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Author Topic: Feel Flows box set  (Read 54943 times)
William Bowe
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« Reply #450 on: March 06, 2020, 10:45:33 PM »

My feeling is that the surviving BBs are a lot less interested in what goes on these releases than we are.
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Jim V.
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« Reply #451 on: March 07, 2020, 10:13:21 AM »

My feeling is that the surviving BBs are a lot less interested in what goes on these releases than we are.

Of course. I'd say nearly for sure. And I'd say the same for perhaps Bob Dylan and his Bootleg Series. Of all the major artists involved with their archival projects, I'd probably say maybe Pete Townshend is one of the few that would be super hands on. And maybe Mick Jagger with the Stones (at least Exile and Some Girls) as he actually went in and finished previously unfinished stuff for those projects re-issues.
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« Reply #452 on: March 07, 2020, 11:14:09 AM »

My feeling is that the surviving BBs are a lot less interested in what goes on these releases than we are.

Of course. I'd say nearly for sure. And I'd say the same for perhaps Bob Dylan and his Bootleg Series. Of all the major artists involved with their archival projects, I'd probably say maybe Pete Townshend is one of the few that would be super hands on. And maybe Mick Jagger with the Stones (at least Exile and Some Girls) as he actually went in and finished previously unfinished stuff for those projects re-issues.

So did Mike for "Made in California" I believe ("Going to the beach"). But I agree with you guys.
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« Reply #453 on: March 07, 2020, 12:02:22 PM »

I recall an interview in the early 1990s when Mike was asked about the Capitol two-fer CDs, and he said he barely even knew about them.

ETA: That turns out to have been an understatement. The interview is here: http://troun.tripod.com/mikelove.html.


« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 12:06:59 PM by William Bowe » Logged
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« Reply #454 on: March 07, 2020, 05:13:18 PM »

My feeling is that the surviving BBs are a lot less interested in what goes on these releases than we are.

Of course. I'd say nearly for sure. And I'd say the same for perhaps Bob Dylan and his Bootleg Series. Of all the major artists involved with their archival projects, I'd probably say maybe Pete Townshend is one of the few that would be super hands on. And maybe Mick Jagger with the Stones (at least Exile and Some Girls) as he actually went in and finished previously unfinished stuff for those projects re-issues.

I raise you one Neil Young
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took me a while to understand what was going on in this thread. mainly because i thought that veggie was a bokchoy
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« Reply #455 on: March 08, 2020, 01:36:44 PM »

So did Mike for "Made in California" I believe ("Going to the beach"). But I agree with you guys.

They (Al?) updated Loop De Loop for Endless Harmony too as I recall.
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« Reply #456 on: March 08, 2020, 04:00:59 PM »

So did Mike for "Made in California" I believe ("Going to the beach"). But I agree with you guys.

They (Al?) updated Loop De Loop for Endless Harmony too as I recall.

Yes, Al.

Why did Mike have Scott Totten overdub “Goin’ to the Beach.” This may be a stupid comparison I could fix from carefully A/B’ing the two versions, but  the solo is Scott Totten and not Carl, correct? (sadly)
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« Reply #457 on: March 08, 2020, 05:05:18 PM »

So did Mike for "Made in California" I believe ("Going to the beach"). But I agree with you guys.

They (Al?) updated Loop De Loop for Endless Harmony too as I recall.

Yes, Al.

