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Author Topic: Feel Flows box set  (Read 266761 times)
aeijtzsche
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« Reply #2650 on: December 02, 2020, 07:28:39 PM »

Well now I'm more confused - and, admittedly, I have not gone to the honored guests thread -

If you can send a signal to 4 speakers, surely you can record that signal (output) and then press that as 4 discrete channels on any medium that stores more than 4 channels.

What am I missing?


The issue is that you can't send a signal to 4 speakers in this case.  Desper never did a mix with 4 discrete output signals.  His device is for two speakers.
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« Reply #2651 on: December 02, 2020, 07:33:12 PM »

Here's a relevant post I found:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,1203.msg3372.html#msg3372
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« Reply #2652 on: December 03, 2020, 07:56:06 AM »

I find every corner of all the mix minutia interesting, but really, this thing of trying to decode a proprietary version of a long-defunct format that never took off in the first place, it's so beyond a niche within a niche within a niche within a niche. It's not likely (nor I'd argue particularly appropriate) for the type of release that "Feel Flows" is. There are folks here that still don't even understand what those encoded mixes are, or were ever intended to be, or how they were or could have been presented. I mean, at the point that we're trying to parse that emulating what the surround mix would have been intended to sound like by encoding a 4.0 surround mix onto a modern disc is *still not good enough*, and/or we would need to literally include some sort of proprietary decoding device, that's insane.

A fresh stereo remix of the two albums is really the thing that seems needed and appropriate for the set as far as a new presentation of the albums themselves (and really, the unreleased material is the star of the show on such sets). The next most likely thing we'd ever see down the road would be some sort of new Dolby Atmos surround mix similar to those made for recent Beatles sets.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 08:00:02 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #2653 on: December 03, 2020, 08:19:31 AM »

I find every corner of all the mix minutia interesting, but really, this thing of trying to decode a proprietary version of a long-defunct format that never took off in the first place, it's so beyond a niche within a niche within a niche within a niche. It's not likely (nor I'd argue particularly appropriate) for the type of release that "Feel Flows" is. There are folks here that still don't even understand what those encoded mixes are, or were ever intended to be, or how they were or could have been presented. I mean, at the point that we're trying to parse that emulating what the surround mix would have been intended to sound like by encoding a 4.0 surround mix onto a modern disc is *still not good enough*, and/or we would need to literally include some sort of proprietary decoding device, that's insane.


Loop De Loop on the Endless Harmony soundtrack and a few of the new mixes on Ultimate Christmas apparently show off what such a thing would sound like on an official release (I say apparently because that's what the liner notes say, before somebody kills me). And it's... interesting? As a tech demo? But it becomes nauseating quite quickly, especially if you're listening with headphones, and I'd even say it's a detrimental effect to the music. A normal stereo mix suits two ears fine.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 08:27:37 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
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« Reply #2654 on: December 03, 2020, 11:07:17 AM »

I find every corner of all the mix minutia interesting, but really, this thing of trying to decode a proprietary version of a long-defunct format that never took off in the first place, it's so beyond a niche within a niche within a niche within a niche. It's not likely (nor I'd argue particularly appropriate) for the type of release that "Feel Flows" is. There are folks here that still don't even understand what those encoded mixes are, or were ever intended to be, or how they were or could have been presented. I mean, at the point that we're trying to parse that emulating what the surround mix would have been intended to sound like by encoding a 4.0 surround mix onto a modern disc is *still not good enough*, and/or we would need to literally include some sort of proprietary decoding device, that's insane.

A fresh stereo remix of the two albums is really the thing that seems needed and appropriate for the set as far as a new presentation of the albums themselves (and really, the unreleased material is the star of the show on such sets). The next most likely thing we'd ever see down the road would be some sort of new Dolby Atmos surround mix similar to those made for recent Beatles sets.


