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Author Topic: Feel Flows box set  (Read 168421 times)
rab2591
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« Reply #1425 on: September 08, 2020, 07:42:20 AM »

Quote
And if you're right, that Feel Flows MUST come out before Dec 31st, then what is everybody fretting about?

HeyJude answered this question pages back and I even quoted it yesterday in direct response to your exact question. Please read his post(s) carefully.

@freakysmiley, thanks for commenting there! I would be surprised if they answered you, but it was definitely worth a shot.

It is promising that they shared an article about ĎSunflowerí - surely this must mean something?
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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #1426 on: September 08, 2020, 07:56:25 AM »

ESQ was rude as sh*t to freakysmiley..., Roll Eyes
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And production aside, Iíd so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #1427 on: September 08, 2020, 08:30:25 AM »


And for those very same folks who are now lashing out at ESQ for saying that a 1000-signature petition is not enough to move the profit-motive needle, hereís a bit of news: Itís NOT enough to move the needle. Iím not saying this to defend ESQ (Iíve never read an issue) but reality is reality.

The problem isn't specifically ESQ commenting on the lack of efficacy of a petition, but rather the aversion to covering this story/issue AT ALL. As I said before, it's not surprising, it's just unfortunate. ESQ has had some great writers come in to write some great scholarly/research articles. But the magazine as a whole has never and still doesn't live up to the billing as the Beach Boys "Publication of Record." It strays away from any difficult or important issues surrounding the band. No difficult questions are asked.

That ESQ hasn't even appeared to *politely ask* any members about why the box isn't coming out speaks volumes. That ESQ would belittle a petition (however minimally it might actually bring any change) also speaks volumes.

I keep hearing comments like ďWhy wonít The Beach Boys just take my money?Ē. Answer: because there is no money to make on a project like this. Just consider the research costs, studio time, final mastering costs, legal fees, manufacturing costs, promotion costs, etc. And when (years from now) it finally makes a profit, it will be divided among several estates.

At most, Feel Flows is a legacy release. A money-losing vanity piece that would hopefully remind everybody how truly great the 1970-1971 Beach Boys were. And at the very least, Feel Flows is fancy damage control release for the sole purpose of retaining European copyrights (if thatís even a real thing anymore).

With all due respect, I don't think you need to new-member-splain to a 15-year-old Beach Boys message board the popularity and selling power of 1970s Beach Boys material. Many of the folks in this thread have been fans for decades and decades and have been online since the 90s. We're well aware what the big sellers are.

That being said, your characterization of the situation is inaccurate and incomplete. "Feel Flows", like "Sunshine Tomorrow" and other similar sets, would never burn up the sales charts. EVERYBODY knows that.

But BRI owns the materials, a box set would be sold at a premium, and overhead costs are not excessive on such sets.

Knowing the sales potential, BRI greenlit this set, as they have done many others in the past.

Also, as others have already pointed out, all those overheard costs have *already* been paid out. All that's left to do is bring money in.


I have no idea what any of the individual Beach Boys are thinking, but if I were to make a guess, I would GUESS that Mike is thinking solely in reunion terms, which is to say, people will be starving for uncomplicated fun in 2021Ö maybe a 60-date 60th anniversary summer/fall tour with guest stars galoreÖ a cheesy new Beach Boys ďDuetsĒ CDs on the endcap of every Target and Walmart, plus a MIC-style career-spanning box in late 2021.

Wrong. None of that has anything to do with the delays. Further, Mike has already re-booked his own 2020 shows for 2021. There's an open question about how much *anybody* will be touring next year, but if tours ramp back up, it'll be Mike's band.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 08:45:24 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #1428 on: September 08, 2020, 08:36:31 AM »

You make a great point. They've paid for the research/studio time/liner notes part already... so who knows? Maybe there's a desire (by someone?) to take the best items from the Feel Flows set and roll them into a 2021 career-spanning set. That's a just a guess. I sincerely hope not!


Your guess is wrong. It has been explained numerous times that the delays have nothing to do with the content of the set. While I suppose that didn't specifically spell out precluding this scenario ("saving" the material for some other career-spanning set), I will specifically say that that is *not* the plan, and the delays on "Feel Flows" have nothing to do with wanting the material for some *other* release down the road.

I've also already mentioned in past posts that marketability/fear of low sales, etc. have *nothing* to do with the delays.

BRI did not greenlight and pay for the set to be 100% completed and then realize "oh s**t, a 1970/71 boxed set won't outsell hits compilations!" They've released a slew of both physical and digital archival releases, and everybody on all sides (the band members, shareholders, the label, the people working on the sets) are *very well aware* of the potential sales for such releases.
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« Reply #1429 on: September 08, 2020, 08:43:48 AM »


And if you're right, that Feel Flows MUST come out before Dec 31st, then what is everybody fretting about?


