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652772 Posts in 26083 Topics by 3718 Members - Latest Member: CarlWilsonFan101 December 10, 2019, 12:12:31 AM
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Author Topic: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series  (Read 4241 times)
JK
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« Reply #75 on: November 26, 2019, 05:21:21 AM »

Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

- The use of the mandolin and associated instruments in Beach Boys and other '60s music. (Can't leave out your principal instrument.)

I think the more ideas with minimum additional costs the better--at least right now. Just my two euro cents worth. Roll Eyes
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I'm Grass and You're a Power Mower: A Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
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« Reply #76 on: November 26, 2019, 05:31:17 AM »

Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.


FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.
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JK
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Maybe I put too much faith in atmosphere


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« Reply #77 on: November 26, 2019, 05:58:48 AM »

Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. Grin
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"Ik bun moar een eenvoudige boerenlul en doar schoam ik mien niet veur" (Normaal, 1978)
I'm Grass and You're a Power Mower: A Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
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« Reply #78 on: November 26, 2019, 06:20:43 AM »

Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. Grin


It still sounds like a good idea--and I do plan a string scoring episode!  It will happen when I can figure out how to do 4 or 5 way split screen video so people can see me play all the parts at once!
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« Reply #79 on: November 26, 2019, 09:36:41 AM »

Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. Grin


It still sounds like a good idea--and I do plan a string scoring episode!  It will happen when I can figure out how to do 4 or 5 way split screen video so people can see me play all the parts at once!

That would be mind-boggling!  Y'know, another string score that doesn't really sound like a Brian arrangement is that for "In The Back Of My Mind". If it IS his, it would pretty much be his first, right? The strings on the Christmas album were scored by Dick Reynolds, and I don't think any of Brian's outside productions up to that point utilized strings. Makes me wonder if someone else didn't orchestrate that track. No AFM sheet has surfaced that might reveal an outside arranger, and no one's stepped forward to claim or assign credit to anyone else, though.
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« Reply #80 on: November 26, 2019, 10:38:04 AM »

Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. Grin


It still sounds like a good idea--and I do plan a string scoring episode!  It will happen when I can figure out how to do 4 or 5 way split screen video so people can see me play all the parts at once!

That would be mind-boggling!  Y'know, another string score that doesn't really sound like a Brian arrangement is that for "In The Back Of My Mind". If it IS his, it would pretty much be his first, right? The strings on the Christmas album were scored by Dick Reynolds, and I don't think any of Brian's outside productions up to that point utilized strings. Makes me wonder if someone else didn't orchestrate that track. No AFM sheet has surfaced that might reveal an outside arranger, and no one's stepped forward to claim or assign credit to anyone else, though.

From what I understand, Dick Reynolds either mentored or tutored Brian to some degree on the art of arranging for strings and bigger, traditional orchestras as heard on the Christmas album. So it would not be surprising if Brian may have had some basic ideas which were fleshed out in more detail for the strings by someone like Reynolds...if that's true that Reynolds was mentoring Brian in that area of arranging.

Consider there have been many all-time classic arrangements and compositions which started as exercises or projects by a music student. "Moonlight Serenade" was according to legend an exercise written by Glenn Miller when he was studying the Schillinger method of arranging and writing in the 1930's...and that Schillinger method eventually started the music school which would become Berklee. "Moonlight Serenade" is one of the finest compositions and arrangements of the 20th Century, and it started as a student exercise more or less, if the legend is true. So it's not unusual to think Brian and Reynolds may have been an arranger collaboration of sorts on examples as mentioned.

Any confirmation beyond my own that Brian either studied or learned some orchestral writing techniques from Dick Reynolds?
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« Reply #81 on: November 26, 2019, 11:01:54 AM »

It sounds a bit Dick Reynoldsy, filtered through Brian, maybe.  It's very clever little arrangement, with the pizzicato strings echoing but not copying the Billy Strange guitar part--whoever did the arrangement definitely had a good familiarity with the existing track.  And of course, the famous ending, which ends without resolution!
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« Reply #82 on: November 26, 2019, 12:16:17 PM »

It sounds a bit Dick Reynoldsy, filtered through Brian, maybe.  It's very clever little arrangement, with the pizzicato strings echoing but not copying the Billy Strange guitar part--whoever did the arrangement definitely had a good familiarity with the existing track.  And of course, the famous ending, which ends without resolution!

Yeah, I would bet the ending was Brian's idea!
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JK
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Maybe I put too much faith in atmosphere


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« Reply #83 on: November 26, 2019, 01:04:01 PM »

Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. Grin


It still sounds like a good idea--and I do plan a string scoring episode!  It will happen when I can figure out how to do 4 or 5 way split screen video so people can see me play all the parts at once!

