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Author Topic: Feel Flows box set  (Read 210019 times)
HeyJude
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« Reply #2025 on: October 12, 2020, 01:39:38 PM »

Jon Stebbins once again nailed the term to use for some folks: "Unaware yet Adamant."

People that are that incredulous about what's being told to them about this set at this point either don't actually know a lot about this band and its history, or they're purposely ignoring the evidence and sources for some reason (ego, pedantry, frustration about not being in the loop on the back story, etc.).

I think folks know that they'll have egg on their face if they doubt trusted folks like Stebbins, Edelson, Boyd, Linett, etc., so we've got this weird thing happening with a hand full of fans/spectators where they're trying to be incredulous and cast doubt on this stuff while simultaneously trying to say "well, erm, no, I mean, I trust Jon and Howie, buuutttt....."

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« Reply #2026 on: October 12, 2020, 01:44:30 PM »

Jon, I think your post is too “wordy” for some on this board. I think you might edit down your last post because I honestly don’t think it will sink in otherwise. No offense intended.

Pretty sure the average post length on this board is 10 paragraphs long, which makes Jon post look small.

First, that's pure crap, and second if you don't want to read long posts, don't read 'em -- simple as that! No need to try to take a swipe at the board dating from 2015.
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« Reply #2027 on: October 12, 2020, 01:45:16 PM »

The accusations that Mike is jealous of Dennis music doesn't make any sense to me. Just a few years ago, the Made in California box set came out which was heavy with unreleased Dennis Wilson songs! The anti Mike rhetoric is getting old. Reminds me of the rumors that Mike fired Brian during the 50th anniversary. Proven to be untrue. However, it is true that Mike was disappointed that he was not allowed to work one on one with Brian. And Brian has stated in an interview that he does not like Mike at all. Mike believes that the people around Brian is what kept him from working alone with Brian. But I believe that Brian requested that his people keep Mike from working with him. Sad situation. Personally, I think the worst part of TWGMTR was the producer, Joe Thomas.

What's getting old is that *one* story of Mike participating in the "Made in California" set being used as evidence that he would never have an issue with Dennis or Dennis material, and as evidence that he always and would always be enthusiastic about archival releases, and I guess, that a MILLION other internal issues/politics wouldn't supersede any of that.

This ignores 60 years of band history and politics, including interviews *with* Mike where he discusses his affinity/enthusiasm, or lack thereof, concerning archival releases, album reissues, and really studio recording in general.



So you are just going to ignore all the things that have come out, like Sunshine Tomorrow and Wake the World? Also, Mike has stated many times that he likes the music from 67-73. His main beef was that they were poorly promoted. Especially by Capital in 68-69. He also helped promote the Smile Sessions 9 years ago.

Mike was very heavily involved in the songwriting of sunshine tomorrow. That was his last hurrah as Brian's main lyricist. Naturally that would be more in his wheelhouse of something he can feel good about its release.

There's nobody on that set who is really *outshining him*. On FF, while he'd surely have a chance to shine on his own, I'm sure he would nevertheless be outshined by others, most especially in a particularly acute way by the guy whose music he is trying to butcher and mutilate.

For people who find it so hard to believe, you know, people change and become far bigger bastards as time goes by. For any number of reasons. Mike has also postured as an environmentalist who cares about animals, and then in 2020 he goes and plays a despicable pro hunting show, gets a massive amount of public flak and won't back down. His priorities changed. Not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 01:50:35 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #2028 on: October 12, 2020, 01:46:56 PM »

The accusations that Mike is jealous of Dennis music doesn't make any sense to me. Just a few years ago, the Made in California box set came out which was heavy with unreleased Dennis Wilson songs! The anti Mike rhetoric is getting old. Reminds me of the rumors that Mike fired Brian during the 50th anniversary. Proven to be untrue. However, it is true that Mike was disappointed that he was not allowed to work one on one with Brian. And Brian has stated in an interview that he does not like Mike at all. Mike believes that the people around Brian is what kept him from working alone with Brian. But I believe that Brian requested that his people keep Mike from working with him. Sad situation. Personally, I think the worst part of TWGMTR was the producer, Joe Thomas.

What's getting old is that *one* story of Mike participating in the "Made in California" set being used as evidence that he would never have an issue with Dennis or Dennis material, and as evidence that he always and would always be enthusiastic about archival releases, and I guess, that a MILLION other internal issues/politics wouldn't supersede any of that.

This ignores 60 years of band history and politics, including interviews *with* Mike where he discusses his affinity/enthusiasm, or lack thereof, concerning archival releases, album reissues, and really studio recording in general.



So you are just going to ignore all the things that have come out, like Sunshine Tomorrow and Wake the World? Also, Mike has stated many times that he likes the music from 67-73. His main beef was that they were poorly promoted. Especially by Capital in 68-69. He also helped promote the Smile Sessions 9 years ago.

