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Author Topic: Fans and Unreleased Versions?!  (Read 10224 times)
analogdemon
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2006, 04:18:32 PM »

Allow me.  The genesis of this thread was in slight annoyance because it just seems to me that so many Beach Boys fans love to say this such as "Oh well, I can't stand 'Come Go With Me' on MIU but the 15 Big Ones version is far better."  Someone actually said to me once that they thought that the version of Susie Cincinnati on 15BO was inferior to the single version.  They're almost identical.  Can anyone really tell a sonic difference?  There are countless examples of this and sometimes I just feel like some people say that this unreleased version or that demo is better purely because it's the unreleased version.  The exact purpose of this thread was to discuss this part of being a Beach Boys fan.  That's all.  This is not a rhetorrical thread intended purely to get a reaction, so please don't take it that way.  I'm actually enjoying this thread.  Thanks!

And Ian, there are a small number of Beach Boys albums that I worship, and neither Stars & Stripes nor Still Cruisin' make that list.  Not by a long shot.  And I don't envy anyone's "collection".  If I want something for my Beach Boys collection, I'll get it.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 05:09:05 PM by analogdemon » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2006, 04:23:48 PM »

I choose to believe that the reason most people like the unreleased versions better is because they're usually the earlier recording, not processed through fancy record label studio techniques, not made to cater to the listener, but instead to those who wrote the song. Some officially-released versions just lose their soul.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 06:09:11 PM by Aegir » Logged

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the captain
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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2006, 05:54:56 PM »

They loose 'em, eh?
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2006, 06:28:29 PM »

I have a theory about BB/BW fans and unreleased versions...

As obsessive diehards, we have been listening to the same songs for years, maybe even decades.  We have them memorized, engrained in our heads, we sometimes sing 'em in our sleep. That doesn't mean we're tired of them, just very, very familiar with them.

After listening to the same old songs , we are hungry for something new, anything new. Then, when we hear an unreleased or alternate version, we welcome it with open arms. The "difference" in the song is refreshing. Sometimes better, sometimes not. But AT FIRST, we usually like it better, just because it is new(er).

But I find something else interesting, at least for me. Many times when I first hear an alternate take, I think, "Oh, that's better than the released version. Why didn't they release this version". But as time goes by, it evens out and most of the time the original version will take over as the better version. Then I'll say, "Oh that Brian. He was right. His released take was the best". Or I'll hear an unreleased song and say "How could they leave that off the album". In a few months I'll listen to it again and realize it really is weak and realize why it was unreleased. Of course, there are exceptions...
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I. Spaceman
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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2006, 06:59:36 PM »

I have a theory about BB/BW fans.
We like the stuff that's better, and don't like so much the stuff that's not as good.
How's that?
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the captain
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« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2006, 07:02:15 PM »

I have a theory about BB/BW fans.
We like the stuff that's better, and don't like so much the stuff that's not as good.
How's that?

And BW/BB fans, being a completely homogeneous group, obviously only like one set of songs more than others.
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I. Spaceman
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« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2006, 07:09:04 PM »

Nope, you haven't got me there either.
That's not what I said.
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the captain
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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2006, 07:16:04 PM »

Feel free to elaborate and/or enlighten.
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I. Spaceman
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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2006, 07:19:04 PM »

There's no need, man. It's plain language.
I have a theory about BB/BW fans.
We like the stuff that's better, and don't like so much the stuff that's not as good.
How's that?

Each of us may like different stuff, but it has nothing to do with it's release history.

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the captain
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2006, 07:22:48 PM »

its
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2006, 07:24:31 PM »

But in addition to that, no. I don't believe that. There is no way--even statistically speaking (if I were the kind of guy to sit around and keep count) that such a percentage of alleged BB-followers would disagree so vehemently on every track for which an alternate version exists.

It's fvcking ego. I am uber-BB/BW fan, hear me roar.
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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2006, 07:26:02 PM »

I have a theory about BB/BW fans.
We like the stuff that's better, and don't like so much the stuff that's not as good.
How's that?

