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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Joshilyn Hoisington on October 19, 2019, 10:46:24 AM



Title: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on October 19, 2019, 10:46:24 AM
EDIT:

I've done a slapdash preview episode to at least give you a slight idea what I'm on about.  It's up now!

https://youtu.be/TPJqtfJ-MwU (https://youtu.be/TPJqtfJ-MwU)

END EDIT

NEW EDIT:

New video up--not a true episode, but something to keep the momentum going!

End NEW EDIT

Hello friends,

I was just reflecting the other day on how it was almost exactly 20 years ago now that I got involved in the Beach Boys community online.  A short time compared to some others, but still kind of strange to consider!

Anyway, much of my focus as a Beach Boys fan has been enjoying and figuring out the way Brian, and the others to be sure, put together the arrangements for their tracks.  Discussions around such topics have always been my favorite here and elsewhere, and always sure to bring me out of a fallow time of posting.  Some of you may remember the fairly ambitious attempts I have made to present information about the arrangement and recording of tracks over the years.

A new idea has been troubling me lately and I feel like it is something I want to do, but if I do it I want it to be seriously undertaken, and professionally presented, so as to really make it a valuable endeavor.

What I'm interested in doing is a video series, perhaps limited, or perhaps ongoing, when each video delves into a fairly specific aspect of a Beach Boys track arrangement.  It would be a sort of documentary style investigation and partly a class on orchestration.

As some of you may know, I play most instruments pretty well, so I envision each episode being pretty heavy on actual demonstration.

So for instance, let's say an episode is "The woodwind section of God Only Knows".  It would involve some talking heads discussing the track generally, and then maybe some discussion about the particular lineup of instruments.  Then a brief, breezy explanation of woodwind orchestration and maybe some comparison to other pop woodwinds and even classical woodwind section arranging.

Then it would culminate in me demonstrating the individual lines and then the woodwind group playing selections from GOK together.


For another episode, let's say, it could be "The synthesizers of Beach Boys '85", where I would seek out access to the keyboards used on that album and demonstrate them.


There are lots of possibilities.  The point of this post is to gauge interest.  I'm sure most of you would enjoy watching such a thing--but the more important question is whether people would be willing to help spread the word, perhaps support a venture on something like Patreon, or feel like they have a unique contribution to add as a guest on the show.  I would also welcome suggestions and ideas for episodes, or suggestions on how to drum up interest.


Thanks.  Feel free to respond or PM if you have thoughts.  Even if it is to tell me I'm dumb!





Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: NateRuvin on October 19, 2019, 11:03:38 AM
I love that idea so much and would certainly  tune in.


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: JK on October 19, 2019, 01:09:41 PM
Hello aeijtzsche,

I second what Nate said. I'm a devotee of "classical" orchestral music, so any Smiley topic that ventures into the area of BB instrumentation is about as good as it gets for me. It's the kind of topic that makes this forum unmissable.

I would really appreciate this proposed venture of yours. I could promote it at the Hoffman Boards and elsewhere and maybe contribute ideas.

So yes, green light from me too. ;)


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: STE on October 19, 2019, 02:26:03 PM

I would absolutely watch every minute of it




Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: RONDEMON on October 19, 2019, 06:20:42 PM
100% on board and think others would be super interested, too.


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: c-man on October 20, 2019, 08:25:53 AM
You KNOW I'm on board! :)


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: leoleoleoleo on October 21, 2019, 02:18:12 AM
I would definitely watch this!


Title: Re: I want to start a
Post by: UEF on October 21, 2019, 03:01:37 AM
yes please


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: wjcrerar on October 21, 2019, 05:39:48 AM
.


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on October 21, 2019, 10:38:53 AM
Would you rather have shorter, hyper-focused videos, or longer, more general videos?

For example, which seems more appealing:

The woodwinds of Summer Days!

or

The woodwind and brass section in the intro to California Girls


Another example:

How the Beach Boys used bass string instruments

or

Ray Pohlman's bass on Pet Sounds



Additionally--please suggest topics.


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: JK on October 21, 2019, 10:53:54 AM
Would you rather have shorter, hyper-focused videos, or longer, more general videos?

Additionally--please suggest topics.

I rather like the idea of a broader canvas. Not that I'd complain if the topics were more focused...

A topic you might consider is Brian's use of tuned percussion, maybe just in the sixties, or maybe up to and including SMiLE.

     


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on October 21, 2019, 10:57:24 AM
To get the ball rolling, I'll share a short clip that I put together this morning.  It had been a while since I'd played my clarinets, so I got one out this morning to see if I could still play.

I recorded some of the clarinet quartet sections from IJWMFTT.  The video series promises to dissect these moments much more fully and strip everything back to its individual pieces.  I will not be trying to recreate or cover -- it will be much more piecemeal and specific; but in a way it will be like creating my own version of the multi tracks I have wanted to hear for so long.


(I am not currently living with my bass clarinet, so there is some manipulation to the bottom voice but it doesn't sound so bad.)

https://soundcloud.com/joshilyn-hoisington/ijwmftt-clarinet-early-attempts (https://soundcloud.com/joshilyn-hoisington/ijwmftt-clarinet-early-attempts)


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: JK on October 21, 2019, 12:18:59 PM
To get the ball rolling, I'll share a short clip that I put together this morning.  It had been a while since I'd played my clarinets, so I got one out this morning to see if I could still play.

I recorded some of the clarinet quartet sections from IJWMFTT.  The video series promises to dissect these moments much more fully and strip everything back to its individual pieces.  I will not be trying to recreate or cover -- it will be much more piecemeal and specific; but in a way it will be like creating my own version of the multi tracks I have wanted to hear for so long.

(I am not currently living with my bass clarinet, so there is some manipulation to the bottom voice but it doesn't sound so bad.)

https://soundcloud.com/joshilyn-hoisington/ijwmftt-clarinet-early-attempts (https://soundcloud.com/joshilyn-hoisington/ijwmftt-clarinet-early-attempts)

Sounds great to me, JH, top and bottom (isn't that what they call the chalumeau?).

I hope you and your bass clarinet are reunited soon!

(And I hope someone else chimes in now.)

Looking forward to more.


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: rab2591 on October 21, 2019, 03:11:44 PM
Quote
For another episode, let's say, it could be "The synthesizers of Beach Boys '85", where I would seek out access to the keyboards used on that album and demonstrate them.

As someone who loves that album and the sound of the synthesizers used on it, I fully fully support this endeavor. And I would totally watch/listen to other videos you make.

