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Author Topic: Feel Flows box set  (Read 202707 times)
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« Reply #2050 on: October 12, 2020, 03:32:52 PM »

because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

THIS. EVERYBODY READ ABOVE.

You've seemingly accidentally stumbled across a main crux of what's going on in this thread.

It offers a perfect explanation for why people in the know who want this set out would WANT FANS TO KNOW that Dennis songs are/were on the set, and also a very good explanation for why some parties would surely NOT want folks to ever have known that Dennis material was on it, or that it was sitting there ready to go for eons.

I just can't wrap my head around a fan, a *real* fan of the band, of its entire history, being told "Hey, guess what, there was going to be a bunch of Dennis material on this boxed set", and then told that the material might be deleted, and then to come away with a reaction of "Well, gee, I wouldn't have known the stuff was there in the first place if someone hadn't told me, so what's the big deal?"

Aint that the truth, HJ. And it seems that if someone has the below mindset about Mike:

He's a part of the band! He should have a say!  

that such a mindset would in theory be based on what's morally, ethically appropriate, with the person presumably believing that all members of this band should simply "have a say". Well guess what? DENNIS CARL WILSON was a member of this band! He's just unfortunately not living, but ya know, if we're going to look at this from a purely "moral" or "ethical" manner, Dennis and his estate should have a say.

But due to tragic circumstances that are well documented (with his shares being sold), they don't. And that doesn't magically "make it right", so this would seemingly put the original mindset into some sort of moral conundrum.  So is that mindset then going to morphs into "sorry Dennis is no longer living, but what I really mean is that all living members should have a say, and as for Dennis's estate selling his shares way back then, well womp womp tough sh*t"?"

There's no real middle ground on that. It's an appalling thing to think if anyone has that mindset. Mike clearly does, and has historically taken full advantage of which Wilsons are living or not in order to build up his dream egofied version of the band. Just because things happened to have evolved into the current situation due to circumstances, doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean we have to defend the current power structure that's allowing the mutilation and butchering of DW's material.

Annnnnnnd we're back to projecting our feelings onto other people. And now we're projecting our feelings onto Dennis Wilson.

Do you really truly think Dennis would sit idly by, if he was here, and let all of his material be removed? Please actually answer the question, I feel a duck/dodge coming on.

Well, he recorded it in 1970 and 1971, he died in 1983, and it never came out. So, I have absolutely no clue what he thinks of that material. Do I know for a fact that he loved it and deemed it worthy for release? Absofreakinlutely not. Do I know for a fact that he didn't never wanted it to be released? Absofreakinlutely not.

I have no idea. You have no idea.

I'd love to hear it. But my argument for hearing it absolutely is not going to be, "Dennis wanted me to hear it!"

At minimum, I think it's rich to think that he'd be anything but incensed that of all people, it would be Mike who would be throwing weight behind removing the material.

Maybe. Maybe not. I have no idea. You don't either. You feel that way, and you're projecting your feelings back onto Dennis.

You can want to hear the material without an attempt to evoke emotion by mentioning Dennis' name.
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« Reply #2051 on: October 12, 2020, 03:33:52 PM »

I'm certainly in the minority here, and while I respect the work people like Howie and Jon have done for the band, if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester.

It feels like this thread/fanbase/forum has turned it, "Listen, you're either for Feel Flows and on the side of Jon Stebbins and Howie Edelson or you're with Mike Love!"

I'd love to get the complete Feel Flows package. But as I've said previously, it seems like those most passionate to get it out into the ether is the fanbase, not the band. And yeah, it sucks that Mike Love (why won't anyone on the "inside" actually say his name? Who are they fooling?) doesn't want a handful of solo Dennis tracks in the box. But am I going to lose my mind and never listen to a song penned by "someone who doesn't want solo Dennis songs on a box set" again? No. I'll still buy the box and enjoy what's being put out there, because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

I swear some people on this board hate Mike Love more than they like the freaking Beach Boys.

He's a part of the band! He should have a say! Jon, Howie, HeyJude and the rest of us aren't. We all chose to like a band fronted by Mike Love. There's consequences that come with it.

While it's impossible to go into specifics right now, I think your characterization of a "handful" is not accurate. What if it was all, or virtually all?

Also, wanting Dennis material on the boxed set does not preclude appreciating Mike's contribution to the band. To suggest so is a slap in the face to the people who work on these sets, who speak *directly* to Mike and all of the band members. And to fans for that matter.

As to the rest of the "everybody hates Mike Love" stuff, it's been said a thousand times. Apart from the occasional troll, nobody here hates Mike. They want Mike's material on this boxed set!


Guys, enough with the "slap in the face to people who work on these sets." They're not storming the beach at Normandy, for Christ's sake. They're working on a Beach Boys anthology.

At this point this is just trolling.

Disagreeing with someone isn't trolling. I'm just not going to overdramatize and participate in groupthink.
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« Reply #2052 on: October 12, 2020, 03:34:09 PM »

Knowing how unmotivated the band has been forever when it comes to pushing archival releases (and more specifically *recognizing* the intrinsic value of their archive), and knowing the political minefield that the BB world always has been and always will be, and then knowing the people working on these sets who navigate *all of that*, I have to say it's a d*ck move to react to a few positive comments about them by saying "they're not storming the beach at Normandy."

