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659368 Posts in 26414 Topics by 3755 Members - Latest Member: Joanne Figueroa July 04, 2020, 02:50:48 PM
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Author Topic: TRAINWRECKORDS: Summer In Paradise  (Read 4022 times)
Pretty Funky
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« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2020, 02:04:29 PM »

I think Marilynís quote was closer to Ďif you guys think itís so easy, you try ití, but the context is the same.
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The Nearest Faraway Place
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« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2020, 02:30:47 PM »

Except that you're forgetting that Brian was actively trying to get Carl more involved. It started in the middle of the Smile Sessions, with stuff like Tune X.
Brian was really trying to move Carl to more of a producer leader role, and it really started to take off around the Smiley Smile / Wild honey days.
Let's not forget that Brian was the person who decided to change the producer credit to "The Beach Boys."
Brian simply wanted to loosen his power over the group.
From Dennis in 1976: "If anyone from the group wanted to produce something, they could come down and do anything they wanted to. They could put it out on their own, or if somebody wrote a song and wanted to put it on the album, they could. That game was not played with this group. the group would prefer to have Brian do it all, to write, because we love his music, only because we love his music, not because there's a lack of talent or a weakness. Its just that we really love his music."
The real power struggle didn't come until the MIU days.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2020, 05:30:28 PM »

Except that you're forgetting that Brian was actively trying to get Carl more involved. It started in the middle of the Smile Sessions, with stuff like Tune X.
Brian was really trying to move Carl to more of a producer leader role, and it really started to take off around the Smiley Smile / Wild honey days.
Let's not forget that Brian was the person who decided to change the producer credit to "The Beach Boys."
Brian simply wanted to loosen his power over the group.
From Dennis in 1976: "If anyone from the group wanted to produce something, they could come down and do anything they wanted to. They could put it out on their own, or if somebody wrote a song and wanted to put it on the album, they could. That game was not played with this group. the group would prefer to have Brian do it all, to write, because we love his music, only because we love his music, not because there's a lack of talent or a weakness. Its just that we really love his music."
The real power struggle didn't come until the MIU days.


Except that you're forgetting that Brian was actively trying to get Carl more involved. It started in the middle of the Smile Sessions, with stuff like Tune X.

I'm not forgetting that at all, in fact I've written enough about that topic to fill a few chapters over the past 20 years or so. It wasn't only Carl, Brian was mentoring Dennis too in both production and songwriting. It didn't flourish until a few years after those initial attempts around Smile. He wanted them to start making music on their own, and a big part of that was the plans for Brother Records to be set up to allow and encourage the band members to do this with other acts. But around the time of SS/WH/Friends they simply didn't have the skills to pick up that much of the weight for The Beach Boys, and that's a main reason why Brian was so involved in those records. Carl didn't actually write a fully realized song until the early 70's.

Brian was really trying to move Carl to more of a producer leader role, and it really started to take off around the Smiley Smile / Wild honey days.

Brian may have wanted Carl to move into this role, but as of Smiley Smile and Wild Honey Carl simply wasn't there in terms of skills and ability to make an entire album or produce hit records. He soon did assume that role, but not as of 1967. I don't know where that kind of information that Carl "took off" during this era comes from because it's just not true, and the proof is in the music from '67 into '68 and the way it was written and recorded. Carl was simply not as active as you're suggesting.

Let's not forget that Brian was the person who decided to change the producer credit to "The Beach Boys."

See the comments from Marilyn Wilson in an upcoming reply for more on this. And who changed the credit means little in terms of the bigger picture as far as who was actually doing the work when that credit first appeared. It could be called an appeasement as well as an unloading of bad feelings combined with guilt if you believe what his ex-wife said about this.

Brian simply wanted to loosen his power over the group.

What is the source of this claim? Loosening his power suggests something other than Brian stepping back, quitting the production race, and letting the other guys pick up the load for the reasons he did. I highly doubt it was a case of Brian saying "Guys, I really feel bad about being the guy in charge and exerting all this power over you, so I'm bowing out."

From Dennis in 1976: "If anyone from the group wanted to produce something, they could come down and do anything they wanted to. They could put it out on their own, or if somebody wrote a song and wanted to put it on the album, they could. That game was not played with this group. the group would prefer to have Brian do it all, to write, because we love his music, only because we love his music, not because there's a lack of talent or a weakness. Its just that we really love his music."

1976 was a much different scene with different players and parameters than it was in 1967. Dennis' quote sounds exactly like the situation was in the mid 70's with the group. But it's not relevant to the period originally mentioned. For a variety of reasons, too.

The real power struggle didn't come until the MIU days.

