summer" comp reissue briefly mentioned the idea of making some track selections and doing some remixes to make things more relevant to a newer demographic. What is this nebulous group so offended by? Did *they* listen to the whole interview? Do they know what they were even talking about in the interview? Do they understand background/context, or the concept of an interviewer asking such questions? Did they miss the point or only half-listen to the thing and also think anybody is suggesting they currently, in 2022, are being targeted by a push to FM or something? I'm well aware there are young fans, and lurkers, and people who don't fit into one comfortable category. But I'm skeptical and wary of any characterization of this group that includes some assertion that a bunch are offended by this interview/podcast, as opposed to the weird small group of people who got really bizarrely antagonistic and mean-spirited on that other board. About a few comments in a podcast. About a reissue of a reissue of a hits compilation. In which they clearly missed every point.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 11:27:47 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #131 on: June 16, 2022, 11:26:40 AM »

Once again, HeyJude, you've drowning yourself in rhetoric and obfuscating what Howie actually said:

"What I did was say, "I'm going to cover the Beach Boys like it's the Who, the Beatles, the Stones, Led Zeppelin, because I want to right a great wrong. I want to cover them like they should have been covered in 1967.""

"I think I bring the cool. I know what's cool. And I know what's cool about them, and I know what hasn't been tapped about them."

"There were songs that I wasn't cool with being on the new comp, and I got outvoted. The stuff that I wanted to back away from was the - my fear is that they will get perceived, worst case scenario, as Pat Boone. As shitty doo-wop. As a public TV special. That's what I don't want. So where am I always pushing is: get the beards, get them playing Central Park. That kind of stuff where they're more modern. The Beach Boys sang about mom and dad, and high school. Unless you're like, somebody who's in the kitsch of like Weezer, and that nerdy kind of thing... Grease ain't cool anymore. You know what I mean? But you know what is cool? Sunflower. Surf's Up. Take A Load Off Your Feet. Student Demonstration Time. Feel Flows. That kind of stuff."

"When Mark was doing the remixes last summer, I was pushing him to go even further. I was saying specifically to him, there are some Beach Boys albums where the album is there, the songs are there, but the production left the band down. Either it was rushed, or it didn't... The production didn't match the quality of the performance and the material. The weak link in a lot of stuff was a shitty mix and bad mastering. So what I was saying to Linett was, "You need to be the producer that they never had then. You need to be the guy that's hearing all that stuff and realizing it. Be the guy in the corner that they needed."

"So as far as it goes at making it understandable to a younger generation, absolutely. Because 62-year-old people, 65-year-old people aren't buying new music. We have to be aiming for the 23-year-old, or this thing dies."



Here's (hopefully) my last words on the subject:

There will never be a time when critics rank So Tough and Holland side-by-side with Pet Sounds, Sgt Pepper, Dark Side of the Moon, Aja, Hotel California, and Rumours. We need to accept this.

Isn't it funny how we've gone full circle from "America's Top Surfing Band!" to "America's Top Classic Rock Band!"?

Anyone in charge of marketing and promotion for the Beach Boys needs to stop framing them as "classic rock à la the Beatles and Rolling Stones." If you can't appreciate the fact that the Beach Boys are inimitably kitsch at heart, then you're probably not qualified to be the arbiter of what's "cool" about them.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 11:31:42 AM by terrei » Logged
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« Reply #132 on: June 16, 2022, 11:43:56 AM »

Once again, HeyJude, you've drowning yourself in rhetoric and obfuscating what Howie actually said:

"What I did was say, "I'm going to cover the Beach Boys like it's the Who, the Beatles, the Stones, Led Zeppelin, because I want to right a great wrong. I want to cover them like they should have been covered in 1967.""

"I think I bring the cool. I know what's cool. And I know what's cool about them, and I know what hasn't been tapped about them."

