Print Page - TRAINWRECKORDS: Summer In Paradise

I confess I don't know all the ins and outs of the organization, but I thought it was more along the lines of the voting partners of BRI basically sided with Mike on having the touring license and kind of made him the captain of the brand. Neither Carl nor Brian were deeply invested in piloting the ship.

I think "Summer of Paradise" happened because it was something to do and there was no real resistance to putting out product, but it wasn't that Mike necessarily had complete control. But Landy's Brian was focused on solo work, Carl kind of lost motivation after the band went oldies (and especially after Dennis died). Al may have resisted elements of the situation, especially with live performances / cheerleaders, but he was the only one perhaps positioned to combat Mike. And however one looks at it, Mike has certainly been more of a face of the brand and IS a family member, so he has a bit more pull than Al.

Again, just my basic understanding, and I would not be at all surprised if I am wrong. :)

As for Carl, the Brian/Paley material, I've thought about this one a lot.

Here's where I land on it ...

I don't think Carl disliked the material. I don't even think he necessarily resented Brian being back in the big chair. And honestly, I don't believe he saw more value in Stars and Stripes, Vol. 1, or in Summer in Paradise, vs. the Paley material.

I think Carl saw a chance of history repeating itself, and this time he said, "That's enough."

From Brian's 1964 breakdown to the Smile meltdown to the 1968 mental disintegration to the Holland struggle to the Brian's Back circus to the "no really, Brian's really back this time" of KTSA, to the return of Landy ... all Carl ever heard was, "Why didn't the band do this, why didn't the band do that, why did Brian get rushed, why was Brian turned back into a performer, why was Brian forced to produce material, why didn't the family stop this, why didn't Carl do XYZ," etc.

Then there was the faux autobiography, the lawsuits, the press, and all anyone could agree on was that things were completely screwed up.

Carl may have seen renewed interest, a new collection of material, Brian at the center and he may have thought to himself, "What if this goes sideways like it has the last twenty years? What if he loses interest and I have to finish the product? What if Brian crashes even harder? What's Brian's mental state? Is he on the right meds? He's smoking again and he's gaining weight, are people going to compare this to 1980-82?"

I think Carl was in a no-win situation. And the only way to basically control the situation and deflect attention on a possible mess was to shut down the project.

I'm not saying this is 100 percent what happened. But I put myself in the place of the caring brother who has watched his sibling soar close to the sun, crash to earth and try to take flight again like a phoenix, only to burn again and again ... What would I do?

We also can look at release timelines. There was a 5-year span between KTSA and BB85 (granted, Dennis died in between), there were 4 years between BB85 and Still Cruisin' (and that wasn't even a full album of new material). So really there were 7 years between BB85 and SIP. Four years after SIP came Stars and Stripes Vol. 1 (which isn't a perfect album, nor even a particularly inspired project, but it didn't require much investment, it followed a similar project with the Eagles, and had the potential to grow into a new market). Less than 2 years after that, Carl was dead.

Maybe the Paley Sessions material would have blossomed after SAS after the band and Brian and Paley woodshedded the material more. Was, in the 50 Sides book, even takes the blame / falls on the sword for telling Carl and the band that he thought the group could come up with better material.

Carl got sick, Carl died, Brian went full into his solo career and that ended the Paley Sessions hopes for a Beach Boys project.

All I'm saying is that I don't think the decision was simple, I don't think the decision was even really made ... no final decree from Carl that this material would never be recorded. I think they were looking for a chance to try something and take the time to make a good original project, but then time ran out for Carl.

Maybe I'm trying to give Carl way too much freedom. But the dude was a beautiful voice, a true musician and had certainly led the group through rough waters ... I don't think he necessarily thought SIP was better than Paley, I think he was trying to be careful and avoid another exploitation circus and maybe actually buy the time for the band to really make something special. It's just that the special project never had the time to happen.

My two cents, worth much less than that in today's economy.

I end with a caveat: I am always wrong. :) So anyone who disagrees, I don't take it personally.

Quote from: luckyoldsmile on March 23, 2020, 05:20:11 PM

It occurs to me that perhaps Carl was weary of the political and interpersonal ramifications of a full album being written by Brian with yet another outsider, and how this could potentially cause more friction within the band, such as with Mike being jealous again. After all, pretty much every other time an outsider was brought in to work with Brian on a BBs album, Mike threw a hissy fit in some way - Pet sounds, smile, TWGMTR, And we have no reason to think that the Paley sessions would have ended any differently.

And if Carl indeed felt that way and had that fear, I imagine it would be less about the artistic merits of the work and more about keeping the peace.

Quote from: luckyoldsmile on March 23, 2020, 05:20:11 PM

As for Carl, the Brian/Paley material, I've thought about this one a lot.

Here's where I land on it ...

I don't think Carl disliked the material. I don't even think he necessarily resented Brian being back in the big chair. And honestly, I don't believe he saw more value in Stars and Stripes, Vol. 1, or in Summer in Paradise, vs. the Paley material.

