Feel Flows box set

[CenturyDeprived]

As far as I can tell there is no evidence that Mike has a problem with Dennis material.

This would only be true if there was no "evidence" that is not widely known to the public. I doubt many here would think that's the case.

I thought it had been cleared up earlier in this thread that at least re: feel flows, this wasn't an issue.

I'm aware they had plenty of personal issues in the past but as far as that impacting Dennis Wilson material appearing in later years on comps and so on, then I'm unaware of that and would be interested to know more.

I addressed this several times in recent posts, including one on this page above. 

The issue of removing Dennis material is a more recent development separate from the initial issues with the set's delay.

OK, so, Dennis Wilson solo material had nothing to do with the initial delay however it's now unlikely to be released in whatever version of FF is released? and it's likely because of Mike Love objections?

The likely thing is you're not going to get insiders to directly say "yes" do that, but it's easy to surmise that must basically be the case, more or less, from the last several posts. It's an absolutely atrocious situation. Mike Love is a petty, jealous little man, and that's me censoring my real thoughts.

[SMiLE Brian]

Sweet vindication for me and OSD!

Edit: But seriously, what a f***ed up situation to be jealous of your dead Cousin's music from FIFTY years ago.

[Sam_BFC]

Sweet vindication for me and OSD!

Why not bitter or sour vindication ?

 You would enjoy being vindicated even if it means we all miss out ?

I’m sure you would prefer we don’t miss out, but this attitude suggests otherwise.

[CenturyDeprived]

Sweet vindication for me and OSD!

Why not bitter or sour vindication ?

 You would enjoy being vindicated even if it means we all miss out ?

I’m sure you would prefer we don’t miss out, but this attitude suggests otherwise.

Maybe it's not my place to speak for SB, but I tend to think that many people are just absolutely fed up with Mike, and are also fed up with the small but persistent amount of people who will bend themselves into a pretzel to find ways to somehow defend him and find illogical ways in which to absolve him of responsibility for all sorts of stuff.

I don't think you'll find any fan of the band who actually *wants* to be right about Mike. It's just that they know in their hearts that they are right, and there's probably some sort of relief at seeing what they know to be true being vindicated. Ultimately I'm sure every fan to whom this music means something to is utterly disgusted at the thought of Mike doing something like this.

I think the only pleasure derived would be at seeing the prezel-bending defenders being proven wrong. Personally I don't gain any pleasure in that whatsoever; the whole thing just makes me extremely sad and infuriated.

My thoughts are with Dennis's kids and Dennis's surviving close friends who are probably utterly disgusted beyond words at a certain someone in the band behaving like narcissist trash.

[alanjames]

As far as I can tell there is no evidence that Mike has a problem with Dennis material.

This would only be true if there was no "evidence" that is not widely known to the public. I doubt many here would think that's the case.

I thought it had been cleared up earlier in this thread that at least re: feel flows, this wasn't an issue.

I'm aware they had plenty of personal issues in the past but as far as that impacting Dennis Wilson material appearing in later years on comps and so on, then I'm unaware of that and would be interested to know more.

I addressed this several times in recent posts, including one on this page above.  

The issue of removing Dennis material is a more recent development separate from the initial issues with the set's delay.

OK, so, Dennis Wilson solo material had nothing to do with the initial delay however it's now unlikely to be released in whatever version of FF is released? and it's likely because of Mike Love objections?

The likely thing is you're not going to get insiders to directly say "yes" do that, but it's easy to surmise that must basically be the case, more or less, from the last several posts. It's an absolutely atrocious situation. Mike Love is a petty, jealous little man, and that's me censoring my real thoughts.

Mike Love is a jealous narcissistic man, he really is.
A jealous little man that needs to veto his cousin’s music only because he sees himself as The Beach Boys guardian.
The Wilsons and Al really had to stand themselves fighting for this music to be released and/or take the license from Mike vetoing him to use The Beach Boys name.

[alanjames]

If Dennis material would be removed from this set and released next year in a Dennis solo release/or if there’s a leak it would be great.
But ban Dennis 70/71 songs to be released is a crime against his sons, his fans the the music in general.

[startBBtoday]

Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but that solo Dennis material has been around for ::checks notes:: 50 whole years. If it so important to the Wilsons, Al and Dennis' sons that it gets released ... wouldn't it be out by now?

[CenturyDeprived]

Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but that solo Dennis material has been around for ::checks notes:: 50 whole years. If it so important to the Wilsons, Al and Dennis' sons that it gets released ... wouldn't it be out by now?

It's highly possible that there was never until now an approved budget to go back into the vault tapes and properly mix and master and do all of that stuff to that material. Who would pay for that? It's also possible that there's plenty of material or elements that were newly discovered.

On top of that, when it comes to marketing, it's only really in the last dozen years that the stature of Dennis and his genius has become better known thanks to the ongoing efforts of wonderful folks like Jon. It's not necessarily easy to find a marketable home for material like that, but a box like FF which highlights the contributions of ALL members of the era would certainly be the perfect place for it. For both DW's material to shine and get the most listeners, and for it to be a reciprocal thing for the whole box's contents to get more attention and praise.

