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664551 Posts in 26635 Topics by 3819 Members - Latest Member: Occasional grilled cheese December 03, 2020, 01:58:19 AM
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Author Topic: Feel Flows box set  (Read 209996 times)
HeyJude
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« Reply #2100 on: October 12, 2020, 09:16:19 PM »

start BBtoday posted the following...

All right. Here's what this comes down to.

The insiders making everyone play the guessing game comes across as, for lack of a better term, douchey. Call that trolling if you want. I don't care. I can go back to not posting in here for months at a time.

As some background, I'm a journalist. There's plenty of things I know about my subject of expertise that I can't report publicly. Do I go into forums and make people guess what I know and don't know and then not tell them what is and isn't true? No, that would be extremely bizarre and narcissistic behavior.

Say what you know. Don't say what you can't. This doesn't seem that hard."


Isn't that EXACTLY what we have been doing?? Say things we KNOW, and don't say things we CAN'T. And It is fucking hard because when we follow that code to try and inform people as best we can we get blowback from mental giants like you who can't seem to understand that this is only being done to support the project as it was created by the team that was hired to create it. No one, let me repeat NO ONE is MAKING you play a guessing game. In fact we have suggested that you don't because it's not helpful to the cause of getting the full box released in it's best form. But guessing is human nature, and when the guess is significantly wrong some of us have tried to steer things back toward a factual realm. Again a very very hard thing to do when geniuses like yourself divert the fundamentals into a distorted masturbation of obfuscation and inflated self. Howie has tried his best. Juggling an incredibly volatile and fragile situation out of pure love for the music. He shares what he can to enlighten some anxious fans. He gets called "Douchey" by YOU for doing that. Nice job man. You get the lets sh*t all over the best source we have award. Wear it proudly.

Thank you.  Well put, again. 
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Wirestone
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« Reply #2101 on: October 12, 2020, 09:20:48 PM »

What is anyone here actually fighting about? Really. Sheesh almighty.

I should have expected that debates about autotune could only carry a message board so far, but this seems to be endless pages of yammering about a box set that 1.) is done but 2.) isn't out yet for 3.) reasons. We don't know 3.) for sure yet, although goodness knows the source of foulness in this band's history is never difficult to spot. And there may be 4.) more reasons being generated, this being a band that can never, and I emphasize never, get its sh*t together.

But we're eating ourselves alive here, and it ain't pretty or useful. I appreciate the insider knowledge, look forward to any potential release, and am ordering the Murry Wilson vinyl because it's actually coming out.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 09:21:15 PM by Wirestone » Logged
FreakySmiley
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« Reply #2102 on: October 12, 2020, 09:21:58 PM »

HeyJude, I think it's safe to say that my respect for you and your patience/persistence has tripled over the last few pages.

Also, from Howie's comments it sounds like we have already reached what would be considered a "drop dead date" for the box set's release by this year's end. But next spring is still a plausibility/possibility? Hopefully still in it's original configuration.
Thank you again to both Howie and Mr. Stebbins for you continued articulate and succinct contributions to an often messy discourse (my immense respect for all your behind-the-scenes efforts should not go without mention).
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♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #2103 on: October 12, 2020, 10:16:35 PM »

HeyJude, I think it's safe to say that my respect for you and your patience/persistence has tripled over the last few pages.

Also, from Howie's comments it sounds like we have already reached what would be considered a "drop dead date" for the box set's release by this year's end. But next spring is still a plausibility/possibility? Hopefully still in it's original configuration.
Thank you again to both Howie and Mr. Stebbins for you continued articulate and succinct contributions to an often messy discourse (my immense respect for all your behind-the-scenes efforts should not go without mention).

Here, here!
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RIP Daniel Dale Johnston ( 1961-2019)
_______________________________________________________
Fear 2 Stop: eating all of Elon Musk's nightmares as he sleeps

"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
________________________________________________
Free Feel Flows!!!!

Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧-

http://fear2stop.bandcamp.com/track/tricky-treats
Empire Of Love
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« Reply #2104 on: October 13, 2020, 06:29:08 AM »

HeyJude, I think it's safe to say that my respect for you and your patience/persistence has tripled over the last few pages.

+1, as they say.

EoL
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twentytwenty
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« Reply #2105 on: October 13, 2020, 09:35:46 AM »

@Heyjude and @startbbtoday,. this argument is so simple but yet you will never agree to disagree about this.

* Those who don't know the reasons why this set isn't being released are making guesses and sometimes tongue in cheek guesses about what the problem might be.
* Those who know about the reasons shoot them down immediately and saying stop guessing, it won't change anything.
You're both right, and you're both wrong (in each others point of views).  

Personally I think it's great that we have some insider information on the boards, is it somewhat frustrating to not getting all the facts? Of course it is, but you have to understand where they come from. Would they be able to get this kind of inside knowledge if they immediately leaked the information they got on a fan forum? Of course they wouldn't.

And after all, we wouldn't even barely know about this set if it weren't for those who have inside information. Remember that and appreciate the information we're getting.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 09:38:54 AM by twentytwenty » Logged
CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #2106 on: October 13, 2020, 11:12:13 AM »

While it's been said before, it bears repeating again - thank you Howie, Jon, and HJ for your tireless efforts. You folks should not have deal with the garbage nonsense that's being flung at you, nor should you have to deal repeatedly with people who just don't and won't get it.  

You all rock, and the vast majority of fans DEEPLY appreciate you.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 11:38:05 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #2107 on: October 13, 2020, 12:33:15 PM »

While it's been said before, it bears repeating again - thank you Howie, Jon, and HJ for your tireless efforts. You folks should not have deal with the garbage nonsense that's being flung at you, nor should you have to deal repeatedly with people who just don't and won't get it. 

You all rock, and the vast majority of fans DEEPLY appreciate you.


👍
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RIP Daniel Dale Johnston ( 1961-2019)
_______________________________________________________
Fear 2 Stop: eating all of Elon Musk's nightmares as he sleeps

"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
________________________________________________
Free Feel Flows!!!!

Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧-

http://fear2stop.bandcamp.com/track/tricky-treats
Howie Edelson
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« Reply #2108 on: October 13, 2020, 03:39:14 PM »

Thanks guys -- I appreciate it.

I tell as much as I can without fucki ng sh it up for everybody.
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♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #2109 on: October 13, 2020, 05:11:32 PM »

We appreciate you immensely, brother 😎
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RIP Daniel Dale Johnston ( 1961-2019)
_______________________________________________________
Fear 2 Stop: eating all of Elon Musk's nightmares as he sleeps

"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
________________________________________________
Free Feel Flows!!!!

Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧-

http://fear2stop.bandcamp.com/track/tricky-treats
kennyhasbeenfound
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« Reply #2110 on: October 13, 2020, 06:17:19 PM »

The guys in the band should see this set as a legacy thing.  It's not about selling units or getting fans now, it's about cementing their standing and winning fans for decades

How many of you have played the live version of Blondie singing Wild Honey, or WIBNTLA, or the alternate All I Want to Do with Dennis singing lead, or even an audience recording of them doing Jumpin' Jack Flash to a friend?  How many of the friends liked it and thought wow, this is the Beach Boys?  I'm raising my hand, and these are people who wouldn't listen to the Beach Boys on a bet.  How many other people do you think they in turn passed it on to?  Things like that roll across the years paying dividends, more so than another version of Do It Again.  Long term, long term.
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #2111 on: October 13, 2020, 06:28:56 PM »

The guys in the band should see this set as a legacy thing.  It's not about selling units or getting fans now, it's about cementing their standing and winning fans for decades

How many of you have played the live version of Blondie singing Wild Honey, or WIBNTLA, or the alternate All I Want to Do with Dennis singing lead, or even an audience recording of them doing Jumpin' Jack Flash to a friend?  How many of the friends liked it and thought wow, this is the Beach Boys?  I'm raising my hand, and these are people who wouldn't listen to the Beach Boys on a bet.  How many other people do you think they in turn passed it on to?  Things like that roll across the years paying dividends, more so than another version of Do It Again.  Long term, long term.