"There were songs that I wasn't cool with being on the new comp, and I got outvoted. The stuff that I wanted to back away from was the - my fear is that they will get perceived, worst case scenario, as Pat Boone. As shitty doo-wop. As a public TV special. That's what I don't want. So where am I always pushing is: get the beards, get them playing Central Park. That kind of stuff where they're more modern. The Beach Boys sang about mom and dad, and high school. Unless you're like, somebody who's in the kitsch of like Weezer, and that nerdy kind of thing... Grease ain't cool anymore. You know what I mean? But you know what is cool? Sunflower. Surf's Up. Take A Load Off Your Feet. Student Demonstration Time. Feel Flows. That kind of stuff."

"When Mark was doing the remixes last summer, I was pushing him to go even further. I was saying specifically to him, there are some Beach Boys albums where the album is there, the songs are there, but the production left the band down. Either it was rushed, or it didn't... The production didn't match the quality of the performance and the material. The weak link in a lot of stuff was a shitty mix and bad mastering. So what I was saying to Linett was, "You need to be the producer that they never had then. You need to be the guy that's hearing all that stuff and realizing it. Be the guy in the corner that they needed."

"So as far as it goes at making it understandable to a younger generation, absolutely. Because 62-year-old people, 65-year-old people aren't buying new music. We have to be aiming for the 23-year-old, or this thing dies."



Here's (hopefully) my last words on the subject:

There will never be a time when critics rank So Tough and Holland side-by-side with Pet Sounds, Sgt Pepper, Dark Side of the Moon, Aja, Hotel California, or Rumours. We need to accept this.

Isn't it funny how we've gone full circle from "America's Top Surfing Band!" to "America's Top Classic Rock Band!"?

Anyone in charge of marketing and promotion for the Beach Boys needs to stop framing them as "classic rock à la the Beatles and Rolling Stones." If you can't appreciate the fact that the Beach Boys are inimitably kitsch at heart, then you're probably not qualified to be the arbiter of what's "cool" about them.

You're saying, I guess, that some very specific things are being asserted in that interview about "23-year-olds." I think you're ascribing *far too much* specificity about an interview that was clearly a flowing interview/conversation that was moving between more specific and less specific statements about the band and various fanbases/demographics.

I think your interpretation of this interview is just off base and missing the point, that's all.

Nobody thinks "So Tough" is going to *actually* be ranked alongside Pepper or whatever classic album. The point is to get it *closer* to that than "kitsch."

And your comment about the Beach Boys being "kitsch" at heart is at least something that we can nail down and I can definitely say I disagree with. I'd rather fans and the teams working on these things, while knowing we aren't going to get "Holland" to be side-by-side in everybody's mind to "Dark Side of the Moon" or whatever, try to get it *closer* to there than "kitsch."

Do you know what "kitsch" is?

"art, objects, or design considered to be in poor taste because of excessive garishness or sentimentality, but sometimes appreciated in an ironic or knowing way."

If *you* are satisfied with resigning yourself to accepting people liking BB songs ironically, then have it. If you're happy with *that* being the angle for the Beach Boys to be marketed and discussed, then I think you'd be the one out of a job if Iconic came to you after spending *that* much money on the entire brand only to be told the best angle to market this stuff is as "kitsch."

If everybody working in, for, and around the band had resigned themselves to that fate, we never would have seen something like the "Feel Flows" set.

I'm all for bringing everything in, including the weird, subversive stuff. It can all be a part of the narrative. But it's like trying to turn someone on to the Beach Boys because they did drugs or hung out with Charles Manson. Or because John Stamos thinks they're cool. I'm all for piggybacking off of everything a little bit.

But the band itself already *hasn't* in the past understood the intrinsic value of their unreleased material, to use one example. If you go to them and tell them you want to market them as "kitsch", it's not going to make them *more* enthusiastic about releasing "Holland" outtakes.

All of this ignores how the actual Beach Boys/BRI/Iconic situation works, both now and historically. And that's important, because the team working on these releases isn't just thinking about 20-year-olds. They're also navigating the politics of BRI, Iconic, Capitol/UMe, and the individual band members and their whims.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 11:47:14 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #133 on: June 16, 2022, 12:24:26 PM »

If everybody working in, for, and around the band had resigned themselves to that fate, we never would have seen something like the "Feel Flows" set.