Why did Mike have Scott Totten overdub “Goin’ to the Beach.” This may be a stupid comparison I could fix from carefully A/B’ing the two versions, but  the solo is Scott Totten and not Carl, correct? (sadly)

Yes - and I assume that's because there was no solo recorded for the track in '79/'80. Carl played both bass and rhythm guitar on the song, drummer Scott Mathews says he also played bass on it (there are actually no less than three bass tracks on the recording), and Al also laid down a rhythm guitar track. So, lots of guitars there!
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« Reply #458 on: March 09, 2020, 07:53:15 AM »

Lazy Lizzie?
In a world with Hey Little Tomboy and Roller Skating Child, Lazy Lizzie isn’t that bad.
The reason Carry Me Home wasn’t released was because of Dennis’s Lyrics hit a little too close to home for some members, my guess is Brian

Well, it's probably not particularly constructive to debate whether "Lazy Lizzie" is more offensive or creepy than those other songs. Yes, all three songs form a trio of songs that, despite Brian writing them from a presumably innocent point of view, are undeniably creepy given the full context of who is singing the songs, the ages of those writing and singing, etc.

The issue with "Lazy Lizzie" versus the other two songs is that the other two songs were released over 40 years ago and currently reside quietly on relatively obscure BB albums.

"Lazy Lizzie", if it were released, would be on a relatively low-key archival release. But the difference is that, again whether one agrees or disagrees with it, offense and controversy re-emerge due to some sort of impetus. That usually comes when something new is put out on the marketplace. So if "Hey Little Tomboy" were to be included on some new hits compilation that got a lot of attention (yes, I know there's no reason that would happen, but let's imagine it did), it might garner new attention it hasn't in the past and, not for the first time, something that has existed for half a century that was *just as potentially offensive* 20 years ago as it is now, could all of a sudden be deemed in 2020 to be offensive and ignite a backlash.

Believe me, I've wondered for a number of years in the age of social media outrage (again, whether one agrees with it or not; I imagine a lot of us view it as sometimes being justified, sometimes not) about whether some random clickbait writer will spew out some story about "Hey Little Tomboy" and bring it to the attention of a non-fan audience that just waits around for something to be offended by.

And, to be honest, while a huge controversy or calling into question the character of Brian or any of the band members is something I think would be far too excessive, I don't think a calm, respectful analysis of these songs that includes pointing out that they are and maybe always were kind of weird/creepy/inappropriate would be out of line. The problem is that such a piece will not be written for mainstream consumption. It will be written to "catch" Brian and the band 87 years after the fact, and it will be written by a non-fan, someone who isn't familiar enough with Brian to know that his deal in that era was writing these songs from an innocent, juvenile point of view.

I said I wasn't going to parse these songs too much, but I would say that while the argument can always be made that these songs are written from the point of view of someone of an age appropriate to be socializing with the subjects of the songs, "Lazy Lizzie" sounds kind of creepy and predatory even if the "narrator" of the song is of the same age.

Again, to be very clear, I'm a fan and scholar of the band, and I have a brain that can reason, and I can put all of this stuff in context, and I'm very aware that these songs are more curiosities than something to be alarmed about. I have no problem calling them creepy and maybe sexist/offensive, etc. That doesn't make me think Brian or the guys are bad people. There are just these hand full of songs that have a clear creepy vibe despite the writer/performer intentions. I think it's insulting someone's intelligence to deny that, *on the surface*, a then-35-ish-year-old man singing about following a high school girl around as she walks home from school seems inappropriate/creepy, etc. Again, once one knows Brian's deal and where his head was at, and the astonishing level of innocence he wrote with, and the degree to which he was closed off from a lot of modern sensibilities (whether they be social norms or musical styles/subjects), it's easy to understand the clear innocence with which these weird songs were written.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 07:56:54 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #459 on: March 09, 2020, 08:58:46 AM »

Lazy Lizzie I would imagine could be skipped over (and should be, to tell you the truth), because I think there's very little musically new about that song to have to secure a copyright for. The choruses are literally a copy/paste of the choruses of the already-released "Better Get Back in Bed", while the verses offer just a smidge of a new melody, and not a very good one at that. I would imagine if the copyright question ever comes up for this song, they might just skip it entirely for content reasons.

