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Author Topic: Feel Flows box set  (Read 258281 times)
CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #2675 on: December 04, 2020, 08:39:52 AM »

I happen to love the sound of the drums on that track 🥺

The drums are perfect on that song. Yes they are loud, but the drum pattern is simple enough that the loudness only compliments the mood of the song. The drums mix with the bass perfectly, and both set a driving rhythm that makes the song unique yet absolutely listenable.

That’s probably my most played song from that album.

I don't mind the drums on this track, either, but have always noticed how loud they and the bass are. Being Ricky and Blondie's first BBs track, it's as if they're introducing themselves in a conspicuous manner - stepping right up to the album's listeners, extending their hand, and saying, "Welcome to OUR musical world".

I think the drums and bass sit decently well in the mix once everything kicks in and the vocals start, but particularly in the intro it just seems almost like it's a bit of a mistake. Yet I'm sure it was an intentional choice. The snare also sounds a little bit shrill to me so maybe that's why I'm not quite digging it being pumped up so loudly in the intro. After the intro, I think the song settles into more of a cool groove that I can dig for the remainder of it.

But to me it comes across almost like the inverse of Metallica with their "and justice for all" album, where the bass was infamously and comically buried because of some weird ego issue involving Lars, and oddly perhaps out of loyalty to their late bass player Cliff Burton.

The intro of "Here she comes" to my ears feels like an overreach to show off a bit. Maybe this was not on purpose or actually conciously intended that way, but right or wrong, it comes across to me in that matter. It's a well-known musical trope that musicians will often try to mix their own musical instrument louder in order to stick out more. The scene at the music studio in the movie "boogie nights" is another funny example.

Interestingly, compare to "honkin' down the highway", where there's a drum-only intro with no other instruments whatsoever. Naturally the intro is pretty loud and heavy sounding, and then a completely different EQ/compression is applied to the drums as soon as the song properly kicks in. That's an example where it works, but on "here she comes" it just sounds a bit weird IMHO.

C-man, were Ricky/Blondie, and Carl chiefly the ones who worked on the mixing and production on this tune?
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« Reply #2676 on: December 04, 2020, 08:45:57 AM »

I’ll always remember listening to a local FM station when Carl and the Passions was coming out, hoping to hear a track or two before the album actually hit the stores.  They would play a “superset” of 4 songs from various artists, then they’d tell you what those 4 tracks were after the superset had finished. So, I’m listening, listening, listening and I don’t hear The Beach Boys. The dj comes on and says something like “ that was new music from the Stones, Randy Newman, Little Feet and The Beach Boys!” And I would flip out!  I heard no Beach Boys!!!  This repeated over several torturous hours.  The dj had been playing “Here She Comes”.  Smiley
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« Reply #2677 on: December 04, 2020, 09:03:42 AM »

"Here She comes" has such a cool groove. And the intro is a favorite Beach Boys moment of mine.
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« Reply #2678 on: December 04, 2020, 09:12:33 AM »

I’ll always remember listening to a local FM station when Carl and the Passions was coming out, hoping to hear a track or two before the album actually hit the stores.  They would play a “superset” of 4 songs from various artists, then they’d tell you what those 4 tracks were after the superset had finished. So, I’m listening, listening, listening and I don’t hear The Beach Boys. The dj comes on and says something like “ that was new music from the Stones, Randy Newman, Little Feet and The Beach Boys!” And I would flip out!  I heard no Beach Boys!!!  This repeated over several torturous hours.  The dj had been playing “Here She Comes”.  Smiley

This is amazing LOL

That's what I love about it: how completely detached this song is from anything in The Beach Boys catalogue. There are a few songs I'll play people to change their stereotypical perception of The Beach Boys:

Cabinessense
Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again
Here She Comes

These songs completely nuke the idea that this band is solely a fun-in-the-sun July 4th soundtrack band (which is how most people see the band, imo). And when Feel Flows comes out I'll add some of that to the arsenal.

It's this rich catalogue of creativity, beauty, and variety that makes The Beach Boys such a special band.

"Here She comes" has such a cool groove. And the intro is a favorite Beach Boys moment of mine.

Same!
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« Reply #2679 on: December 04, 2020, 09:21:57 AM »

I happen to love the sound of the drums on that track 🥺

The drums are perfect on that song. Yes they are loud, but the drum pattern is simple enough that the loudness only compliments the mood of the song. The drums mix with the bass perfectly, and both set a driving rhythm that makes the song unique yet absolutely listenable.