I'm all for bringing everything in, including the weird, subversive stuff. It can all be a part of the narrative. But it's like trying to turn someone on to the Beach Boys because they did drugs or hung out with Charles Manson. Or because John Stamos thinks they're cool. I'm all for piggybacking off of everything a little bit.

But the band itself already *hasn't* in the past understood the intrinsic value of their unreleased material, to use one example. If you go to them and tell them you want to market them as "kitsch", it's not going to make them *more* enthusiastic about released "Holland" outtakes.

All of this ignores how the actual Beach Boys/BRI/Iconic situation works, both now and historically. And that's important, because the team working on these releases isn't just thinking about 20-year-olds. They're also navigating the politics of BRI, Iconic, Capitol/UMe, and the individual members and their whims.

BOOM. Sums it up perfectly (the whole post, but specifically this^). As you have written painfully numerous times: Howie isn't the only guy deciding stuff. He is one guy on what is basically a HUGE committee that decides the future of what gets released, what the image of those releases will be, etc. I love the nerdy stuff, and I want it all released, but I also completely understand what Howie is saying. And again, he ain't the only person on the team and this should be ridiculously obvious to people.

We've got to be the most lucky and childish fandom in the history of music. To get the SMiLE boxset (and what a beautiful set it was) and then all of the amazing content we've gotten since. And yet people are incessantly whining about the Feel Flows set because of 10 seconds of supposed unlistenable vocals on 'Hawaiian Dream' (oh the humanity!) - for the life of me I cannot find any moment on the entire set where the audio sounds bad. Maybe I'm listening on the wrong studio headphones, or maybe my $$$$ home stereo system just isn't cutting it anymore to where I can't pick up on some infinitesimal moment of high treble.

And whether or not one agrees with Howie or has a personal preference regarding the sound of the latest releases (to each their own), I just don't see how the reaction to Howie's podcast interview can even be defended. Howie was proud of the mixing that Mark/Alan did on 'Baby Blue' (and apparently it is a great sounding mix) and was called arrogant for his "definitive" comment. Even the administrator of the forum was so obnoxiously flippant when responding to Howie the entire thread. And remember, Howie is the guy who fought long and hard for Feel Flows to even be released. And this is the thanks he gets.

Again, the combination of politics and just the culture of dishonest pleasantry that permeates that forum - the response to such a chill interview is indefensible, imo.
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« Reply #134 on: June 16, 2022, 12:29:32 PM »

If you were offended by the Marcella mix, you'll no doubt feel the same way about Let Us Go On This Way -- it's got a big reverb-y drum sound that's clearly meant to play to the contemporary listener in a way that the entire Love You album distinctly does not.

But Baby Blue -- oh my. Gorgeous. Fully lives up to Howie Edelstein's hype. I'll never want to hear the original mix again.

I like the new mix of Mess of Help -- drums maybe a bit too conspicuous, but dispels the muddiness of the original without committing sacrilege.

Hmmm I'm very intrigued by 'Let Us Go On This Way' - based on the two descriptions I've read I don't know if I'll love or hate it. But again I'm glad they're trying something new, instead of just remastering the original mix.

Great to hear about 'Baby Blue' - can't wait to hear that too! I just may stay up until midnight to listen to a bit of this set.
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« Reply #135 on: June 16, 2022, 12:37:32 PM »

I will NEVER understand the desire for The Beach Boys to be a guilty pleasure. I just don’t get it. I mean, sh*t, it’s ok if other people like what you like 🙄

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« Reply #136 on: June 16, 2022, 12:59:13 PM »

The music of Brian Wilson is 'kitsch'? That is just laughable. Couldn't be further removed from the truth.
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« Reply #137 on: June 16, 2022, 01:02:01 PM »

Quote
Great to hear about 'Baby Blue' - can't wait to hear that too!