This question/issue has been answered about a thousand times already in this thread.

If you don't understand the machinations involved in these releases, that they are justified/kickstarted by the "copyright extension" need, but then expanded far beyond that scope, if you don't understand why that is a delicate dance to make happen/get approved, on top of the already-difficult process involved with *anything* to do with this band, then it's not much worth discussing.

What will potentially/likely happen if the full physical boxed set isn't released this year has been explained many times already. A digital dump will likely be needed. But it'll deflate (both symbolically and literally) the larger, full set. For painfully obvious reasons.
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« Reply #1430 on: September 08, 2020, 10:37:36 AM »

Mine was rhetorical question. If I were looking for serious answers re: copyright extension Iíd consult a music lawyer (and even they donít seem to agree on the European copyright thing). Some musicians including The Beach Boys have just been playing it safe Ė thatís all.

I just think itís funny that the very same posters who used to carefully explain in legal terms why The Beach Boys were releasing piles of session outtakes and concerts are the same people who are now explaining how only unreleased songs are in copyright peril. Itís almost as if nobody knows anything. Including me.

I think itís possible we get a 5CD boxset.
I think itís possible we get a large digital dump at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get a bare bones handful of 1970 songs at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get nothing.


Quote
And if you're right, that Feel Flows MUST come out before Dec 31st, then what is everybody fretting about?

HeyJude answered this question pages back and I even quoted it yesterday in direct response to your exact question. Please read his post(s) carefully.

@freakysmiley, thanks for commenting there! I would be surprised if they answered you, but it was definitely worth a shot.

It is promising that they shared an article about ĎSunflowerí - surely this must mean something?
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spring-baby
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« Reply #1431 on: September 08, 2020, 10:56:53 AM »

New-member-splaining? Itís been 8 years since my last post but heck time flies and I havenít felt the need. Sorry.

Consider it decades-of-experience-splaining. The overhead costs are extremely high and your comments show me youíve had no experience in this. Youíre just talking.

If lavish Beach Boys box sets made money, theyíd make one every year. Even those McCartney sets (which I love BTW) are break-even at best. Theyíre just legacy-establishing pieces. Grab Ďem while you can folks.



And for those very same folks who are now lashing out at ESQ for saying that a 1000-signature petition is not enough to move the profit-motive needle, hereís a bit of news: Itís NOT enough to move the needle. Iím not saying this to defend ESQ (Iíve never read an issue) but reality is reality.

The problem isn't specifically ESQ commenting on the lack of efficacy of a petition, but rather the aversion to covering this story/issue AT ALL. As I said before, it's not surprising, it's just unfortunate. ESQ has had some great writers come in to write some great scholarly/research articles. But the magazine as a whole has never and still doesn't live up to the billing as the Beach Boys "Publication of Record." It strays away from any difficult or important issues surrounding the band. No difficult questions are asked.

That ESQ hasn't even appeared to *politely ask* any members about why the box isn't coming out speaks volumes. That ESQ would belittle a petition (however minimally it might actually bring any change) also speaks volumes.

I keep hearing comments like ďWhy wonít The Beach Boys just take my money?Ē. Answer: because there is no money to make on a project like this. Just consider the research costs, studio time, final mastering costs, legal fees, manufacturing costs, promotion costs, etc. And when (years from now) it finally makes a profit, it will be divided among several estates.

At most, Feel Flows is a legacy release. A money-losing vanity piece that would hopefully remind everybody how truly great the 1970-1971 Beach Boys were. And at the very least, Feel Flows is fancy damage control release for the sole purpose of retaining European copyrights (if thatís even a real thing anymore).

With all due respect, I don't think you need to new-member-splain to a 15-year-old Beach Boys message board the popularity and selling power of 1970s Beach Boys material. Many of the folks in this thread have been fans for decades and decades and have been online since the 90s. We're well aware what the big sellers are.

That being said, your characterization of the situation is inaccurate and incomplete. "Feel Flows", like "Sunshine Tomorrow" and other similar sets, would never burn up the sales charts. EVERYBODY knows that.

But BRI owns the materials, a box set would be sold at a premium, and overhead costs are not excessive on such sets.

Knowing the sales potential, BRI greenlit this set, as they have done many others in the past.

Also, as others have already pointed out, all those overheard costs have *already* been paid out. All that's left to do is bring money in.


I have no idea what any of the individual Beach Boys are thinking, but if I were to make a guess, I would GUESS that Mike is thinking solely in reunion terms, which is to say, people will be starving for uncomplicated fun in 2021Ö maybe a 60-date 60th anniversary summer/fall tour with guest stars galoreÖ a cheesy new Beach Boys ďDuetsĒ CDs on the endcap of every Target and Walmart, plus a MIC-style career-spanning box in late 2021.