Due to so much of the song being simply recycled from another song in a significant way, I almost view "Better Get Back in Bed"/"Lazy Lizzie" as a "Land Ahoy"/"Cherry, Cherry Coupe" type of situation, as opposed to "Lazy Lizzie" really being its own independent, proper song. I think "Lazy Lizzie" is perhaps the saddest commentary on Brian's mental/emotional state in the late '70s.

To my ears, he was just creatively and emotionally spent and didn't give two f*cks about songwriting. It sounds like someone told him to write a song, and he churned this out to simply cause the request for a song to be placated. I hear not an ounce of Brian's heart or creativity in this song. If there was a textbook example of a song being written while Brian was not a well man, this would be exhibit A. One of the few Brian songs I can say I'd be fine if it never existed. I'm a big, big fan of Love You, despite its weirdness, as well as of other unreleased odd Brian demos from this time... but this track is a hard pass for me.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 09:02:58 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #460 on: March 09, 2020, 09:10:05 AM »

"Lazy Lizzie" is undoubtedly an interesting, intriguing insight into Brian and his writing. Even the weird, repetitive, sometimes mundane stuff is interesting in terms of where his head was at and where he was at musically. The fact that he so rarely was trying to copy contemporary pop/rock styles/trends during that time frame is fascinating.

That he knowingly or unknowingly was working that same "Better Get Back in Bed" vibe, and frankly a somewhat similar riff/vibe to "Shortenin' Bread", etc. is undeniably interesting.

Not releasing it officially would be down to mainly a question of whether it's tasteful (and/or would elicit some sort of bad PR/backlash, and whether that risk is worth it for such a song), and also whether it's deemed to be among the higher quality outtakes. Neither of those factors seem to make it more likely to see release. The fact that it has circulated widely in at least okay-ish sound quality perhaps also makes it less *needed* as a release (and it has also, from what I can tell, much more selectively circulated in much better, virtually pristine quality).

In any event, they'd presumably have until 2026/2027 to decide. Whatever happens, I certainly wouldn't bet a bunch of money we'll see "Lazy Lizzie" officially released any time soon.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 09:14:21 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #461 on: March 09, 2020, 09:17:07 AM »

"Lazy Lizzie" is undoubtedly an interesting, intriguing insight into Brian and his writing. Even the weird, repetitive, sometimes mundane stuff is interesting in terms of where his head was at and where he was at musically. The fact that he so rarely was trying to copy contemporary pop/rock styles/trends during that time frame is fascinating.

That he knowingly or unknowingly was working that same "Better Get Back in Bed" vibe, and frankly a somewhat similar riff/vibe to "Shortenin' Bread", etc. is undeniably interesting.

Not releasing it officially would be down to mainly a question of whether it's tasteful (and/or would elicit some sort of bad PR/backlash, and whether that risk is worth it for such a song). The fact that it has circulated widely in at least okay-ish sound quality perhaps also makes it less *needed* as a release (and it has also, from what I can tell, much more selectively circulated in much better, virtually pristine quality).

In any event, they'd presumably have until 2026/2027 to decide. Whatever happens, I certainly wouldn't bet a bunch of money we'll see "Lazy Lizzie" officially released any time soon.

Because of the era we live in, where clickbait sites are salivating to make a story out of nothing (or next to nothing), I feel literally 100% confident this song will never, ever be officially released. I think if we were to go through all of the least likely candidates for BBs songs *ever* getting official release, this might rank dead last for those reasons.

If the band could wave a magic wand and make other released songs from their catalog simply go away and never exist, I think Hey Little Tomboy would be #1 on that list, followed by the entire Summer in Paradise album that Mike seems embarrassed by at this point (maybe simply because it flopped so hard, because he'd probably be singing its praises had the thing sold). I would not doubt that there might have at one point in the early 70s been internal discussions of it was possible to delete Never Learn Not to Love from future pressings of 20/20. Glad they never went with that Streisand Effect measure.