Will you be releasing these on YouTube? Or perhaps a podcast medium?


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: Beckgtr09 on October 22, 2019, 08:25:03 AM
I'm all for it and will gladly support the project.


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 08, 2019, 11:35:36 AM
Hello again!!

So this is going to go ahead.  I am writing some episodes now and investigating how best to make this the best "product" it can be.

As such, I'm asking for help and input as I get things up and running.

First, I have started a Patreon page that I hope will eventually bring in some monetary help.  Would you mind having a look?  Not to pledge (although, gee if you want to, that would be amazing...) but to tell me if it seems like I'm describing the project well, and in a way that coould drum up support.

https://www.patreon.com/user?u=26715698 (https://www.patreon.com/user?u=26715698)


Second, what is your opinion:

I'm thinking of calling the series "I'm Grass and You're a Power Mower".  Too esoteric or just esoteric enough?


Third:

I will do a couple of taster mini-episodes to show people the basic idea, but the first major, proper, official episode I have planned is about guitars, focusing on how the Beach Boys went from a Strat and Jaguar surf band, banging power chords, to a style of music where guitars are used in a very unique way.  The centerpiece of the episode will be about Wouldn't It Be Nice (and that whole controversy, as it were) but will also touch on all of Pet Sounds, and some of the more innovative uses of guitar on Today, SD&SN, and Smile.  I will demonstrate the parts on a variety of guitars.  Sound cool?


Fourth:

What would you like to see?  What moments on Beach Boys records (or any records coming out of the LA/Wrecking Crew milieu) would you like to see dissected musically?


Thanks!  Really appreciate any kind of feedback and I hope to create a really cool show that people like.


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: c-man on November 08, 2019, 12:30:04 PM
The guitars on "Let Him Run Wild"...


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 08, 2019, 01:00:15 PM
The guitars on "Let Him Run Wild"...

I may touch on those in my first blockbuster video!  LHRW might get its own very special episode, too, since it's such a landmark.


Title: Re: I want to start a \
Post by: JK on November 08, 2019, 02:10:54 PM
Hello aeijtzsche.

First: the description on the Patreon page looks great to me. Maybe the last sentence should be a little more hard-hitting, perhaps something like this:

Access to these instruments costs money, but if supporting me enables you to learn in detail about their place in your favorite productions, it will be money well spent!   

Just a thought...

Second: wow, that's some title! It's certainly eye-catching (and very clickable in a signature). So yes--go for it!

Third: sounds very cool!

Fourth: I still think tuned percussion in BW '60s productions (or just PS) would be fascinating. But c-man's choice suits me fine.  ;)


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 09, 2019, 12:34:17 PM
I've put together a low-production value preview video to get the ball rolling and give people at least something to watch while I organize to do the first episode properly.  I hope you enjoy it.

https://youtu.be/TPJqtfJ-MwU (https://youtu.be/TPJqtfJ-MwU)


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: JK on November 09, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
I've put together a low-production value preview video to get the ball rolling and give people at least something to watch while I organize to do the first episode properly.  I hope you enjoy it.

https://youtu.be/TPJqtfJ-MwU (https://youtu.be/TPJqtfJ-MwU)

Cool video--and a great promise of things to come! I'll post it at my "hobby" board and at Hoffman. ;)


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 09, 2019, 02:13:29 PM
Thanks!

And I also think that tuned percussion (and exotic percussion in general) is a great idea for a show.  No lack of interesting uses of Marimba, Vibes, Xylophone, Glock, etc. 


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 09, 2019, 09:59:17 PM
Thanks!

And I also think that tuned percussion (and exotic percussion in general) is a great idea for a show.  No lack of interesting uses of Marimba, Vibes, Xylophone, Glock, etc. 

Not to mention temple blocks...which may not technically fall in the category of tuned percussion, however I think the argument can be made that in Brian's case, they do - along with the plastic orange juice cups - 'cause of they way he uses them (two tones, or more, in the case of "GOK").


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: JK on November 10, 2019, 12:19:28 AM
Thanks!

And I also think that tuned percussion (and exotic percussion in general) is a great idea for a show.  No lack of interesting uses of Marimba, Vibes, Xylophone, Glock, etc. 

Not to mention temple blocks...which may not technically fall in the category of tuned percussion, however I think the argument can be made that in Brian's case, they do - along with the plastic orange juice cups - 'cause of they way he uses them (two tones, or more, in the case of "GOK").

It was the temple blocks in "IJWMFTT" that gave me the idea! I still swear the second note in that sequence is two played simultaneously...


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 10, 2019, 06:27:48 AM
.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: JK on November 10, 2019, 07:27:31 AM
I've put together a low-production value preview video to get the ball rolling and give people at least something to watch while I organize to do the first episode properly.  I hope you enjoy it.

https://youtu.be/TPJqtfJ-MwU (https://youtu.be/TPJqtfJ-MwU)

Took another look this morning. I like your relaxed yet purposeful manner. The informal setting fits it perfectly. Of course you may have other plans for the series proper but this has a great ambience. What a staggering array of instruments you play!  :o


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: UEF on November 10, 2019, 12:33:37 PM
Love it, I like how there's a bit on each instrument



Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 10, 2019, 06:15:49 PM
Thanks!

And I also think that tuned percussion (and exotic percussion in general) is a great idea for a show.  No lack of interesting uses of Marimba, Vibes, Xylophone, Glock, etc. 

Not to mention temple blocks...which may not technically fall in the category of tuned percussion, however I think the argument can be made that in Brian's case, they do - along with the plastic orange juice cups - 'cause of they way he uses them (two tones, or more, in the case of "GOK").

It was the temple blocks in "IJWMFTT" that gave me the idea! I still swear the second note in that sequence is two played simultaneously...


OK, so let's talk "found percussion" since it's been brought up.

When we talk about orange juice containers on GOK, are we talking about cartons?  Believe it or not, I have researched how orange juice was sold over the decades, and it seems to me that commercially available potables were not sold in plastic containers before the early 70s.  Does this jibe with people's memories?

Along those lines, would the Sparklett's jug for Caroline No have indeed been glass?

Folks, this is what keeps me up nights.  And with your contributions, I might be able to track down some period appropriate orange juice containers, sparkletts jugs, and coke cans to use on an episode!!!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 10, 2019, 06:16:41 PM
Really looking forward to these! For an episode idea, I'd love something breaking down the Time to Get Alone arrangement. Probably one of Brian's most unique productions in the way the instrumentation constantly switches up in each section via a mountain of different overdubs.