I'm sure that the music of smile that Brian recorded in the 1960s was very important to him, but there were also many reasons why it didn't come out. I don't think this has anything whatsoever to do with the children of Dennis not caring, or about the material not meaning enough to them.

[startBBtoday]

Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but that solo Dennis material has been around for ::checks notes:: 50 whole years. If it so important to the Wilsons, Al and Dennis' sons that it gets released ... wouldn't it be out by now?

It's highly possible that there was never until now an approved budget to go back into the vault tapes and properly mix and master and do all of that stuff to that material. Who would pay for that? It's also possible that there's plenty of material or elements that were newly discovered.

On top of that, when it comes to marketing, it's only really in the last dozen years that the stature of Dennis and his genius has become better known thanks to the ongoing efforts of wonderful folks like Jon. It's not necessarily easy to find a marketable home for material like that, but a box like FF which highlights the contributions of ALL members of the era would certainly be the perfect place for it. For both DW's material to shine and get the most listeners, and for it to be a reciprocal thing for the whole box's contents to get more attention and praise.

I'm sure that the music of smile that Brian recorded in the 1960s was very important to him, but there were also many reasons why it didn't come out. I don't think this has anything whatsoever to do with the children of Dennis not caring, or about the material not meaning enough to them.

I don't know. Maybe it just feels a bit exploitative to me for people to project their own feelings onto Al, the Wilsons or Dennis' children to justify their own desire for this music or hatred for Mike Love.

[Lonely Summer]

Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but that solo Dennis material has been around for ::checks notes:: 50 whole years. If it so important to the Wilsons, Al and Dennis' sons that it gets released ... wouldn't it be out by now?

It's highly possible that there was never until now an approved budget to go back into the vault tapes and properly mix and master and do all of that stuff to that material. Who would pay for that? It's also possible that there's plenty of material or elements that were newly discovered.

On top of that, when it comes to marketing, it's only really in the last dozen years that the stature of Dennis and his genius has become better known thanks to the ongoing efforts of wonderful folks like Jon. It's not necessarily easy to find a marketable home for material like that, but a box like FF which highlights the contributions of ALL members of the era would certainly be the perfect place for it. For both DW's material to shine and get the most listeners, and for it to be a reciprocal thing for the whole box's contents to get more attention and praise.

I'm sure that the music of smile that Brian recorded in the 1960s was very important to him, but there were also many reasons why it didn't come out. I don't think this has anything whatsoever to do with the children of Dennis not caring, or about the material not meaning enough to them.

I don't know. Maybe it just feels a bit exploitative to me for people to project their own feelings onto Al, the Wilsons or Dennis' children to justify their own desire for this music or hatred for Mike Love.

Agreed.

[juggler]

Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but that solo Dennis material has been around for ::checks notes:: 50 whole years. If it so important to the Wilsons, Al and Dennis' sons that it gets released ... wouldn't it be out by now?

For what it's worth, Dennis' sons have neither a stake nor a say in the Beach Boys.  The BBs' holding company Brother Records Inc. (BRI) bought out Dennis' share of the corporation for cash circa 1984 to retire some of Denny's debts.

[Tom]

But they do still own the publishing rights to his actual songs right? Selling a stake in a company doesn't mean ceding ones songwriting credits & associated rights

[Freddie French-Pounce]

We were always told the material wasn't the reason for the holdup.

[juggler]

But they do still own the publishing rights to his actual songs right? Selling a stake in a company doesn't mean ceding ones songwriting credits & associated rights

Probably yes.  There's an ongoing "Dennis Wilson Trust" that's been managed by the same lawyer since the '80s, and it's highly likely that some publishing royalties are being paid to Dennis' kids.  But, again, Denny's estate has no stake in BRI and thus no control over "Beach Boys" releases.

[mtaber]

The “original cause of the holdup” and the “inclusion of Dennis material” are two separate issues. The issue with Dennis’material is a recently developed roadblock.  HeyJude explains this every page or so...

[Magic Transistor Radio]

The accusations that Mike is jealous of Dennis music doesn't make any sense to me. Just a few years ago, the Made in California box set came out which was heavy with unreleased Dennis Wilson songs! The anti Mike rhetoric is getting old. Reminds me of the rumors that Mike fired Brian during the 50th anniversary. Proven to be untrue. However, it is true that Mike was disappointed that he was not allowed to work one on one with Brian. And Brian has stated in an interview that he does not like Mike at all. Mike believes that the people around Brian is what kept him from working alone with Brian. But I believe that Brian requested that his people keep Mike from working with him. Sad situation. Personally, I think the worst part of TWGMTR was the producer, Joe Thomas.

[doc smiley]

The “original cause of the holdup” and the “inclusion of Dennis material” are two separate issues. The issue with Dennis’material is a recently developed roadblock.  HeyJude explains this every page or so...