That’s probably my most played song from that album.

I don't mind the drums on this track, either, but have always noticed how loud they and the bass are. Being Ricky and Blondie's first BBs track, it's as if they're introducing themselves in a conspicuous manner - stepping right up to the album's listeners, extending their hand, and saying, "Welcome to OUR musical world".

Or I think the band as a whole was trying to get some attention with the rock audiences and get closer to what FM and AOR radio was playing, and part of that sound was based on Zeppelin, The Who, etc where drums and bass were way up in the mixes. "When The Levee Breaks" being perhaps the most famous example, where the drums and the drum sound are the main hook of the tune, and that's a truly *extreme* drum sound that became iconic.

However...when you listen to the song "Here She Comes", and consider when it was recorded, the production actually sounds a few years ahead of its time, and predates what became a staple of mid-70's FM album rock: The rock shuffle, or for more musician-minded types the up-tempo version of what Steely Dan used on a few of their more well known songs and also what Jeff Porcaro used on hit after hit. That driving shuffle, the close-mic'ed isolated drum sound pushed up in the mix, etc.

Listen to the intro - That driving shuffle could have been "The Lido Shuffle" by Boz Scaggs, "Black Friday" or "Reelin In The Years" by Steely Dan, or perhaps even more coincidental if you put a Clarence Clemmons sax line on top of that intro, it was very close if not eerily similar to what Springsteen was doing on his first few albums, especially with that Hammond organ.

So was CATP more influential than any sales numbers would indicate, or was it just something in the musical air in 1972-73 that happened to be a sound of the moment? Either way it did give the band a rock edge that they were looking for to cross over to some rock and AOR listeners.

Great track, great sounds - But looking back on it I wonder if it would have actually gotten airplay if they had kept the fast driving shuffle in the intro going throughout the song rather than breaking the groove as they did and slowing the pulse. Not a critique, just an observation, but if you get people moving and grooving on a rocking shuffle it's generally a letdown to have them stop moving and grooving the same way after setting them up.

Fantastic post. In regards to the highlighted yellow part, I remember the liner notes for the two-fer were written by Elton John - and Elton talks about how this album blew his mind in terms of songwriting and production which then went on to influence him. I could be skewing that a bit as I haven't read those liner notes in almost 10 years, but I remember that being the gist of it. So I'd say it's totally possible that it was more influential than the sales numbers would indicate. It reminds me of artists being really hip to other Beach Boys albums that, at the time of release, were not incredibly popular (McCartney and Pet Sounds, Jim Morrison and Wild Honey, and this current example of Elton John and CATPs). Seems like many artists had their ears dialed into what The Beach Boys were doing regardless of popular opinion - whether for inspiration or just for the enjoyment of it.
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« Reply #2680 on: December 04, 2020, 02:14:11 PM »

Fab - Sail On, Sailor is another one to play for people that blows their mind when they find out it’s the Beach Boys...
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« Reply #2681 on: December 04, 2020, 04:51:08 PM »

Reminds me that Tom Petty wrote something for the liner notes for the album Holland.
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« Reply #2682 on: December 04, 2020, 08:44:43 PM »


C-man, were Ricky/Blondie, and Carl chiefly the ones who worked on the mixing and production on this tune?

In the CATP/Holland twofer liner notes, Ricky is credited as the producer on the two Blondie/Ricky tunes. It's been said (by David Leaf, who got it from the 1974 BBC radio series on The Beach Boys) that the album was finished by Ricky and Blondie in one studio (likely The Village), Dennis and Daryl in another (likely Sunset Sound), and Carl, Al, and Mike in a third (probably the studio at Brian's). They were in a hurry to finish it , so I think that's how it was mixed.
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« Reply #2683 on: December 04, 2020, 08:52:48 PM »

That makes sense. The album sounds very disconnected. The songs for the most part are excellent, but they just don't flow together nicely. It's basically some Beach Boys songs, some Flame songs. They got it right on Holland though.
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« Reply #2684 on: December 04, 2020, 09:34:53 PM »

I find every corner of all the mix minutia interesting, but really, this thing of trying to decode a proprietary version of a long-defunct format that never took off in the first place, it's so beyond a niche within a niche within a niche within a niche. It's not likely (nor I'd argue particularly appropriate) for the type of release that "Feel Flows" is. There are folks here that still don't even understand what those encoded mixes are, or were ever intended to be, or how they were or could have been presented. I mean, at the point that we're trying to parse that emulating what the surround mix would have been intended to sound like by encoding a 4.0 surround mix onto a modern disc is *still not good enough*, and/or we would need to literally include some sort of proprietary decoding device, that's insane.