I think Carl saw a chance of history repeating itself, and this time he said, "That's enough."

From Brian's 1964 breakdown to the Smile meltdown to the 1968 mental disintegration to the Holland struggle to the Brian's Back circus to the "no really, Brian's really back this time" of KTSA, to the return of Landy ... all Carl ever heard was, "Why didn't the band do this, why didn't the band do that, why did Brian get rushed, why was Brian turned back into a performer, why was Brian forced to produce material, why didn't the family stop this, why didn't Carl do XYZ," etc.

Then there was the faux autobiography, the lawsuits, the press, and all anyone could agree on was that things were completely screwed up.

Carl may have seen renewed interest, a new collection of material, Brian at the center and he may have thought to himself, "What if this goes sideways like it has the last twenty years? What if he loses interest and I have to finish the product? What if Brian crashes even harder? What's Brian's mental state? Is he on the right meds? He's smoking again and he's gaining weight, are people going to compare this to 1980-82?"

I think Carl was in a no-win situation. And the only way to basically control the situation and deflect attention on a possible mess was to shut down the project.

I'm not saying this is 100 percent what happened. But I put myself in the place of the caring brother who has watched his sibling soar close to the sun, crash to earth and try to take flight again like a phoenix, only to burn again and again ... What would I do?

We also can look at release timelines. There was a 5-year span between KTSA and BB85 (granted, Dennis died in between), there were 4 years between BB85 and Still Cruisin' (and that wasn't even a full album of new material). So really there were 7 years between BB85 and SIP. Four years after SIP came Stars and Stripes Vol. 1 (which isn't a perfect album, nor even a particularly inspired project, but it didn't require much investment, it followed a similar project with the Eagles, and had the potential to grow into a new market). Less than 2 years after that, Carl was dead.

Maybe the Paley Sessions material would have blossomed after SAS after the band and Brian and Paley woodshedded the material more. Was, in the 50 Sides book, even takes the blame / falls on the sword for telling Carl and the band that he thought the group could come up with better material.

Carl got sick, Carl died, Brian went full into his solo career and that ended the Paley Sessions hopes for a Beach Boys project.

All I'm saying is that I don't think the decision was simple, I don't think the decision was even really made ... no final decree from Carl that this material would never be recorded. I think they were looking for a chance to try something and take the time to make a good original project, but then time ran out for Carl.

Maybe I'm trying to give Carl way too much freedom. But the dude was a beautiful voice, a true musician and had certainly led the group through rough waters ... I don't think he necessarily thought SIP was better than Paley, I think he was trying to be careful and avoid another exploitation circus and maybe actually buy the time for the band to really make something special. It's just that the special project never had the time to happen.

My two cents, worth much less than that in today's economy.

I end with a caveat: I am always wrong. :) So anyone who disagrees, I don't take it personally.

I think that you bring up a lot of good points and are probably basically right.

It's sometimes hard to admit that, as fans, our perspectives on the situation are universes away from the perspectives of the people directly involved. It's easy for us, in the comforts of our homes and with no emotional involvement in the situation, to listen to the SIP material and the Wilson-Paley tracks, and think, "Who in the hell could possibly think that the former was fine but the latter wasn't?" But, as you say, maybe it wasn't about the aesthetics at all. All the Landy drama, conservatorship hearings, etc. still had to have been very fresh in everyone's minds in 1995. From a fan's perspective, we typically see Brian Wilson as this incredible talent who has created mind-blowing music and, who knows, under the right circumstances and with the right people, might do so again. So the idea of Brian working on something new in the studio is pretty much always good news--great news, in fact. On the other hand, Carl's perspective, as a brother and bandmate, had to have been different. There certainly had to have been some ambivalence.

Lately, I've been reading James Murphy's book, "Becoming the Beach Boys, 1961-1963." What really shines through in the early chapters of that book is how singularly focused teenaged Brian Wilson was on becoming a successful popular musician. At 15 or 16, he even visited of the manager of the Four Freshmen, asking advice on how to start a group. So from at least the time Carl was 11 or 12, Brian was focused with great determination on writing songs, performing songs, recording songs... and then he succeeded in a spectacular, unbelievable way. But at what cost? Drugs, mental illness, drama, Landy, Dennis' death, Landy again. If by the mid-'90s, Carl was ambivalent about the whole enterprise, he could certainly have been forgiven for feeling that way.

BTW, the Murphy book has a ton of interesting anecdotes and little factoids, such as an item appearing in the student newspaper of L.A. City College in 1959 about a new addition to the track team, "a cocky redhead" by the name of Mike Love.

Quote from: Tony S on March 23, 2020, 09:36:56 AM

Never thought about that but great point. Brian, in his worst days, outshines ML every time.

As I'm sure everyone is aware, I'm no Mike Love apologist. But Mike on rare occasions has outshone the others, usually because they barely showed up or turned out something truly awful. For instance, Mike's "Cool Head' is probably the best of the three "solo" tracks on the Hallmark "Songs from Here and Back" CD.