Wrong. None of that has anything to do with the delays. Further, Mike has already re-booked his own 2020 shows for 2021. There's an open question about how much *anybody* will be touring next year, but if tours ramp back up, it'll be Mike's band.

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DonnyL
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« Reply #1432 on: September 08, 2020, 11:00:11 AM »

Mine was rhetorical question. If I were looking for serious answers re: copyright extension Iíd consult a music lawyer (and even they donít seem to agree on the European copyright thing). Some musicians including The Beach Boys have just been playing it safe Ė thatís all.

I just think itís funny that the very same posters who used to carefully explain in legal terms why The Beach Boys were releasing piles of session outtakes and concerts are the same people who are now explaining how only unreleased songs are in copyright peril. Itís almost as if nobody knows anything. Including me.

I think itís possible we get a 5CD boxset.
I think itís possible we get a large digital dump at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get a bare bones handful of 1970 songs at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get nothing.


Quote
And if you're right, that Feel Flows MUST come out before Dec 31st, then what is everybody fretting about?

HeyJude answered this question pages back and I even quoted it yesterday in direct response to your exact question. Please read his post(s) carefully.

@freakysmiley, thanks for commenting there! I would be surprised if they answered you, but it was definitely worth a shot.

It is promising that they shared an article about ĎSunflowerí - surely this must mean something?

The copyright situation is fairly easy to understand, at least in terms of practical considerations and recordings that need to be released. What are you confused about?

1- Compositions and sound recordings are separate copyrights.
2- Any compositions that have not been published need to be released by 12/31 in some form, to be protected. [EDIT: *Might be wrong on this point, however it's moot because any relevant previously unreleased composition would be associated with an unreleased sound recording, so see point 3]
3- Any unique sound recordings that have not been published need to be released by 12/31. My understanding is an alternate version/mix from the same recording session would be considered covered if released (i.e., a vocals only mix, take 1 vs. take 17, etc.).


What they clearly did on the 1969 set was to quietly release a sort of "alternate" take of "I'm Going Your Way" to fulfill the copyright, while presumably the more final version would be on Feel Flows. They did not need to release any of the other 1969 totally unreleased tracks (aside from "Carnival"), as these have all been released in some form or another.

Looking at Feel Flows, it is clear that a copyright dump is not the same thing as an archive project at this point. With every release, the compilers/producers have included tons of material they don't have to include. Presumably they have also left out material that is deemed never to be released at all, and has not been booted. The main point here is that if there is any possibility that they may want to release it, and/or it has been circulated in some form - it needs to be included.

This includes live recordings. For instance, if there is a recording of Brian performing at the Whisky in 1970 - it seems any surviving sound recordings may become public domain in the UK on 1/1.

There are a myriad of factors beyond the surface here. IMO "Seasons in the Sun" and "Big Sur" would be key tracks to lead the set as "singles" or promos for marketing purposes. "Seasons in the Sun" sounds like a lost BB hit, and it's appealing that the group recorded it prior to the Terry Jacks version. If you guys think we're getting the full copyright dump of "Seasons in the Sun" in good quality - how would you feel if it's in the form of  a 30-second  "Take 4, alternate mix" which features Carl's scratch vocal, and talking and laughing? How would you feel if there's a soundboard recording of Brian at the Whisky, but we get the bootlegged audience recording for the dump?

How would you feel if those kinds of tracks are all we ever get, because the potential lack of releasing Feel Flows by the end of 2020 negates the need for any kind of lavish, comprehensive set? What if the same thing happens in 2021?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 02:40:40 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #1433 on: September 08, 2020, 11:04:32 AM »

I may be "wrong". I guess time will tell. You seem quite authoritative though. Sounds like I have so much to learn from you.


You make a great point. They've paid for the research/studio time/liner notes part already... so who knows? Maybe there's a desire (by someone?) to take the best items from the Feel Flows set and roll them into a 2021 career-spanning set. That's a just a guess. I sincerely hope not!


Your guess is wrong. It has been explained numerous times that the delays have nothing to do with the content of the set. While I suppose that didn't specifically spell out precluding this scenario ("saving" the material for some other career-spanning set), I will specifically say that that is *not* the plan, and the delays on "Feel Flows" have nothing to do with wanting the material for some *other* release down the road.

I've also already mentioned in past posts that marketability/fear of low sales, etc. have *nothing* to do with the delays.