I can't do anything to help you if you're going to be this ignorant of the band's history.

There are a THOUSAND political and personal issues within the band when it comes to this period of the band's history and their music. For that matter, those politics and the aforementioned "circular firing squad" are potentially *always* at play, even when it's about putting out a greatest hits compilation.

If you think the *only* issue or feeling Mike (or other members) would have about that era of material is simply that the band "was promoted poorly", then I would suggest more research and reading. No, of course it's not as simple as so-and-so just *hates* all of the material from a given era (well, that's true in some cases, but not in the case of 67-73 material). But there are a myriad of personal and business machinations involved, far beyond "well, I love the material, it's just a shame it wasn't promoted better!"

Anybody that has studied this and and its history knows the band's attitude towards archival projects, and should understand how lucky we are that there is an archival team pushing for this stuff behind the scenes, because these "copyright extension" sets being signed off on is in NO WAY evidence of an active championing of the material by some if not most members, and certainly is in no way evidence of what might happen with subsequent sets.
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« Reply #2029 on: October 12, 2020, 01:47:26 PM »

. . . after 700 years of the history of this band . . .

Now I'm no code-breaker, but I do play a bit of chess. I'm assuming that this one means we can expect at least ten archival releases from the 70s to be stonewall or delayed during the coming decade!
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« Reply #2030 on: October 12, 2020, 02:01:29 PM »

Some of the posts on the other board provide a very clear picture of the ideological/logical differences.

One person said (I'm paraphrasing) that if they were a band member, they would question why they'd want a fanbase like this, and would gladly disown "spoiled and minuscule bunch of grownups."

Yes, they're calling out the group of fans and people *working on these sets* who are TRYING TO SAVE THIS F***ING THING.

People who have that attitude are lucky the people working on these sets ever give them the time of day.

And, to state the obvious, I think MANY MANY fans actually think that way about the band. Maybe it's that fans should be fed up with a band that doesn't care about its fanbase (or its OWN LEGACY).

To reiterate, all of these amazing boxed sets and archival releases happen at the prodding of the teams putting them together, and/or the label. I'm not saying that no member ever helped the process along, but there wouldn't be lavish, MULTI DISC sets for studio material in 1967/68/69 if the BBs were just left to their own devices.

"Feel Flows" nearly died many times, and it wasn't band members fighting to make it happen. Indeed, the people working on these sets have some members seemingly actively working against them.
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Don Malcolm
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« Reply #2031 on: October 12, 2020, 02:11:12 PM »


There are a THOUSAND political and personal issues within the band when it comes to this period of the band's history and their music. For that matter, those politics and the aforementioned "circular firing squad" are potentially *always* at play, even when it's about putting out a greatest hits compilation.

If you think the *only* issue or feeling Mike (or other members) would have about that era of material is simply that the band "was promoted poorly", then I would suggest more research and reading. No, of course it's not as simple as so-and-so just *hates* all of the material from a given era (well, that's true in some cases, but not in the case of 67-73 material). But there are a myriad of personal and business machinations involved, far beyond "well, I love the material, it's just a shame it wasn't promoted better!"

Anybody that has studied this and and its history knows the band's attitude towards archival projects, and should understand how lucky we are that there is an archival team pushing for this stuff behind the scenes, because these "copyright extension" sets being signed off on is in NO WAY evidence of an active championing of the material by some if not most members, and certainly is in no way evidence of what might happen with subsequent sets.

Well said, Jude. The preponderance of the evidence suggests that the litigious one is mucking around in the bulrushes again. It's frustrating to me, though, that we don't have a Dr. Ellsberg (as opposed to a Dr. Landy) to "take one for the team" and reveal just what was put together for FEEL FLOWS. Knowing those who've worked on these sets, I can understand their reluctance: getting on the inside of this band is a big deal, even in its twilight phase, and to be ostracized forever if revealed as the source of the leak would be a tough cross to bear...

...but I really believe that someone is going to have to swallow hard and do just that in order to get more clarity into the situation.

Most of us are operating completely in the dark on this, and what's infuriating is knowing that there are certain *sshats over in the Land of Nod who know exactly what is going on and are playing games not only with us, but with their fellow Nodders. Mr. Suppressive Personality needs to look in the mirror when he quotes David Leaf about the "band getting the fans they deserve"--for all of his long-term efforts and his (purported) drive for "objective knowledge," he has long ago morphed into a shameless Lovester lapdog whose net worth to the band as a whole went into the red well before he was rightfully booted out of here.
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« Reply #2032 on: October 12, 2020, 02:24:09 PM »

I'm certainly in the minority here, and while I respect the work people like Howie and Jon have done for the band, if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester.