A fresh stereo remix of the two albums is really the thing that seems needed and appropriate for the set as far as a new presentation of the albums themselves (and really, the unreleased material is the star of the show on such sets). The next most likely thing we'd ever see down the road would be some sort of new Dolby Atmos surround mix similar to those made for recent Beatles sets.


I think your points are valid but at the same time:
- the audience for Feel Flows is already niche, and I'm sure a selling point of "previously unreleased original stereo mix, like the producers intended" would appeal to that niche. Compare to the Big Star Third box or Ramones boxes... They have several different album mixes so it's not unheard of, and would at the very least provide an interesting comparison
- no decoder would be necessary, the decoded version would be printed on disc; no surround setup or quad needed
- by the sounds of the samples I heard, I agree that earlier generation tapes could be turned into some fantastic remixes

It's certainly not a hill to die on, but at the same time, if there ever was a time to get it out there, this is it.
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« Reply #2685 on: December 04, 2020, 10:46:49 PM »


I’d also express the opinion that Sunflower  wasn’t successful commercially primarily because The Beach Boys were the uncoolest band in the universe at that time. Nothing to do with the drums. 


That's it exactly, at least in the United States of America. Back in 1970, if Sunflower had been released exactly as recorded, but the artists were listed as Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, the album would have gone straight to number one.

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« Reply #2686 on: December 05, 2020, 05:16:14 AM »


I’d also express the opinion that Sunflower  wasn’t successful commercially primarily because The Beach Boys were the uncoolest band in the universe at that time. Nothing to do with the drums. 


That's it exactly, at least in the United States of America. Back in 1970, if Sunflower had been released exactly as recorded, but the artists were listed as Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, the album would have gone straight to number one.

Yep, and knowing this it really makes one sympathize with Brian's idea for wanting to change the band name to "The Beach"
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« Reply #2687 on: December 05, 2020, 05:20:10 AM »

Fab - Sail On, Sailor is another one to play for people that blows their mind when they find out it’s the Beach Boys...

I also remember blowing some minds when I played 'A Day In The Life Of A Tree' for some people...it was so nice to hear those sample tracks from AllMusic that included the instrumental for 'A Day In The Life Of A Tree' - I am praying that we get an a cappella of the coda somewhere in the FF set.
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« Reply #2688 on: December 05, 2020, 07:59:38 AM »


C-man, were Ricky/Blondie, and Carl chiefly the ones who worked on the mixing and production on this tune?

In the CATP/Holland twofer liner notes, Ricky is credited as the producer on the two Blondie/Ricky tunes. It's been said (by David Leaf, who got it from the 1974 BBC radio series on The Beach Boys) that the album was finished by Ricky and Blondie in one studio (likely The Village), Dennis and Daryl in another (likely Sunset Sound), and Carl, Al, and Mike in a third (probably the studio at Brian's). They were in a hurry to finish it , so I think that's how it was mixed.


Thanks c-man.
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« Reply #2689 on: December 05, 2020, 08:11:58 AM »


...I'm sure a selling point of "previously unreleased original stereo mix, like the producers intended"...

Thing is though, as Mr. Desper would certainly point out - the original stereo mixes ARE as the producers intended! Smiley Any new stereo remix would be for a different purpose, such as to serve as a compliment to the original, not as a replacement, and therefore should be marketed as such.
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« Reply #2690 on: December 05, 2020, 08:16:29 AM »

That makes sense. The album sounds very disconnected. The songs for the most part are excellent, but they just don't flow together nicely. It's basically some Beach Boys songs, some Flame songs. They got it right on Holland though.

Yes, and Carl told Geoffrey Himes in 1982:  "I thought Carl & The Passions should have been three separate albums. Blondie and Ricky were going one direction that sounded a lot like The Band or Stevie Winwood. I thought "Marcella" and "Mess Of Help", two of Brian's best tunes ever, were another direction. If we had done eight tunes like "Marcella", it could have been a great rock album, almost a folk-rock album. I think Dennis' "Cuddle Up" was great; that direction could have been a real romantic side to an album. I wish Brian had been strong enough to produce the record, because it could have an ass-kicking, great record."
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« Reply #2691 on: December 05, 2020, 11:04:18 AM »


...I'm sure a selling point of "previously unreleased original stereo mix, like the producers intended"...