BRI did not greenlight and pay for the set to be 100% completed and then realize "oh s**t, a 1970/71 boxed set won't outsell hits compilations!" They've released a slew of both physical and digital archival releases, and everybody on all sides (the band members, shareholders, the label, the people working on the sets) are *very well aware* of the potential sales for such releases.
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rab2591
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« Reply #1434 on: September 08, 2020, 11:08:26 AM »

spring baby,

Are you this ďpersuasiveĒ in your everyday life? Did you insult your way into a promotion, a raise, or a first date maybe? Have you successfully shamed your neighbors or co-workers into voting for your preferred candidate this fall?
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« Reply #1435 on: September 08, 2020, 11:08:29 AM »

Also, though I signed it on the first day, I don't really think the petition will have much effect on anything here. IMO it seems like a way for us fans to feel like we're "doing something" or taking some kind of action to change things, when we may not be able to. I'm also thinking that the relatively low number of signatures on it might actually hurt more than it helps. Better ways to influence change might be to be individually creative and figure out our own ways to influence the proceedings, if that's even possible. One man's opinion.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 11:10:11 AM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #1436 on: September 08, 2020, 11:23:45 AM »

Also, though I signed it on the first day, I don't really think the petition will have much effect on anything here. IMO it seems like a way for us fans to feel like we're "doing something" or taking some kind of action to change things, when we may not be able to. I'm also thinking that the relatively low number of signatures on it might actually hurt more than it helps. Better ways to influence change might be to be individually creative and figure out our own ways to influence the proceedings, if that's even possible. One man's opinion.

The way I see it, and Iíve said it many many times: given that the petition has spread by word-of-mouth (basically) I am shocked the number is as high as it is now. The trophy hunting petition only started gaining major traction after the media/BW picked up on the story. This petition hasnít had any boost from anyone in any higher standing of the band or media. Which is why people like me would love for ESQ to post about it.

In my mind, this petition was more about raising awareness of the issue to band members, camp members, media, etc who could possibly nudge whoever is blocking this set into greenlighting it - is this completely unrealistic? Probably, but itís all we have left at this point.

The low number of the petition shouldnít hurt anything. The label wants to release this thing, likely because they have actual sales projections. A small petition circulating on one Beach boys forum and some Beach boys related Facebook posts wouldnít have any negative impact.
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« Reply #1437 on: September 08, 2020, 11:29:15 AM »

You're just regurgitating the same stuff we've been reading on message boards for 7 years. Does anyone stop to consider whether these copyright "facts" are even accurate? The only thing I'm confused about is why some fans are posing as copyright experts.



Mine was rhetorical question. If I were looking for serious answers re: copyright extension Iíd consult a music lawyer (and even they donít seem to agree on the European copyright thing). Some musicians including The Beach Boys have just been playing it safe Ė thatís all.

I just think itís funny that the very same posters who used to carefully explain in legal terms why The Beach Boys were releasing piles of session outtakes and concerts are the same people who are now explaining how only unreleased songs are in copyright peril. Itís almost as if nobody knows anything. Including me.

I think itís possible we get a 5CD boxset.
I think itís possible we get a large digital dump at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get a bare bones handful of 1970 songs at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get nothing.


Quote
And if you're right, that Feel Flows MUST come out before Dec 31st, then what is everybody fretting about?

HeyJude answered this question pages back and I even quoted it yesterday in direct response to your exact question. Please read his post(s) carefully.

@freakysmiley, thanks for commenting there! I would be surprised if they answered you, but it was definitely worth a shot.

It is promising that they shared an article about ĎSunflowerí - surely this must mean something?

The copyright situation is fairly easy to understand, at least in terms of practical considerations and recordings that need to be released. What are you confused about?

1- Compositions and sound recordings are separate copyrights.
2- Any compositions that have not been published need to be released by 12/31 in some form, to be protected.
3- Any unique sound recordings that have not been published need to be released by 12/31. My understanding is an alternate version/mix from the same recording session would be considered covered if released (i.e., a vocals only mix, take 1 vs. take 17, etc.).


What they clearly did on the 1969 set was to quietly release a sort of "alternate" take of "I'm Going Your Way" to fulfill the copyright, while presumably the more final version would be on Feel Flows. They did not need to release any of the other 1969 totally unreleased tracks (aside from "Carnival"), as these have all been released in some form or another.

Looking at Feel Flows, it is clear that a copyright dump is not the same thing as an archive project at this point. With every release, the compilers/producers have included tons of material they don't have to include. Presumably they have also left out material that is deemed never to be released at all, and has not been booted. The main point here is that if there is any possibility that they may want to release it, and/or it has been circulated in some form - it needs to be included.

This includes live recordings. For instance, if there is a recording of Brian performing at the Whisky in 1970 - it seems any surviving sound recordings may become public domain in the UK on 1/1.