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« Reply #2053 on: October 12, 2020, 03:35:41 PM »

Well, he recorded it in 1970 and 1971, he died in 1983, and it never came out. So, I have absolutely no clue what he thinks of that material. Do I know for a fact that he loved it and deemed it worthy for release? Absofreakinlutely not. Do I know for a fact that he never wanted it to be released? Absofreakinlutely not.

I have no idea. You have no idea.

I'd love to hear it. But my argument for hearing it absolutely is not going to be, "Dennis wanted me to hear it!"

All of this is missing the point. Nobody is saying Dennis wanted us to hear this stuff. For the millionth time as I've been saying, NONE of the band members have taken a strong shine to spearheading archival releases.

They used to do mine old stuff for "new" albums back a million years ago when they were still an actual recording act.

Now they're a trademark and a holding company, with a vault full of a cache of unreleased material that bests ANY band's out there. By leaps and bounds.

As has been with past archival releases, there are folks trying to get this stuff released. That's why it happens. They do all the work, and then convince the band to let it happen.

That's what's happening now, only for a plethora of reasons, it's hitting a bunch of snags, snags that might be untangled if the band knows that fans know what's going on.

If your ethos when it comes to BB releases is "Meh, whatever. If it ends up released then I'll enjoy it", then there's no need to discuss the work others are trying to do to make it happen, and you can just sit back and fold your arms and wait for something (or nothing) to appear.

Nobody is saying that? Yes. Someone is saying that. It's CenturyDeprived. He's saying that.
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« Reply #2054 on: October 12, 2020, 03:37:25 PM »

I'm certainly in the minority here, and while I respect the work people like Howie and Jon have done for the band, if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester.

It feels like this thread/fanbase/forum has turned it, "Listen, you're either for Feel Flows and on the side of Jon Stebbins and Howie Edelson or you're with Mike Love!"

I'd love to get the complete Feel Flows package. But as I've said previously, it seems like those most passionate to get it out into the ether is the fanbase, not the band. And yeah, it sucks that Mike Love (why won't anyone on the "inside" actually say his name? Who are they fooling?) doesn't want a handful of solo Dennis tracks in the box. But am I going to lose my mind and never listen to a song penned by "someone who doesn't want solo Dennis songs on a box set" again? No. I'll still buy the box and enjoy what's being put out there, because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

I swear some people on this board hate Mike Love more than they like the freaking Beach Boys.

He's a part of the band! He should have a say! Jon, Howie, HeyJude and the rest of us aren't. We all chose to like a band fronted by Mike Love. There's consequences that come with it.

While it's impossible to go into specifics right now, I think your characterization of a "handful" is not accurate. What if it was all, or virtually all?

Also, wanting Dennis material on the boxed set does not preclude appreciating Mike's contribution to the band. To suggest so is a slap in the face to the people who work on these sets, who speak *directly* to Mike and all of the band members. And to fans for that matter.

As to the rest of the "everybody hates Mike Love" stuff, it's been said a thousand times. Apart from the occasional troll, nobody here hates Mike. They want Mike's material on this boxed set!


Guys, enough with the "slap in the face to people who work on these sets." They're not storming the beach at Normandy, for Christ's sake. They're working on a Beach Boys anthology.

At this point this is just trolling.

Disagreeing with someone isn't trolling. I'm just not going to overdramatize and participate in groupthink.

Nah, I'm gonna stick with calling it what amounts to trolling. You have stated that you could essentially take or leave this set. So all you're doing is arguing semantics about your opinion of what does or doesn't carry weight or meaning in this discussion.

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« Reply #2055 on: October 12, 2020, 03:41:11 PM »

Knowing how unmotivated the band has been forever when it comes to pushing archival releases (and more specifically *recognizing* the intrinsic value of their archive), and knowing the political minefield that the BB world always has been and always will be, and then knowing the people working on these sets who navigate *all of that*, I have to say it's a d*ck move to react to a few positive comments about them by saying "they're not storming the beach at Normandy."



To take what I said as a "slap in the face to the people who work on these sets" was a dramatic mischaracterization, and it's what goes on over and over and over and over and over on this board.

Someone says something you disagree with. And then it becomes disrespectful to this person, this person, this person and this person.

I'll just boil this down again. I appreciate everyone's efforts in compiling these archival releases. It's awesome.

But Mike is in the band. And if he doesn't want something to represent the band that he helped form 59 years ago, then who the hell am I to call him a bastard and tell him it should?
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« Reply #2056 on: October 12, 2020, 03:42:54 PM »

Well, he recorded it in 1970 and 1971, he died in 1983, and it never came out. So, I have absolutely no clue what he thinks of that material. Do I know for a fact that he loved it and deemed it worthy for release? Absofreakinlutely not. Do I know for a fact that he never wanted it to be released? Absofreakinlutely not.

I have no idea. You have no idea.

I'd love to hear it. But my argument for hearing it absolutely is not going to be, "Dennis wanted me to hear it!"