New stereo mixes would be welcome.  Even though that seems to be the latest method to repackage and re-release the same music.   
They recently remixed a bunch of John Lennon's solo material for a greatest hits compilation.  But with absolutely no disrespect meant towards Mr. Desper's work, I would be curious to hear how a remixed Sunflower would sound. 
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« Reply #2655 on: December 03, 2020, 11:08:47 AM »

I find every corner of all the mix minutia interesting, but really, this thing of trying to decode a proprietary version of a long-defunct format that never took off in the first place, it's so beyond a niche within a niche within a niche within a niche. It's not likely (nor I'd argue particularly appropriate) for the type of release that "Feel Flows" is. There are folks here that still don't even understand what those encoded mixes are, or were ever intended to be, or how they were or could have been presented. I mean, at the point that we're trying to parse that emulating what the surround mix would have been intended to sound like by encoding a 4.0 surround mix onto a modern disc is *still not good enough*, and/or we would need to literally include some sort of proprietary decoding device, that's insane.

A fresh stereo remix of the two albums is really the thing that seems needed and appropriate for the set as far as a new presentation of the albums themselves (and really, the unreleased material is the star of the show on such sets). The next most likely thing we'd ever see down the road would be some sort of new Dolby Atmos surround mix similar to those made for recent Beatles sets.


New stereo mixes would be welcome.  Even though that seems to be the latest method to repackage and re-release the same music.  
They recently remixed a bunch of John Lennon's solo material for a greatest hits compilation.  But with absolutely no disrespect meant towards Mr. Desper's work, I would be curious to hear how a remixed Sunflower would sound.  
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« Reply #2656 on: December 03, 2020, 11:52:35 AM »

Okay, so I now understand - it's all about psychoacoustics.

Amazing noone's ever bootlegged the decode.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 11:56:56 AM by thetojo » Logged
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« Reply #2657 on: December 03, 2020, 12:05:56 PM »

I LOVE the mixing on Sunflower/Surf's Up but I think part of the reason those records weren't commercially successful is that the drums aren't very audible in the mix. I could be completely wrong (and no disrespect to Mr. Desper's incredible work) but that's my POV.

Compare the BBs early-'70s mixes to their peers at the time (CSNY, Neil Young, etc.) — the drums are a larger part of the overall picture w/ a more "rock" sound.

I would be interested to hear a remix, knowing that nothing can replace the released mixes.
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« Reply #2658 on: December 03, 2020, 12:43:21 PM »

I like Sunflower but there's no song on the album that would have been a hit on am radio during that time.  There should have been a song on the album called Sunflower.
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« Reply #2659 on: December 03, 2020, 12:58:34 PM »

I LOVE the mixing on Sunflower/Surf's Up but I think part of the reason those records weren't commercially successful is that the drums aren't very audible in the mix. I could be completely wrong (and no disrespect to Mr. Desper's incredible work) but that's my POV.

Compare the BBs early-'70s mixes to their peers at the time (CSNY, Neil Young, etc.) — the drums are a larger part of the overall picture w/ a more "rock" sound.

I would be interested to hear a remix, knowing that nothing can replace the released mixes.

Interestingly, shortly thereafter on CATP, they went overboard in the opposite direction, with the comically too-loud drums on "Here She Comes"  LOL
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« Reply #2660 on: December 03, 2020, 12:59:58 PM »

I like Sunflower but there's no song on the album that would have been a hit on am radio during that time.  There should have been a song on the album called Sunflower.

Has the band ever stated the reason for the album's title? I guess the whole flower blooming imagery and it being an "album offering" was some sort of hippie code for "the band is cool to enjoy now", but I wonder if it was ever specifically discussed.
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« Reply #2661 on: December 03, 2020, 01:29:19 PM »

Well now I'm more confused - and, admittedly, I have not gone to the honored guests thread -

If you can send a signal to 4 speakers, surely you can record that signal (output) and then press that as 4 discrete channels on any medium that stores more than 4 channels.

What am I missing?