That would be very cool! Perhaps Zach Wolfe can help--he used to post here for years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OvjxHSIsIQ

Nice to see a bit of action in this topic and "Don't Talk"...
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"Ik bun moar een eenvoudige boerenlul en doar schoam ik mien niet veur" (Normaal, 1978)
I'm Grass and You're a Power Mower: A Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
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« Reply #84 on: November 26, 2019, 01:22:05 PM »

Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. Grin


It still sounds like a good idea--and I do plan a string scoring episode!  It will happen when I can figure out how to do 4 or 5 way split screen video so people can see me play all the parts at once!

That would be very cool! Perhaps Zach Wolfe can help--he used to post here for years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OvjxHSIsIQ

Nice to see a bit of action in this topic and "Don't Talk"...

Wow, yeah, that's...a lot of split screen right there.  I'd imagine it's pretty easy given the right software...
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« Reply #85 on: November 26, 2019, 01:23:09 PM »

It sounds a bit Dick Reynoldsy, filtered through Brian, maybe.  It's very clever little arrangement, with the pizzicato strings echoing but not copying the Billy Strange guitar part--whoever did the arrangement definitely had a good familiarity with the existing track.  And of course, the famous ending, which ends without resolution!

Yeah, I would bet the ending was Brian's idea!


I wonder if it started with the strings resolving, and then Brian, after hearing it, asked they not play the last chord, or if it was always devised that way.
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« Reply #86 on: November 26, 2019, 01:26:41 PM »

Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??
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« Reply #87 on: November 26, 2019, 01:50:36 PM »

Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??

I now actually think the "12-string" on "Don't Hurt My Little Sister" is a 6-string, double-tracked to sound like a 12-string. That's what it sounds like to me, plus it was cut in June, and Carl supposedly didn't get his Rick 12 until after seeing "A Hard Day's Night", which hit U.S. theaters in August. The Fender XII was introduced until the very end of '64 or beginning of '65, the Mosrite wasn't that common yet, and there's no evidence of Carl owning a Bellzouki. If you listen to the session tapes on the S.O.T. boot, you can hear that the guitar intro was definitely double-tracked, and it sounds to me like a regular 6-string electric on both tracks.

However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?

As for authentic acoustic 12-string: I think Carl's strumming one on "We'll Run Away". He apparently owned around that time, as he's pictured backstage with one (in the shot where Mike and Brian are clowning around, Mike in a cowboy hat and all of them wearing glittery jackets, if memory serves).
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« Reply #88 on: November 26, 2019, 02:13:49 PM »

Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??

I now actually think the "12-string" on "Don't Hurt My Little Sister" is a 6-string, double-tracked to sound like a 12-string. That's what it sounds like to me, plus it was cut in June, and Carl supposedly didn't get his Rick 12 until after seeing "A Hard Day's Night", which hit U.S. theaters in August. The Fender XII was introduced until the very end of '64 or beginning of '65, the Mosrite wasn't that common yet, and there's no evidence of Carl owning a Bellzouki. If you listen to the session tapes on the S.O.T. boot, you can hear that the guitar intro was definitely double-tracked, and it sounds to me like a regular 6-string electric on both tracks.

However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?

As for authentic acoustic 12-string: I think Carl's strumming one on "We'll Run Away". He apparently owned around that time, as he's pictured backstage with one (in the shot where Mike and Brian are clowning around, Mike in a cowboy hat and all of them wearing glittery jackets, if memory serves).


It's a close call on Don't Hurt My Little Sister, isn't it!?  I agree that the part is doubled, and I was listening to the session today and starting to be skeptical about a 12 as well...  Would that make the first appearance of the electric 12 at a session the Dance Dance Dance sesh?

I'll check out Back Home and We'll Run Away.

As a side note--and one that will get some attention in my show--it's fascinating that Carol was savvy enough to have her guitar tech mod out a Guild T-150 to be an electric 12 string before electric 12s were all that available.  Long ago, she wrote that she and Barney Kessel were the first in LA to try to get electric 12 sounds with acoustic guitars, each of them installing pickups in their acoustic 12s.  Carol, probably having seen the Bellzoukis start to make their way into sessions, had the foresight to convert a six string, which she then used for years.  It makes you wonder if Barney (and others) did something similar to get a suitable electric 12-sound beyond the Bellzouki, until Rick and Fender and Mosrite and the other companies made stock models.  That's the kind of thing we might be hearing on some of those early-mid to mid-60s sessions!

And yes, when I have the money, I plan to mod a Guild Slim Jim into a 12-string so I can do guitar videos for I'm Waiting for the Day, God Only Knows, and maybe Caroline, No....
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« Reply #89 on: November 26, 2019, 02:29:36 PM »

Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??


However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?