Thing is though, as Mr. Desper would certainly point out - the original stereo mixes ARE as the producers intended! Smiley Any new stereo remix would be for a different purpose, such as to serve as a compliment to the original, not as a replacement, and therefore should be marketed as such.

"Previously unreleased alternate mix that the producers would have preferred to have been released at the time"?  Smiley

I think there are quotes in the Desper thread about Carl wanting the public to hear what they were hearing in the studio, so that's what I meant by "intended". See also the use of "original intention" from the study videos. Those aren't remixes, which would be a third (and new) thing.
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« Reply #2692 on: December 05, 2020, 11:58:02 AM »

I happen to love the sound of the drums on that track 🥺


So do i, and EVEN a certain Drummer called John Bonham loved the Drum sound on CATP
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« Reply #2693 on: December 05, 2020, 10:09:31 PM »

I LOVE the mixing on Sunflower/Surf's Up but I think part of the reason those records weren't commercially successful is that the drums aren't very audible in the mix. I could be completely wrong (and no disrespect to Mr. Desper's incredible work) but that's my POV.

Compare the BBs early-'70s mixes to their peers at the time (CSNY, Neil Young, etc.) — the drums are a larger part of the overall picture w/ a more "rock" sound.

I would be interested to hear a remix, knowing that nothing can replace the released mixes.

I think the balance of the mixes would be more due to Carl & Brian’s sensibilities rather than Desper’s. Also, drums further back in the mix work better in multi-layered productions like Sunflower.
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« Reply #2694 on: December 06, 2020, 05:49:01 AM »

I happen to love the sound of the drums on that track 🥺


So do i, and EVEN a certain Drummer called John Bonham loved the Drum sound on CATP

Cool...is there a particular interview you can reference? That might be fun to read!
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« Reply #2695 on: December 07, 2020, 07:16:18 AM »

"Previously unreleased alternate mix that WE THINK the producers would have preferred to have been released at the time"

works as long as WE remains unidentified

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« Reply #2696 on: December 08, 2020, 05:38:36 AM »

"Here She comes" has such a cool groove. And the intro is a favorite Beach Boys moment of mine.

A fun game to play with this song:

Put this song on for your friends and ask them what band it is.  Unless they've heard it before they'll never guess correctly. 

The Ricky/Blondie sound was a radical departure from what the Beach Boys had been doing and I really dug these guys.  They absolutely gave the band, who had been waning in popularity, some much-needed street cred.  Especially  when it came to their live shows.  It's too bad they didn't stay within the group long enough to really meld their sound with the rest of the band.  I would have welcomed another album with them after Holland.
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« Reply #2697 on: December 08, 2020, 08:19:08 AM »

That sounds like a similar thing I actually did on the radio once. We were doing some kind of giveaway at the station (format; modern rock, and this was circa 1997), and we were told just come up with a creative way to give away the prizes. So I played "Funky Pretty" off the In Concert album and said to win, you had to correctly identify the group. People called in and guessed Survivor, I think the Rolling Stones, and a bunch of others that I don't remember that were way off. NOBODY guessed it until I said, "Here, I'll play a few seconds of another song on the album" and switched to "Help Me, Rhonda."
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« Reply #2698 on: December 08, 2020, 12:57:23 PM »


Hey HeyJude,

Didn't someone in this thread say the main thing holding up "Feel Flows" is an issue with credits?  Or did I dream that?

Now if that's the case, then the credit situation has to worked out.  Or... the song, or songs, in question have to be excised from the set.

That brings us to speculation on why the credit situation is so hard to resolve.  I mean, are Mike or any other of the Beach Boys going to make more than a negligible amount by getting their names on some obscure track that is going to appear on this vanity/historical release?  Probably not.  So that should be easy to resolve.

However, if someone wants their credit changed on one or more of the main songs on the two albums, then perhaps they're asking for reimbursement of monies lost over the years?  Isn't that what Mike did before?  He sued and got Brian to pay him for royalties he was not paid over the years?

Am I getting close?


Love and merci,
Dan Lega



Nah, credits are not an issue. There's no dispute over songwriting or any other credits.