It's probably not a coincidence that my favourite of the new 1970s mixes is a song with no drums.

ETA: Listening to the original version on LA now after a couple of plays of the new mix, and I hardly describe how inferior it is.
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« Reply #138 on: June 16, 2022, 01:14:27 PM »

If everybody working in, for, and around the band had resigned themselves to that fate, we never would have seen something like the "Feel Flows" set.

I'm all for bringing everything in, including the weird, subversive stuff. It can all be a part of the narrative. But it's like trying to turn someone on to the Beach Boys because they did drugs or hung out with Charles Manson. Or because John Stamos thinks they're cool. I'm all for piggybacking off of everything a little bit.

But the band itself already *hasn't* in the past understood the intrinsic value of their unreleased material, to use one example. If you go to them and tell them you want to market them as "kitsch", it's not going to make them *more* enthusiastic about released "Holland" outtakes.

All of this ignores how the actual Beach Boys/BRI/Iconic situation works, both now and historically. And that's important, because the team working on these releases isn't just thinking about 20-year-olds. They're also navigating the politics of BRI, Iconic, Capitol/UMe, and the individual members and their whims.

BOOM. Sums it up perfectly (the whole post, but specifically this^). As you have written painfully numerous times: Howie isn't the only guy deciding stuff. He is one guy on what is basically a HUGE committee that decides the future of what gets released, what the image of those releases will be, etc. I love the nerdy stuff, and I want it all released, but I also completely understand what Howie is saying. And again, he ain't the only person on the team and this should be ridiculously obvious to people.

We've got to be the most lucky and childish fandom in the history of music. To get the SMiLE boxset (and what a beautiful set it was) and then all of the amazing content we've gotten since. And yet people are incessantly whining about the Feel Flows set because of 10 seconds of supposed unlistenable vocals on 'Hawaiian Dream' (oh the humanity!) - for the life of me I cannot find any moment on the entire set where the audio sounds bad. Maybe I'm listening on the wrong studio headphones, or maybe my $$$$ home stereo system just isn't cutting it anymore to where I can't pick up on some infinitesimal moment of high treble.

And whether or not one agrees with Howie or has a personal preference regarding the sound of the latest releases (to each their own), I just don't see how the reaction to Howie's podcast interview can even be defended. Howie was proud of the mixing that Mark/Alan did on 'Baby Blue' (and apparently it is a great sounding mix) and was called arrogant for his "definitive" comment. Even the administrator of the forum was so obnoxiously flippant when responding to Howie the entire thread. And remember, Howie is the guy who fought long and hard for Feel Flows to even be released. And this is the thanks he gets.

Again, the combination of politics and just the culture of dishonest pleasantry that permeates that forum - the response to such a chill interview is indefensible, imo.


Well said all around!

I'm catching some deja vu vibes to 2015 when various parts of the No Pier Pressure album were also tagged with the label "unlistenable"...often by posters with less than 10 posts to their history too. So like HeyJude, I have to wonder what's going on if the tag "unlistenable" is being thrown around again, by posters with short or no histories. That's what's happening?

I also don't understand criticism of the Feel Flows set. Opinions are opinions and everyone can have one, but are there people seriously bashing the Feel Flows set too? Maybe that's not surprising...disappointing but not surprising...considering the negative reactions and name-calling that went on when people here and elsewhere were pushing for the set's release through the petition, which was ultimately successful and got a lot of support. Support, despite people elsewhere trying to bash the petition too.

Oh well.

You're right Rab, we're spoiled as fans. Apart from the last few years' worth of releases, I'm still not fully recovered from hearing that 45 minutes of Smile material on the GV box set back in '93, and then the PS Sessions box (one of the best archival releases ever), then Smile Sessions...which won a Grammy!

And people are complaining and calling things unlistenable? FFS, I don't understand that reaction either.