I'm raising my hand. Same for me. I've shared recently-released BB recordings that have been freed from being locked up for 50 years, and I feel like some friends have opened their eyes. I second all of this. Yet I fear a stubborn band member who wants the reputation/legacy primarily to based on what's already established, but you know, hopefully somehow, someone behind the scenes will nudge them in the right direction, and I'm trying really hard to be optimistic as much as it pains me to think of the alternative. I hope someone behind the scenes can figure out how to make stubborn, bitter old coot have a change of heart. There's GOT to be a way.
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« Reply #2112 on: October 13, 2020, 06:57:56 PM »

Kennyhasbeenfound inspired me to go watch/listen to this for the umpteenth time.  Has there ever been a band with a more diverse and interesting history and back catalog?  I doubt it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uS6m0fN-Ow0

Long live The Beach Boys!  Free Feel Flows!
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« Reply #2113 on: October 13, 2020, 07:04:47 PM »

Question from a poster naive both on the business aspect of these releases and just how much Dennis material is involved.

Hypothetically, if the equivalent of a disc is removed from a box set, is the price drop substantial? I think the price of $100 has been tossed around so could it be $95 minus one disc (not worth quibbling) compared to the more attractive, say, $65?

Just wondering if 壮omebody is thinking of sales numbers in the market rather than what the market wants?
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thetojo
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« Reply #2114 on: October 13, 2020, 09:16:52 PM »

Question from a poster naive both on the business aspect of these releases and just how much Dennis material is involved.

Hypothetically, if the equivalent of a disc is removed from a box set, is the price drop substantial? I think the price of $100 has been tossed around so could it be $95 minus one disc (not worth quibbling) compared to the more attractive, say, $65?

Just wondering if 壮omebody is thinking of sales numbers in the market rather than what the market wants?

Don't think your theory makes any real sense.

It seems very clear now that these archival type releases are not motivated by commercialism to any substantial extent. It's all about the constant back and forth between what the fans want, on the one hand, and what the band is prepared to release, on the other. There's a lot of tension in there.
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« Reply #2115 on: October 14, 2020, 04:19:28 AM »

Thanks guys -- I appreciate it.

I tell as much as I can without fucki ng sh it up for everybody.

And you do it marvelously well. We wouldn't even know that it was done and how much work got put in to it, or how important this set actually is if it weren't for you
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« Reply #2116 on: October 14, 2020, 07:51:12 AM »

The accusations that Mike is jealous of Dennis music doesn't make any sense to me. Just a few years ago, the Made in California box set came out which was heavy with unreleased Dennis Wilson songs! The anti Mike rhetoric is getting old. Reminds me of the rumors that Mike fired Brian during the 50th anniversary. Proven to be untrue. However, it is true that Mike was disappointed that he was not allowed to work one on one with Brian. And Brian has stated in an interview that he does not like Mike at all. Mike believes that the people around Brian is what kept him from working alone with Brian. But I believe that Brian requested that his people keep Mike from working with him. Sad situation. Personally, I think the worst part of TWGMTR was the producer, Joe Thomas.

What's getting old is that *one* story of Mike participating in the "Made in California" set being used as evidence that he would never have an issue with Dennis or Dennis material, and as evidence that he always and would always be enthusiastic about archival releases, and I guess, that a MILLION other internal issues/politics wouldn't supersede any of that.

This ignores 60 years of band history and politics, including interviews *with* Mike where he discusses his affinity/enthusiasm, or lack thereof, concerning archival releases, album reissues, and really studio recording in general.