Hahaha...I have to say I think this is a really fabulous thread.  I agree with all sides.  Exclusivity is definitely a factor in liking something, but sometimes the unreleased stuff is just damned good.  And it's not always a matter of putting out a certain version because the original one is weaker.  Some bands, like Television, put newer songs on albums because they were tired of older material they had already played live for years.  That doesn't mean the songs on the album were always better.
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I. Spaceman
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2006, 07:26:48 PM »

Uhhh, Luther, we all disagree about every track for which no alternate version exists, too.
No difference, man.
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2006, 07:46:36 PM »

Ian, I got your point (and I agree with it), but I think you missed mine.

Of course the quality of the track is a determining factor in whether we like/prefer it.   But WHEN AND HOW RECENTLY we heard the alternate version/unreleased song is absolutely a factor in our enjoyment of the track. And remember what I wrote. The degree of how much we like it changes over time.

I'll only bore you with one example - The Pet Sounds box set. I listened to Pet Sounds a hundred times over a period of 20 years. I memorized every note. Then, after 20 years, the boxed set comes out with alternate takes. They're great, top quality, "good" as you would say. Immediately I was blown away. I liked the different ending to "God Only Knows". I liked the original speed of "Caroline No", etc, etc. But after a few months, maybe a year, I started to prefer the 1966 released versions again.

BUT FOR AWHILE, after just listening to the newly released boxed set alternate takes, I was wound up. I might've even written a post on a BB board and said that they were "better than the originals". This is normal isn't it? We are always in different stages of liking/disliking BB songs. Is the quality of the track important? Of upmost importance. Is how long you have been listening to the track or how long it has been available to be listened to important? Of course it is...
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Jeff Mason
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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2006, 08:12:37 PM »

Something very fundamental that is BB specific is being missed here...

The Beach Boys suck at picking their music.

Really.

Think about this -- they were considering using the Lords Prayer track on KTSA in 1980.  What's up with that?  They had the tracks for Adult Child mostly done and in the can and thought that MIU was a better album to release.  They chose not to finish Soulful Old Man Sunshine and instead worked on things like Hold On Dear Brother and He Come Down.  They chose to release Surf's Up with no Denny tracks, despite the quality of work he was doing.

So when we fans say "X unreleased track is better", I don't seriously think it is all about exclusivity.  For the pre-Smile stuff, I don't see any alternative tracks that I would prefer over released ones.  But once the band went democratic, you had serious quality control issues.  Plus, with a home studio and six artists, you had a tremendous volume of music being made, causing a lack of objectivity in the face of so many choices (a problem IMO for Smile as well).

For me at least, it is not about exclusivity.  It is a recognition that the BB consistently left the best music off of their records.  I certainly don't feel the same about outtakes by the Beatles or the Kinks -- they always put out their best stuff. 
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the captain
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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2006, 08:18:16 PM »

Well, Jeff, someone above DID mention that very fact, and afterward, I alluded to it.

But even then, taking into account the volume of music recorded and questionable habits of the band in releasing it, you still can;t justfy the incessant "unreleased version is better" mentality. Some of it, sure. All? No..

I don't care who disagrees with me here. It's been one of most noticeable traits of serious BB fans since I became one. Bootophelia, if you will...
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« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2006, 08:22:28 PM »

Other than Big Sur, what tracks do you hear fans saying that about?  I can see people wishing, say that Denny songs were on Surf's Up or that Adult Child was picked over MIU -- but very few "unreleased alternates" are better than the released ones, even in BB land. 

Smile stuff is the exception -- that is its own beast. 
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Chris D.
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« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2006, 08:24:33 PM »

Well, Jeff, someone above DID mention that very fact, and afterward, I alluded to it.

But even then, taking into account the volume of music recorded and questionable habits of the band in releasing it, you still can;t justfy the incessant "unreleased version is better" mentality. Some of it, sure. All? No..

I don't care who disagrees with me here. It's been one of most noticeable traits of serious BB fans since I became one. Bootophelia, if you will...

You and Sheriff make great points!

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I certainly don't feel the same about outtakes by the Beatles or the Kinks -- they always put out their best stuff.

No way, Jeff.  "Naggin' Woman" and "Dancing in the Street" are trash, especially when they could have put out "I Go to Sleep."