I'm wondering if the politics of this whole scene didn't get mixed in this time too. Who knows.
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« Reply #139 on: June 16, 2022, 01:17:31 PM »

I haven’t chimed in here at the board, so I’ll briefly place my thoughts on everything: It’s to hear more guitar (and a little organ) on “Marcella.” Also not a fan of Carl’s “ooh-ooh”s.  I do think there are some interesting track listing choices: I think Howie made some good choices, but it would’ve been nice if the “second disc” more closely followed The Warmth of the Sun compilation (especially a lack of California Dreamin’ IIRC in light of its recent use in Stranger Things).

As someone near the age being targeted, I think that is great, and I do think EH is a little harsh, to be kind about it.


As the board’s resident Metallica fan, the idea of this being compared to metal is freaking hilarious to me.

Yeah, I made the mistake of reading that thread over there. Two things… 1) The gene pool could use a bit more chlorine, and 2) typical boomer sh*t.

I got one thing to say to those “fans” bitching about how things have been since the sale (yeah I saw that too). I subscribe to ChartMetric (Artist tier)… the Beach Boys’ popularity on Spotify alone has sky rocketed since the sale. Compared to most of their peers, their stock is rising.  Is anyone else my age (almost 44) or older aware that the BB’s popularity has come close to surpassing the Beatles? Anyone else aware that the generations after mine revere them on a way nobody else has since 1966? So many of us are still bitter over sh*t that happened decades ago, and bear the scars of liking the group
when it was uncool to do so, to the point where few notice that hasn’t been an issue since around 2011. TSS did wonders for the group’s rep, as did the C50. That’s when I noticed a lot of early 20s kids getting into them.  Something funny happened, though…. they went from the 67-72 period being their most popular amongst the indie scene, to pretty much all of the 60s material being held in the same regard. The 20 somethings and under folks now don’t look at The Beach Boys as a group full of wasted potential, or as washed up has beens who got bitch slapped by the Beatles. Instead, they’re hailed as the fathers of indie rock and bedroom pop.

Tl;Dr version… the group’s legacy has been handled marvelously since the sale, and at just the right time too.



Billy C, I have a couple questions regarding this post. Is that really since the sale, or is that just since Feel Flows? I understand they happened at similar times but I don’t know if IAG has really done that much yet for the group, if we’re not counting getting FF released. This might be a stupid complaint from me, but I prefer the 1976 logo to the current one, and that’s really all I can think that Azoff has done. Definitely excited for a good documentary, which I will admit only Azoff can get done.  In addition, (IMO) the band is much better than anything ever classified as indie, indie rock, or bedroom pop, even if they are the forerunners of those genres. And I’m not sure the band has surpassed The Beatles yet - I think the most we can hope for is a tie in the next couple years.

Prior to Feel Flows. The way they’re being marketed , and how they are described by the music media, has certainly changed.

This stuff doesn’t happen in a vacuum. I know a lot of people think of Fleetwood Mac’s popularity being mainly due to the Tik Tok thing with Dreams are missing the boat… same with the Kate Bush song being on Stranger Things and is currently #4 on the Hot 100…. these are legacy artists that were already starting to get traction amongst a younger fan base (and in the Mac’s case it’s the Bob Welch period that has gained a lot of traction; conversely the Peter Green era has lost a lot of steam) .
There are songs charting that sound retro; not “manufactured major label artists” but artists from mid sized indies who write and play their own music.

As far as the Beatles goes, I’m mostly  referring to raw numbers, along with how they’re viewed in comparison by the younger set overall, musicians , media and general public alike . Hell look at music discussions on YouTube or browse non beach boys sites that deal with music that aren’t Hoffman (too old of a crowd). My daughter’s 15 next month and she can pretty much spot trends right before they happen. Hindsight and the lack of cultural bias is an amazing eye opener . We are too close to the action. I’ve been on these boards for over 26 years . I was a younger fan of 17 but the world has changed immensely since . Imagine hearing the band now as a new fan and having SO much available legally and easily be able to put things in context with bias.

This really deserves its own thread but for the first time ever things are lining up perfectly for The Beach Boys, and this time it’s past the point of being able to screw things up.