Yes, it would be cool to show how the different keyboards play off each other, especially.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: JK on November 11, 2019, 02:00:35 AM
OK, so let's talk "found percussion" since it's been brought up.

When we talk about orange juice containers on GOK, are we talking about cartons?  Believe it or not, I have researched how orange juice was sold over the decades, and it seems to me that commercially available potables were not sold in plastic containers before the early 70s.  Does this jibe with people's memories?

Along those lines, would the Sparklett's jug for Caroline No have indeed been glass?

Folks, this is what keeps me up nights.  And with your contributions, I might be able to track down some period appropriate orange juice containers, sparkletts jugs, and coke cans to use on an episode!!!

I can think of worse ways of spending the wee wee hours. :P

Maybe my spies have screwed up this time but it seems the plastic water bottle was patented in 1973:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_Wyeth_(inventor) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_Wyeth_(inventor))

Assuming Sparkletts bottles also held soda water in the mid '60s, and assuming that jug is synonymous with bottle, I'd say the chances of Hal's jug being made of glass are pretty good.

I have yet to find a water jug (at eBay or whatever) with a date any more specific than "1960s"...


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 11, 2019, 07:09:58 AM
.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 11, 2019, 07:20:40 AM
Thanks!

And I also think that tuned percussion (and exotic percussion in general) is a great idea for a show.  No lack of interesting uses of Marimba, Vibes, Xylophone, Glock, etc.  

Not to mention temple blocks...which may not technically fall in the category of tuned percussion, however I think the argument can be made that in Brian's case, they do - along with the plastic orange juice cups - 'cause of they way he uses them (two tones, or more, in the case of "GOK").

It was the temple blocks in "IJWMFTT" that gave me the idea! I still swear the second note in that sequence is two played simultaneously...


OK, so let's talk "found percussion" since it's been brought up.

When we talk about orange juice containers on GOK, are we talking about cartons?  Believe it or not, I have researched how orange juice was sold over the decades, and it seems to me that commercially available potables were not sold in plastic containers before the early 70s.  Does this jibe with people's memories?

Along those lines, would the Sparklett's jug for Caroline No have indeed been glass?

Folks, this is what keeps me up nights.  And with your contributions, I might be able to track down some period appropriate orange juice containers, sparkletts jugs, and coke cans to use on an episode!!!


More found percussion if that's gonna be a topic: The clinking glasses in the Cabin Essence tag (Brian calls them the "little bell goodies"), obligatory celery, real bamboo and metallic wind chimes on Smiley's Wind Chimes. The use of a brake drum to get an anvil-like sound occasionally shows up on Smile material too, namely Fire, the H&V chorus, one of the H&V chants, and Vegetables. Plus my favourite - Carl briefly using some grass shears (!) in the Vegetables fade!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: SBonilla on November 11, 2019, 08:02:48 AM
Thanks!

And I also think that tuned percussion (and exotic percussion in general) is a great idea for a show.  No lack of interesting uses of Marimba, Vibes, Xylophone, Glock, etc.  

Not to mention temple blocks...which may not technically fall in the category of tuned percussion, however I think the argument can be made that in Brian's case, they do - along with the plastic orange juice cups - 'cause of they way he uses them (two tones, or more, in the case of "GOK").

It was the temple blocks in "IJWMFTT" that gave me the idea! I still swear the second note in that sequence is two played simultaneously...


OK, so let's talk "found percussion" since it's been brought up.

When we talk about orange juice containers on GOK, are we talking about cartons?  Believe it or not, I have researched how orange juice was sold over the decades, and it seems to me that commercially available potables were not sold in plastic containers before the early 70s.  Does this jibe with people's memories?

Along those lines, would the Sparklett's jug for Caroline No have indeed been glass?

Folks, this is what keeps me up nights.  And with your contributions, I might be able to track down some period appropriate orange juice containers, sparkletts jugs, and coke cans to use on an episode!!!


More found percussion if that's gonna be a topic: The clinking glasses in the Cabin Essence tag (Brian calls them the "little bell goodies"), obligatory celery, real bamboo and metallic wind chimes on Smiley's Wind Chimes. The use of a brake drum to get an anvil-like sound occasionally shows up on Smile material too, namely Fire, the H&V chorus, one of the H&V chants, and Vegetables. Plus my favourite - Carl briefly using some grass shears (!) in the Vegetables fade!


Frankie Capp's keys on Surf's Up.
Bicycle bell on You Still Believe In Be.
Hal's ashtrays on Barbara Ann. 

Hope these weren't previously mentioned...


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 11, 2019, 08:20:00 AM
Thanks!

And I also think that tuned percussion (and exotic percussion in general) is a great idea for a show.  No lack of interesting uses of Marimba, Vibes, Xylophone, Glock, etc. 

Not to mention temple blocks...which may not technically fall in the category of tuned percussion, however I think the argument can be made that in Brian's case, they do - along with the plastic orange juice cups - 'cause of they way he uses them (two tones, or more, in the case of "GOK").

It was the temple blocks in "IJWMFTT" that gave me the idea! I still swear the second note in that sequence is two played simultaneously...


OK, so let's talk "found percussion" since it's been brought up.

When we talk about orange juice containers on GOK, are we talking about cartons?  Believe it or not, I have researched how orange juice was sold over the decades, and it seems to me that commercially available potables were not sold in plastic containers before the early 70s.  Does this jibe with people's memories?

Along those lines, would the Sparklett's jug for Caroline No have indeed been glass?

Folks, this is what keeps me up nights.  And with your contributions, I might be able to track down some period appropriate orange juice containers, sparkletts jugs, and coke cans to use on an episode!!!


Interesting questions!  There's an NPR interview with Hal - it may still be available in their archive - where he talks about the plastic orange juice cups, and IIRC, he said they came from a vending machine. He cut them at different lengths to get the desired pitches (and obviously allowed Jim Gordon to play them on "GOK", since he was occupied with the sleighbells and drum kit on that session). So maybe you could only get cartons in the store at the time, but if  you bought them from  a machine, they came in plastic?