It feels like this thread/fanbase/forum has turned it, "Listen, you're either for Feel Flows and on the side of Jon Stebbins and Howie Edelson or you're with Mike Love!"

I'd love to get the complete Feel Flows package. But as I've said previously, it seems like those most passionate to get it out into the ether is the fanbase, not the band. And yeah, it sucks that Mike Love (why won't anyone on the "inside" actually say his name? Who are they fooling?) doesn't want a handful of solo Dennis tracks in the box. But am I going to lose my mind and never listen to a song penned by "someone who doesn't want solo Dennis songs on a box set" again? No. I'll still buy the box and enjoy what's being put out there, because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

I swear some people on this board hate Mike Love more than they like the freaking Beach Boys.

He's a part of the band! He should have a say! Jon, Howie, HeyJude and the rest of us aren't. We all chose to like a band fronted by Mike Love. There's consequences that come with it.
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« Reply #2033 on: October 12, 2020, 02:30:32 PM »

You hit the nail on the head, Don, especially with that last paragraph.


I’m also going to say this again...why is it certain people are choosing to ignore what Howie and Jon have both said?! Jon’s last post was about as clear as can be without burning bridges. I’m really trying hard to be nice, but I have a major issue when someone doubts the integrity of two thoroughly decent guys who have put their asses on the line to keep us informed. That is extremely offensive to me, and one or two cases, I wonder about the motivation behind such statements.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 02:31:00 PM by ♩♬🐸 Murry the Friendly Ghost ♯♫♩🐇 » Logged

RIP Daniel Dale Johnston ( 1961-2019)
_______________________________________________________
Fear 2 Stop: eating all of Elon Musk's nightmares as he sleeps

"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
________________________________________________
Free Feel Flows!!!!

Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





——————————————————————————————-

http://fear2stop.bandcamp.com/track/tricky-treats
CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #2034 on: October 12, 2020, 02:31:46 PM »

I'm certainly in the minority here, and while I respect the work people like Howie and Jon have done for the band, if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester.
 

It's possible to do both.

Not sure why it comes down to some assertion that this is the "Bash Mike Love forum".  There's no mutually exclusive thing happening here, or with any number of other case studies in this band.

I'll happily call out when Mike does good stuff, when he kicks ass, as have many others on this board. If he brings the goods, he'll get praise. "Cool Head, Warm Heart" trounced Brian and Al's contributions on that Hallmark CD. His lyrics on Wild Honey were solid. Please Let Me Wonder if possibly my fave BBs song ever. His vocals on Meant For You are fab. I am a fan of Kokomo.

Conversely, if he acts like a pathetic narcissistic ass, he'll also get spoken about in not highly terms, as he should be. ESPECIALLY when it's at the expense of the other members of the band who aren't here to speak for or defend themselves. There's nothing difficult about saying that Mike has brought some very good stuff to the band, and that in a great many instances including this one, he is acting like a piece of sh*t. It's not some mutually exclusive thing. This isn't a game of sports. You can appreciate the good things Mike has brought AND also state that it is despicable that he'd be fucking over his dead cousin.


I swear some people on this board hate Mike Love more than they like the freaking Beach Boys.

Being disgusted with Mike's actions is BECAUSE we love the music SO damn much. If this was just some sh*t bar band, or a band made up of 5 Mike Loves, we'd never ever give two craps about the fact that great music and the legacy is being sh*t on.

Perhaps the best way for Mike Love to stop acting like such a POS is if he wasn't surrounded by a bunch of sycophants, and if enough people actually gave a f*ck and were educated enough as opposed to a ton of low information fans, for it to in any way affect his bottom line. What a dream it would be if every member of the audience at the upcoming parking lot drive in shows that M&B are playing were to pull out a giant glowing poster that said "please keep Dennis' songs on FF, please don't screw over your dead cousin"... if a GIANT SEA of cars at 3 shows did that, it would probably make news, and he'd maybe have a change of heart, if only to avoid embarrassment.

But you know, Mike - like his hero - loves the poorly educated.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 02:49:20 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #2035 on: October 12, 2020, 02:34:21 PM »

You hit the nail on the head, Don, especially with that last paragraph.


I’m also going to say this again...why is it certain people are choosing to ignore what Howie and Jon have both said?! Jon’s last post was about as clear as can be without burning bridges. I’m really trying hard to be nice, but I have a major issue when someone doubts the integrity of two thoroughly decent guys who have put their asses on the line to keep us informed. That is extremely offensive to me, and one or two cases, I wonder about the motivation behind such statements.

Not to mention, I'm absolutely certain that the feelings of Jon and Howie are shared by a number of other insiders, including very, VERY probably people who are much closer to the band in terms of actual DNA. I'm sure they're not just speaking for themselves by being appalled at the thought of Mr. Positivity mutilating Dennis' content.
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« Reply #2036 on: October 12, 2020, 02:41:12 PM »

I'm certainly in the minority here, and while I respect the work people like Howie and Jon have done for the band, if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester.