And maybe the Heroes and Villains version where Mike (apparently at Brian's behest?) spoken word talks over the music about their latest music being a nuclear bomb... that would also be near the very bottom of the list of song versions that would ever get released officially, for obvious reasons.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 09:18:07 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #462 on: March 09, 2020, 09:17:41 AM »

Lazy Lizzie I would imagine could be skipped over (and should be, to tell you the truth), because I think there's very little musically new about that song to have to secure a copyright for. The choruses are literally a copy/paste of the choruses of the already-released "Better Get Back in Bed", while the verses offer just a smidge of a new melody, and not a very good one at that. I would imagine if the copyright question ever comes up for this song, they might just skip it entirely for content reasons.

Due to so much of the song being simply recycled from another song in a significant way, I almost view "Better Get Back in Bed"/"Lazy Lizzie" as a "Land Ahoy"/"Cherry, Cherry Coupe" type of situation, as opposed to "Lazy Lizzie" really being its own independent, proper song. I think "Lazy Lizzie" is perhaps the saddest commentary on Brian's mental/emotional state in the late '70s.

To my ears, he was just creatively and emotionally spent and didn't give two f*cks about songwriting. It sounds like someone told him to write a song, and he churned this out to simply cause the request for a song to be placated. I hear not an ounce of Brian's heart or creativity in this song. If there was a textbook example of a song being written while Brian was not a well man, this would be exhibit A. One of the few Brian songs I can say I'd be fine if it never existed. I'm a big, big fan of Love You, despite its weirdness, as well as of other unreleased odd Brian demos from this time... but this track is a hard pass for me.

I disagree - to my ears, "Lizzie" is an example of '76 Brian doing whatever the heck he wanted to, commercial or not. The fact that it recycles old rhythms or melodies in not unusual for BW, and I actually DO hear lot of his heart and creativity in this one! It's different, it's joyous, and it's playful - creepy lyrics aside.
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« Reply #463 on: March 09, 2020, 09:20:41 AM »

Lazy Lizzie I would imagine could be skipped over (and should be, to tell you the truth), because I think there's very little musically new about that song to have to secure a copyright for. The choruses are literally a copy/paste of the choruses of the already-released "Better Get Back in Bed", while the verses offer just a smidge of a new melody, and not a very good one at that. I would imagine if the copyright question ever comes up for this song, they might just skip it entirely for content reasons.

Due to so much of the song being simply recycled from another song in a significant way, I almost view "Better Get Back in Bed"/"Lazy Lizzie" as a "Land Ahoy"/"Cherry, Cherry Coupe" type of situation, as opposed to "Lazy Lizzie" really being its own independent, proper song. I think "Lazy Lizzie" is perhaps the saddest commentary on Brian's mental/emotional state in the late '70s.

To my ears, he was just creatively and emotionally spent and didn't give two f*cks about songwriting. It sounds like someone told him to write a song, and he churned this out to simply cause the request for a song to be placated. I hear not an ounce of Brian's heart or creativity in this song. If there was a textbook example of a song being written while Brian was not a well man, this would be exhibit A. One of the few Brian songs I can say I'd be fine if it never existed. I'm a big, big fan of Love You, despite its weirdness, as well as of other unreleased odd Brian demos from this time... but this track is a hard pass for me.

I disagree - to my ears, "Lizzie" is an example of '76 Brian doing whatever the heck he wanted to, commercial or not. The fact that it recycles old rhythms or melodies in not unusual for BW, and I actually DO hear lot of his heart and creativity in this one! It's different, it's joyous, and it's playful - creepy lyrics aside.

Sometimes I'm cool with Brian recycling old melodies - he has certainly done it plenty of times! For some reason, I just hear creative atrophy when I listen to this particular song, more so than virtually any song by Brian from this time period. Yet we know he had way, way more great music in him, just around the corner.