Regarding Sparkletts, Dennis once described (to Timothy White in Crawdaddy, IIRC) carrying a glass Sparkletts jug in the backyard while stoned, and dropping it on his foot. He cut the tendon in his foot, requiring stiches, after which his toes only moved in tandem (Dennis should not have been allowed around glass while drunk/stoned, especially after slicing his forearm up good in '71 - the accident that resulted in a temporary inability to play the drums!). Presumably, this backyard accident was in the mid-'70s, and the Sparkletts jug was glass. Plus, Brian played a Sparkletts jug with a mallet for the percussion on "Take A Load Off Your Feet" a few years earlier, and that was said to be glass (the 5-gallon variety, to be exact). Therefore, I would lean toward the Sparkletts sound on "Caroline, No" emanating from a glass jug, too!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 11, 2019, 08:59:00 AM
I'm still trying to imagine what these orange juice things were.  It seems to me, from the limited info I can dig up, that although carbonated beverages were not bottled in plastic until the 70s, flat beverages were starting to be bottled around 67?  It's possible that it was happening earlier. 

Otherwise, a vending machine surely would have sold cardboard cartons or glass bottles of juice?

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0060/5222/products/vintage_orange_juice_carton_packaging.jpg)

(https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/162963148836_/1960%E2%80%99s-Vintage-Tropicana-Orange-Juice-Glass-Jar-32.jpg)

Is it possible Hal (may his soul be at rest) was thinking about the concentrate cans?

(https://1372d34c156f12457517-c8b49206fc42ea00d5fd50b8ec61d670.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/075450150209_A1L1_LabelInsight_default_large.png)

You could cut those down a bit and I bet it would change the pitch...slightly?


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 11, 2019, 10:01:38 AM
Well, in the short but thick "Making Of Pet Sounds" booklet included in the Capitol box set, Hal gets pretty specific: he talks about the orange-juice bottle percussion: "There were the 'famous' orange bottles. We used to drink orange juice out of the vending machines. I took three of these small six or eight ounce plastic orange drink bottles, and I cut them down to three different sizes in length. And I taped 'em together, and I used a little vibraphone mallet. Brian loved that kind of stuff. Just different sounds."


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 11, 2019, 10:19:42 AM
Well, in the short but thick "Making Of Pet Sounds" booklet included in the Capitol box set, Hal gets pretty specific: he talks about the orange-juice bottle percussion: "There were the 'famous' orange bottles. We used to drink orange juice out of the vending machines. I took three of these small six or eight ounce plastic orange drink bottles, and I cut them down to three different sizes in length. And I taped 'em together, and I used a little vibraphone mallet. Brian loved that kind of stuff. Just different sounds."

So if potables were't commercially available in plastic bottles by early '66, we may have to rethink things.  Interesting.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Don Malcolm on November 11, 2019, 04:55:44 PM
Fascinating and dare I say essential stuff, everyone here should chip in to support this series. I remember plastic orange juice bottles in vending machines as a kid in the early-mid 60s--precisely because you couldn't get them any other way at the time. I don't recall cardboard in vending machines, however, probably because the process of ejecting them from the vending machine could have violent enough to tear even coated cardboard.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned already...but I hope that a good amount of attention will be paid to combining instrumental sounds (which I think will be all over the "unique guitar sound"  sections). A chronological approach (which I think is what's being intimated...) for this would be fascinating to listen to in sequence, and it might be interesting to try a "what would this combination sound like if it were used in another context"...to show how Brian found sounds that fit the mood of very specific songs and why they seem not to get repeated on subsequent songs very often.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 11, 2019, 08:03:46 PM
I remember plastic orange juice bottles in vending machines as a kid in the early-mid 60s--precisely because you couldn't get them any other way at the time. I don't recall cardboard in vending machines, however, probably because the process of ejecting them from the vending machine could have violent enough to tear even coated cardboard.


Do you remember what they were like?  I'm just curious, beside the musicological point, what plastic bottles for drinks were like before High Density #2 plastic became feasible.  I'd imagine that orange juice presented a similar issue to soda, but instead of because of pressure, because of acid? 


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 12, 2019, 07:15:15 AM
.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: UEF on November 12, 2019, 08:34:23 AM
If there is an orange juice tapping sound, is it what I can hear in the background of this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCq3npjR9Mg&t=2m5s


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 12, 2019, 08:51:47 AM
If there is an orange juice tapping sound, is it what I can hear in the background of this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCq3npjR9Mg&t=2m5s

That is the theory, yeah.  I'm not convinced, though.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: UEF on November 12, 2019, 09:43:57 AM
If there is an orange juice tapping sound, is it what I can hear in the background of this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCq3npjR9Mg&t=2m5s

That is the theory, yeah.  I'm not convinced, though.

Indeed. That sounds wooden to me. Though I know almost nothing about percussion!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 12, 2019, 10:36:52 AM
I remember plastic orange juice bottles in vending machines as a kid in the early-mid 60s--precisely because you couldn't get them any other way at the time. I don't recall cardboard in vending machines, however, probably because the process of ejecting them from the vending machine could have violent enough to tear even coated cardboard.


Do you remember what they were like?  I'm just curious, beside the musicological point, what plastic bottles for drinks were like before High Density #2 plastic became feasible.  I'd imagine that orange juice presented a similar issue to soda, but instead of because of pressure, because of acid? 

Just an FYI - These topics have been discussed here previously and if there may be some info to be found to add to the discussion, let me know and I'll post the links. If anyone cares. Because I remember researching and writing about the juice/milk/water containers 8-9 years ago and discussing it with people here.

Just a few bits from my research and memory: There were cardboard milk cartons in vending machines, I believe since the 1950's or at least early 60's. One of the reasons why is that local and regional dairy farms and suppliers who supplied the stock to fill these machines would produce usually several flavors of milk, along with fruit drinks like orange, grape, etc. These would be the cartons or bottles you'd get in the machines.

So keep that in mind: Orange *drink* versus orange juice. It may help the research for those doing it to narrow the parameters. Orange drink was different than orange juice obviously, and could be packaged differently. Confusingly Hal mentions "orange juice" and "orange drink" in the same comment, but they're not the same. However dairies would sell orange drink alongside their milk flavors in these machines during this time.

From a previous discussion, I only remember getting plastic juice/drink bottles as a kid in the form of "Little Hug" barrel-shaped plastic bottles full of fruit-flavored drink. These had a foil cap you'd peel off. What I found out was the "Little Hug" drinks came out shortly before I was born, and coincidentally around the same time they perfected plastic bottles enough to hold carbonated sodas and other acidic liquids which led to the 2-liter soda bottle. These - as far as I know - were not available in the 1960's though. Coke did their first plastic 2-liters in 1973 I believe, just like the Little Hug bottles.

So what were the musicians drinking out of those vending machines in 1966? I'm going out on a limb and suggesting if it were dairy sourced, like milk or these orange/grape/etc "drinks", they were in cartons or less frequently by 1966 small glass bottles.