There are a myriad of factors beyond the surface here. IMO "Seasons in the Sun" and "Big Sur" would be key tracks to lead the set as "singles" or promos for marketing purposes. "Seasons in the Sun" sounds like a lost BB hit, and it's appealing that the group recorded it prior to the Terry Jacks version. If you guys think we're getting the full copyright dump of "Seasons in the Sun" in good quality - how would you feel if it's in the form of  a 30-second  "Take 4, alternate mix" which features Carl's scratch vocal, and talking and laughing? How would you feel if there's a soundboard recording of Brian at the Whisky, but we get the bootlegged audience recording for the dump?

How would you feel if those kinds of tracks are all we ever get, because the potential lack of releasing Feel Flows by the end of 2020 negates the need for any kind of lavish, comprehensive set? What if the same thing happens in 2021?
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« Reply #1438 on: September 08, 2020, 11:32:04 AM »

Good point. I'll own that! I'm being too snarky.

spring baby,

Are you this ďpersuasiveĒ in your everyday life? Did you insult your way into a promotion, a raise, or a first date maybe? Have you successfully shamed your neighbors or co-workers into voting for your preferred candidate this fall?
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« Reply #1439 on: September 08, 2020, 11:46:55 AM »

You're just regurgitating the same stuff we've been reading on message boards for 7 years. Does anyone stop to consider whether these copyright "facts" are even accurate? The only thing I'm confused about is why some fans are posing as copyright experts.

Feel free to research it yourself. It might clear up some confusion.
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« Reply #1440 on: September 08, 2020, 12:40:45 PM »

You're just regurgitating the same stuff we've been reading on message boards for 7 years. Does anyone stop to consider whether these copyright "facts" are even accurate? The only thing I'm confused about is why some fans are posing as copyright experts.

These members you call "fans posing as copyright experts" are either musicians who have been involved with both labels and their own releases (and have worked with legacy artists personally), or have been in and around the Beach Boys circles of information for several decades who have interacted with key players on several fronts. That can be vouched for but it shouldn't need to be. I'd listen to what they're saying before trying to write them off as "fans" who don't know. And as was illustrated above, the whole process isn't a one-size-fits-all scenario in how the different bands and labels (and publishers) are handling these new rules.

If that's not enough info, as someone already suggested, consider getting in touch with a copyright lawyer and ask more specific questions to get those specific answers. Otherwise, I'd reconsider writing off people posting here as fans pretending to be lawyers, because that's just not fair and it's throwing shade on people who are directly answering your questions from places of experience.

Just consider beyond this, the question *why* are fan efforts to do something or anything to help get the word to the right people being dismissed, mocked, and outright denigrated by certain individuals and circles?

Calling fans talking about this set entitled and spoiled...hmmm, I also remember several years ago a Brian Wilson tour of the UK was postponed and some of the same loud voices blasting fans supporting this set were acting as if a criminal offense had been committed and spinning several false reasons why the concerts were not held. Entitlement, et tu? Funny how things turn like that.

My own opinions are that there has been a weird dynamic where certain outlets and voices act as if their word is law, and fans get lectures and finger-wagging whenever some opinions start getting heard that go against the preferred narrative. Getting lectured and being told fans should apologize to the band members for voicing opinions, really? If fans want lectures and finger-wagging when their opinions need to be set straight by those circles, you know where to find them. And it's been on full display with this box set. Fans are basically being told to shut up, yet again, and their efforts don't matter because there are more important things to be concerned with. The petition doesn't matter, it's a waste of time, the numbers are a joke. Is that what fans want? Being told what to think, what to be happy about buying, to not rock the boat, here's what's coming out and be happy it's being offered, don't be so entitled and whiny, etc. Again, you know now where to find it. Some of us know where and how to avoid it just the same.

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« Reply #1441 on: September 08, 2020, 01:08:47 PM »

@freakysmiley, thanks for commenting there! I would be surprised if they answered you, but it was definitely worth a shot.

It is promising that they shared an article about ĎSunflowerí - surely this must mean something?

Honestly I'm not exactly holding my breath in anticipation of a response either, but I figure it will be both LESS likely to be deleted/hidden by BW's social media moderators and MORE likely to be seen by his SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER NUMBER OF SUBSCRIBERS/FOLLOWERS.
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« Reply #1442 on: September 08, 2020, 01:13:39 PM »

Also, though I signed it on the first day, I don't really think the petition will have much effect on anything here. IMO it seems like a way for us fans to feel like we're "doing something" or taking some kind of action to change things, when we may not be able to. I'm also thinking that the relatively low number of signatures on it might actually hurt more than it helps. Better ways to influence change might be to be individually creative and figure out our own ways to influence the proceedings, if that's even possible. One man's opinion.

The way I see it, and Iíve said it many many times: given that the petition has spread by word-of-mouth (basically) I am shocked the number is as high as it is now. The trophy hunting petition only started gaining major traction after the media/BW picked up on the story. This petition hasnít had any boost from anyone in any higher standing of the band or media. Which is why people like me would love for ESQ to post about it.