All of this is missing the point. Nobody is saying Dennis wanted us to hear this stuff. For the millionth time as I've been saying, NONE of the band members have taken a strong shine to spearheading archival releases.

They used to do mine old stuff for "new" albums back a million years ago when they were still an actual recording act.

Now they're a trademark and a holding company, with a vault full of a cache of unreleased material that bests ANY band's out there. By leaps and bounds.

As has been with past archival releases, there are folks trying to get this stuff released. That's why it happens. They do all the work, and then convince the band to let it happen.

That's what's happening now, only for a plethora of reasons, it's hitting a bunch of snags, snags that might be untangled if the band knows that fans know what's going on.

If your ethos when it comes to BB releases is "Meh, whatever. If it ends up released then I'll enjoy it", then there's no need to discuss the work others are trying to do to make it happen, and you can just sit back and fold your arms and wait for something (or nothing) to appear.

Nobody is saying that? Yes. Someone is saying that. It's CenturyDeprived. He's saying that.

No, nobody asserted that they know Dennis wanted this material released or heard.

Indeed, we *all know* that none of the members wanted this stuff released or heard at the time. That's why it's UNRELEASED.

He was asking the seemingly semi-rhetorical question of "Does anybody think if Dennis were alive that he'd just say "meh, whatever" if all of his material was removed from this set?"

It's obviously an unanswerable hypothetical question.  All else being equal, if Dennis were still part of the BRI mechanism and of a similar position as the other members, I don't think it's crazy to think that, once he had been open to archival releases, that he wouldn't support another member trying to nix all of his material on the set.

I don't think anybody thinks "What would Dennis have wanted?" is like the ultimate, mic-drop question to post regarding this set. But isn't it something to add to the equation a little bit? Especially since his estate doesn't have any corporate share anymore, and his heirs seem to, at least in some cases, have a pretty hands-off approach to Dennis's legacy at this point?

I'm not trying to be overly-dramatic, but someone should be fighting for Dennis. Jon Stebbins has done a lot of that lifting over the years. Is it so difficult for fans to simply say "hrmmm, I don't think his stuff should be removed from this set"?
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« Reply #2057 on: October 12, 2020, 03:44:18 PM »

I'm certainly in the minority here, and while I respect the work people like Howie and Jon have done for the band, if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester.

It feels like this thread/fanbase/forum has turned it, "Listen, you're either for Feel Flows and on the side of Jon Stebbins and Howie Edelson or you're with Mike Love!"

I'd love to get the complete Feel Flows package. But as I've said previously, it seems like those most passionate to get it out into the ether is the fanbase, not the band. And yeah, it sucks that Mike Love (why won't anyone on the "inside" actually say his name? Who are they fooling?) doesn't want a handful of solo Dennis tracks in the box. But am I going to lose my mind and never listen to a song penned by "someone who doesn't want solo Dennis songs on a box set" again? No. I'll still buy the box and enjoy what's being put out there, because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

I swear some people on this board hate Mike Love more than they like the freaking Beach Boys.

He's a part of the band! He should have a say! Jon, Howie, HeyJude and the rest of us aren't. We all chose to like a band fronted by Mike Love. There's consequences that come with it.

While it's impossible to go into specifics right now, I think your characterization of a "handful" is not accurate. What if it was all, or virtually all?

Also, wanting Dennis material on the boxed set does not preclude appreciating Mike's contribution to the band. To suggest so is a slap in the face to the people who work on these sets, who speak *directly* to Mike and all of the band members. And to fans for that matter.

As to the rest of the "everybody hates Mike Love" stuff, it's been said a thousand times. Apart from the occasional troll, nobody here hates Mike. They want Mike's material on this boxed set!


Guys, enough with the "slap in the face to people who work on these sets." They're not storming the beach at Normandy, for Christ's sake. They're working on a Beach Boys anthology.

At this point this is just trolling.

Disagreeing with someone isn't trolling. I'm just not going to overdramatize and participate in groupthink.

Nah, I'm gonna stick with calling it what amounts to trolling. You have stated that you could essentially take or leave this set. So all you're doing is arguing semantics about your opinion of what does or doesn't carry weight or meaning in this discussion.



Can you point to where I stated I could "essentially take or leave this set?"

We're all doing the same thing! You're also "arguing semantics about your opinion of what does and doesn't carry weight or meaning in this discussion." You just think your opinion is more valuable than mine. So, mine is "trolling."
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« Reply #2058 on: October 12, 2020, 03:46:02 PM »

Knowing how unmotivated the band has been forever when it comes to pushing archival releases (and more specifically *recognizing* the intrinsic value of their archive), and knowing the political minefield that the BB world always has been and always will be, and then knowing the people working on these sets who navigate *all of that*, I have to say it's a d*ck move to react to a few positive comments about them by saying "they're not storming the beach at Normandy."



To take what I said as a "slap in the face to the people who work on these sets" was a dramatic mischaracterization, and it's what goes on over and over and over and over and over on this board.

Someone says something you disagree with. And then it becomes disrespectful to this person, this person, this person and this person.

I'll just boil this down again. I appreciate everyone's efforts in compiling these archival releases. It's awesome.

But Mike is in the band. And if he doesn't want something to represent the band that he helped form 59 years ago, then who the hell am I to call him a bastard and tell him it should?