Re: Sparkletts water bottles: These were glass until the 70's or even the 80's depending on location. We were still getting glass spring water bottles until 1986 or so at my house. Yet it still sounds for all the world to my ears on Caroline No like a percussion mallet hitting a plastic jug. Who knows.

Any more questions about this, please keep 'em coming, because my ears hear what the history of the drink packaging industry and vending machine technology doesn't seem to back up. I hear pretty much what Hal described, namely the sound of plastic being struck with a mallet. Yet, plastic disposable drink containers and bottles didn't seem to be all that prevalent if they existed at all in 1966. It was mostly glass or cardboard stocked in those vending machines.

"PLASTICS!!!" - The Graduate, 1967.



Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: UEF on November 12, 2019, 10:40:09 AM
Is the Caroline, No sound the one right at the beginning of the track?


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 12, 2019, 10:44:20 AM
Question for Craig on the TTGA topic (not that anyone's still talking about it but...I'm curious): is that one of the ones you got to hear the tracking session for? I'd assumed the basic track was Brian on the muted piano, due to it being the only consistent instrument through the whole song and also featuring in the 'untitled Redwood' early takes, but I wasn't sure if that carried over to the master since it's played with a different pattern and I hadn't seen a mention of it elsewhere.

I'm also confused about the roles of the two bass players. One of those alternate takes has someone strumming quarter notes on what sounds like a 6-string - could that have been put down first on the master by either Ray or Ron and then replaced by the other with the standard line during overdubs?

Since I wrote this back in 2005 before you came on board, you may have missed it, but thought this analysis I did of Time To Get Alone may be of interest. Maybe not as specific on the bass parts, but perhaps some other elements that are of interest are pointed out. And maybe it will inspire more of the in-depth digging that is being brought up in this thread overall:

This links directly to the repost of the original piece:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22224.msg526277.html#msg526277 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22224.msg526277.html#msg526277)

I wrote this piece in early 2005 about the song. This is the piece exactly as I had it saved in my files. Chalk up any errors or overlooks to youthful exuberance. I hope you find something of interest in it about a truly great song, Time To Get Alone. From March 2005:


----------



I’d recommend listening to the song itself while reading this information, if possible, so the details pointed out in each section will be more clearly heard. Each section analyzed within the song is marked with the exact time.

Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions!

Craig



The recent discussion about Brian’s post-Smile musical activity, combined with a few mentions of the song Time To Get Alone, was the inspiration for doing something like this. Time To Get Alone has always sounded amazing to me, even comforting in a way, almost sounding like it came from a very inspired place in relation to what was surrounding it at the time of both its creation and its eventual release as a Beach Boys track. The song has characteristics of Brian’s best production work from Pet Sounds and Smile, and would probably have fit perfectly on either one of those projects. However, the song’s history is somewhat mired in controversy, and the role it played during a sad chapter of the Beach Boys’ saga. The song is mostly overlooked as an album track, and I feel it deserves much more recognition than it has received.

In an attempt to answer a few musical questions, and maybe come closer to understanding why this track stands out as it does, I’ve tried to combine a traditional musical analysis with an analysis of the song’s production, including instrumentation, form, rhythm, and other components that created what I consider one of the greatest productions of Brian Wilson’s career. I have purposely not analyzed the lyrical content of the song, except where certain lyrics are closely connected to specific musical concepts.

First Impressions, First Verse (0:00-0:23): Brian has said “All my life I have been fascinated with waltzes.” The most immediate characteristic sound from the opening bars is the ¾ waltz time. That ¾ meter in pop music immediately stands out among the vast majority of songs written in 4/4 time. It instantly sets a mood, establishes a specific groove and feel, and sets certain expectations for the listener. The chord progression is bright and positive, familiar enough to match the warm feeling of the opening lyrics.

Harmonically, the chord progression of the first verse is fairly standard: In the key of D major, the chords are Dmajor (I) - Gmajor(IV) - Eminor(ii) - A7(V7), a very familiar and somewhat ordinary I-IV-ii-V vamp. However, when set in a waltz feel, holding the chords for two measures each, it makes the progression sound anything but ordinary.

Instrumentally, the first verse features some fantastic production ideas. The bass line covers primarily the root notes of the harmonic progression, but is made sonically interesting by the combination of instruments playing the line. There is an electric bass part, played with a pick, that sounds both warm and percussive; then there is a piano part doubling each note played by the electric bass. This piano’s doubling of the electric bass offers both the initial sharper attack on each note, and the more colorful decay of the note after that attack. When combined, the two create almost a new instrument; that combination of sonic textures in the bass is something Brian experimented with on Pet Sounds, and is a technique which has been used extensively in popular music. This bass sound is constant throughout the song.

Vocally, the beautiful melody is double-tracked, with no harmonies or embellishments, and sung in a very friendly and heartfelt tone. This lead vocal is very dry, with no obvious external effects like reverb or delay. The double-tracking here creates a very full sound, and the lack of effects makes the warm delivery of the lyrics seem that much more personal.

The most mind-blowing sound on the track is introduced immediately. What Brian seems to have done is combine four of his most familiar keyboard- and piano-based sounds into a repeating rhythmic and harmonic hook, a part which almost sounds like a loop created with modern digital editing software. Listen closely to the piano part(s): there are four distinct and separate keyboard instruments playing each chord. To my ears, it sounds like the order of instruments is: PIANO, TACK PIANO, HARPSICHORD, and either ACCORDIAN or HARMONIUM. If we’re counting the waltz time as 1-2-3, 1-2-3, the keyboard instruments are assigned one chord each per two-bar harmonic cycle, as follows: 1(bass)-2(piano)-3(tack piano), 1(bass)-2(harpsichord)-3(accordian). The rhythmic and sonic effect created by this arrangement of instruments is incredible, and has to be heard to be fully appreciated. This is a groundbreaking moment of this song’s production which creates an incredible sonic hook, and is a part which a lesser producer or arranger would have assigned to perhaps one keyboard instrument rather than four.

Rhythmically, the drums in the verse are playing simple quarter notes on the hi-hat and hitting the snare on beat 2. The bass and piano double is hitting strong on beat 1, and on the “and” (eighth note) of beat three. That bass pattern, combined with the drums accenting beat 2, and the keyboard “loop” accenting beats 2 and 3, creates a unique rolling feel with no single instrument taking the lead as the rhythmic foundation of the arrangement; rather, each part assumes a vital role in the overall groove. I don’t really hear a kick drum, and it wouldn’t even be necessary with the percussive attack of the electric bass and piano playing their syncopated parts in sequence with the drums. Again, a lesser musical mind may have assigned a standard waltz feel to a full drum kit, and filled in the rest with a traditional waltz feel. Brian instead makes the whole band part of the rhythmic hook, with every instrument playing an essential and multi-faceted role.