In my mind, this petition was more about raising awareness of the issue to band members, camp members, media, etc who could possibly nudge whoever is blocking this set into greenlighting it - is this completely unrealistic? Probably, but itís all we have left at this point.

The low number of the petition shouldnít hurt anything. The label wants to release this thing, likely because they have actual sales projections. A small petition circulating on one Beach boys forum and some Beach boys related Facebook posts wouldnít have any negative impact.

That's a fair opinion, though I do disagree personally. Also the trophy hunting thing is a good example - you're correct that it raised awareness, but ultimately it did not stop the gig and potentially caused further rifts (no idea if it did or not).

*I'm not against the petition, for the record - it's fine/whatever. I just don't believe it will be effective.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 01:18:30 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #1443 on: September 08, 2020, 01:14:35 PM »

You're just regurgitating the same stuff we've been reading on message boards for 7 years. Does anyone stop to consider whether these copyright "facts" are even accurate? The only thing I'm confused about is why some fans are posing as copyright experts.



Mine was rhetorical question. If I were looking for serious answers re: copyright extension Iíd consult a music lawyer (and even they donít seem to agree on the European copyright thing). Some musicians including The Beach Boys have just been playing it safe Ė thatís all.

I just think itís funny that the very same posters who used to carefully explain in legal terms why The Beach Boys were releasing piles of session outtakes and concerts are the same people who are now explaining how only unreleased songs are in copyright peril. Itís almost as if nobody knows anything. Including me.

I think itís possible we get a 5CD boxset.
I think itís possible we get a large digital dump at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get a bare bones handful of 1970 songs at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get nothing.


Quote
And if you're right, that Feel Flows MUST come out before Dec 31st, then what is everybody fretting about?

HeyJude answered this question pages back and I even quoted it yesterday in direct response to your exact question. Please read his post(s) carefully.

@freakysmiley, thanks for commenting there! I would be surprised if they answered you, but it was definitely worth a shot.

It is promising that they shared an article about ĎSunflowerí - surely this must mean something?

The copyright situation is fairly easy to understand, at least in terms of practical considerations and recordings that need to be released. What are you confused about?

1- Compositions and sound recordings are separate copyrights.
2- Any compositions that have not been published need to be released by 12/31 in some form, to be protected.
3- Any unique sound recordings that have not been published need to be released by 12/31. My understanding is an alternate version/mix from the same recording session would be considered covered if released (i.e., a vocals only mix, take 1 vs. take 17, etc.).


What they clearly did on the 1969 set was to quietly release a sort of "alternate" take of "I'm Going Your Way" to fulfill the copyright, while presumably the more final version would be on Feel Flows. They did not need to release any of the other 1969 totally unreleased tracks (aside from "Carnival"), as these have all been released in some form or another.

Looking at Feel Flows, it is clear that a copyright dump is not the same thing as an archive project at this point. With every release, the compilers/producers have included tons of material they don't have to include. Presumably they have also left out material that is deemed never to be released at all, and has not been booted. The main point here is that if there is any possibility that they may want to release it, and/or it has been circulated in some form - it needs to be included.

This includes live recordings. For instance, if there is a recording of Brian performing at the Whisky in 1970 - it seems any surviving sound recordings may become public domain in the UK on 1/1.

There are a myriad of factors beyond the surface here. IMO "Seasons in the Sun" and "Big Sur" would be key tracks to lead the set as "singles" or promos for marketing purposes. "Seasons in the Sun" sounds like a lost BB hit, and it's appealing that the group recorded it prior to the Terry Jacks version. If you guys think we're getting the full copyright dump of "Seasons in the Sun" in good quality - how would you feel if it's in the form of  a 30-second  "Take 4, alternate mix" which features Carl's scratch vocal, and talking and laughing? How would you feel if there's a soundboard recording of Brian at the Whisky, but we get the bootlegged audience recording for the dump?

How would you feel if those kinds of tracks are all we ever get, because the potential lack of releasing Feel Flows by the end of 2020 negates the need for any kind of lavish, comprehensive set? What if the same thing happens in 2021?

I haven't "regurgitated" anything dude - I'm familiar w/ (US) copyright law and I've researched this. You seem to be confused about how it works, so I'll ask again - in what areas are you confused? I can probably clear that up, as I am not confused about how it works. I do not consider myself an expert, but the meat and potatoes of it (and the practical implications) are not difficult to understand.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 01:33:54 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #1444 on: September 08, 2020, 01:17:49 PM »

Calling fans talking about this set entitled and spoiled...hmmm, I also remember several years ago a Brian Wilson tour of the UK was postponed and some of the same loud voices blasting fans supporting this set were acting as if a criminal offense had been committed and spinning several false reasons why the concerts were not held. Entitlement, et tu? Funny how things turn like that.