Sounds like you're not a fan of the board, and seem to think fans lamenting the potential deletion of amazing music on a boxed set (lamenting being very different from "calling a bastard") is needless/ridiculous/overly dramatic. What's left to say in this thread then?
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« Reply #2059 on: October 12, 2020, 03:47:32 PM »

Well, he recorded it in 1970 and 1971, he died in 1983, and it never came out. So, I have absolutely no clue what he thinks of that material. Do I know for a fact that he loved it and deemed it worthy for release? Absofreakinlutely not. Do I know for a fact that he never wanted it to be released? Absofreakinlutely not.

I have no idea. You have no idea.

I'd love to hear it. But my argument for hearing it absolutely is not going to be, "Dennis wanted me to hear it!"

All of this is missing the point. Nobody is saying Dennis wanted us to hear this stuff. For the millionth time as I've been saying, NONE of the band members have taken a strong shine to spearheading archival releases.

They used to do mine old stuff for "new" albums back a million years ago when they were still an actual recording act.

Now they're a trademark and a holding company, with a vault full of a cache of unreleased material that bests ANY band's out there. By leaps and bounds.

As has been with past archival releases, there are folks trying to get this stuff released. That's why it happens. They do all the work, and then convince the band to let it happen.

That's what's happening now, only for a plethora of reasons, it's hitting a bunch of snags, snags that might be untangled if the band knows that fans know what's going on.

If your ethos when it comes to BB releases is "Meh, whatever. If it ends up released then I'll enjoy it", then there's no need to discuss the work others are trying to do to make it happen, and you can just sit back and fold your arms and wait for something (or nothing) to appear.

Nobody is saying that? Yes. Someone is saying that. It's CenturyDeprived. He's saying that.

No, nobody asserted that they know Dennis wanted this material released or heard.

Indeed, we *all know* that none of the members wanted this stuff released or heard at the time. That's why it's UNRELEASED.

He was asking the seemingly semi-rhetorical question of "Does anybody think if Dennis were alive that he'd just say "meh, whatever" if all of his material was removed from this set?"

It's obviously an unanswerable hypothetical question.  All else being equal, if Dennis were still part of the BRI mechanism and of a similar position as the other members, I don't think it's crazy to think that, once he had been open to archival releases, that he wouldn't support another member trying to nix all of his material on the set.

I don't think anybody thinks "What would Dennis have wanted?" is like the ultimate, mic-drop question to post regarding this set. But isn't it something to add to the equation a little bit? Especially since his estate doesn't have any corporate share anymore, and his heirs seem to, at least in some cases, have a pretty hands-off approach to Dennis's legacy at this point?

I'm not trying to be overly-dramatic, but someone should be fighting for Dennis. Jon Stebbins has done a lot of that lifting over the years. Is it so difficult for fans to simply say "hrmmm, I don't think his stuff should be removed from this set"?
If that's all it was, then sure.

But god knows how many pages ago, it was all about, "what would Al and the Wilsons and Dennis' family think of this?" rather than, "I don't think his stuff should be removed from the set."

It's the overdramatization and projection onto important people that I'm tired of.
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« Reply #2060 on: October 12, 2020, 03:48:19 PM »

I'm certainly in the minority here, and while I respect the work people like Howie and Jon have done for the band, if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester.

It feels like this thread/fanbase/forum has turned it, "Listen, you're either for Feel Flows and on the side of Jon Stebbins and Howie Edelson or you're with Mike Love!"

I'd love to get the complete Feel Flows package. But as I've said previously, it seems like those most passionate to get it out into the ether is the fanbase, not the band. And yeah, it sucks that Mike Love (why won't anyone on the "inside" actually say his name? Who are they fooling?) doesn't want a handful of solo Dennis tracks in the box. But am I going to lose my mind and never listen to a song penned by "someone who doesn't want solo Dennis songs on a box set" again? No. I'll still buy the box and enjoy what's being put out there, because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

I swear some people on this board hate Mike Love more than they like the freaking Beach Boys.

He's a part of the band! He should have a say! Jon, Howie, HeyJude and the rest of us aren't. We all chose to like a band fronted by Mike Love. There's consequences that come with it.

While it's impossible to go into specifics right now, I think your characterization of a "handful" is not accurate. What if it was all, or virtually all?

Also, wanting Dennis material on the boxed set does not preclude appreciating Mike's contribution to the band. To suggest so is a slap in the face to the people who work on these sets, who speak *directly* to Mike and all of the band members. And to fans for that matter.

As to the rest of the "everybody hates Mike Love" stuff, it's been said a thousand times. Apart from the occasional troll, nobody here hates Mike. They want Mike's material on this boxed set!

z

Guys, enough with the "slap in the face to people who work on these sets." They're not storming the beach at Normandy, for Christ's sake. They're working on a Beach Boys anthology.


On second thought, I take back what I said earlier about who it was directed to and wasn’t directed to 😒
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Free Feel Flows!!!!

Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





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« Reply #2061 on: October 12, 2020, 03:51:47 PM »

I can't even keep track of this thread anymore - it's no wonder people are confused. Is there some way to have a separate sticky which just shows the key info from Howie and Jon? It's natural that this thread has gotten emotional and bloated, but it's also important that more people pick up on the key info being presented to us.

Honestly not sure why anyone would the need to turn this into a Mike sympathy jerk. I appreciate Mike's contributions to the band. I appreciate Dennis' too. I think to obscure the significance of either as an artist is a crime. In this case, it just so happens that the former appears to be trying to obscure the latter. Unfortunate, but of course I'm going to advocate for Dennis' stuff to be released. It shouldn't be a binary situation, as much as some would like to turn it into one.

Stebbins hit the nail on the head re: speculators trying to find logic or consistency here. Time passes and people change. Mike advocated for Sound of Free and Lady to come out on MIC even though those weren't strictly Beach Boys songs. Since then he's spent several years selling others (and himself) the story that Dennis' sole contribution around 1969 was to bring Charles Manson into the fold, including the unverified allegation that Dennis witnessed a murder and didn't report it to the police (something Mike also never followed up on or even revealed until conveniently wishing to promote his book). Not wanting to speculate too far, but it seems Mike has a deep seated need to control the narrative around the Beach Boys as a historical phenomenon - the more primary source material comes out relating to this period, the less control he has over the narrative.
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« Reply #2062 on: October 12, 2020, 03:54:46 PM »

I'm certainly in the minority here, and while I respect the work people like Howie and Jon have done for the band, if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester.

It feels like this thread/fanbase/forum has turned it, "Listen, you're either for Feel Flows and on the side of Jon Stebbins and Howie Edelson or you're with Mike Love!"

I'd love to get the complete Feel Flows package. But as I've said previously, it seems like those most passionate to get it out into the ether is the fanbase, not the band. And yeah, it sucks that Mike Love (why won't anyone on the "inside" actually say his name? Who are they fooling?) doesn't want a handful of solo Dennis tracks in the box. But am I going to lose my mind and never listen to a song penned by "someone who doesn't want solo Dennis songs on a box set" again? No. I'll still buy the box and enjoy what's being put out there, because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

I swear some people on this board hate Mike Love more than they like the freaking Beach Boys.

He's a part of the band! He should have a say! Jon, Howie, HeyJude and the rest of us aren't. We all chose to like a band fronted by Mike Love. There's consequences that come with it.

While it's impossible to go into specifics right now, I think your characterization of a "handful" is not accurate. What if it was all, or virtually all?

Also, wanting Dennis material on the boxed set does not preclude appreciating Mike's contribution to the band. To suggest so is a slap in the face to the people who work on these sets, who speak *directly* to Mike and all of the band members. And to fans for that matter.

As to the rest of the "everybody hates Mike Love" stuff, it's been said a thousand times. Apart from the occasional troll, nobody here hates Mike. They want Mike's material on this boxed set!


Guys, enough with the "slap in the face to people who work on these sets." They're not storming the beach at Normandy, for Christ's sake. They're working on a Beach Boys anthology.

At this point this is just trolling.

Disagreeing with someone isn't trolling. I'm just not going to overdramatize and participate in groupthink.

Nah, I'm gonna stick with calling it what amounts to trolling. You have stated that you could essentially take or leave this set. So all you're doing is arguing semantics about your opinion of what does or doesn't carry weight or meaning in this discussion.



Can you point to where I stated I could "essentially take or leave this set?"

We're all doing the same thing! You're also "arguing semantics about your opinion of what does and doesn't carry weight or meaning in this discussion." You just think your opinion is more valuable than mine. So, mine is "trolling."

I have information you don't. It's not your fault, and I understand the frustration with the level of information that can be dispensed. I guess what I'm saying is that I can't expect you to know that my input regarding this set is more informed than yours. But in this one case, it is.

You seem to not be particularly troubled with the idea of this set not coming out. You seem to be much more interested in and energized by criticizing how others *do care* about it.

So yeah, it's effectively trolling I think.
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« Reply #2063 on: October 12, 2020, 03:58:50 PM »

Well, he recorded it in 1970 and 1971, he died in 1983, and it never came out. So, I have absolutely no clue what he thinks of that material. Do I know for a fact that he loved it and deemed it worthy for release? Absofreakinlutely not. Do I know for a fact that he never wanted it to be released? Absofreakinlutely not.

I have no idea. You have no idea.

I'd love to hear it. But my argument for hearing it absolutely is not going to be, "Dennis wanted me to hear it!"

All of this is missing the point. Nobody is saying Dennis wanted us to hear this stuff. For the millionth time as I've been saying, NONE of the band members have taken a strong shine to spearheading archival releases.

They used to do mine old stuff for "new" albums back a million years ago when they were still an actual recording act.

Now they're a trademark and a holding company, with a vault full of a cache of unreleased material that bests ANY band's out there. By leaps and bounds.

As has been with past archival releases, there are folks trying to get this stuff released. That's why it happens. They do all the work, and then convince the band to let it happen.

That's what's happening now, only for a plethora of reasons, it's hitting a bunch of snags, snags that might be untangled if the band knows that fans know what's going on.