So you are just going to ignore all the things that have come out, like Sunshine Tomorrow and Wake the World? Also, Mike has stated many times that he likes the music from 67-73. His main beef was that they were poorly promoted. Especially by Capital in 68-69. He also helped promote the Smile Sessions 9 years ago.

I can't do anything to help you if you're going to be this ignorant of the band's history.

There are a THOUSAND political and personal issues within the band when it comes to this period of the band's history and their music. For that matter, those politics and the aforementioned "circular firing squad" are potentially *always* at play, even when it's about putting out a greatest hits compilation.

If you think the *only* issue or feeling Mike (or other members) would have about that era of material is simply that the band "was promoted poorly", then I would suggest more research and reading. No, of course it's not as simple as so-and-so just *hates* all of the material from a given era (well, that's true in some cases, but not in the case of 67-73 material). But there are a myriad of personal and business machinations involved, far beyond "well, I love the material, it's just a shame it wasn't promoted better!"

Anybody that has studied this and and its history knows the band's attitude towards archival projects, and should understand how lucky we are that there is an archival team pushing for this stuff behind the scenes, because these "copyright extension" sets being signed off on is in NO WAY evidence of an active championing of the material by some if not most members, and certainly is in no way evidence of what might happen with subsequent sets.

I know all about the bands history! I would like to point out that there is a difference between what Mike has said, and what Mike's critics have exaggerated what he has said. I know that Mike denies ever saying 'Don't F with the formula'. So rather than tell me that we know Mike is behind Feel Flows box not coming out because we have preconceived bias that it has to be him. Please send me a link to prove that Mike has said any such thing, or evem those close to Mike. I will not buy into hypatheticals or rumors. I know that I haven't read everything on this topic, so maybe I missed it.
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"Over the years, I've been accused of not supporting our new music from this era (67-73) and just wanting to play our hits. That's complete b.s......I was also, as the front man, the one promoting these songs onstage and have the scars to show for it."
Mike Love autobiography (pg 242-243)
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« Reply #2117 on: October 14, 2020, 07:52:54 AM »

The accusations that Mike is jealous of Dennis music doesn't make any sense to me. Just a few years ago, the Made in California box set came out which was heavy with unreleased Dennis Wilson songs! The anti Mike rhetoric is getting old. Reminds me of the rumors that Mike fired Brian during the 50th anniversary. Proven to be untrue. However, it is true that Mike was disappointed that he was not allowed to work one on one with Brian. And Brian has stated in an interview that he does not like Mike at all. Mike believes that the people around Brian is what kept him from working alone with Brian. But I believe that Brian requested that his people keep Mike from working with him. Sad situation. Personally, I think the worst part of TWGMTR was the producer, Joe Thomas.

What's getting old is that *one* story of Mike participating in the "Made in California" set being used as evidence that he would never have an issue with Dennis or Dennis material, and as evidence that he always and would always be enthusiastic about archival releases, and I guess, that a MILLION other internal issues/politics wouldn't supersede any of that.

This ignores 60 years of band history and politics, including interviews *with* Mike where he discusses his affinity/enthusiasm, or lack thereof, concerning archival releases, album reissues, and really studio recording in general.



So you are just going to ignore all the things that have come out, like Sunshine Tomorrow and Wake the World? Also, Mike has stated many times that he likes the music from 67-73. His main beef was that they were poorly promoted. Especially by Capital in 68-69. He also helped promote the Smile Sessions 9 years ago.

I can't do anything to help you if you're going to be this ignorant of the band's history.

There are a THOUSAND political and personal issues within the band when it comes to this period of the band's history and their music. For that matter, those politics and the aforementioned "circular firing squad" are potentially *always* at play, even when it's about putting out a greatest hits compilation.

If you think the *only* issue or feeling Mike (or other members) would have about that era of material is simply that the band "was promoted poorly", then I would suggest more research and reading. No, of course it's not as simple as so-and-so just *hates* all of the material from a given era (well, that's true in some cases, but not in the case of 67-73 material). But there are a myriad of personal and business machinations involved, far beyond "well, I love the material, it's just a shame it wasn't promoted better!"