Does the whole "Dennis material" issue have "any" basis other than speculation?  Didn't that come up only because they say that 26 minutes of his early aborted solo release is included in the box?  They say that the material in the box is NOT the issue, so I think this is a completely needless worry.

[doc smiley]

as far as Dennis's material has to be put out before year-end to escape public domain, that would mean ANYTHING on the box that's unreleased and not an alternate version, not just Dennis's stuff... nowhere has anyone said that they want to take Dennis's stuff off the box, just that Stamos is aware of the box... the conclusion that he would be partial to removing Dennis material is unfounded, and frankly a little hateful.


FREE FEEL FLOWS   !!!!

[HeyJude]

The “original cause of the holdup” and the “inclusion of Dennis material” are two separate issues. The issue with Dennis’material is a recently developed roadblock.  HeyJude explains this every page or so...

Does the whole "Dennis material" issue have "any" basis other than speculation?  Didn't that come up only because they say that 26 minutes of his early aborted solo release is included in the box?  They say that the material in the box is NOT the issue, so I think this is a completely needless worry.

I don't get it. Why are you ignoring the thing you were *just* told in the post you're responding to?

The delays on the set are issue #1. Subsequently, and *separately*, an issue regarding the inclusion/removal of Dennis material has come up, all while the status of the set (whether edited or not) remains up in the air.

So NO, the content of the set *not* being the reasons for the delays all these months should NOT alleviate anybody's worry about Dennis material being removed.

[HeyJude]

as far as Dennis's material has to be put out before year-end to escape public domain, that would mean ANYTHING on the box that's unreleased and not an alternate version, not just Dennis's stuff... nowhere has anyone said that they want to take Dennis's stuff off the box, just that Stamos is aware of the box... the conclusion that he would be partial to removing Dennis material is unfounded, and frankly a little hateful.


FREE FEEL FLOWS   !!!!

Seriously, you need to go back and read all these posts. I don't know if you're skimming them or not absorbing them, but NOBODY said Stamos wants Dennis material removed from the box.

[HeyJude]

The accusations that Mike is jealous of Dennis music doesn't make any sense to me. Just a few years ago, the Made in California box set came out which was heavy with unreleased Dennis Wilson songs! The anti Mike rhetoric is getting old. Reminds me of the rumors that Mike fired Brian during the 50th anniversary. Proven to be untrue. However, it is true that Mike was disappointed that he was not allowed to work one on one with Brian. And Brian has stated in an interview that he does not like Mike at all. Mike believes that the people around Brian is what kept him from working alone with Brian. But I believe that Brian requested that his people keep Mike from working with him. Sad situation. Personally, I think the worst part of TWGMTR was the producer, Joe Thomas.

What's getting old is that *one* story of Mike participating in the "Made in California" set being used as evidence that he would never have an issue with Dennis or Dennis material, and as evidence that he always and would always be enthusiastic about archival releases, and I guess, that a MILLION other internal issues/politics wouldn't supersede any of that.

This ignores 60 years of band history and politics, including interviews *with* Mike where he discusses his affinity/enthusiasm, or lack thereof, concerning archival releases, album reissues, and really studio recording in general.

[HeyJude]

Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but that solo Dennis material has been around for ::checks notes:: 50 whole years. If it so important to the Wilsons, Al and Dennis' sons that it gets released ... wouldn't it be out by now?

I think it's pretty clear that NONE of the shareholders have anywhere near the amount of interest in or reverence for archival material the way fans and scholars of the band do.

I think some members have been more enthusiastic than others about it, and have tended to be happy to sign off on such things.

But I don't think any of the members have, unprompted, spearheaded campaigns to release archival material. They don't see the intrinsic value in it the way we do. Which is unfortunate for us, and also for them.

That being said, what's going on with "Feel Flows" is not really the same sort of thing. There are parties that have been and continue to be fine and supportive with putting out "Feel Flows." The hold ups, and then separately the issue of removing Dennis material, are more specific, deliberate undertakings by certain parties that go well beyond just simply not being actively enthusiastic about such things.

[mtaber]

It is my opinion that anyone who supports Mike in any of the band’s numerous controversies since the 1960’s simply hasn’t been paying attention.  

[mtaber]

It is my opinion that anyone who supports Mike in any of the band’s numerous controversies since the 1960’s simply hasn’t been paying attention.  

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Sweet vindication for me and OSD!

Why not bitter or sour vindication ?

 You would enjoy being vindicated even if it means we all miss out ?

I’m sure you would prefer we don’t miss out, but this attitude suggests otherwise.

That's just about the most effed up response to a post that I can think of unless you're trying to out do AGD here. Of course we feel vindicated!! And even if Mike Love  is not the reason for the holdup, he's rich white trash and both SB and I have been attacked without mercy for trying to make people understand that Mike Love is only out for one person and that's his own lonely ego infested grudge holding overpaid self. You owe an apology for your insidious remarks.