If your ethos when it comes to BB releases is "Meh, whatever. If it ends up released then I'll enjoy it", then there's no need to discuss the work others are trying to do to make it happen, and you can just sit back and fold your arms and wait for something (or nothing) to appear.

Nobody is saying that? Yes. Someone is saying that. It's CenturyDeprived. He's saying that.

No, nobody asserted that they know Dennis wanted this material released or heard.

Indeed, we *all know* that none of the members wanted this stuff released or heard at the time. That's why it's UNRELEASED.

He was asking the seemingly semi-rhetorical question of "Does anybody think if Dennis were alive that he'd just say "meh, whatever" if all of his material was removed from this set?"

It's obviously an unanswerable hypothetical question.  All else being equal, if Dennis were still part of the BRI mechanism and of a similar position as the other members, I don't think it's crazy to think that, once he had been open to archival releases, that he wouldn't support another member trying to nix all of his material on the set.

I don't think anybody thinks "What would Dennis have wanted?" is like the ultimate, mic-drop question to post regarding this set. But isn't it something to add to the equation a little bit? Especially since his estate doesn't have any corporate share anymore, and his heirs seem to, at least in some cases, have a pretty hands-off approach to Dennis's legacy at this point?

I'm not trying to be overly-dramatic, but someone should be fighting for Dennis. Jon Stebbins has done a lot of that lifting over the years. Is it so difficult for fans to simply say "hrmmm, I don't think his stuff should be removed from this set"?
If that's all it was, then sure.

But god knows how many pages ago, it was all about, "what would Al and the Wilsons and Dennis' family think of this?" rather than, "I don't think his stuff should be removed from the set."

It's the overdramatization and projection onto important people that I'm tired of.

I think you just have a fixation about what you feel (incorrectly in my opinion) is "projection" (a term you've used many times now), and seem to find the evocation of "what would so-and-so think/do?" to be a pet peeve.

You also seem to find calling someone out for nixing material to be overly dramatic.

All obviously your prerogative, but it seems like there isn't anything left for you to add to this discussion on the topic of the set. You seem to be talking about the people talking about it now. I get it, this happens all the time on boards. But after awhile, it does feel like trolling.
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« Reply #2064 on: October 12, 2020, 04:00:10 PM »

Note for, Hey Jude

Yes, I did miss that post of Howies concerning Dennis's material. I consider him credible of course.

Peace

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« Reply #2065 on: October 12, 2020, 04:01:38 PM »

I'm certainly in the minority here, and while I respect the work people like Howie and Jon have done for the band, if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester.

It feels like this thread/fanbase/forum has turned it, "Listen, you're either for Feel Flows and on the side of Jon Stebbins and Howie Edelson or you're with Mike Love!"

I'd love to get the complete Feel Flows package. But as I've said previously, it seems like those most passionate to get it out into the ether is the fanbase, not the band. And yeah, it sucks that Mike Love (why won't anyone on the "inside" actually say his name? Who are they fooling?) doesn't want a handful of solo Dennis tracks in the box. But am I going to lose my mind and never listen to a song penned by "someone who doesn't want solo Dennis songs on a box set" again? No. I'll still buy the box and enjoy what's being put out there, because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

I swear some people on this board hate Mike Love more than they like the freaking Beach Boys.

He's a part of the band! He should have a say! Jon, Howie, HeyJude and the rest of us aren't. We all chose to like a band fronted by Mike Love. There's consequences that come with it.

While it's impossible to go into specifics right now, I think your characterization of a "handful" is not accurate. What if it was all, or virtually all?

Also, wanting Dennis material on the boxed set does not preclude appreciating Mike's contribution to the band. To suggest so is a slap in the face to the people who work on these sets, who speak *directly* to Mike and all of the band members. And to fans for that matter.

As to the rest of the "everybody hates Mike Love" stuff, it's been said a thousand times. Apart from the occasional troll, nobody here hates Mike. They want Mike's material on this boxed set!


Guys, enough with the "slap in the face to people who work on these sets." They're not storming the beach at Normandy, for Christ's sake. They're working on a Beach Boys anthology.

At this point this is just trolling.

Disagreeing with someone isn't trolling. I'm just not going to overdramatize and participate in groupthink.

Nah, I'm gonna stick with calling it what amounts to trolling. You have stated that you could essentially take or leave this set. So all you're doing is arguing semantics about your opinion of what does or doesn't carry weight or meaning in this discussion.



Can you point to where I stated I could "essentially take or leave this set?"

We're all doing the same thing! You're also "arguing semantics about your opinion of what does and doesn't carry weight or meaning in this discussion." You just think your opinion is more valuable than mine. So, mine is "trolling."

I have information you don't. It's not your fault, and I understand the frustration with the level of information that can be dispensed. I guess what I'm saying is that I can't expect you to know that my input regarding this set is more informed than yours. But in this one case, it is.

You seem to not be particularly troubled with the idea of this set not coming out. You seem to be much more interested in and energized by criticizing how others *do care* about it.

So yeah, it's effectively trolling I think.

OK, so now I'll ask you to "point to where I stated I could 'essentially take or leave this set'" again and ask you to point to where I "seem to not be particularly troubled with the idea of this set not coming out."