The First Chorus (0:23-0:46): The harmonic foundation of the chorus is best analyzed in two parts. The initial measures are built on a descending bass line which could be called a line cliché, still in D major. The harmonic rhythm is altered for this chorus, featuring one chord per bar rather than the two-bar duration of the verse. The chords are: D Major - D/C# - D/B - D/A. This descending line emphasizes how the different bass notes work under the constant D major triad, and also creates yet another strong hook for the chorus, a bass hook which works perfectly with the higher-range melody. The interesting twist is the second part of this phrase (‘just be together, we’ll only be together’), where the chords are: G7 - Dminor7 - G7 - G7. It appears that Brian borrowed the characteristic v minor chord from the G Mixolydian mode, to give that phrase one of his trademark unexpected resolutions. He’s creating yet another hook, a harmonic hook, in the process. In the key of D major, the G chord acts as the IV, and does not have the flatted 7th (F natural) available, and obviously the Dminor7 chord is not diatonic to D major. By “borrowing” this modal progression and using the characteristic Mixolydian minor v chord, Brian adds tremendous interest to this chorus, and adds an unpredictable conclusion to the predictable “line cliché” bass motion.

Instrumentally, the keyboards which were limited to hitting one chord each in the verse are now opened up and split in the chorus. They are somewhat difficult to distinguish in the mix, but it sounds like the harpsichord has become the driving rhythmic and chordal force in the chorus, playing a steady, rolling eighth note pattern that sounds like it could be doubled by the tack piano. It sounds like the standard piano is now playing the chords on the quarter notes, and it also sounds like a fuzz guitar line could be buried in the mix, playing sustained root notes on beat one of each measure. As mentioned, the bass is playing the descending line in the same rhythm as the verse, and the drums have now added a snare beat to hit on both beats 2 and 3, creating more of a traditional waltz pattern. Combining all of these instruments creates a very rhythmically full sound for the chorus, and adds sonic drive and force to make the chorus stand out apart from the verse.

Vocally, the chorus is where the vocal tracks really explode. Both Brian and Carl are sharing the high lead, trading off at various points, and they are backed by at least three separate backing vocal parts. These parts are either doubled or sung in harmony, covering the entire low-to-high vocal range, and creating counter-melodies while introducing additional lyrics. The parts that stand out most are Mike’s double-tracked bass vocal, Brian’s falsetto lead splitting off into Carl’s then coming back in harmony, and a brilliant harmony line that outlines the D major chord in dotted-half notes, singing the wordless notes: A-D-F#-A, switching to G, and ending by singing what sounds like “baby it’s time” with those borrowed modal notes F-G-F-D. These vocal parts create a massive swirling choral-like sound which defines the chorus and creates yet another production hook.

Second Verse (0:46-1:08): All of the instruments return to playing their parts from the first verse, resuming that rolling feel with the multi-keyboard “loop” and the band once again filling their rhythmic roles. This time around, though, backing vocals are added to the double-tracked lead. These wordless backing vocals follow the harmonies brilliantly, with contrary motion between the bass and upper parts, and interesting phrasing that is anything but static. This creates interesting flowing background lines where others may have chosen to harmonize on each chord change.

Second Chorus (1:08-1:31): Same roles and parts as the first chorus, with the addition of a high vibraphone part, primarily playing one note on beat one of each bar. This seemingly minor addition cuts through the thick arrangement due to its metallic high pitch, and adds a “magical” chiming sound that helps build this second chorus and set it apart from the first.

The Bridge (1:31-1:56): The brilliant way in which Brian approaches this bridge can be found in the bass line. In his previous choruses, after the G7-Dminor7-G7 modal progression, the bass line walked up on the notes G, A,B…and either added a C# on a weak beat 8th note to lead to the tonic note “D”, or deceptively went from the ascending G,A,B to “D” instead of the expected strong resolution to “C”. Brian, instead of deceiving us again, finally resolves that ascending bass line, and the bridge begins on and is based in the key of C. The chords are more difficult to hear in this section, but it sounds like Brian is once again borrowing the Mixolydian modal motif from the chorus and using a v minor chord in the initial progression: Cmajor(I)- Gminor(v)- Cmajor(I) - Fmajor(IV) - Fmajor; then C - Gminor - C - F (I’m analyzing this key/mode as C Mixolydian, which offers the flatted seventh note Bb needed to form the G minor). Notice he also adds an extra measure and plays the first F major chord for two bars rather than one. The next phrase (‘Aren’t you glad we finally got away’) has these chords: Aminor7 - Dminor7 - Aminor7 - Dminor7 - Aminor7 - Aminor7-Dminor7 - Dmajor. These chords are part of the C major scale, and can be analyzed as such, but I’m almost hearing them as a minor progression, with A minor temporarily acting as the i chord and D minor as iv. Whatever the analysis, it changes the overall sound to a minor tonality which we’ve not heard previously, and builds tension in conjunction with the melody and other instruments. This temporary minor tonality is different enough to make this bridge section stand out, but not radical enough to confuse the listener. It’s very difficult to hear this in the mix, but the brilliant chord in this section is the implied final chord just before the last verse: it sounds like that D minor changes to D major, which returns us to the original major-key tonality for the verse in an unexpected way. Notice that the fixed-pitch instruments sounding the note “F natural”, especially the vocals, stop just before this last chord (1:54-1:55). That F natural note defines the D minor tonality, and changing or even suggesting the change of that note up a half step to F# leads us back to the defining note of the D major tonality. It’s difficult to hear and confirm, but it’s almost being suggested by what’s happening in the arrangement.

Instrumentally, the bridge is enhanced by the addition of strings and brass instruments, as well as what sounds like a muted piano or muted harpsichord, possibly revisiting a familiar Brian Wilson sonic trademark from previous albums. The other keyboard instruments from the verse and chorus have dropped out, all but the piano doubling the bass. The drums and bass are playing these new harmonies with the same basic rhythm patterns as before. The brass, which is primarily playing lower-register notes and static lines, starts off complimenting a sustained mid-range string note. The vibraphone is now playing a busier quarter-note arpeggio part in a lower register than it had played in the chorus. Then, after the massive “deep and wide” vocal line, the strings launch into a very cinematic-sounding and busy part, eventually building the part to an incredible crescendo which reaches into the upper range of the instruments, a string part dependant more on feel and effect than precise pitch. This is one of the most exciting and visual instrumental parts Brian ever created, as visual and powerful as his similar instrumental work on Smile, and matching perfectly the message of the lyrics: “aren’t you glad we finally got away?”. The sound of those strings reaching into the stratosphere perfectly captures the mood of wanting to get away, another example of Brian capturing the essence of a lyric within an instrumental part.