The issue is that you can't send a signal to 4 speakers in this case.  Desper never did a mix with 4 discrete output signals.  His device is for two speakers.
So is this system like Prologic 2 where you get different frequencies bounced to different speakers?
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« Reply #2662 on: December 03, 2020, 02:17:34 PM »

always found it interesting that a few years later Glen Campbell had a minor hit called Sunflower, At that time I did look to see if there was a Beach Boy connection, but other than the obvious, there wasn't.  Cool Guy
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« Reply #2663 on: December 03, 2020, 03:12:02 PM »

In the version of “Back Home” done around that time, there’s the line about “backyards where folks keep sunflowers growin”...
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« Reply #2664 on: December 03, 2020, 03:19:54 PM »

In the version of “Back Home” done around that time, there’s the line about “backyards where folks keep sunflowers growin”...

Interesting, I wonder if that lyric came about after the album title was coined, or vice versa
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« Reply #2665 on: December 03, 2020, 03:32:32 PM »

I’d think the song lyric inspired the album title. I can imagine the thinking being “holy crap, we were gonna call the album Add Some Music, but the single flopped - now what do we call it?”
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« Reply #2666 on: December 03, 2020, 03:38:45 PM »

I’d also express the opinion that Sunflower  wasn’t successful commercially primarily  because The Beach Boys were the uncoolest band in the universe at that time. Nothing to do with the drums. 
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« Reply #2667 on: December 03, 2020, 06:42:05 PM »

Well now I'm more confused - and, admittedly, I have not gone to the honored guests thread -

If you can send a signal to 4 speakers, surely you can record that signal (output) and then press that as 4 discrete channels on any medium that stores more than 4 channels.

What am I missing?


The issue is that you can't send a signal to 4 speakers in this case.  Desper never did a mix with 4 discrete output signals.  His device is for two speakers.
So is this system like Prologic 2 where you get different frequencies bounced to different speakers?

Well as far as I know, Desper has never really elaborated on what the process did under the hood, but no--Prologic uses some kind of summing/subtraction matrix to artificially create discrete material to multi-speaker set-ups.  Desper's system is for stereo -- it only goes to two speakers but his technology does some things to psychoacoustically trick the brain into hearing a more 3D sound. 
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« Reply #2668 on: December 03, 2020, 08:32:22 PM »

I LOVE the mixing on Sunflower/Surf's Up but I think part of the reason those records weren't commercially successful is that the drums aren't very audible in the mix. I could be completely wrong (and no disrespect to Mr. Desper's incredible work) but that's my POV.

Compare the BBs early-'70s mixes to their peers at the time (CSNY, Neil Young, etc.) — the drums are a larger part of the overall picture w/ a more "rock" sound.

I would be interested to hear a remix, knowing that nothing can replace the released mixes.

Interestingly, shortly thereafter on CATP, they went overboard in the opposite direction, with the comically too-loud drums on "Here She Comes"  LOL

Well, that one WAS produced & mixed by a drummer, so...
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« Reply #2669 on: December 03, 2020, 09:04:17 PM »

I happen to love the sound of the drums on that track 🥺
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Free Feel Flows!!!!

Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





——————————————————————————————-

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« Reply #2670 on: December 04, 2020, 01:34:31 AM »

I happen to love the sound of the drums on that track 🥺

The drums are perfect on that song. Yes they are loud, but the drum pattern is simple enough that the loudness only compliments the mood of the song. The drums mix with the bass perfectly, and both set a driving rhythm that makes the song unique yet absolutely listenable.

That’s probably my most played song from that album.
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« Reply #2671 on: December 04, 2020, 06:39:28 AM »

I happen to love the sound of the drums on that track 🥺

The drums are perfect on that song. Yes they are loud, but the drum pattern is simple enough that the loudness only compliments the mood of the song. The drums mix with the bass perfectly, and both set a driving rhythm that makes the song unique yet absolutely listenable.

That’s probably my most played song from that album.