I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish here, but when you start lying about things people have and haven't posted and twisting their words, it gets pretty weird.
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« Reply #2066 on: October 12, 2020, 04:06:03 PM »

Well, he recorded it in 1970 and 1971, he died in 1983, and it never came out. So, I have absolutely no clue what he thinks of that material. Do I know for a fact that he loved it and deemed it worthy for release? Absofreakinlutely not. Do I know for a fact that he never wanted it to be released? Absofreakinlutely not.

I have no idea. You have no idea.

I'd love to hear it. But my argument for hearing it absolutely is not going to be, "Dennis wanted me to hear it!"

All of this is missing the point. Nobody is saying Dennis wanted us to hear this stuff. For the millionth time as I've been saying, NONE of the band members have taken a strong shine to spearheading archival releases.

They used to do mine old stuff for "new" albums back a million years ago when they were still an actual recording act.

Now they're a trademark and a holding company, with a vault full of a cache of unreleased material that bests ANY band's out there. By leaps and bounds.

As has been with past archival releases, there are folks trying to get this stuff released. That's why it happens. They do all the work, and then convince the band to let it happen.

That's what's happening now, only for a plethora of reasons, it's hitting a bunch of snags, snags that might be untangled if the band knows that fans know what's going on.

If your ethos when it comes to BB releases is "Meh, whatever. If it ends up released then I'll enjoy it", then there's no need to discuss the work others are trying to do to make it happen, and you can just sit back and fold your arms and wait for something (or nothing) to appear.

Nobody is saying that? Yes. Someone is saying that. It's CenturyDeprived. He's saying that.

No, nobody asserted that they know Dennis wanted this material released or heard.

Indeed, we *all know* that none of the members wanted this stuff released or heard at the time. That's why it's UNRELEASED.

He was asking the seemingly semi-rhetorical question of "Does anybody think if Dennis were alive that he'd just say "meh, whatever" if all of his material was removed from this set?"

It's obviously an unanswerable hypothetical question.  All else being equal, if Dennis were still part of the BRI mechanism and of a similar position as the other members, I don't think it's crazy to think that, once he had been open to archival releases, that he wouldn't support another member trying to nix all of his material on the set.

I don't think anybody thinks "What would Dennis have wanted?" is like the ultimate, mic-drop question to post regarding this set. But isn't it something to add to the equation a little bit? Especially since his estate doesn't have any corporate share anymore, and his heirs seem to, at least in some cases, have a pretty hands-off approach to Dennis's legacy at this point?

I'm not trying to be overly-dramatic, but someone should be fighting for Dennis. Jon Stebbins has done a lot of that lifting over the years. Is it so difficult for fans to simply say "hrmmm, I don't think his stuff should be removed from this set"?
If that's all it was, then sure.

But god knows how many pages ago, it was all about, "what would Al and the Wilsons and Dennis' family think of this?" rather than, "I don't think his stuff should be removed from the set."

It's the overdramatization and projection onto important people that I'm tired of.

I think you just have a fixation about what you feel (incorrectly in my opinion) is "projection" (a term you've used many times now), and seem to find the evocation of "what would so-and-so think/do?" to be a pet peeve.

You also seem to find calling someone out for nixing material to be overly dramatic.

All obviously your prerogative, but it seems like there isn't anything left for you to add to this discussion on the topic of the set. You seem to be talking about the people talking about it now. I get it, this happens all the time on boards. But after awhile, it does feel like trolling.

All right. Here's what this comes down to.

The insiders making everyone play the guessing game comes across as, for lack of a better term, douchey. Call that trolling if you want. I don't care. I can go back to not posting in here for months at a time.

As some background, I'm a journalist. There's plenty of things I know about my subject of expertise that I can't report publicly. Do I go into forums and make people guess what I know and don't know and then not tell them what is and isn't true? No, that would be extremely bizarre and narcissistic behavior.

Say what you know. Don't say what you can't. This doesn't seem that hard.
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« Reply #2067 on: October 12, 2020, 04:13:28 PM »

OK, so now I'll ask you to "point to where I stated I could 'essentially take or leave this set'" again and ask you to point to where I "seem to not be particularly troubled with the idea of this set not coming out."

I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish here, but when you start lying about things people have and haven't posted and twisting their words, it gets pretty weird.

It's not my job to do a copy and paste dissertation. Anybody can go back and read your posts and everybody else's. "Take or leave" is obviously a very loose paraphrasing/characterization. But yes, when someone says things like this:

"...if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester."

"If it so important to the Wilsons, Al and Dennis' sons that it gets released ... wouldn't it be out by now?"


It seems like those comments seem to come from a place of not being troubled by such material not being released. Sounds like you're okay with this set coming out, or not coming out. Hence "take it or leave it."
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« Reply #2068 on: October 12, 2020, 04:14:09 PM »

Y'know what -- I'm a journalist. I'm also a journalist who uses my real name.
I could reveal all I dig on all the bands I work with, but seeing as how I USE my name -- I can't -- nor would I (because I'm not an ass hole.)
Telling fans who would be the audience for a project I worked on details about the work -- but not connecting all the (highly political and still very much in play) dots doesn't make me a douche.

It makes me an adult.