"Summer in Paradise" being followed up with a largely ambivalent if not hesitant band largely ignoring the mid-90s Brian/Paley material (and then doing "Stars and Stripes") is truly one of the more head-scratching moments (which is saying something considering there are many such moments in their history).

I think SIP is truly the worst album, with its one main positive being that it serves *very well* to indicate where the band was at creatively and internally at the time.

But Mike, cultivated by the correct person/team (and that person(s) isn't Terry Melcher or Adrian Baker or Michael Lloyd or an of his other recent producers) can bring some stuff worth working on to the table.

While I remain firm that Mike is the one who kept the reunion from continuing, I don't think a well-cultivated 2013 follow-up album to TWGMTR with more Mike involvement would have been all a bad thing.

Quote from: juggler on March 23, 2020, 10:27:28 AM

One note... this reviewer gives ML credit for writing Kokomo, but it's John Phillips' song. Phillips' version was 80% there, while Mike added the "Bermuda Bahama come on pretty mama" bit.

I remember back when SIP was new-ish and the internet was in its infancy, several fans mockingly described the album as "Mike Love's Pet Sounds" or "Mike Love's Smile." And that was sort of true. It was a project with a unified theme ("summer") in which one member (Mike) had free rein to do a whole album consistent with his personal vision.

And, yes, it just boggles the mind that Carl, God rest his soul, apparently thought that the Wilson-Paley songs and Don Was weren't up to the group's standards... while the SIP material apparently was (?!).

While the main bulk of the raw material for "Kokomo" was already there, and while I'm firmly of the mind that further ego-stroking Mike regarding the song is a very bad idea, it's undeniable that Mike and Terry Melcher turned the song from a rando demo with zero hit potential into an actual commercial *song* and *recording*, and certainly that chorus refrain is the linchpin for the song being catchy and successful. Phillips still got writing credit on the song; I don't know if anybody knows the break down on which writers got which amount of points on those royalties. M

I've always said the song should and should have been fondly recalled by band members as a cool curio of a surprise hit from a catchy song that gave the band a nice shot in the arm. Unfortunately, its success coupled with lack of Brian involvement meant Mike would never *stop* talking about the song again.

This "Trainwreckords" YouTube thing is just a fun quick surface-ey overview. The guy doing it clearly is not a huge BB fan. He did enough homework on this and didn't make any huge errors (saying Al was "fired" from the band at the time is not quite accurate, and it's highly unlikely it never sold over a single thousand copies). I'm actually surprised he did a video on this album. He's done several of this "series" of wildly varying eras and styles. Everything from CCR's "Mardi Gras" to Lauryn Hill's "Unplugged 2.0".

I'm actually surprised his SIP episode didn't hone in even *more* on how it's literally the *same single* snare drum sample on almost the entire album.

Quote from: luckyoldsmile on March 23, 2020, 05:20:11 PM

Great observations.

I also have to wonder if Carl was just kind of disinterested in the BB's and maybe he just didn't feel all that great.

Quote from: luckyoldsmile on March 23, 2020, 05:20:11 PM

Mike had complete control over SIP, watch this at 13:34
https://youtu.be/ljsGG3sbEL0

Quote from: c-man on March 24, 2020, 10:33:56 PM

By this time, Carl had another outlet for his own creative impulses, and that was Wilson-Beckley-Lam. I think he pretty much didn't care about new Beach Boys music that much, but was willing to go along with it. Except for the Wilson-Paley material, interestingly enough. I think Carl had decided that music needed to sound "contemporary" to stand a chance of being a hit. While SIP isn't that good, and while Wilson-Beckley-Lam is full of '80-ish production values, I think they both fit what he considered to be "contemporary", whereas the Wilson-Paley stuff didn't. Even though, by the mid-'90s, "contemporary" meant organic and not synthetic (Don Was' production of Bonnie Raitt, for instance), and therefore closer to the Wilson-Paley sound than either SIP or what Wilson-Beckley-Lam was turning out to be, poor Carl didn't yet realize that.

I love Carl, but as you allude to, nobody in the band, including Carl, had much of an idea of what was "contemporary" as far as success on the charts/sales (nor critically for that matter).

I've always felt a lot of Carl's personal baggage with Brian colored Carl's view of the Paley era/material, along with Carl's perplexing lean into Adult Contemporary sounds (ironically close to Joe Thomas's sound on "Imagination"). If the band was looking for a *hit single*, then yeah, "You're Still a Mystery" (nor "Soul Searchin'" for that matter) was going to do that. Nothing was going to do that. What nobody in the band (save for kinda Brian, and even then it was more the collaborators/producers he was working with) realized by the 90s is that their best bet for getting good critical notices and staying relevant as far as *new* music was to *MAKE A GOOD ALBUM*, an album fine tuned to their abilities and sensibilities. McCartney was still hitting #2 with his "Flaming Pie" album in 1997, yet none of his singles in the US or UK were doing much of anything.