Anybody that has studied this and and its history knows the band's attitude towards archival projects, and should understand how lucky we are that there is an archival team pushing for this stuff behind the scenes, because these "copyright extension" sets being signed off on is in NO WAY evidence of an active championing of the material by some if not most members, and certainly is in no way evidence of what might happen with subsequent sets.

I know all about the bands history! I would like to point out that there is a difference between what Mike has said, and what Mike's critics have exaggerated what he has said. I know that Mike denies ever saying 'Don't F with the formula'. So rather than tell me that we know Mike is behind Feel Flows box not coming out because we have preconceived bias that it has to be him. Please send me a link to prove that Mike has said any such thing, or evem those close to Mike. I will not buy into hypatheticals or rumors. I know that I haven't read everything on this topic, so maybe I missed it.
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"Over the years, I've been accused of not supporting our new music from this era (67-73) and just wanting to play our hits. That's complete b.s......I was also, as the front man, the one promoting these songs onstage and have the scars to show for it."
Mike Love autobiography (pg 242-243)
HeyJude
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« Reply #2118 on: October 14, 2020, 08:47:40 AM »

Question from a poster naive both on the business aspect of these releases and just how much Dennis material is involved.

Hypothetically, if the equivalent of a disc is removed from a box set, is the price drop substantial? I think the price of $100 has been tossed around so could it be $95 minus one disc (not worth quibbling) compared to the more attractive, say, $65?

Just wondering if 壮omebody is thinking of sales numbers in the market rather than what the market wants?

The issue of Dennis material doesn't have anything to do with trying to lower the size/cost of the set. I'm not even sure it would result in a disc being eliminated from the total disc count; it would depend on how material is reshuffled.

Either way, this is not an issue. I don't think any potential price points tossed around are anything more than speculation.
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« Reply #2119 on: October 14, 2020, 09:01:47 AM »

I know all about the bands history! I would like to point out that there is a difference between what Mike has said, and what Mike's critics have exaggerated what he has said. I know that Mike denies ever saying 'Don't F with the formula'. So rather than tell me that we know Mike is behind Feel Flows box not coming out because we have preconceived bias that it has to be him. Please send me a link to prove that Mike has said any such thing, or evem those close to Mike. I will not buy into hypatheticals or rumors. I know that I haven't read everything on this topic, so maybe I missed it.

Things have become much more calm in the last day or two on this thread, so I don't want to go back to that place again over re-litigating the same thing over and over.

If you know the history of the band, you should know very well both the myriad of politics as well as their level of interest/motivation in *actively making archival releases happen*.

I can't show very many quotes from band members on this subject, *and that's the point*. They rarely talk about it, especially outside of occasional quick promotional blitzes during the release of sets.

But there is no interview with Mike Love where, unprompted, he talks about the amazing archive of unreleased 70s material, let alone why it should be released.

We have the most recent interview with Mike from recent weeks/months where he's given a big, easy soft ball opportunity to talk about "Feel Flows", and he ignores it and minimizes what's even in the vaults.

There's the 1992 Goldmine interview where the interviewer seems amused with how little Mike knows or cares about reissues in general, and Mike seems annoyed the interviewer finds it amusing.

Speaking more generally about band attitudes in latter eras about the early 70s material, certainly Brian, Al, and Bruce have all spoken more often and more fondly of that era/material.