IMHO, I just think this sounds like what a song would sound like if Brian was given a demand to write a song in 20 minutes, at a moment where he wasn't feeling creative inspiration. I suppose it's possible that if I heard the raw, perfect quality session tapes, that my opinion of the song could be improved a little.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 09:22:08 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #464 on: March 09, 2020, 09:55:47 AM »

Jack Rieley even said he wished Brian fleshed out the Mt Vernon fragments into full songs, mentioning Better Get Back in Bed in particular! Leaf's book had some praise for it too.

There's a ton going on in that arrangement that the boot quality obscures. More so than most of Brian's Love You era productions. Organ, piano, three basses (including one with a fuzztone and a bowed string bass), tambourine, bongos, congas, harmonica, trumpets, baritone sax...

That doesn't make it better but I wouldn't call it uninspired.
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« Reply #465 on: March 09, 2020, 01:29:31 PM »

So did Mike for "Made in California" I believe ("Going to the beach"). But I agree with you guys.

They (Al?) updated Loop De Loop for Endless Harmony too as I recall.

Yes, Al.

Why did Mike have Scott Totten overdub “Goin’ to the Beach.” This may be a stupid comparison I could fix from carefully A/B’ing the two versions, but  the solo is Scott Totten and not Carl, correct? (sadly)

Yes - and I assume that's because there was no solo recorded for the track in '79/'80. Carl played both bass and rhythm guitar on the song, drummer Scott Mathews says he also played bass on it (there are actually no less than three bass tracks on the recording), and Al also laid down a rhythm guitar track. So, lots of guitars there!

You may recall that something called Tongal had some kind of you record the guitar solo competition, which allowed people to download a flac file of the Goin' To The Beach track sans modern overdubs.

There was another unique track available from the Tongal site too, from memory. If I go looking thru my collection I might find them.
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« Reply #466 on: March 09, 2020, 01:32:41 PM »


For a thread ostensibly about a 1970-71 box set, there's an awful lot of discussion of 1976-1980 tracks (which I have also contributed to).
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« Reply #467 on: March 09, 2020, 03:11:31 PM »


For a thread ostensibly about a 1970-71 box set, there's an awful lot of discussion of 1976-1980 tracks (which I have also contributed to).
yeah, I think that it started with the discussion of the remake track of My Solution
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« Reply #468 on: March 09, 2020, 06:32:57 PM »

"Lazy Lizzie" is undoubtedly an interesting, intriguing insight into Brian and his writing. Even the weird, repetitive, sometimes mundane stuff is interesting in terms of where his head was at and where he was at musically. The fact that he so rarely was trying to copy contemporary pop/rock styles/trends during that time frame is fascinating.

That he knowingly or unknowingly was working that same "Better Get Back in Bed" vibe, and frankly a somewhat similar riff/vibe to "Shortenin' Bread", etc. is undeniably interesting.

Not releasing it officially would be down to mainly a question of whether it's tasteful (and/or would elicit some sort of bad PR/backlash, and whether that risk is worth it for such a song). The fact that it has circulated widely in at least okay-ish sound quality perhaps also makes it less *needed* as a release (and it has also, from what I can tell, much more selectively circulated in much better, virtually pristine quality).

In any event, they'd presumably have until 2026/2027 to decide. Whatever happens, I certainly wouldn't bet a bunch of money we'll see "Lazy Lizzie" officially released any time soon.

Because of the era we live in, where clickbait sites are salivating to make a story out of nothing (or next to nothing), I feel literally 100% confident this song will never, ever be officially released. I think if we were to go through all of the least likely candidates for BBs songs *ever* getting official release, this might rank dead last for those reasons.

If the band could wave a magic wand and make other released songs from their catalog simply go away and never exist, I think Hey Little Tomboy would be #1 on that list, followed by the entire Summer in Paradise album that Mike seems embarrassed by at this point (maybe simply because it flopped so hard, because he'd probably be singing its praises had the thing sold). I would not doubt that there might have at one point in the early 70s been internal discussions of it was possible to delete Never Learn Not to Love from future pressings of 20/20. Glad they never went with that Streisand Effect measure.