One has to wonder what Carl made of either of Brian's 1995 albums, the IJWMFTT soundtrack and "Orange Crate Art." Neither were snagging Grammies, but were much more well-received than anything the BBs had done since some time in the 70s. And more notably, it was Brian being *active* and making new music.

Brian had two albums out in 1995, along with probably *two more albums* worth of material he had done with Andy Paley. Sure, all of these Brian projects had a *lot* of his collaborators in those projects. But he was doing stuff, and *releasing* stuff.

Something weird was going on with Carl, and/or Carl's relationship with Brian, where Carl obliged miming to "Summer of Love" in 1995 on "Baywatch", and only months later was not over the moon to dive into some *real* music that Brian and Paley were bringing in.

I'm not even a HUGE fan of all of the Paley material. But an album of the BBs singing and album's worth of those Paley tracks would have been good. It would have been solid, and possibly *very good*, and would have probably received some good reviews and at least decent album sales. Paley himself said the group were *so good* in the studio that he felt they could have cut the finished album in TWO DAYS.

Quote from: luckyoldsmile on March 23, 2020, 05:20:11 PM

I don't think Carl disliked the material. I don't even think he necessarily resented Brian being back in the big chair. And honestly, I don't believe he saw more value in Stars and Stripes, Vol. 1, or in Summer in Paradise, vs. the Paley material.

I would 50% disagree with each of these assertions. While I don't think any of these issues were a huge deal, nor a pressing concern, I do think Carl had mixed feelings about some elements of those Paley tracks (the most specifics we've heard is that Carl had some issues with the production/recording, specifically the Don Was-produced backing track to "Soul Searchin'" that nobody has ever heard).

I don't think Carl disliked the material, but he didn't like it enough to make any reported effort to help make it happen.

I don't know if he saw more value specifically with the S&S album, but he certainly participated and agreed to its release. Same with SIP. He was, at the very least, giving his tacit approval to these projects creatively (and giving literal approval legally).

Quote from: luckyoldsmile on March 23, 2020, 05:20:11 PM

I think Carl saw a chance of history repeating itself, and this time he said, "That's enough."

From Brian's 1964 breakdown to the Smile meltdown to the 1968 mental disintegration to the Holland struggle to the Brian's Back circus to the "no really, Brian's really back this time" of KTSA, to the return of Landy ... all Carl ever heard was, "Why didn't the band do this, why didn't the band do that, why did Brian get rushed, why was Brian turned back into a performer, why was Brian forced to produce material, why didn't the family stop this, why didn't Carl do XYZ," etc.

Then there was the faux autobiography, the lawsuits, the press, and all anyone could agree on was that things were completely screwed up.

Carl may have seen renewed interest, a new collection of material, Brian at the center and he may have thought to himself, "What if this goes sideways like it has the last twenty years? What if he loses interest and I have to finish the product? What if Brian crashes even harder? What's Brian's mental state? Is he on the right meds? He's smoking again and he's gaining weight, are people going to compare this to 1980-82?"

I think Carl was in a no-win situation. And the only way to basically control the situation and deflect attention on a possible mess was to shut down the project.

I think the issue of fearing Brian tapping out could have been a real issue, but if Carl really felt this way, he would have had to go out of his way to ignore a lot of evidence to the contrary. Unlike the late 70s, the stuff Brian was doing in the mid-90s had *several* additional collaborators/producers/fixers involved. Both Andy Paley and Don Was were there at those group sessions in 1995 for "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still A Mystery." Was clearly was ready to do a BB album, and was literally on board as either producer or co-producer. There was very little chance of a literal breaking down of those sessions. Brian and Paley had already written and cut around two album's worth of material. Carl had 20+ songs partially or fully finished, *two* producers backing up Brian, and a group that could easily cut vocals in short order. I'm not saying Carl was the only impediment. It was obviously much more complicated. But it's also worth pointing out that by the end of 1995, Brian had cut two full albums.

So, a Brian Wilson capable of singing and arranging *all* the vocals on something like the "Orange Crate Art" album, coupled with a huge bag of songs, a solid facilitator in Andy Paley, a then pretty hot producer in the form of Don Was, and a group with nothing else to do, all suggested that a Beach Boys album with that material had little chance of being a disaster if the band members had put any weight behind it.

Quote from: juggler on March 25, 2020, 03:27:21 PM

Since we're on this subject, the library here has a pretty good timeline of the events of the 1994-96 period...
http://smileysmile.net/OLDlibrary/timeline.html

One thing that's pretty interesting about that period, according to the words of Don, Brian and Mike Love at the time, Mike seems to have been fully on board and enthusiastic about working with Brian and Don Was on a Beach Boys project.

I'm going to assume that Mike being enthusiastic or not about a project probably has much to do with whether he is treated in the manner that he deems respectful enough for his standards, and if he is promised a certain amount of input (or not). Frankly, I think there would have to be a certain amount of brown nosing involved. I'm sure that's true with many famous musicians of course, but I think it would particularly be true with Mike who has a chip on his shoulder. There's a whole lot of history here, and Mike certainly seems to have triggers.