Billy C, thanks for the explanation. I’ll just say that I’m among the age group Howie wants to target but I’m not good at spotting trends  Wink probably because I don’t like today’s music and therefore have only a fairly small group of people I can talk music with.
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« Reply #140 on: June 16, 2022, 01:24:23 PM »

The music of Brian Wilson is 'kitsch'? That is just laughable. Couldn't be further removed from the truth.

I don't get that label either. By any stretch of the term's definition, I don't see nor have I ever seen the appeal of Brian's music as "kitschy".

I was reminded of the emotional appeal - the deep emotion in many cases - of the music when I rewatched last night that BBC promo that used "God Only Knows" and which featured a number of famous musicians alongside Brian himself doing the song. It may be deliberately tugging on the emotions to use the song that way, but it definitely worked for what it was trying to do, and it was absolutely not kitsch. It could have easily gone into kitsch territory, but it did not. Instead the music, the song itself, transcended everything and it was powerful just to hear it. That's the mark of a great work.

That's just my opinion.
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« Reply #141 on: June 16, 2022, 01:31:19 PM »

If someone wants to categorize the music and enjoy it as kitsch for themselves, then have at it.

But I think this speaks in part to an issue I do see sometimes when it comes to discussing the "big picture" about the band's legacy/status/perceptions, etc. That is, I think some fans don't care. It's like "I've got the music I like, I don't care who else likes it, and I'm ambivalent about how we can make it more relevant to others in the future."

Some people just want to say what they think, assume they're right, fold their arms, mic drop, and they're done.

I think that's just too narrow, too much of a bubble, too insular.

That doesn't meant we have to harangue every person we meet about how great the band is over and over, or do weird contortions or backflips or cluelessly pander to people to like trick them into liking the music.

All it means is having a bit of a broader view of the whole thing, an understanding all aspects of it. This includes the history of the band, how it has been perceived in different eras, and how actions from the band (and the label, and media) both caused some of these issues, or were a reaction to these issues.

If for instance you don't get what the BBs not being on FM radio in the early-mid 70s means, what it was a result of, and what it caused afterwards, and how that is relevant to what is happening today (while understanding nobody is saying that the answer for what to do NOW has anything to do with literally playing them on FM radio in 2022), then it's just my opinion that you're probably better off just listening to what you like and doing your thing and might not have the context and information/knowledge to tell a team currently working on BB projects how they should go about doing their job.

Nobody is trying to make the band #1 on TikTok. It's just about nudging things forward. Throwing your arms up in the air and saying "I give up, it's only ever going to be liked as kitsch" is not the answer. Being resigned to the 70s stuff never being embraced *any* more than it is now by new and young fans is not the answer. In my opinion, of course.
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« Reply #142 on: June 16, 2022, 01:42:12 PM »

I'm catching some deja vu vibes to 2015 when various parts of the No Pier Pressure album were also tagged with the label "unlistenable"...often by posters with less than 10 posts to their history too. So like HeyJude, I have to wonder what's going on if the tag "unlistenable" is being thrown around again, by posters with short or no histories. That's what's happening?

Definitely deja vu vibes to NPP. There was that 10 second iPhone video of an 'On The Island' session that sent some "fans" into a full-blown panic because they suspected "autotune". There was so much petulant backlash that Brian/Management issued a statement about the negative responses. To an iPhone recording of a bossa nova song. Think about that.

This is similar, where something as harmless as a podcast interview turns into a complete shitshow on a forum. Thankfully, since NPP was released, most of those brilliant music critics have gone to the EH forum...Which is exactly why the shitshow took place there and not here.

I will NEVER understand the desire for The Beach Boys to be a guilty pleasure. I just don’t get it. I mean, sh*t, it’s ok if other people like what you like 🙄

It was embarrassing 10 years ago (when I first became a huge fan) to bring this band up to people. Many times I'd hear more about Uncle Jesse than anything else. I know other fans have gone through much worse. So yeah, I appreciate any effort to elevate these guys above Kokomo and and Uncle Jesse references. And in the last 10 years I have seen a shift in tone about The Beach Boys. Not sure why, but perhaps the ongoing PR for the last 10 years has had some effect.