Hopefully it all gets sorted out and we have this thing by shorts weather.
Let's not be dicks to each other about it.
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« Reply #2069 on: October 12, 2020, 04:15:34 PM »

Thank you Hey Jude, Jon Stebbins and Howie Edelson for the clarifications and trying to set the record straight and also trying to do it without burning bridges.
At this very moment, I think all we have to do is pray for the best to come: the set to be released in its original form without any changes.
I don’t hate Mike as some guys here has said. What I hate is his insistence to keep jealous towards Dennis as a person and also as an artist. Why he doesn’t want to put these differences aside (as a person who learned to meditate, advocate for it and spoke about its peaceful nature) and let the Dennis material to be released as originally intended in this case?
To put aside some negativity in favor of the band’s legacy would be a great thing, a great accomplishment.
I think that’s what we want, and we as fans also want to hear Mike’s material on this set!
Everybody in the band has the gifts in their songwriting, and certainly we want to hear them all: everybody shining through the music 🙂
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« Reply #2070 on: October 12, 2020, 04:19:26 PM »

Y'know what -- I'm a journalist. I'm also a journalist who uses my real name.
I could reveal all I dig on all the bands I work with, but seeing as how I USE my name -- I can't -- nor would I (because I'm not an ass hole.)
Telling fans who would be the audience for a project I worked on details about the work -- but not connecting all the (highly political and still very much in play) dots doesn't make me a douche.

It makes me an adult.

Hopefully it all gets sorted out and we have this thing by shorts weather.
Let's not be dicks to each other about it.

Yeah, HeyJude. Howie uses his real name.
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« Reply #2071 on: October 12, 2020, 04:20:21 PM »

All right. Here's what this comes down to.

The insiders making everyone play the guessing game comes across as, for lack of a better term, douchey. Call that trolling if you want. I don't care. I can go back to not posting in here for months at a time.

As some background, I'm a journalist. There's plenty of things I know about my subject of expertise that I can't report publicly. Do I go into forums and make people guess what I know and don't know and then not tell them what is and isn't true? No, that would be extremely bizarre and narcissistic behavior.

Say what you know. Don't say what you can't. This doesn't seem that hard.

You seem to be annoyed with the idea that people with information aren't more forthcoming. That's understandable to some degree.

You also seem to think folks (including myself I presume) are trying to play some sort of game, of trying to flaunt knowledge without revealing it. Again, I guess that's understandable to some degree.

But that's not the case here, I assure you. People are trying to work things the best they can to make this set happen.

This isn't really comparable directly to typical journalistic endeavors, because it's not a question of just "report it" or "don't report it", and not even just a question of protecting sources. We're not blowing the whistle on an international incident. We're trying to prod a group of people to release a consumer product. One of cultural significance, but a consumer product nonetheless. So a game has to be played. The fans need to know enough to know what they should be advocating for, and the group in turns needs to know the fans know. But specific information and sources can't be revealed for a bunch of *obvious* reasons, at least so long as the modus operandi is to help get this set released.

You can think this is all bulls**t.

But I assure folks, it is not. I don't flaunt years or post counts or anything, but I would hope my 15 years a ten gazillion posts here would at least allow folks to believe I'm not jerking anybody around here. I'm trying to help get this set released, as are others.
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« Reply #2072 on: October 12, 2020, 04:21:02 PM »

Since the set has not hit manufacturing, does anyone know what the drop dead date would be to actually get this manufactured for a release this year?  What is the lead time?  If at some point in the future they make the release date the last Friday of this year, when would the set have to been sent to manufacturing to be able to physically release it this year?  8 week lead time, 4 week lead time, anyone know?

A really interesting question.
Anyone know?
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« Reply #2073 on: October 12, 2020, 04:21:30 PM »

OK, so now I'll ask you to "point to where I stated I could 'essentially take or leave this set'" again and ask you to point to where I "seem to not be particularly troubled with the idea of this set not coming out."

I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish here, but when you start lying about things people have and haven't posted and twisting their words, it gets pretty weird.

It's not my job to do a copy and paste dissertation. Anybody can go back and read your posts and everybody else's. "Take or leave" is obviously a very loose paraphrasing/characterization. But yes, when someone says things like this:

"...if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester."

"If it so important to the Wilsons, Al and Dennis' sons that it gets released ... wouldn't it be out by now?"


It seems like those comments seem to come from a place of not being troubled by such material not being released. Sounds like you're okay with this set coming out, or not coming out. Hence "take it or leave it."

Those quotes are about Dennis' songs.

You said I could "take or leave" the set and that I "seem to not be particularly troubled with the idea of this set not coming out."

I'd rather hear the set without Dennis' songs than not hear the set at all. Those quotes are the exact opposite of what you're accusing me of saying.
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« Reply #2074 on: October 12, 2020, 04:21:52 PM »

Quote
The insiders making everyone play the guessing game comes across as, for lack of a better term, douchey. Call that trolling if you want. I don't care.

I’ll call it something beyond douchey but I’m trying hard to be nice. It’s not “playing the guessing the game” ; if anything , they’re doing us a favor by  telling us what they can without burning bridges and end up getting the set cancelled
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Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





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