No idea if Was might've floated a certain amount of collaboration promises or seemed to show interest - genuine or feigned - for Mike's ideas, but I would imagine any producer or collaborator who was outwardly mainly focused on Brian would perhaps not be considered someone Mike would prefer to work with in that type of situation.

At various times in the history of this band, the band was more of a Brian Wilson solo project with the other members contributing much less in a creative capacity, and at other times it was much more of a more fully involved thing with everyone contributing creatively. Much like what happened with the actual eventual reunion album in 2012, I'm sure the only way to get on the good side of Mike would have been to initially - at least with promises- placate whatever demands he had, and it seems to me those demands would have been for some level of collaboration that suited him. He wasn't going to go with feeling pushed aside again. Which sadly, of course, could've been at the expense of untold amounts of great music never being recorded.

I don't know where Was' documentary about Brian fits in with this timeline, either.

But Mike obviously had/has lots of baggage of feeling pushed aside, so I'm sure it would be very easy for someone from the outside to rub him the wrong way. On the other hand, someone who maybe realized this going in, and presented themselves in a manner that would've been more to his liking could make him give the green light.

Maybe that's just what Joe did years later.

Even if the presentation was more smoke and mirrors, I would equate a producer having preliminary talk with bandmembers as somewhat of a job interview. Maybe some promises were made that were never meant to be fulfilled. We can only guess about how a Was BBs album was floated to Mike and Brian, but I tend to think it would've been somewhat as I've described above.

Quote from: Pablo. on March 26, 2020, 01:26:53 PM

Quote from: HeyJude on March 25, 2020, 02:46:05 PM

So, a Brian Wilson capable of singing and arranging *all* the vocals on something like the "Orange Crate Art" album, coupled with a huge bag of songs, a solid facilitator in Andy Paley, a then pretty hot producer in the form of Don Was, and a group with nothing else to do, all suggested that a Beach Boys album with that material had little chance of being a disaster if the band members had put any weight behind it.

Not to be picky about it, but OCA's vocals arrangements were written by Van Dyke himself, at last that was the case with the title song. BTW, Van Dyke is working with Omnivore Records on a reissue of OCA with bonus tracks, but not alternate takes by Brian, AFIK.

I went back and forth with this with someone awhile aback, I'm not sure if it was you. I have to disagree, insofar as what I consider to be "vocal arrangements." I don't buy that Van Dyke either sang or notated all of those vocal parts for every song on OCA.

I'd certainly buy that they co-arranged those vocals. I don't think VDP just threw solo vocal demos at Brian and Brian took it from there. But I don't think VDP has the vocal prowess or ability to either record all those multi-part harmonies on a demo or to dictate every part of those harmonies directly to Brian from beginning to end.

I'm not super familiar with VDP's recorded work, so if someone knows of an album where VDP sang all the parts of a 5 or 6-part harmony stack, I'd be interested to hear that. My recollection is that VDP, as I believe he has alluded to himself, is not a virtuoso vocalist. I've listened to some of his solo shows. He can sing in tune, but that's about it. Certainly cool to hear him sing the stuff that he wrote.

I think VDP's lead melody lines on OCA certainly dictate where some of those vocal stacks would go. In some cases, Brian is just stacking stuff above and below a lead melody line. But in other cases, some of those arrangements have a lot of syncopated, sort of jutting interjection bits and whatnot, and some of that stuff I think is much more likely to have been introduced and/or refined by Brian. And in some cases the vocals soar all over the place, and again some if not most or all of that had to have come from Brian.

Unless there is evidence VDP notated on paper every part of every vocal stack on every song (in which case, could Brian even read that, and is that how he has ever worked?), or that he produced demos with all those parts, or strong evidence he stood beside Brian and dictated every part of every vocal stack, I think at the very least that would warrant a co-arranger credit on the vocals for Brian.

Make no mistake, I love OCA (much more than when it came out). I'm not a huge fan of the lyrics (the style is fine; I'm just not a fan of that particular subject matter, that romanticizing of upper-middle class/upper-class pre-60s whimsy), but the songs are great and Brian's vocals are great. It's interesting to hear Brian sing someone else's songs. It's a highly underrated album. And, VDP likely had to crack the whip to get Brian to do it. But once he was there, Brian had to have dictated some of those vocal arrangements.

No, Hey Jude, I wasn't the one you discussed this issue. Last year I was very lucky to do a very long interview with Van Dyke (I'm a huge admirer, I felt like talking to Mark Twain) , and I was just checking my transcription, and yes, he told me he did all the vocal arrangements for the album, dictating every part to Brian, line by line. Don't forget Van Dyke was a choirboy, even singing at Carnegie Hall, but that wasn't really necesary for him to do the arrangements: he's a master at that, so to him is the same writing for vocals or strings or horns. But I guess he didn't have to sing every part to Brian, much less make him read sheet music: Van Dyke could have played each part on the piano. He told me that on the OCA song it took Brian three hours to record a doubled five voices. That recollection matches the memories of one of the engineers for the album on an audio forum (can't find the quote now), who said there were a lot of composites (that is, splicing different takes) and time spent on getting Brian's vocals right.