And maybe the Heroes and Villains version where Mike (apparently at Brian's behest?) spoken word talks over the music about their latest music being a nuclear bomb... that would also be near the very bottom of the list of song versions that would ever get released officially, for obvious reasons.
The thing about never learn not to love is that they didn’t know until years later. Probably late 70s, early 80s. As several bandmembers have said, for the longest time, they just thought it was a Dennis track
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« Reply #469 on: March 09, 2020, 10:07:47 PM »

"Lazy Lizzie" is undoubtedly an interesting, intriguing insight into Brian and his writing. Even the weird, repetitive, sometimes mundane stuff is interesting in terms of where his head was at and where he was at musically. The fact that he so rarely was trying to copy contemporary pop/rock styles/trends during that time frame is fascinating.

That he knowingly or unknowingly was working that same "Better Get Back in Bed" vibe, and frankly a somewhat similar riff/vibe to "Shortenin' Bread", etc. is undeniably interesting.

Not releasing it officially would be down to mainly a question of whether it's tasteful (and/or would elicit some sort of bad PR/backlash, and whether that risk is worth it for such a song). The fact that it has circulated widely in at least okay-ish sound quality perhaps also makes it less *needed* as a release (and it has also, from what I can tell, much more selectively circulated in much better, virtually pristine quality).

In any event, they'd presumably have until 2026/2027 to decide. Whatever happens, I certainly wouldn't bet a bunch of money we'll see "Lazy Lizzie" officially released any time soon.

Because of the era we live in, where clickbait sites are salivating to make a story out of nothing (or next to nothing), I feel literally 100% confident this song will never, ever be officially released. I think if we were to go through all of the least likely candidates for BBs songs *ever* getting official release, this might rank dead last for those reasons.

If the band could wave a magic wand and make other released songs from their catalog simply go away and never exist, I think Hey Little Tomboy would be #1 on that list, followed by the entire Summer in Paradise album that Mike seems embarrassed by at this point (maybe simply because it flopped so hard, because he'd probably be singing its praises had the thing sold). I would not doubt that there might have at one point in the early 70s been internal discussions of it was possible to delete Never Learn Not to Love from future pressings of 20/20. Glad they never went with that Streisand Effect measure.

And maybe the Heroes and Villains version where Mike (apparently at Brian's behest?) spoken word talks over the music about their latest music being a nuclear bomb... that would also be near the very bottom of the list of song versions that would ever get released officially, for obvious reasons.
The thing about never learn not to love is that they didn’t know until years later. Probably late 70s, early 80s. As several bandmembers have said, for the longest time, they just thought it was a Dennis track

Really? That's fascinating, I had no idea.

Do you know the source of that info?

Separately, I've always wondered when it became *public* knowledge that Manson had something to do with that song; does anybody know the answer to that question?

But I had no idea that it was a mystery to the band internally, as well.
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« Reply #470 on: March 10, 2020, 10:56:16 AM »

Lazy Lizzie I would imagine could be skipped over (and should be, to tell you the truth), because I think there's very little musically new about that song to have to secure a copyright for. The choruses are literally a copy/paste of the choruses of the already-released "Better Get Back in Bed", while the verses offer just a smidge of a new melody, and not a very good one at that. I would imagine if the copyright question ever comes up for this song, they might just skip it entirely for content reasons.

Due to so much of the song being simply recycled from another song in a significant way, I almost view "Better Get Back in Bed"/"Lazy Lizzie" as a "Land Ahoy"/"Cherry, Cherry Coupe" type of situation, as opposed to "Lazy Lizzie" really being its own independent, proper song. I think "Lazy Lizzie" is perhaps the saddest commentary on Brian's mental/emotional state in the late '70s.