On another note, I implore people to type in 'Shut Down' into their preferred streaming/music service, and listen to the first 10 seconds of each old/vintage mix of that song, then listen to the new 2021 version. It is absolutely like night and day in terms of quality. There is a ton of clarity and life in the 2021 version. The bg vocals aren't panned to the right anymore for stereo. It is just full (in a good way).

If the other early songs are mixed like this we are really in for a treat!
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« Reply #143 on: June 16, 2022, 01:44:33 PM »

Just for perspective, the GV box set I mentioned which blew a lot of minds when it came out is coming up on its 30th anniversary...and the set itself upon its release was tagged "30 Years Of The Beach Boys". So we're one year away from being directly in the middle of 30/30. That's pretty amazing to consider.

That set did more to move the band forward and keep the fire burning among a new generation than perhaps anything I can think of from that era. People heard that set and wanted more. People who were casual fans bought that set and realized how much more there was. I had already taken a deep dive into the band by 1993, but it really crystallized and validated a lot of this music for many of us.

If that set had not come out, alongside of course Pet Sounds on CD a few years prior and other archival releases, the band might not have moved forward into a new generation as it did. It was Jekyll and Hyde in 1993, and that box set reminded fans of my generation what existed beyond greatest hits shows and dancing cheerleaders on stage. I think the rerelease of Pet Sounds and that GV box set helped save the band's legacy from going too far into kitsch, which the stage show and other promotional appearances unfortunately was veering close to doing at that time.

There always has to be something to do that trick for any legacy act.  To move forward and get new generations on board.
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« Reply #144 on: June 16, 2022, 01:45:08 PM »

Only skimming posts as I'm tired/lazy but whoever said "You know what I mean? But you know what is cool? Sunflower. Surf's Up. Take A Load Off Your Feet. Student Demonstration Time. Feel Flows. That kind of stuff."

Can we at least agree that "Student Demonstration Time" will never be cool? not then, not now, not ever!

I await an essay on why SDT is in fact ground breaking and paved the way for the success of Full House years later.
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« Reply #145 on: June 16, 2022, 02:03:22 PM »

I think the idea with something like "Student Demonstration Time" is that it opens the door; it can start a different conversation.

Nobody is going to be like "Hey, you like Zeppelin? The Stones? Well, let me play you Student Demonstration Time!"

But it's a piece of the story that helps tells you "this band eventually went beyond singing about their parents and going to visit grandma, eventually moved past singing about what it would be like to eventually become an adult, and they did actually entertain a harder-edged sound sometimes." It's one little part of the story signaling they were willing to add guitars, they were willing to sing about something socially relevant. Same with "Don't Go Near the Water", etc. It doesn't mean every lyric was like Dylan, or that they approached every bit of all of that completely organically.

Sometimes it's just about putting something out there that's relevant to starting a conversation and a small part of moving perceptions. Maybe the precise intent and certainly the later reflection upon the song isn't what's cool so much as the song *existing* and being a part of the story of that era helps to show that the band and their music was cool.

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« Reply #146 on: June 16, 2022, 02:10:09 PM »

I'm catching some deja vu vibes to 2015 when various parts of the No Pier Pressure album were also tagged with the label "unlistenable"...often by posters with less than 10 posts to their history too. So like HeyJude, I have to wonder what's going on if the tag "unlistenable" is being thrown around again, by posters with short or no histories. That's what's happening?

Definitely deja vu vibes to NPP. There was that 10 second iPhone video of an 'On The Island' session that sent some "fans" into a full-blown panic because they suspected "autotune". There was so much petulant backlash that Brian/Management issued a statement about the negative responses. To an iPhone recording of a bossa nova song. Think about that.