As for the bonus, I've heard a backing track for Hold Back Time, and he told me there will be different mixes, but he's not sure if there's a version of Our Love is Here To Stay, as it has been reported.

Anyway, the published interview is in Spanish, but I suppose you could get a reasonably decent translation with Chrome. It's very long, covering all his career and his great album with Gaby Moreno, but there's some interesting things about Smile, including his idea for an animated feature (!), the Cabinessence argument with Mike Love and the state of his relationship with Brian.

https://laagenda.buenosaires.gob.ar/post/190392418770/m%C3%BAsica-el-amigo-americano

I finally got around to watching this video after forgetting about it for months. I saw one of his other one hit wonder videos on "You Get What You Give" by Gregg Alexander/New Radicals and then the Summer In Paradise video came up in the queue. I have to say he was pretty much on-point in his commentary. He's pretty much saying what would seem to be a large majority of fans have said about the SIP album and Mike's leadership of the band during that era. It was a sh*t show for fans who were deeply invested in the music. He was maybe too young when SIP came out, or just wasn't invested, but as I've said many times here and elsewhere, living through this at a time when my own interest in the music was close to a fever pitch was literally like Jekyll and Hyde. You had lingering hype from the Pet Sounds CD reissue still continuing, you had the GV box set blowing minds with the first sizeable chunk of Smile music being released for the first time with the band's blessings, and then you had Mike's vision of what the band should be...and it was ridiculous. It's still very hard to square up what you could hear on the box set and then pick up the "new" album from the same band at the same store from the same bin.

And as the commentator mentions in the video, just when you thought it was over, a few years later after news of a newly free-of-Landy Brian and Mike writing new material together and the band getting back together to make music including a tie-in with a Baywatch spin-off...Mike has the band clowning through an embarrassing episode of Baywatch where the featured song is "Summer Of Love" with Mike rapping and surrounded by bikini babes. Still one of the most absurd decisions and appearances...but enough has been said about that.

I'm glad the commentator dug a little deeper to reveal some of those inconvenient facts that got left out of Mike's book and whitewashed or dismissed by some of his more ardent supporters and defenders, such as Mike's PMRC/Tipper Gore seed money donation and pretty much the whole of Summer In Paradise's creation and failure. It's funny how these things can be conveniently whitewashed or dismissed outright when they don't fit a narrative. And it surprised me that he mentioned something in passing about those "commissioned" by Mike to promote and defend.

What struck me too was another video he posted on Creedence Clearwater Revival's album "Mardi Gras", and the conflicts within the band that led to that album being what it eventually became with far less Fogerty and more of a "group effort".

Sound familiar? I had never connected those dots but there is a parallel between the Beach Boys circa late 60's and CCR early 70's. CCR was easily near the top at the time of most successful and consistent American bands, a spot previously held by The Beach Boys. Both had one figure - John Fogerty and Brian Wilson - who was the go-to guy in terms of the music and making the records. Fogerty himself was and is a fan of Brian's...and it's no wonder in one regard that both men pretty much did most of the writing, arranging, producing, recording of the music and in Fogerty's case he handled other aspects too.

Then the band members started to balk a bit at being seen as second-stringers or puppets when various articles told the fans how this music was made in the studio. CCR is *still* in conflict among surviving members in terms of what exactly went down, as the guy describes in his commentary for Mardi Gras, but it sounded a lot like what Marilyn said in the BW documentary happened with the Beach Boys and Brian. If you guys don't like what I'm doing or how it's being done, do it yourselves! And as Mardi Gras shows, the well of non-Fogerty material was dry. And it took the other Beach Boys several years to really develop what they needed to string together a full album not reliant on Brian as the main go-to guy, with some members simply not having the skills to do a fraction of what Brian did in terms of writing and producing consistent material to sustain albums.

I thought that was an interesting comparison that the commentator may have noticed after the fact, but it was staring us in the face all these years how these were two of the biggest and most successful American bands of that era, where their classic hit-making years were pretty much dependent on one guy running the show and cranking out hit after hit for a few years, and then both come down to a band conflict where that one guy says a version of "you guys don't like it, do it yourself" and in CCR's case it was one of the last nails in the CCR coffin.

I'd definitely recommend watching the SIP commentary alongside the Mardi Gras commentary, they're pretty well done videos as are quite a few of his other postings on his YouTube channel.

Quote from: guitarfool2002 on June 24, 2020, 09:29:48 AM

I thought that was an interesting comparison that the commentator may have noticed after the fact, but it was staring us in the face all these years how these were two of the biggest and most successful American bands of that era, where their classic hit-making years were pretty much dependent on one guy running the show and cranking out hit after hit for a few years, and then both come down to a band conflict where that one guy says a version of "you guys don't like it, do it yourself" and in CCR's case it was one of the last nails in the CCR coffin.