It feels like this thread/fanbase/forum has turned it, "Listen, you're either for Feel Flows and on the side of Jon Stebbins and Howie Edelson or you're with Mike Love!"

I'd love to get the complete Feel Flows package. But as I've said previously, it seems like those most passionate to get it out into the ether is the fanbase, not the band. And yeah, it sucks that Mike Love (why won't anyone on the "inside" actually say his name? Who are they fooling?) doesn't want a handful of solo Dennis tracks in the box. But am I going to lose my mind and never listen to a song penned by "someone who doesn't want solo Dennis songs on a box set" again? No. I'll still buy the box and enjoy what's being put out there, because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

I swear some people on this board hate Mike Love more than they like the freaking Beach Boys.

He's a part of the band! He should have a say! Jon, Howie, HeyJude and the rest of us aren't. We all chose to like a band fronted by Mike Love. There's consequences that come with it.


I respect what you’re saying. Just to clarify, I’ve *always* championed Mike’s contributions to the music, probably more than most (hell, I actually like Looking Back with Love a lot). I’ll be buying the set regardless. My issues are the set being blocked and the possibility of all the hard work gone into it being for naught, and the complete lack of respect (not by you, talking about certain other individuals) shown towards those who busted their asses off trying to make this happen. That’s the deal with me.
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RIP Daniel Dale Johnston ( 1961-2019)
_______________________________________________________
Fear 2 Stop: eating all of Elon Musk's nightmares as he sleeps

"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
________________________________________________
Free Feel Flows!!!!

Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





——————————————————————————————-

http://fear2stop.bandcamp.com/track/tricky-treats
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« Reply #2037 on: October 12, 2020, 02:42:41 PM »

You hit the nail on the head, Don, especially with that last paragraph.


I’m also going to say this again...why is it certain people are choosing to ignore what Howie and Jon have both said?! Jon’s last post was about as clear as can be without burning bridges. I’m really trying hard to be nice, but I have a major issue when someone doubts the integrity of two thoroughly decent guys who have put their asses on the line to keep us informed. That is extremely offensive to me, and one or two cases, I wonder about the motivation behind such statements.

Not to mention, I'm absolutely certain that the feelings of Jon and Howie are shared by a number of other insiders, including very, VERY probably people who are much closer to the band in terms of actual DNA. I'm sure they're not just speaking for themselves by being appalled at the thought of Mr. Positivity mutilating Dennis' content.

Yup
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RIP Daniel Dale Johnston ( 1961-2019)
_______________________________________________________
Fear 2 Stop: eating all of Elon Musk's nightmares as he sleeps

"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
________________________________________________
Free Feel Flows!!!!

Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





——————————————————————————————-

http://fear2stop.bandcamp.com/track/tricky-treats
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« Reply #2038 on: October 12, 2020, 02:45:49 PM »

You hit the nail on the head, Don, especially with that last paragraph.


I’m also going to say this again...why is it certain people are choosing to ignore what Howie and Jon have both said?! Jon’s last post was about as clear as can be without burning bridges. I’m really trying hard to be nice, but I have a major issue when someone doubts the integrity of two thoroughly decent guys who have put their asses on the line to keep us informed. That is extremely offensive to me, and one or two cases, I wonder about the motivation behind such statements.

All of this regarding motivation has been playing out for years, maybe it took a clusterfuck like this box set getting shelved to expose more of what has been going on all along among various elements within this band and the fanbase. You saw a few people show up here several weeks ago and basically lie and distort trying to speculate on reasons why the set got held up, while the group they're associated with now spends time criticizing those who are speculating why the set got held up, not to mention people who actually worked on the set. It's all about pushing a narrative, then trying to smear those who go against that narrative. Going after Howie and Jon should be the last straw in all of it, for those who still can't see it.
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« Reply #2039 on: October 12, 2020, 02:57:25 PM »

I'm certainly in the minority here, and while I respect the work people like Howie and Jon have done for the band, if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester.

It feels like this thread/fanbase/forum has turned it, "Listen, you're either for Feel Flows and on the side of Jon Stebbins and Howie Edelson or you're with Mike Love!"

I'd love to get the complete Feel Flows package. But as I've said previously, it seems like those most passionate to get it out into the ether is the fanbase, not the band. And yeah, it sucks that Mike Love (why won't anyone on the "inside" actually say his name? Who are they fooling?) doesn't want a handful of solo Dennis tracks in the box. But am I going to lose my mind and never listen to a song penned by "someone who doesn't want solo Dennis songs on a box set" again? No. I'll still buy the box and enjoy what's being put out there, because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

I swear some people on this board hate Mike Love more than they like the freaking Beach Boys.