This is similar, where something as harmless as a podcast interview turns into a complete shitshow on a forum. Thankfully, since NPP was released, most of those brilliant music critics have gone to the EH forum...Which is exactly why the shitshow took place there and not here.

I will NEVER understand the desire for The Beach Boys to be a guilty pleasure. I just don’t get it. I mean, sh*t, it’s ok if other people like what you like 🙄

It was embarrassing 10 years ago (when I first became a huge fan) to bring this band up to people. Many times I'd hear more about Uncle Jesse than anything else. I know other fans have gone through much worse. So yeah, I appreciate any effort to elevate these guys above Kokomo and and Uncle Jesse references. And in the last 10 years I have seen a shift in tone about The Beach Boys. Not sure why, but perhaps the ongoing PR for the last 10 years has had some effect.

On another note, I implore people to type in 'Shut Down' into their preferred streaming/music service, and listen to the first 10 seconds of each old/vintage mix of that song, then listen to the new 2021 version. It is absolutely like night and day in terms of quality. There is a ton of clarity and life in the 2021 version. The bg vocals aren't panned to the right anymore for stereo. It is just full (in a good way).

If the other early songs are mixed like this we are really in for a treat!

Be glad you didn’t become a fan in the 90s like me! That appearance on Home Improvement was an embarrassment. I *never* want to go back to the days where they were best known for popping up on milquetoast “comedies” for boomers and Karens . That trash was lame af. Of course, the fact is that’s no longer the case , which means a certain segment of the fan base no longer feels special and unique for liking a band most other people made fun of. Those people need to get over themselves, grow a set (yeah I’m using their words now ) , and accept the fact that time has passed them by. The world moves on. Deal with it.
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« Reply #147 on: June 16, 2022, 02:32:14 PM »

You're right - it's all there. No doubt it will become available wherever you are when the clock strikes midnight, as it has just done here in Australia.

Everything seems to be on YouTube now.

Edit: Most everything.
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« Reply #148 on: June 16, 2022, 02:32:47 PM »

An issue that I’ve noticed creeping up over time is that the number of fans who are both familiar with new/young/modern fans and audiences and how those people consume/discover/enjoy music, and are *also* well-versed on the history of the band (beyond a few bios and Wikipedia or just knowing the discography; like being able to contextualize the full history of the band and its popularity, etc.) are relatively few in number.

To be clear, that’s okay. We don’t have to all be experts on everything. But if we’re going to have conversations about these things (and pick apart how *other* talk about these things), then we need know our s**t, and/or know when to say “please tell me more, I’m not as familiar with that”, or whatever.

A lot of newer, young fans might be able to tell you a lot about how they consume and discover music, and what they and their various social groups find “cool” or not, etc. But new fans, even those who have absorbed a lot of info/history relatively quickly (much easier to do now than it was in the 90s and earlier obviously; there are both more books and more internet resources), often don’t know enough of the history to be able to contextualize everything. You say you don’t care what was happening with the band on radio in the 70s? Well, if your only goal is to just listen to the band’s music and enjoy it for yourself, then you don’t need to know anything about anything. But if you’re telling me you’re a true/hardcore/scholarly fan, and/or you want to have a conversation about this stuff, then yeah, you need to know those things, or at least be willing to have someone educate you on it (or seek that info out yourself). And if you don’t care about that stuff and don’t want to have those conversations, then don’t burst into the room and pick apart someone *else’s* conversation about those topics.

A great BB scholar and author once used the term “adamant but unaware” to describe a phenomenon surrounding bits of fandom from time to time, and I think this is an apt way to put it. And it certainly applies to other “fandoms” as well. Every hot button topic on Twitter is almost exclusively “adamant but unaware” commentators. We avoid a lot of that here simply because of the nature of old school message boards. But it still happens, and as I mentioned earlier, I’m especially skeptical of characterizations of nebulous groups of “young” fans and having their supposed views represented while they (whoever “they” are) don’t actually engage in conversation here themselves.  
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« Reply #149 on: June 16, 2022, 05:10:46 PM »

The new "marcella" is incredible
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