I mentioned in a CCR thread in the "General music"-section a couple of weeks back, that it is so impressive to see with what and how much both Brian and Fogerty came up within just a couple of years. They both must have written constantly. Look at Brian's output with the Beach Boys in '63-'65, then add to that all the stuff he wrote and produced for other artists and also his collaborations with Jan&Dean. The man must have breathed music during these years. Absolutely incredible! Same with John and CCR, who had unfortunately only a very short run (as far as being an active unit). Only a couple of years but what a track record!

Quote from: Rocker on June 24, 2020, 09:44:45 AM

Quote from: guitarfool2002 on June 24, 2020, 09:29:48 AM

I agree 100%, and in both cases I think the sheer amount of hard work and emotional/physical investment these two musicians put into making their bands so successful is a part of both stories that is not discussed or praised enough! In both cases the amount of sheer hard work these guys did, and the amount of success they had not to mention making a lot of people wealthy in the process is staggering. We live in an era where bands take over 5 years or more in some cases to release new material, and here were two guys in their early 20's cranking out hit after hit every few months and cranking out sometimes 2 albums per year...It's one of the aspects of this music that gets overlooked and under-heralded when you realize in both cases it mostly came down to one guy doing the majority of the work necessary to have that success and make those kinds of consistently good records that stood out on the radio from thousands of others. As you said, what a track record in a relatively short amount of time!

So when people make comments about Brian not doing work or loafing or staying in bed collecting royalty checks, or if I see commentary about Fogerty being too much of a tyrant with his band and then taking too many years off not recording...they earned every second of their time after those initial runs. They were doing the work alone which some artists have literal teams and offices full of staff to do for them.

i want to take issue with the idea that "the band didn't like what Brian was doing, so they told him to step aside so they could do it themselves". So at what point exactly did this occur? Traditionally, we were taught that this happened during the Smile sessions, so the group took over and gave us Smiley Smile, Wild Honey and Friends. Yet whose handprints are all over those three albums? Rather than Brian being pushed aside by the villain, Mike Love, or another band member, it seems to me that after Friends, Brian was less interested in running the studio side of things, so the guys were forced to pick up the slack. And i think they did wonderfully in that role. I was playing Holland in the car yesterday, and just thinking about that album continues to improve with age. I believe the group always encouraged whatever participation Brian could muster.
CCR is a whole nother story. If you believe John's version, the other guys were begging to contribute to the writing and singing on the albums; if you believe Stu and Doug's version, they merely wanted input into the running of the band. The one guy who really should have been allowed to contribute singing and writing was Tom, but he chose to leave instead. Creedence always had cover tunes on their albums (Pendulum being the exception); what would it have hurt to have Tom sing La Bamba on an album? Do yourselves a favor, listen to some of his solo stuff and then tell me the man couldn't sing! But with John it was "my way or the highway"; having the lion's share of credit for the success of CCR wasn't enough for him; he had to have Total Control.

Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 24, 2020, 12:57:16 PM

i want to take issue with the idea that "the band didn't like what Brian was doing, so they told him to step aside so they could do it themselves". So at what point exactly did this occur? Traditionally, we were taught that this happened during the Smile sessions, so the group took over and gave us Smiley Smile, Wild Honey and Friends. Yet whose handprints are all over those three albums? Rather than Brian being pushed aside by the villain, Mike Love, or another band member, it seems to me that after Friends, Brian was less interested in running the studio side of things, so the guys were forced to pick up the slack. And i think they did wonderfully in that role. I was playing Holland in the car yesterday, and just thinking about that album continues to improve with age. I believe the group always encouraged whatever participation Brian could muster.

Could you quote the exact post that made this assertion? The only thing I can find that closely resembles the quote you shared is Guitarfool stating "it sounded a lot like what Marilyn said in the BW documentary happened with the Beach Boys and Brian. If you guys don't like what I'm doing or how it's being done, do it yourselves!" which is the complete opposite of what your quote suggests. That being said, maybe I just can't find the quote you're referring to, but if you wouldn't mind pointing it out so we can have some context I would be grateful.

Quote from: The Nearest Faraway Place on June 24, 2020, 02:30:47 PM

Except that you're forgetting that Brian was actively trying to get Carl more involved. It started in the middle of the Smile Sessions, with stuff like Tune X.
Brian was really trying to move Carl to more of a producer leader role, and it really started to take off around the Smiley Smile / Wild honey days.
Let's not forget that Brian was the person who decided to change the producer credit to "The Beach Boys."
Brian simply wanted to loosen his power over the group.
From Dennis in 1976: "If anyone from the group wanted to produce something, they could come down and do anything they wanted to. They could put it out on their own, or if somebody wrote a song and wanted to put it on the album, they could. That game was not played with this group. the group would prefer to have Brian do it all, to write, because we love his music, only because we love his music, not because there's a lack of talent or a weakness. Its just that we really love his music."
The real power struggle didn't come until the MIU days.