He's a part of the band! He should have a say! Jon, Howie, HeyJude and the rest of us aren't. We all chose to like a band fronted by Mike Love. There's consequences that come with it.

While it's impossible to go into specifics right now, I think your characterization of a "handful" is not accurate. What if it was all, or virtually all?

Also, wanting Dennis material on the boxed set does not preclude appreciating Mike's contribution to the band. To suggest so is a slap in the face to the people who work on these sets, who speak *directly* to Mike and all of the band members. And to fans for that matter.

As to the rest of the "everybody hates Mike Love" stuff, it's been said a thousand times. Apart from the occasional troll, nobody here hates Mike. They want Mike's material on this boxed set!
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« Reply #2040 on: October 12, 2020, 03:02:31 PM »

because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

THIS. EVERYBODY READ ABOVE.

You've seemingly accidentally stumbled across a main crux of what's going on in this thread.

It offers a perfect explanation for why people in the know who want this set out would WANT FANS TO KNOW that Dennis songs are/were on the set, and also a very good explanation for why some parties would surely NOT want folks to ever have known that Dennis material was on it, or that it was sitting there ready to go for eons.

I just can't wrap my head around a fan, a *real* fan of the band, of its entire history, being told "Hey, guess what, there was going to be a bunch of Dennis material on this boxed set", and then told that the material might be deleted, and then to come away with a reaction of "Well, gee, I wouldn't have known the stuff was there in the first place if someone hadn't told me, so what's the big deal?"
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« Reply #2041 on: October 12, 2020, 03:10:14 PM »

because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

THIS. EVERYBODY READ ABOVE.

You've seemingly accidentally stumbled across a main crux of what's going on in this thread.

It offers a perfect explanation for why people in the know who want this set out would WANT FANS TO KNOW that Dennis songs are/were on the set, and also a very good explanation for why some parties would surely NOT want folks to ever have known that Dennis material was on it, or that it was sitting there ready to go for eons.

I just can't wrap my head around a fan, a *real* fan of the band, of its entire history, being told "Hey, guess what, there was going to be a bunch of Dennis material on this boxed set", and then told that the material might be deleted, and then to come away with a reaction of "Well, gee, I wouldn't have known the stuff was there in the first place if someone hadn't told me, so what's the big deal?"

Aint that the truth, HJ. And it seems that if someone has the below mindset about Mike:

He's a part of the band! He should have a say!  

that such a mindset would in theory be based on what's morally, ethically appropriate, with the person presumably believing that all members of this band should simply "have a say". Well guess what? DENNIS CARL WILSON was a member of this band! He's just unfortunately not living, but ya know, if we're going to look at this from a purely "moral" or "ethical" manner, Dennis and his estate should have a say.

But due to tragic circumstances that are well documented (with his shares being sold), they don't. And that doesn't magically "make it right", so this would seemingly put the original mindset into some sort of moral conundrum.  So is that mindset then going to morph into "sorry Dennis is no longer living, but what I really mean is that all living members should have a say, and as for Dennis's estate selling his shares way back then, well womp womp tough sh*t"?"

There's no real middle ground on that. It's an appalling thing to think if anyone has that mindset. Mike clearly does. Unless anyone here is crazy enough to think that Mike consulted with Dennis' estate to get their thoughts on mutilating Dennis' material. Just because things happened to have evolved into the current situation due to circumstances, doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean we have to defend the current power structure that's allowing the mutilation and butchering of DW's material.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 03:20:54 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #2042 on: October 12, 2020, 03:15:11 PM »

I'm certainly in the minority here, and while I respect the work people like Howie and Jon have done for the band, if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester.

It feels like this thread/fanbase/forum has turned it, "Listen, you're either for Feel Flows and on the side of Jon Stebbins and Howie Edelson or you're with Mike Love!"

I'd love to get the complete Feel Flows package. But as I've said previously, it seems like those most passionate to get it out into the ether is the fanbase, not the band. And yeah, it sucks that Mike Love (why won't anyone on the "inside" actually say his name? Who are they fooling?) doesn't want a handful of solo Dennis tracks in the box. But am I going to lose my mind and never listen to a song penned by "someone who doesn't want solo Dennis songs on a box set" again? No. I'll still buy the box and enjoy what's being put out there, because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

I swear some people on this board hate Mike Love more than they like the freaking Beach Boys.

He's a part of the band! He should have a say! Jon, Howie, HeyJude and the rest of us aren't. We all chose to like a band fronted by Mike Love. There's consequences that come with it.

While it's impossible to go into specifics right now, I think your characterization of a "handful" is not accurate. What if it was all, or virtually all?

Also, wanting Dennis material on the boxed set does not preclude appreciating Mike's contribution to the band. To suggest so is a slap in the face to the people who work on these sets, who speak *directly* to Mike and all of the band members. And to fans for that matter.