Is Carol taking credit for the 12 string on that track? At Phil's request, Scott Turner showed up with "The Animal."
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« Reply #90 on: November 26, 2019, 02:45:13 PM »

Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??


However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?


Is Carol taking credit for the 12 string on that track?

No, but her name's on the AFM contract for "Back Home" '63, and to me the intro (as heard on the Made In California box set) sounds 12-stringish.
EDIT: unless you mean the Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me" track? Yeah, she apparently does take credit for that, as Wikipedia credits her with that intro.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 02:47:34 PM by c-man » Logged
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« Reply #91 on: November 26, 2019, 03:42:25 PM »

Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??

However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?


Is Carol taking credit for the 12 string on that track?

No, but her name's on the AFM contract for "Back Home" '63, and to me the intro (as heard on the Made In California box set) sounds 12-stringish.
EDIT: unless you mean the Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me" track? Yeah, she apparently does take credit for that, as Wikipedia credits her with that intro.


I meant the Crystals.

Not the Beach Boys, but on He's A Doll, Brian gets a simulated 12 string sound by doubling the single note electric guitar part with an electric piano (sounds like a Wurlitzer). That part and the turnaround after the first chorus shows a Then He Kissed Me Influence. 

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« Reply #92 on: November 26, 2019, 06:47:57 PM »

Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??


However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?


Is Carol taking credit for the 12 string on that track?

No, but her name's on the AFM contract for "Back Home" '63, and to me the intro (as heard on the Made In California box set) sounds 12-stringish.
EDIT: unless you mean the Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me" track? Yeah, she apparently does take credit for that, as Wikipedia credits her with that intro.


I always thought the intro to the 63 "Back Home" sounded like a zither of some kind, or a similar instrument. A zither with doubled melody strings, not single strings.

Click on the link for a comparison with the same tremolo-picking technique used: https://youtu.be/Md9hJrkYMhs?t=6
And here's Back Home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMTmJYRdC-U
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 06:50:02 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: November 26, 2019, 07:47:44 PM »

I can hear a sort of acoustic guitar tone in the "Back Home" intro - like, the sound of the actual sound-hole.
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« Reply #94 on: November 26, 2019, 10:37:05 PM »

I can hear a sort of acoustic guitar tone in the "Back Home" intro - like, the sound of the actual sound-hole.

The zither has a sound hole too  Grin
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« Reply #95 on: November 26, 2019, 10:40:43 PM »

What bothered me about the intro to Back Home was the attack, the way the strings were picked or struck on whatever instrument we're hearing. It didn't sound like a standard pick or plectrum.

So I made this video, no budget or production value, and it's done on an unplugged 12-string electric since I don't have an acoustic handy, showing what I imagined it *could* have been. No room reverb either.

Is it how that intro was done? Probably not. But take a look and give a listen, and see what you think. It could have been done similar to this...maybe... Grin

https://youtu.be/lvAz4Kfzdm0
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« Reply #96 on: November 27, 2019, 07:46:45 AM »

I can hear a sort of acoustic guitar tone in the "Back Home" intro - like, the sound of the actual sound-hole.

The zither has a sound hole too  Grin

True, but on the intro of "Back Home", I hear what sounds more like a larger-body, wooden acoustic guitar sound-hole reverberation than the what the slimmer-body zither is capable of producing.
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« Reply #97 on: November 27, 2019, 07:49:21 AM »

What bothered me about the intro to Back Home was the attack, the way the strings were picked or struck on whatever instrument we're hearing. It didn't sound like a standard pick or plectrum.

So I made this video, no budget or production value, and it's done on an unplugged 12-string electric since I don't have an acoustic handy, showing what I imagined it *could* have been. No room reverb either.

Is it how that intro was done? Probably not. But take a look and give a listen, and see what you think. It could have been done similar to this...maybe... Grin

https://youtu.be/lvAz4Kfzdm0

THAT sounds closer to the "Back Home" intro, to me, than what a zither would. I don't think it was necessarily struck with a pencil on "Back Home", but I now think it was Carol's acoustic 12-string, perhaps either tapped with fingers or struck with some kind of mallet...
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« Reply #98 on: November 27, 2019, 08:40:56 AM »

I can hear a sort of acoustic guitar tone in the "Back Home" intro - like, the sound of the actual sound-hole.

I can hear why you'd say that. Gabor Szabo's tone was similar- he played an acoustic with a pickup. My fist impression was that it was a 12 string with a pickup playing the whole part on the high E string.
My jury is still out.

Baby Don't Go has a similar (tho, not as precisely played) guitar part at the pre-chorus ("I can't stay...").

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« Reply #99 on: November 27, 2019, 09:34:48 AM »

Back Home sounds to me like fast strumming on an acoustic 12-string, no special technique. I don't think it's only on the high e string though. I get a more similar sound on my 6-string acoustic with the top two strings.
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