LOL even more funny considering how much obnoxious whining that group did regarding Brian playing more "final" Pet Sounds shows...Did they want Brian Wilson to play the UK or didn't they?

Just consider beyond this, the question *why* are fan efforts to do something or anything to help get the word to the right people being dismissed, mocked, and outright denigrated by certain individuals and circles?

And consider who those circles/individuals frequently defend (or more telling, which camp they chastise often)...

Honestly I'm not exactly holding my breath in anticipation of a response either, but I figure it will be both LESS likely to be deleted/hidden by BW's social media moderators and MORE likely to be seen by his SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER NUMBER OF SUBSCRIBERS/FOLLOWERS.

Good point.

1,329 have signed, next goalpost is at 1,500. Hopefully it keeps getting signatures.

That's a fair opinion, though I do disagree personally. Also the trophy hunting thing is a good example - you're correct that it raised awareness, but ultimately it did not stop the gig and potentially caused further rifts (no idea if it did or not).

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from too. Time will tell I suppose.
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« Reply #1445 on: September 08, 2020, 01:19:49 PM »

Mine was rhetorical question. If I were looking for serious answers re: copyright extension Iíd consult a music lawyer (and even they donít seem to agree on the European copyright thing). Some musicians including The Beach Boys have just been playing it safe Ė thatís all.

I just think itís funny that the very same posters who used to carefully explain in legal terms why The Beach Boys were releasing piles of session outtakes and concerts are the same people who are now explaining how only unreleased songs are in copyright peril. Itís almost as if nobody knows anything. Including me.

I think itís possible we get a 5CD boxset.
I think itís possible we get a large digital dump at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get a bare bones handful of 1970 songs at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get nothing.


I think the continual disconnect with a few people who seem to be determined to burst into the room and tell everyone "nobody knows anything, so what's the point?" is that some people DO know something. Some people know enough about what's going on that they know better than to make a list of 50 "possible" outcomes in all of this, and then sit back and fold their arms and say "any of this could happen, none of us know, so what's the big deal?"

In terms of discussing the "Feel Flows" set, if you're focusing on the "legal" aspect of copyright extension, then you're missing the entire point. As others have said, the "Copyright Extension" sets are pretty clear in their prompts. They cover small hand fulls of tracks that *probably* need protection, and then they use the opportunity to then also EXPAND the sets to include a lot of stuff they *don't* have to.

The only reason any of that is even germane to "Feel Flows" is that there is a *wide* gap between what probably *needs* to be released before the end of the year, and what is actually on the set. The decision to release the actual prepared boxed set before the end of the year could be the difference between a multi-disc boxed set and that 2019 "I'm Going Your Way" EP.

But again, delving into who is an "expert" in copyright extension is entirely missing the point. The box was already authorized to prepare and is ready to go. The machinations going on right now have nothing to do with the legalities of copyright extension. As stated above, the only area where that comes into play is in a scenario where the set *doesn't* come out soon enough, or at all. That then sets in motion several possible outcomes, none of which are preferable to just releasing the full set, and most of which are quite worse.
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« Reply #1446 on: September 08, 2020, 01:27:53 PM »

Mine was rhetorical question. If I were looking for serious answers re: copyright extension Iíd consult a music lawyer (and even they donít seem to agree on the European copyright thing). Some musicians including The Beach Boys have just been playing it safe Ė thatís all.

I just think itís funny that the very same posters who used to carefully explain in legal terms why The Beach Boys were releasing piles of session outtakes and concerts are the same people who are now explaining how only unreleased songs are in copyright peril. Itís almost as if nobody knows anything. Including me.

I think itís possible we get a 5CD boxset.
I think itís possible we get a large digital dump at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get a bare bones handful of 1970 songs at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get nothing.


I think the continual disconnect with a few people who seem to be determined to burst into the room and tell everyone "nobody knows anything, so what's the point?" is that some people DO know something. Some people know enough about what's going on that they know better than to make a list of 50 "possible" outcomes in all of this, and then sit back and fold their arms and say "any of this could happen, none of us know, so what's the big deal?"

In terms of discussing the "Feel Flows" set, if you're focusing on the "legal" aspect of copyright extension, then you're missing the entire point. As others have said, the "Copyright Extension" sets are pretty clear in their prompts. They cover small hand fulls of tracks that *probably* need protection, and then they use the opportunity to then also EXPAND the sets to include a lot of stuff they *don't* have to.

The only reason any of that is even germane to "Feel Flows" is that there is a *wide* gap between what probably *needs* to be released before the end of the year, and what is actually on the set. The decision to release the actual prepared boxed set before the end of the year could be the difference between a multi-disc boxed set and that 2019 "I'm Going Your Way" EP.