As to the rest of the "everybody hates Mike Love" stuff, it's been said a thousand times. Apart from the occasional troll, nobody here hates Mike. They want Mike's material on this boxed set!


Guys, enough with the "slap in the face to people who work on these sets." They're not storming the beach at Normandy, for Christ's sake. They're working on a Beach Boys anthology.
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« Reply #2043 on: October 12, 2020, 03:16:52 PM »

because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

THIS. EVERYBODY READ ABOVE.

You've seemingly accidentally stumbled across a main crux of what's going on in this thread.

It offers a perfect explanation for why people in the know who want this set out would WANT FANS TO KNOW that Dennis songs are/were on the set, and also a very good explanation for why some parties would surely NOT want folks to ever have known that Dennis material was on it, or that it was sitting there ready to go for eons.

I just can't wrap my head around a fan, a *real* fan of the band, of its entire history, being told "Hey, guess what, there was going to be a bunch of Dennis material on this boxed set", and then told that the material might be deleted, and then to come away with a reaction of "Well, gee, I wouldn't have known the stuff was there in the first place if someone hadn't told me, so what's the big deal?"

You're such a hero, Hey Jude.
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« Reply #2044 on: October 12, 2020, 03:17:50 PM »

because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

THIS. EVERYBODY READ ABOVE.

You've seemingly accidentally stumbled across a main crux of what's going on in this thread.

It offers a perfect explanation for why people in the know who want this set out would WANT FANS TO KNOW that Dennis songs are/were on the set, and also a very good explanation for why some parties would surely NOT want folks to ever have known that Dennis material was on it, or that it was sitting there ready to go for eons.

I just can't wrap my head around a fan, a *real* fan of the band, of its entire history, being told "Hey, guess what, there was going to be a bunch of Dennis material on this boxed set", and then told that the material might be deleted, and then to come away with a reaction of "Well, gee, I wouldn't have known the stuff was there in the first place if someone hadn't told me, so what's the big deal?"

Aint that the truth, HJ. And it seems that if someone has the below mindset about Mike:

He's a part of the band! He should have a say!  

that such a mindset would in theory be based on what's morally, ethically appropriate, with the person presumably believing that all members of this band should simply "have a say". Well guess what? DENNIS CARL WILSON was a member of this band! He's just unfortunately not living, but ya know, if we're going to look at this from a purely "moral" or "ethical" manner, Dennis and his estate should have a say.

But due to tragic circumstances that are well documented (with his shares being sold), they don't. And that doesn't magically "make it right", so this would seemingly put the original mindset into some sort of moral conundrum.  So is that mindset then going to morphs into "sorry Dennis is no longer living, but what I really mean is that all living members should have a say, and as for Dennis's estate selling his shares way back then, well womp womp tough sh*t"?"

There's no real middle ground on that. It's an appalling thing to think if anyone has that mindset. Mike clearly does, and has historically taken full advantage of which Wilsons are living or not in order to build up his dream egofied version of the band. Just because things happened to have evolved into the current situation due to circumstances, doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean we have to defend the current power structure that's allowing the mutilation and butchering of DW's material.

Annnnnnnd we're back to projecting our feelings onto other people. And now we're projecting our feelings onto Dennis Wilson.
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« Reply #2045 on: October 12, 2020, 03:18:39 PM »

because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

THIS. EVERYBODY READ ABOVE.

You've seemingly accidentally stumbled across a main crux of what's going on in this thread.

It offers a perfect explanation for why people in the know who want this set out would WANT FANS TO KNOW that Dennis songs are/were on the set, and also a very good explanation for why some parties would surely NOT want folks to ever have known that Dennis material was on it, or that it was sitting there ready to go for eons.

I just can't wrap my head around a fan, a *real* fan of the band, of its entire history, being told "Hey, guess what, there was going to be a bunch of Dennis material on this boxed set", and then told that the material might be deleted, and then to come away with a reaction of "Well, gee, I wouldn't have known the stuff was there in the first place if someone hadn't told me, so what's the big deal?"

Aint that the truth, HJ. And it seems that if someone has the below mindset about Mike:

He's a part of the band! He should have a say!  

that such a mindset would in theory be based on what's morally, ethically appropriate, with the person presumably believing that all members of this band should simply "have a say". Well guess what? DENNIS CARL WILSON was a member of this band! He's just unfortunately not living, but ya know, if we're going to look at this from a purely "moral" or "ethical" manner, Dennis and his estate should have a say.

But due to tragic circumstances that are well documented (with his shares being sold), they don't. And that doesn't magically "make it right", so this would seemingly put the original mindset into some sort of moral conundrum.  So is that mindset then going to morphs into "sorry Dennis is no longer living, but what I really mean is that all living members should have a say, and as for Dennis's estate selling his shares way back then, well womp womp tough sh*t"?"