Again, what is the basis for this? There were power struggles throughout the 70's that led to band members and various staff being hired and fired, and band members trying to get a leg up on the others by certain hirings and firings that included everyone from Nick Grillo to Jack Reiley to Steve Love, and that's just on the management side. And according to Jack, some of those power struggles involved the music as well as certain band members wanting to be considered "the boss" over others who were actually in that role, at least musically.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2020, 05:48:00 PM »

i want to take issue with the idea that "the band didn't like what Brian was doing, so they told him to step aside so they could do it themselves". So at what point exactly did this occur? Traditionally, we were taught that this happened during the Smile sessions, so the group took over and gave us Smiley Smile, Wild Honey and Friends. Yet whose handprints are all over those three albums? Rather than Brian being pushed aside by the villain, Mike Love, or another band member, it seems to me that after Friends, Brian was less interested in running the studio side of things, so the guys were forced to pick up the slack. And i think they did wonderfully in that role. I was playing Holland in the car yesterday, and just thinking about that album continues to improve with age. I believe the group always encouraged whatever participation Brian could muster.
CCR is a whole nother story. If you believe John's version, the other guys were begging to contribute to the writing and singing on the albums; if you believe Stu and Doug's version, they merely wanted input into the running of the band. The one guy who really should have been allowed to contribute singing and writing was Tom, but he chose to leave instead. Creedence always had cover tunes on their albums (Pendulum being the exception); what would it have hurt to have Tom sing La Bamba on an album? Do yourselves a favor, listen to some of his solo stuff and then tell me the man couldn't sing! But with John it was "my way or the highway"; having the lion's share of credit for the success of CCR wasn't enough for him; he had to have Total Control.

i want to take issue with the idea that "the band didn't like what Brian was doing, so they told him to step aside so they could do it themselves". So at what point exactly did this occur? Traditionally, we were taught that this happened during the Smile sessions, so the group took over and gave us Smiley Smile, Wild Honey and Friends. Yet whose handprints are all over those three albums? Rather than Brian being pushed aside by the villain, Mike Love, or another band member, it seems to me that after Friends, Brian was less interested in running the studio side of things, so the guys were forced to pick up the slack. And i think they did wonderfully in that role. I was playing Holland in the car yesterday, and just thinking about that album continues to improve with age. I believe the group always encouraged whatever participation Brian could muster.

Could you quote the exact post that made this assertion? The only thing I can find that closely resembles the quote you shared is Guitarfool stating "it sounded a lot like what Marilyn said in the BW documentary happened with the Beach Boys and Brian. If you guys don't like what I'm doing or how it's being done, do it yourselves!" which is the complete opposite of what your quote suggests. That being said, maybe I just can't find the quote you're referring to, but if you wouldn't mind pointing it out so we can have some context I would be grateful.



Exactly right, Rab: However Lonely Summer managed to twist that quote into a pretzel, it's nothing at all like what I originally said nor is it even close to what Marilyn said in the documentary. So I'd also like to know where such a quote came from because it is nothing from this discussion.

As far as CCR, I already spelled out a lot of my own takes and opinions on it, but to carry it further and address Lonely Summer's points: Ultimately it cannot be argued based on the success of that band that John Fogerty's methods were right, and it made the band a success whose hits - any number of them - are still heard on a daily basis. This whole thing about Fogerty wanting "total control", well, he was the producer! He wrote and sang lead on the songs! It was as much his signature sound for the band that made them CCR and made them a unique successful band with a signature sound! In this way it does remind me of Brian and some of the battles he had with the Beach Boys...if Brian or Fogerty were delivering flop after flop, then yeah the "other" band members would have a point. But look at their legacies, The Beach Boys and CCR are still in the upper echelon of most successful bands from the 60's. Was Fogerty wrong to tell Stu what to do on bass or to suggest a drum groove for Doug to play? Hell no! Fogerty made hit records just like Brian did.

And in terms of the other band members, they have a right to feel hurt by what they thought was their leader dominating them and taking full control...but what did they have to offer? We heard it on Mardi Gras, and to put it bluntly, it's pretty shitty music. To go from Have You Ever Seen The Rain and Born On The Bayou and Proud Mary to the tracks Stu and Doug wrote and sang on Mardi Gras is equivalent to someone playing the Endless Summer or Sounds Of Summer album and then playing Summer In Paradise. It's so obvious to hear.

Both Fogerty and Brian were the geese laying the golden eggs for those eras of their respective bands. If the other guys had a bee in their bonnets over control issues, while the hits were coming out one after the other, they'd have a hard time proving they were anything but whiners and complainers as they enjoyed being rock and pop stars. Blunt, yes, but that's my take. If they could do it better, at that time, where were the goods?
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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