To my ears, he was just creatively and emotionally spent and didn't give two f*cks about songwriting. It sounds like someone told him to write a song, and he churned this out to simply cause the request for a song to be placated. I hear not an ounce of Brian's heart or creativity in this song. If there was a textbook example of a song being written while Brian was not a well man, this would be exhibit A. One of the few Brian songs I can say I'd be fine if it never existed. I'm a big, big fan of Love You, despite its weirdness, as well as of other unreleased odd Brian demos from this time... but this track is a hard pass for me.

I disagree - to my ears, "Lizzie" is an example of '76 Brian doing whatever the heck he wanted to, commercial or not. The fact that it recycles old rhythms or melodies in not unusual for BW, and I actually DO hear lot of his heart and creativity in this one! It's different, it's joyous, and it's playful - creepy lyrics aside.

I'm with you - I love Lazy Lizzie and would love to hear a well-mixed and mastered version of the song.
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« Reply #471 on: March 10, 2020, 11:01:28 AM »


Really? That's fascinating, I had no idea.

Do you know the source of that info?

Separately, I've always wondered when it became *public* knowledge that Manson had something to do with that song; does anybody know the answer to that question?

But I had no idea that it was a mystery to the band internally, as well.

It wasn't a mystery to Stephen Desper who recorded Manson singing the song, at Dennis's behest.  But I'm not surprised that no one else knew.  I know Dennis was supporting Manson and the Family and after he had them evicted (by moving out of the rented house and stopping payments) he supposedly gave Manson money for the song - but I'm a little surprised Dennis didn't give Manson partial songwriting credit.  It was recorded in 1968 and released 6 months before the murders.
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« Reply #472 on: March 10, 2020, 11:23:57 AM »


Really? That's fascinating, I had no idea.

Do you know the source of that info?

Separately, I've always wondered when it became *public* knowledge that Manson had something to do with that song; does anybody know the answer to that question?

But I had no idea that it was a mystery to the band internally, as well.

It wasn't a mystery to Stephen Desper who recorded Manson singing the song, at Dennis's behest.  But I'm not surprised that no one else knew.  I know Dennis was supporting Manson and the Family and after he had them evicted (by moving out of the rented house and stopping payments) he supposedly gave Manson money for the song - but I'm a little surprised Dennis didn't give Manson partial songwriting credit.  It was recorded in 1968 and released 6 months before the murders.


IIRC Dennis mentioned it in an interview around that time* that a) Manson wrote or co-wrote the song and b) he wanted just the cash.
BTW I think the contents of what Stephen Desper recorded with Manson are unknown. A songlist has never surfaced if I recall correctly.


* It's in the 1971 Rolling Stone article "A California Saga":

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/beach-boys-a-california-saga-part-ii-233192/

Dennis was asked if it was true Charles Manson wrote the words of “Never Learn Not to Love,” an eerie opus on the 20-20 album with an ominous message: Surrender . . . I’m your kind . . . Come in, closer, come in, closer, closer.

“That’s right, he did.”

Why didn’t you give him the label credit?

“He didn’t want that. He wanted money instead. I gave him about a hundred thousand dollars’ worth of stuff.

“But I don’t think you should put that in your story. I see no reason the story should mention him at all.”
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« Reply #473 on: March 10, 2020, 12:41:06 PM »

Regarding NLNTL / Manson, it would seem pretty obvious that what the band knew and what they were prepared to say publicly were 2 different things.
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« Reply #474 on: March 11, 2020, 11:28:38 AM »

I recall an interview in the early 1990s when Mike was asked about the Capitol two-fer CDs, and he said he barely even knew about them.

ETA: That turns out to have been an understatement. The interview is here: http://troun.tripod.com/mikelove.html.

Quote from: Mike Love
For instance, they were going to do a Best Of The Beach Boys Volume Three in 19 - , whatever the hell it was, and I came in there and went, "Wait a second, call in Endless Summer." And instead of being Volume Three which sound nauseating to me...

He obviously forgot about the *actual* Best of the Beach Boys Volume Three that came out...and frankly, I don't blame him.
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