But again, delving into who is an "expert" in copyright extension is entirely missing the point. The box was already authorized to prepare and is ready to go. The machinations going on right now have nothing to do with the legalities of copyright extension. As stated above, the only area where that comes into play is in a scenario where the set *doesn't* come out soon enough, or at all. That then sets in motion several possible outcomes, none of which are preferable to just releasing the full set, and most of which are quite worse.


What else do you think could be done by fans to further the release of this set?
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« Reply #1447 on: September 08, 2020, 01:29:21 PM »

New-member-splaining? Itís been 8 years since my last post but heck time flies and I havenít felt the need. Sorry.

Consider it decades-of-experience-splaining. The overhead costs are extremely high and your comments show me youíve had no experience in this. Youíre just talking.

If lavish Beach Boys box sets made money, theyíd make one every year. Even those McCartney sets (which I love BTW) are break-even at best. Theyíre just legacy-establishing pieces. Grab Ďem while you can folks.


My apologies. I should have said "Never-contributes-to-discussions-splaining".

What we do know is that BRI paid for it. What we do all know is that, whatever those costs, *nearly all of them have already been spent*.

You're not the first person to try to burst into the conversation (seemingly without having read the entire thread, or not retaining the information in any event), claim some nebulous amount of experience/knowledge, and then go on to offer a bunch of general observations, without having any inside information about what's going on with this set, and that ignore the 60 years of weird Beach Boys politics.

NOBODY claims these sets make a ton of money. If you knew enough about the industry, and more specifically about the history of the band vis-a-vis archival releases and also vis-a-vis their attitude over the years regarding post-60s material, you'd know very well how precarious a set like "Feel Flows" could be as it attempts to be undertaken. Read Howie's posts. This thing almost died several times before it even happened.

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« Reply #1448 on: September 08, 2020, 01:34:27 PM »

Mine was rhetorical question. If I were looking for serious answers re: copyright extension Iíd consult a music lawyer (and even they donít seem to agree on the European copyright thing). Some musicians including The Beach Boys have just been playing it safe Ė thatís all.

I just think itís funny that the very same posters who used to carefully explain in legal terms why The Beach Boys were releasing piles of session outtakes and concerts are the same people who are now explaining how only unreleased songs are in copyright peril. Itís almost as if nobody knows anything. Including me.

I think itís possible we get a 5CD boxset.
I think itís possible we get a large digital dump at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get a bare bones handful of 1970 songs at the end of the year.
I think itís possible we get nothing.


I think the continual disconnect with a few people who seem to be determined to burst into the room and tell everyone "nobody knows anything, so what's the point?" is that some people DO know something. Some people know enough about what's going on that they know better than to make a list of 50 "possible" outcomes in all of this, and then sit back and fold their arms and say "any of this could happen, none of us know, so what's the big deal?"

In terms of discussing the "Feel Flows" set, if you're focusing on the "legal" aspect of copyright extension, then you're missing the entire point. As others have said, the "Copyright Extension" sets are pretty clear in their prompts. They cover small hand fulls of tracks that *probably* need protection, and then they use the opportunity to then also EXPAND the sets to include a lot of stuff they *don't* have to.

The only reason any of that is even germane to "Feel Flows" is that there is a *wide* gap between what probably *needs* to be released before the end of the year, and what is actually on the set. The decision to release the actual prepared boxed set before the end of the year could be the difference between a multi-disc boxed set and that 2019 "I'm Going Your Way" EP.

But again, delving into who is an "expert" in copyright extension is entirely missing the point. The box was already authorized to prepare and is ready to go. The machinations going on right now have nothing to do with the legalities of copyright extension. As stated above, the only area where that comes into play is in a scenario where the set *doesn't* come out soon enough, or at all. That then sets in motion several possible outcomes, none of which are preferable to just releasing the full set, and most of which are quite worse.


What else do you think could be done by fans to further the release of this set?

All I can say is keep talking about it, letting everyone know the set EXISTS, and continue to let everyone know the fans want it, and that it's good for the band too.

I can't say how much a petition will impact things versus anything else.

I think a main point is that the *existence* of robust conversation about the set, across this board and social media, and petitions, is the most important aspect.

That's why venues like ESQ ignoring all of this is so disappointing. Who does it hurt to just say "hey, I'm hearing this amazing set was prepared and ready to go, so hey Beach Boys, please release this set!"
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« Reply #1449 on: September 08, 2020, 02:47:54 PM »

Based on that "87 reasons" comment a few pages back I'm gonna have to assume that the box set has 87 previously unreleased tracks, otherwise it's a reference to Kokomo (released in '87). A third possibility is that this all stems from a dispute about $87 someone lent to someone else decades ago (possibly to rent an instrument), and was never repaid!

How am I doing, HeyJude?
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