There's no real middle ground on that. It's an appalling thing to think if anyone has that mindset. Mike clearly does, and has historically taken full advantage of which Wilsons are living or not in order to build up his dream egofied version of the band. Just because things happened to have evolved into the current situation due to circumstances, doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean we have to defend the current power structure that's allowing the mutilation and butchering of DW's material.

Annnnnnnd we're back to projecting our feelings onto other people. And now we're projecting our feelings onto Dennis Wilson.

Do you really truly think Dennis would sit idly by, if he was here, and let all of his material be removed?

Please actually answer the question, I feel a duck/dodge coming on.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 03:22:32 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #2046 on: October 12, 2020, 03:21:51 PM »

because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

THIS. EVERYBODY READ ABOVE.

You've seemingly accidentally stumbled across a main crux of what's going on in this thread.

It offers a perfect explanation for why people in the know who want this set out would WANT FANS TO KNOW that Dennis songs are/were on the set, and also a very good explanation for why some parties would surely NOT want folks to ever have known that Dennis material was on it, or that it was sitting there ready to go for eons.

I just can't wrap my head around a fan, a *real* fan of the band, of its entire history, being told "Hey, guess what, there was going to be a bunch of Dennis material on this boxed set", and then told that the material might be deleted, and then to come away with a reaction of "Well, gee, I wouldn't have known the stuff was there in the first place if someone hadn't told me, so what's the big deal?"

Aint that the truth, HJ. And it seems that if someone has the below mindset about Mike:

He's a part of the band! He should have a say!  

that such a mindset would in theory be based on what's morally, ethically appropriate, with the person presumably believing that all members of this band should simply "have a say". Well guess what? DENNIS CARL WILSON was a member of this band! He's just unfortunately not living, but ya know, if we're going to look at this from a purely "moral" or "ethical" manner, Dennis and his estate should have a say.

But due to tragic circumstances that are well documented (with his shares being sold), they don't. And that doesn't magically "make it right", so this would seemingly put the original mindset into some sort of moral conundrum.  So is that mindset then going to morphs into "sorry Dennis is no longer living, but what I really mean is that all living members should have a say, and as for Dennis's estate selling his shares way back then, well womp womp tough sh*t"?"

There's no real middle ground on that. It's an appalling thing to think if anyone has that mindset. Mike clearly does, and has historically taken full advantage of which Wilsons are living or not in order to build up his dream egofied version of the band. Just because things happened to have evolved into the current situation due to circumstances, doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean we have to defend the current power structure that's allowing the mutilation and butchering of DW's material.

Annnnnnnd we're back to projecting our feelings onto other people. And now we're projecting our feelings onto Dennis Wilson.

Do you really truly think Dennis would sit idly by, if he was here, and let all of his material be removed? Please actually answer the question, I feel a duck/dodge coming on.

Well, he recorded it in 1970 and 1971, he died in 1983, and it never came out. So, I have absolutely no clue what he thinks of that material. Do I know for a fact that he loved it and deemed it worthy for release? Absofreakinlutely not. Do I know for a fact that he never wanted it to be released? Absofreakinlutely not.

I have no idea. You have no idea.

I'd love to hear it. But my argument for hearing it absolutely is not going to be, "Dennis wanted me to hear it!"
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 03:22:48 PM by startBBtoday » Logged
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« Reply #2047 on: October 12, 2020, 03:24:02 PM »

because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

THIS. EVERYBODY READ ABOVE.

You've seemingly accidentally stumbled across a main crux of what's going on in this thread.

It offers a perfect explanation for why people in the know who want this set out would WANT FANS TO KNOW that Dennis songs are/were on the set, and also a very good explanation for why some parties would surely NOT want folks to ever have known that Dennis material was on it, or that it was sitting there ready to go for eons.

I just can't wrap my head around a fan, a *real* fan of the band, of its entire history, being told "Hey, guess what, there was going to be a bunch of Dennis material on this boxed set", and then told that the material might be deleted, and then to come away with a reaction of "Well, gee, I wouldn't have known the stuff was there in the first place if someone hadn't told me, so what's the big deal?"

Aint that the truth, HJ. And it seems that if someone has the below mindset about Mike:

He's a part of the band! He should have a say!  

that such a mindset would in theory be based on what's morally, ethically appropriate, with the person presumably believing that all members of this band should simply "have a say". Well guess what? DENNIS CARL WILSON was a member of this band! He's just unfortunately not living, but ya know, if we're going to look at this from a purely "moral" or "ethical" manner, Dennis and his estate should have a say.