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Jeff Mason
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« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2006, 08:32:38 PM »

Not that familiar with the Kinks outtakes, and certainly not pre-Face to Face.  Admission -- I almost never play the first three Kinks albums, even though I have the CDs with all of the released versions.  I was thinking more about the later years.

And you can't really argue about the Beatles I think.  There may be an occasion where some might, say, prefer the Anthology version of OblaDiOblaDa, but that would assume that either version was good....  Grin
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Chris D.
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« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2006, 08:36:29 PM »

Haha, I like Ob-la-di Ob-la-da, but I pretty much agree about the Beatles.  The Kinks did have some good outtakes.  Find "I Go to Sleep."  I think "Little Women" and "Mr. Reporter" were better than some of the stuff on Face to Face, too.
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Jeff Mason
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« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2006, 08:46:08 PM »

OK, let's distinguish between two types of things here -- people who prefer unreleased outtakes, or people or who prefer subsequent outtakes.  I love Can't Wait Too Long as one of my favorite BB tracks, but now I don't think of it as an unreleased outtake in that people can buy that.  In that sense, it is different to prefer the outtake of Big Sur vs. the Smile version of Heroes and Villains.  The latter is on official CD, the former is not.  I see those as two different beasts as I think it over.  And I see the poster ragging on those who choose stuff not on an official CD.  So that really narrows thing down a bit I would think.  By that I mean this -- to me, who got the Castle CDs as my first Kinks albums, those two songs you mention seem to me in some ways a part of the Face to Face experience.  So they are outtakes in one sense, but not in another.  Did the Kinks ever actually do a version of I Go To Sleep?  Obviously I have the track on Kinda Kinks Castle version, but I assumed that since it was a publishing demo and the song was recorded by someone else that the Kinks never did it.
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Chris D.
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« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2006, 08:58:59 PM »

Good points, Jeff.  But those outtakes are only part of the experience when available.  It's a very tricky issue.  EDIT: That is to say I see outtakes more as part of the group's experience, but not necessarily the album experience.  The album is the album.  The outtakes just form a larger picture of the band and to an extent the album.  But I don't think outtakes should be considered parts of the album when put on later editions of the album.  Then we lose track of what the creators really wanted.

I don't know if the Kinks did "I Go to Sleep."  They should have, even if it was still just Ray on piano.
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Jeff Mason
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« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2006, 05:21:46 AM »

OK, but this thread is mainly about people who have unavailable material who go to a website saying "You think that version you have is good -- if only you could hear this boot!"  In that context, bonus tracks and archive releases should not be considered since everyone has a shot at them.  That was all I was saying.
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Ron
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« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2006, 05:38:19 AM »

I think one of the reasons people prefer the unreleased stuff is, people sometimes like to have an air of exclusivity around them.  I do it sometimes, I think most people do.  People drive cars that are different than everyone elses, and if not, they go get different rims or something.  Sometimes people want to think that they enjoy or know about a song that some others don't.  I don't think it's a selfish "I got something you don't"  it's just the desire to share joy.  I'm serious, the unreleased "Big Sur" is a perfect example everybody keeps bringing up.  That song is friekin' gorgeous, and I really get a huge smile on my face and a kick out of hearing it... so I would be really inclined to say "Yeah, the one on Holland is great, but man, you gotta hear the unreleased version!". 

Again I think one of the reasons people do it is so that they can share something beautiful with somebody else.  It's part of the human condition, man. 
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Jason
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« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2006, 05:51:32 AM »

I can sympathize with those people in this thread who have not heard much unreleased stuff, I was one of those people until August of 2002 when I actually went out and did something about it (yes, you CAN make a difference). Traders are not always egomaniacs who want X number of discs for Y number of discs (those who do are assholes and need to be terminated with extreme prejudice, because they too had to start from nothing), a lot of them are very good people and will most likely hook a brother up if they don't have anything.

But patronizing those people who do have this stuff is most likely not going to make them want to give you anything. Traders want no part of bitter people.

I will ALWAYS hook someone up if they want something.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2006, 06:23:10 AM by Member of Cramerica » Logged
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