Vocally, the bridge begins with only the double-tracked lead in front of a more sparse instrumental backing. But the track literally explodes on the words “deep and wide”, done in harmony, pushed up very loud in the mix, and with a massive reverb added. That reverb could convince us that we are really “looking down through the valley so deep and wide”, and is a perfect example of using a studio effect like reverb to further enhance the visual aspect of a lyric. After this explosion of vocals, the wordless backing vocals re-appear, and help build the intensity of the bridge by adding some thick minor-seventh sounding harmonies to the gathering storm of the string part. As stated before, these minor-seventh flavored vocals drop out just before the last measure of the bridge.

Special Note: In the alternate versions of Time To Get Alone, including the version on the Hawthorne disc and the Redwood version, there is an instrumental section which precedes the bridge as released by the Beach Boys. Included in this section is a whistled melody, a low brass part that sounds like a “Salvation Army”-style line, and sleigh bells. This “lost” pre-bridge section also modulates to the key of C, and very brilliantly follows the same line cliché in the bass as the previous choruses had followed, in the new key. You can hear a very brief “jingle” of the sleigh bells from this lost section in the Beach Boys’ released version, right before the bridge enters at 1:31.

Third Verse (1:56-2:07): Actually, this verse is half the length of the previous two verses, with all of the instruments and vocal parts covering the same parts as they had done on verse 2, minus the vibes. It does sound as if this verse were mixed somewhat louder than the others, or perhaps some of the parts were brought up for this last verse to continue the level of intensity from the bridge to the last choruses.

Third Chorus and Fade-Out (2:07-end): The final chorus, with the important addition of a counter-melody from the strings which compliments the already busy vocal parts from earlier choruses. It also sounds like the backing vocals were pushed up a bit on the mix for this final chorus, or perhaps that is a sonic illusion caused by the addition of the strings making an already full sound even fuller. This final string part adds what I hear to be emotional warmth and another layer of meaning to the lyrics of the track, almost like the feeling some get when listening to a Sinatra track with similar-sounding strings. In other words, it creates the perfect mood to end the song, a mood once again expressed instrumentally by Brian Wilson.

I feel that Time To Get Alone is one of the most perfect productions heard on any Beach Boys record, or on most pop records from any artist. It can easily stand alongside the best work from Pet Sounds and Smile, and it in no way suggests a lesser quality of work and skills from Brian from a time where it has been said he deliberately under-produced certain records. On this song, every instrumental part is exactly where it should be, the tools he uses to build the song section-by-section are textbook examples of creating and maintaining interest throughout a song, from a musical perspective it is complex and advanced in its structure and composition, the vocal and instrumental performances on the record are flawless, the mix sounds rich and full, and it captures, near-perfectly, Brian Wilson’s ability as a producer and songwriter to convey and compliment the visual imagery of a lyric through instrumental music.

Analyzing this song was a fantastic opportunity to learn what made this song great, piece-by-piece and section-by-section. Many musicians are given assignments to similarly deconstruct and analyze works by the great composers such as Bach and Beethoven, with the end result of such exercises hopefully being a greater understanding of the techniques used to create such masterpieces, techniques which can then be applied to that musician’s own work. I feel just as strongly about the value of analyzing Time To Get Alone for any fans of Brian Wilson who are interested in studying his musical techniques. The fact that this song comes from a period in Brian’s history that is often overlooked or misunderstood is even more of an inspiration to look more closely at it from a different perspective, and perhaps recognize Time To Get Alone as the artistic triumph it is.

               



Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 12, 2019, 10:52:07 AM
Is the Caroline, No sound the one right at the beginning of the track?

Yes, it's the deep percussion hit treated with lots of tape echo which answers the three tambourine hits. To my ears, it still sounds like a mallet hitting plastic!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 12, 2019, 11:27:50 AM

...

Any more questions about this, please keep 'em coming, because my ears hear what the history of the drink packaging industry and vending machine technology doesn't seem to back up. I hear pretty much what Hal described, namely the sound of plastic being struck with a mallet. Yet, plastic disposable drink containers and bottles didn't seem to be all that prevalent if they existed at all in 1966. It was mostly glass or cardboard stocked in those vending machines.

"PLASTICS!!!" - The Graduate, 1967.



Thanks for chiming in.  After talking about these things for 20 years it's hard to remember what has been discussed and what hasn't!

I think it's good to question the "established wisdom" on these things.  Over the years, I think we have learned that so many legends arise for these studio tales that have basis in fact, but are misapplied.

This goes for the GOK percussion, the Sparklett's jug, and even the Coke cans on the PS instrumental.  I don't really hear coke cans anywhere on there!

Now, the question in sorting it out is:  If it sounds like a plastic bottle, maybe it's from something that DID come in plastic bottles at the time, and the orange beverage part is incorrect.  Or maybe Hal used orange bottles on some later production but the sound of GOK put him in mind of that and so he wrongly put two and two together.

I've never heard anybody get anywhere near that sound, though.  I'll be trying for some future video, though!

PS:  The sparklett's jug (or whatever it is) is alleged not to actually have tape regen on it at all!  Mark Linett posted at Gearslutz at some point that it's Hal playing in imitation of tape echo!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 12, 2019, 11:57:34 AM
.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Jay on November 12, 2019, 12:24:05 PM
It would be cool if you did videos on "Be With Me", "Mona Kana", and "Tune X" and talked about how they do or don't compare to Brian's style/approach.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 12, 2019, 03:00:30 PM
It would be cool if you did videos on "Be With Me", "Mona Kana", and "Tune X" and talked about how they do or don't compare to Brian's style/approach.

A Very Special Dennis Episode is a great idea.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 12, 2019, 03:01:47 PM
I've filmed another sort of filler program,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeP0dXHS14 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeP0dXHS14)

It's about figuring out what is playing on records, with a short example.

Be sure to like and subscribe so I don't have to bug you every time I post a video!





Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: JK on November 12, 2019, 11:36:15 PM
I've filmed another sort of filler program,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeP0dXHS14 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeP0dXHS14)

It's about figuring out what is playing on records, with a short example.