If what you're looking for is a Mike interview where he confirms *anything* about "Feel Flows", whether it's the existence of it, or who might be blocking it, or what material might be deleted by whom, then OBVIOUSLY such quotes don't exist. If you want to think all of the discussion on this set has been born of zero legit info and it's all speculation, that's your choice. But I assure folks, what I've said and what Howie and Jon have discussed is the real deal. I don't think anybody should have to explain for the 87th time why folks can't name every detail or every name when it comes to this stuff.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 12:33:17 PM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #2120 on: October 14, 2020, 11:14:36 AM »

The 登ther board is denying Mike said 電on稚 f*** with the formula for crying out loud.... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2121 on: October 14, 2020, 11:59:16 AM »

The 登ther board is denying Mike said 電on稚 f*** with the formula for crying out loud.... Roll Eyes

I haven't been on another Beach Boys board. Lol! I was just giving an example of something that has become historical fact in many people's minds when it may not be. It may be Mike that is blocking the release of the Feel Flows box. I would state that Mike was more involved in Sunflower/Surfs Up than he was Friends. But we did get the Wake the World sessions. That made less financial sense than a Sunflower/Surfs Up sessions. Isn't Mike business minded and thus more likely to sign off on this than the 1968 sessions? Hopefully there is just a hold up/discussion on what material will be on it. I would like to see Sweet and Bitter and My Solution on there. Smiley If there is more unreleased Dennis material that is unreleased, I would love to have that too. But if they are trying to cut 10 or 15 tracks, I wouldn't mind cutting songs we already have such as Lady, Wouldn't it be Nice to Live Again, Sounds of Free, etc.
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"Over the years, I've been accused of not supporting our new music from this era (67-73) and just wanting to play our hits. That's complete b.s......I was also, as the front man, the one promoting these songs onstage and have the scars to show for it."
Mike Love autobiography (pg 242-243)
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« Reply #2122 on: October 14, 2020, 12:17:49 PM »

The 登ther board is denying Mike said 電on稚 f*** with the formula for crying out loud.... Roll Eyes

Mike DIDN'T say it -- it was something someone else said ABOUT Mike, which has stuck to him.
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« Reply #2123 on: October 14, 2020, 12:27:05 PM »

The 登ther board is denying Mike said 電on稚 f*** with the formula for crying out loud.... Roll Eyes

Mike DIDN'T say it -- it was something someone else said ABOUT Mike, which has stuck to him.

Arguing about Mike having not literally said those words is kind of missing the point in like 99% of the discussions it comes up in. Yes, it's important for the historical record to highlight that the actual literal quote isn't confirmed. I won't go into the weeds about how it's quite possible he *did* say it but doesn't remember, or that he said something similar but doesn't remember it, or that it was a case of someone paraphrasing a sentiment he expressed, etc.

But the reason this comes up all the time is because the quote certainly *does* reflect the attitude Mike had about the band at various points over the years. HIS OWN WORDS in interviews indicate as such. He has expressed that he was concerned about alienating the fan base that liked the old stuff. It's not even a completely unfounded concern!

But if someone is like "Hrrm, well, maybe Mike has an aversion to this or that because of the 'don't f**k with the formula' thing", a response that "Nobody can prove he said that exact quote!" is missing the point.

Sure, if someone is trying to attempt to explain how Mike feels about material, it doesn't do any good to insist he literally said that exact phrase.

But "Mike never said don't f**k with the foruma" is kind of like "Mike didn't fire Brian in 2012!" It's like, yes, yes, anybody whose opinion actually matters knows those things aren't actually literally true. But they both speak to more broad issues/sentiments/events.
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HeyJude
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« Reply #2124 on: October 14, 2020, 12:31:08 PM »

I would state that Mike was more involved in Sunflower/Surfs Up than he was Friends. But we did get the Wake the World sessions. That made less financial sense than a Sunflower/Surfs Up sessions. Isn't Mike business minded and thus more likely to sign off on this than the 1968 sessions?

No. Or rather, "no, not necessarily."

The politics surrounding the band and its history and its attitude towards various ears of the band's career are much more complicated.

I get it that some people want to try to deconstruct this stuff and simplify it. But no, it is nowhere near as simple as "Mike's a bottom-line business kind of guy, so why would he block something that would make money?", nor as simple as "Mike signed off on X, so why would he not sign off on Y?"

The band, collectively and individually, have ignored/turned down/missed many, many, many great business and professional opportunities over the years, for many, many reasons.
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