I don't mind the drums on this track, either, but have always noticed how loud they and the bass are. Being Ricky and Blondie's first BBs track, it's as if they're introducing themselves in a conspicuous manner - stepping right up to the album's listeners, extending their hand, and saying, "Welcome to OUR musical world".
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« Reply #2672 on: December 04, 2020, 07:12:28 AM »

I happen to love the sound of the drums on that track 🥺

The drums are perfect on that song. Yes they are loud, but the drum pattern is simple enough that the loudness only compliments the mood of the song. The drums mix with the bass perfectly, and both set a driving rhythm that makes the song unique yet absolutely listenable.

That’s probably my most played song from that album.

I don't mind the drums on this track, either, but have always noticed how loud they and the bass are. Being Ricky and Blondie's first BBs track, it's as if they're introducing themselves in a conspicuous manner - stepping right up to the album's listeners, extending their hand, and saying, "Welcome to OUR musical world".

The drums and bass are too loud for my taste. Conversely, the lead vocals are buried. I wish they'd introduced themselves by leaning closer to the mic!   Grin
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« Reply #2673 on: December 04, 2020, 07:28:55 AM »

I’d think the song lyric inspired the album title. I can imagine the thinking being “holy crap, we were gonna call the album Add Some Music, but the single flopped - now what do we call it?”

The album title came from the logo of a sunflower crate label, it was Carl's idea. Google 'Orangedale Sunflower'.

I'd imagine the line in Back Home was meant as a deliberate reference. The album was always called 'Sunflower' even when it was first submitted - 'Add Some Music' was a temporary change from the label to tie into the single.
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« Reply #2674 on: December 04, 2020, 08:01:48 AM »

I happen to love the sound of the drums on that track 🥺

The drums are perfect on that song. Yes they are loud, but the drum pattern is simple enough that the loudness only compliments the mood of the song. The drums mix with the bass perfectly, and both set a driving rhythm that makes the song unique yet absolutely listenable.

That’s probably my most played song from that album.

I don't mind the drums on this track, either, but have always noticed how loud they and the bass are. Being Ricky and Blondie's first BBs track, it's as if they're introducing themselves in a conspicuous manner - stepping right up to the album's listeners, extending their hand, and saying, "Welcome to OUR musical world".

Or I think the band as a whole was trying to get some attention with the rock audiences and get closer to what FM and AOR radio was playing, and part of that sound was based on Zeppelin, The Who, etc where drums and bass were way up in the mixes. "When The Levee Breaks" being perhaps the most famous example, where the drums and the drum sound are the main hook of the tune, and that's a truly *extreme* drum sound that became iconic.

However...when you listen to the song "Here She Comes", and consider when it was recorded, the production actually sounds a few years ahead of its time, and predates what became a staple of mid-70's FM album rock: The rock shuffle, or for more musician-minded types the up-tempo version of what Steely Dan used on a few of their more well known songs and also what Jeff Porcaro used on hit after hit. That driving shuffle, the close-mic'ed isolated drum sound pushed up in the mix, etc.

Listen to the intro - That driving shuffle could have been "The Lido Shuffle" by Boz Scaggs, "Black Friday" or "Reelin In The Years" by Steely Dan, or perhaps even more coincidental if you put a Clarence Clemmons sax line on top of that intro, it was very close if not eerily similar to what Springsteen was doing on his first few albums, especially with that Hammond organ.

So was CATP more influential than any sales numbers would indicate, or was it just something in the musical air in 1972-73 that happened to be a sound of the moment? Either way it did give the band a rock edge that they were looking for to cross over to some rock and AOR listeners.

Great track, great sounds - But looking back on it I wonder if it would have actually gotten airplay if they had kept the fast driving shuffle in the intro going throughout the song rather than breaking the groove as they did and slowing the pulse. Not a critique, just an observation, but if you get people moving and grooving on a rocking shuffle it's generally a letdown to have them stop moving and grooving the same way after setting them up.
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