I don't think anybody has actually asserted that credits are an issue. I think someone at some point speculated if that might be the case. Either way, credits aren't at issue.

While it's understandable up to a point to find this concept confusing, it's important to remember that the compilation, mixing, mastering, artwork prep, etc. for this set were all run through the appropriate parties. Essentially, this set *was* given a green light at every step up until the finished product was ready for a release date to be set and manufacturing to begin. Knowing this might help folks to understand the things that would be very unlikely to be an issue. Things like track listing concerns, songwriting credits, liner notes disputes, all of that stuff would have been raised as an issue most likely prior to the set literally being ready to be sent to the printers/manufacturing plant. Obviously, anybody could dispute anything at any time, including disputing something they previously signed off on. But I don't believe that's the case with "Feel Flows."

A situation came into being, virtually unrelated to anything to do with the set, and it was and seemingly still is being used to decide to delay releasing the set. As I've previously said, this situation is a legit situation that would require appropriate attention, care, etc. I'm not even characterizing whether said situation is a good or a bad thing. It's just a thing/issue/occurrence, whatever you want to call it. That this situation is given serious attention is not unwarranted. What seems to have confused/stunned/frustrated folks is that *that* situation is being used as a reason to delay releasing "Feel Flows" when most people I think would see no reason that the set couldn't be released as per normal.



It has been announced that Bob Dylan has agreed to sell all his copyright to Universal Music.

If one looks back many pages back to the description of the decision before the Beach Boys which may have precipitated the original excuse to delay the FF box set, one might well come to the conclusion that a similar offer is/was on the table for the Beach Boys/BRI.
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« Reply #2699 on: December 08, 2020, 01:45:51 PM »


Hey HeyJude,

Didn't someone in this thread say the main thing holding up "Feel Flows" is an issue with credits?  Or did I dream that?

Now if that's the case, then the credit situation has to worked out.  Or... the song, or songs, in question have to be excised from the set.

That brings us to speculation on why the credit situation is so hard to resolve.  I mean, are Mike or any other of the Beach Boys going to make more than a negligible amount by getting their names on some obscure track that is going to appear on this vanity/historical release?  Probably not.  So that should be easy to resolve.

However, if someone wants their credit changed on one or more of the main songs on the two albums, then perhaps they're asking for reimbursement of monies lost over the years?  Isn't that what Mike did before?  He sued and got Brian to pay him for royalties he was not paid over the years?

Am I getting close?


Love and merci,
Dan Lega



Nah, credits are not an issue. There's no dispute over songwriting or any other credits.

I don't think anybody has actually asserted that credits are an issue. I think someone at some point speculated if that might be the case. Either way, credits aren't at issue.

While it's understandable up to a point to find this concept confusing, it's important to remember that the compilation, mixing, mastering, artwork prep, etc. for this set were all run through the appropriate parties. Essentially, this set *was* given a green light at every step up until the finished product was ready for a release date to be set and manufacturing to begin. Knowing this might help folks to understand the things that would be very unlikely to be an issue. Things like track listing concerns, songwriting credits, liner notes disputes, all of that stuff would have been raised as an issue most likely prior to the set literally being ready to be sent to the printers/manufacturing plant. Obviously, anybody could dispute anything at any time, including disputing something they previously signed off on. But I don't believe that's the case with "Feel Flows."

A situation came into being, virtually unrelated to anything to do with the set, and it was and seemingly still is being used to decide to delay releasing the set. As I've previously said, this situation is a legit situation that would require appropriate attention, care, etc. I'm not even characterizing whether said situation is a good or a bad thing. It's just a thing/issue/occurrence, whatever you want to call it. That this situation is given serious attention is not unwarranted. What seems to have confused/stunned/frustrated folks is that *that* situation is being used as a reason to delay releasing "Feel Flows" when most people I think would see no reason that the set couldn't be released as per normal.



It has been announced that Bob Dylan has agreed to sell all his copyright to Universal Music.

If one looks back many pages back to the description of the decision before the Beach Boys which may have precipitated the original excuse to delay the FF box set, one might well come to the conclusion that a similar offer is/was on the table for the Beach Boys/BRI.

Interesting idea, but I don’t think the band/members doesn’t own the rights to its most profitable publishing material - the Capitol era stuff. Murry sold all of that right? I doubt the band had a big offer for that.
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