Except that you're forgetting that Brian was actively trying to get Carl more involved. It started in the middle of the Smile Sessions, with stuff like Tune X.

I'm not forgetting that at all, in fact I've written enough about that topic to fill a few chapters over the past 20 years or so. It wasn't only Carl, Brian was mentoring Dennis too in both production and songwriting. It didn't flourish until a few years after those initial attempts around Smile. He wanted them to start making music on their own, and a big part of that was the plans for Brother Records to be set up to allow and encourage the band members to do this with other acts. But around the time of SS/WH/Friends they simply didn't have the skills to pick up that much of the weight for The Beach Boys, and that's a main reason why Brian was so involved in those records. Carl didn't actually write a fully realized song until the early 70's.

Brian was really trying to move Carl to more of a producer leader role, and it really started to take off around the Smiley Smile / Wild honey days.

Brian may have wanted Carl to move into this role, but as of Smiley Smile and Wild Honey Carl simply wasn't there in terms of skills and ability to make an entire album or produce hit records. He soon did assume that role, but not as of 1967. I don't know where that kind of information that Carl "took off" during this era comes from because it's just not true, and the proof is in the music from '67 into '68 and the way it was written and recorded. Carl was simply not as active as you're suggesting.

Let's not forget that Brian was the person who decided to change the producer credit to "The Beach Boys."

See the comments from Marilyn Wilson in an upcoming reply for more on this. And who changed the credit means little in terms of the bigger picture as far as who was actually doing the work when that credit first appeared. It could be called an appeasement as well as an unloading of bad feelings combined with guilt if you believe what his ex-wife said about this.

Brian simply wanted to loosen his power over the group.

What is the source of this claim? Loosening his power suggests something other than Brian stepping back, quitting the production race, and letting the other guys pick up the load for the reasons he did. I highly doubt it was a case of Brian saying "Guys, I really feel bad about being the guy in charge and exerting all this power over you, so I'm bowing out."

From Dennis in 1976: "If anyone from the group wanted to produce something, they could come down and do anything they wanted to. They could put it out on their own, or if somebody wrote a song and wanted to put it on the album, they could. That game was not played with this group. the group would prefer to have Brian do it all, to write, because we love his music, only because we love his music, not because there's a lack of talent or a weakness. Its just that we really love his music."

1976 was a much different scene with different players and parameters than it was in 1967. Dennis' quote sounds exactly like the situation was in the mid 70's with the group. But it's not relevant to the period originally mentioned. For a variety of reasons, too.

The real power struggle didn't come until the MIU days.

Again, what is the basis for this? There were power struggles throughout the 70's that led to band members and various staff being hired and fired, and band members trying to get a leg up on the others by certain hirings and firings that included everyone from Nick Grillo to Jack Reiley to Steve Love, and that's just on the management side. And according to Jack, some of those power struggles involved the music as well as certain band members wanting to be considered "the boss" over others who were actually in that role, at least musically.

Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 24, 2020, 12:57:16 PM

Quote from: rab2591 on June 24, 2020, 01:33:55 PM

Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 24, 2020, 12:57:16 PM

Exactly right, Rab: However Lonely Summer managed to twist that quote into a pretzel, it's nothing at all like what I originally said nor is it even close to what Marilyn said in the documentary. So I'd also like to know where such a quote came from because it is nothing from this discussion.

As far as CCR, I already spelled out a lot of my own takes and opinions on it, but to carry it further and address Lonely Summer's points: Ultimately it cannot be argued based on the success of that band that John Fogerty's methods were right, and it made the band a success whose hits - any number of them - are still heard on a daily basis. This whole thing about Fogerty wanting "total control", well, he was the producer! He wrote and sang lead on the songs! It was as much his signature sound for the band that made them CCR and made them a unique successful band with a signature sound! In this way it does remind me of Brian and some of the battles he had with the Beach Boys...if Brian or Fogerty were delivering flop after flop, then yeah the "other" band members would have a point. But look at their legacies, The Beach Boys and CCR are still in the upper echelon of most successful bands from the 60's. Was Fogerty wrong to tell Stu what to do on bass or to suggest a drum groove for Doug to play? Hell no! Fogerty made hit records just like Brian did.

And in terms of the other band members, they have a right to feel hurt by what they thought was their leader dominating them and taking full control...but what did they have to offer? We heard it on Mardi Gras, and to put it bluntly, it's pretty shitty music. To go from Have You Ever Seen The Rain and Born On The Bayou and Proud Mary to the tracks Stu and Doug wrote and sang on Mardi Gras is equivalent to someone playing the Endless Summer or Sounds Of Summer album and then playing Summer In Paradise. It's so obvious to hear.

Both Fogerty and Brian were the geese laying the golden eggs for those eras of their respective bands. If the other guys had a bee in their bonnets over control issues, while the hits were coming out one after the other, they'd have a hard time proving they were anything but whiners and complainers as they enjoyed being rock and pop stars. Blunt, yes, but that's my take. If they could do it better, at that time, where were the goods?

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