But due to tragic circumstances that are well documented (with his shares being sold), they don't. And that doesn't magically "make it right", so this would seemingly put the original mindset into some sort of moral conundrum.  So is that mindset then going to morphs into "sorry Dennis is no longer living, but what I really mean is that all living members should have a say, and as for Dennis's estate selling his shares way back then, well womp womp tough sh*t"?"

There's no real middle ground on that. It's an appalling thing to think if anyone has that mindset. Mike clearly does, and has historically taken full advantage of which Wilsons are living or not in order to build up his dream egofied version of the band. Just because things happened to have evolved into the current situation due to circumstances, doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean we have to defend the current power structure that's allowing the mutilation and butchering of DW's material.

Annnnnnnd we're back to projecting our feelings onto other people. And now we're projecting our feelings onto Dennis Wilson.

Do you really truly think Dennis would sit idly by, if he was here, and let all of his material be removed? Please actually answer the question, I feel a duck/dodge coming on.

Well, he recorded it in 1970 and 1971, he died in 1983, and it never came out. So, I have absolutely no clue what he thinks of that material. Do I know for a fact that he loved it and deemed it worthy for release? Absofreakinlutely not. Do I know for a fact that he didn't never wanted it to be released? Absofreakinlutely not.

I have no idea. You have no idea.

I'd love to hear it. But my argument for hearing it absolutely is not going to be, "Dennis wanted me to hear it!"

At minimum, I think it's rich to think that he'd be anything but incensed that of all people, it would be Mike who would be throwing weight behind removing the material.
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« Reply #2048 on: October 12, 2020, 03:25:43 PM »

I'm certainly in the minority here, and while I respect the work people like Howie and Jon have done for the band, if my choice is to bemoan the loss of a handful of solo Dennis Wilson songs or appreciate Mike Love's enormous contributions to the band, I'm going with the latter, the Lovester.

It feels like this thread/fanbase/forum has turned it, "Listen, you're either for Feel Flows and on the side of Jon Stebbins and Howie Edelson or you're with Mike Love!"

I'd love to get the complete Feel Flows package. But as I've said previously, it seems like those most passionate to get it out into the ether is the fanbase, not the band. And yeah, it sucks that Mike Love (why won't anyone on the "inside" actually say his name? Who are they fooling?) doesn't want a handful of solo Dennis tracks in the box. But am I going to lose my mind and never listen to a song penned by "someone who doesn't want solo Dennis songs on a box set" again? No. I'll still buy the box and enjoy what's being put out there, because I wouldn't have known that solo Dennis Wilson songs were even being considered for the box without insiders leaking it in the first place.

I swear some people on this board hate Mike Love more than they like the freaking Beach Boys.

He's a part of the band! He should have a say! Jon, Howie, HeyJude and the rest of us aren't. We all chose to like a band fronted by Mike Love. There's consequences that come with it.

While it's impossible to go into specifics right now, I think your characterization of a "handful" is not accurate. What if it was all, or virtually all?

Also, wanting Dennis material on the boxed set does not preclude appreciating Mike's contribution to the band. To suggest so is a slap in the face to the people who work on these sets, who speak *directly* to Mike and all of the band members. And to fans for that matter.

As to the rest of the "everybody hates Mike Love" stuff, it's been said a thousand times. Apart from the occasional troll, nobody here hates Mike. They want Mike's material on this boxed set!


Guys, enough with the "slap in the face to people who work on these sets." They're not storming the beach at Normandy, for Christ's sake. They're working on a Beach Boys anthology.

At this point this is just trolling.
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« Reply #2049 on: October 12, 2020, 03:30:07 PM »

Well, he recorded it in 1970 and 1971, he died in 1983, and it never came out. So, I have absolutely no clue what he thinks of that material. Do I know for a fact that he loved it and deemed it worthy for release? Absofreakinlutely not. Do I know for a fact that he never wanted it to be released? Absofreakinlutely not.

I have no idea. You have no idea.

I'd love to hear it. But my argument for hearing it absolutely is not going to be, "Dennis wanted me to hear it!"

All of this is missing the point. Nobody is saying Dennis wanted us to hear this stuff. For the millionth time as I've been saying, NONE of the band members have taken a strong shine to spearheading archival releases.

They used to do mine old stuff for "new" albums back a million years ago when they were still an actual recording act.

Now they're a trademark and a holding company, with a vault full of a cache of unreleased material that bests ANY band's out there. By leaps and bounds.

As has been with past archival releases, there are folks trying to get this stuff released. That's why it happens. They do all the work, and then convince the band to let it happen.

That's what's happening now, only for a plethora of reasons, it's hitting a bunch of snags, snags that might be untangled if the band knows that fans know what's going on.

If your ethos when it comes to BB releases is "Meh, whatever. If it ends up released then I'll enjoy it", then there's no need to discuss the work others are trying to do to make it happen, and you can just sit back and fold your arms and wait for something (or nothing) to appear.
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