Be sure to like and subscribe so I don't have to bug you every time I post a video!

I'm so sorry, JH, but I left YouTube when Google + muscled in on the act. But I have your channel bookmarked (and in my signature at Hoffman).

Really looking forward to watching this. "IWFTD" is one of my top three BB tracks. Such a joyous, uplifting song!

[A few hours later]

So much for the complaint that there's nothing left to say about The Beach Boys!!! This topic--and this project of yours--would seem to refute that. ;)

I'd say these videos have a very broad appeal, from folks who just enjoy what their ears tell them to those who want to pick these wonderful sounds apart. And this one is a revelation!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 13, 2019, 09:28:09 AM
I've filmed another sort of filler program,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeP0dXHS14 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeP0dXHS14)

It's about figuring out what is playing on records, with a short example.

Be sure to like and subscribe so I don't have to bug you every time I post a video!





Great job!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 13, 2019, 11:29:39 AM
Here's another idea - the keyboards on "Help Me, Rhonda" (the single/Summer Days version)...

The track sheet includes notations for "elect piano" and "Hohner”, indicating two different electric keyboards were used, in addition to an acoustic piano. The most commonly used types of electric piano in those days were the Wurlitzer and two models of Hohner - the Pianet and the Cembalet. Since "elect piano" is designated as such, I'm guessing that would have been a Wurlitzer (and I do hear a "whirring" kind of keyboard sound in there, which to me is indicitive of the Wurly). But which model of Hohner do we think was employed? Electric piano really wasn't used much on Beach Boys recordings at the time, and in fact, this might be the earliest example. The tonal difference of the Cembalet and the Pianet (they were introduced by Hohner in that order, however they were both produced and sold into the '70s) may be slight, but possibly a finely-tuned ear could discern the identity used here? I'm not suggesting you buy or rent either or both, 'cause there are demo recordings out there on the 'net that may aid in the discernment, and I'm sure there are patches or plugins available for download/installation and playing of the actual parts!

The two electric keyboards were recorded together on one track, and the acoustic piano on another, so we have a bit of separation on the basic track recording, but since the two electrics are locked together on one track (with, I might add, the saxophones and Billy Strange's electric guitar), ID'ing the specific kinds might be a bit of a challenge.







Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 13, 2019, 06:25:40 PM
Quote
I'm not suggesting you buy or rent either or both, 'cause there are demo recordings out there on the 'net that may aid in the discernment, and I'm sure there are patches or plugins available for download/installation and playing of the actual parts!

I'd be all too happy to own all kinds of these keyboards, but ultimately the dream (and most realistic scenario) would be to find people willing to let me come in and play around on (and film) them.  I think there's a cool narrative I could tell about electric pianos.  I'm trying to think of what the first use of electric piano on a Beach Boys record would be?  But I could start there, and tell the story all the way through up to the DX7 years or whatever.

Here's another question that would be interesting to explore:  Who owned these instruments?  I'm sure the major studios all owned an acoustic piano or two, and an organ or two, but how many had the space/budget to own all kind of auxiliary stuff?  Did the Beach Boys buy various keyboards and pianos to have?  Certainly the session players couldn't be expected to deal with all that.  There were likely rental places: when did S.I.R. start up?

In any case...the paperwork is probably long gone, but it would be interesting to implement the "How" these keyboards got to be on a session.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 13, 2019, 07:04:44 PM
Brief reply before going back to answer some others.

Maybe it would be helpful to list the best available version of Rhonda so others can hear the electric piano examples being discussed? Just which release and track/disc has it where the EQ and mix allows a better way to hear it.

My experience which is still pretty modern up to the current day is that the *studios* would have this kind of gear available in-house. It's part of the selling points and marketing of the studios in general to have well-maintained, excellent-sounding, and above all working and available keyboards such as these available for clients. That has not changed since the golden years...for proof, just check any gear list advertised by a working studio and you'll see many vintage keyboards if they're a bigger budget studio. Same with guitars and amps.

Jan Berry's brothers got SIR up and renting/delivering by the later 60's, but in the case of Brian's productions and others in LA, a lot of the studios already had a stable of keyboards available. The engineers knew how they sounded, how to mic them best, etc. It was around '67 the way it seems when musicians - like Brian - would bring their own 'boards in because they could afford to do so.

I think a lot of bands who had a budget behind them would rather have used (or had been told to use) the studio's collection of keyboards and such, namely because touring and travel could make the road instruments pretty unreliable and even out of tune. Buzzes, loose connections, broken parts, etc. Again I believe the better option was to use what was on hand as it was better kept and maintained.

SIR doing what they did pretty much changed the game, I'd say. But still, some studios would still have certain pianos or organs that got reputations as being the best around. Like the legendary Rhodes used throughout the studios in the 70's which seems to have popped up on perhaps thousands of hit records.


Re: The Hohner Pianet, etc. It takes a very discerning ear to pick those out, if it's even possible short of actual info on which model was used. If it's buried in a mix, good luck. Portability was the big draw on those, like the Farfisa and Continental in the organ world. But they became more celebrated for their own quirky sounds versus trying to mimic a full theater organ or with the Cembalet/Pianet, a piano.

Main difference in the Pianet models was that one used suction cups to create the strike from the keys, and the other used a strip of adhesive tape. So instead of being struck like a piano, or plucked like a harpsichord, the pianet's keys would activate this suction which created the sound. There are some fanatics who know the Pianet inside and out who can tell, but good luck if it's buried.

The Cembalet has more of a plucking motion to activate the steel sound reeds, so yes they will sound different. But I'm thinking the benchmark for one example of a Pianet sound as of 1965 can be heard on the Beatles' "Help" soundtrack, tracks like The Night Before, etc. But still, short of photos and a person who is a Hohner expert, it's hard to tell them apart. And even with photos, Cembalets and Pianets shared almost the same if not the same cabinet housing. The difference was the range of the keyboard.

Not an answer but hope that adds some info.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 13, 2019, 07:26:04 PM
Now here's a pretty cool comparison: Vintage clips of Manfred Mann miming "Do Wah Diddy", but it shows the keyboardist's rig as it was heard on the track. And this is one confirmed use of the Cembalet versus the Pianet.

Clip 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1_kionQlLY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1_kionQlLY)

Clip 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc0x7xOap4I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc0x7xOap4I)

Note he has the Cembalet perched atop the Vox Continental organ, so he can blend both the main organ riff and the neo-classical sounding bridge riffs using both 'boards simultaneously.

But looking at that clip, not seeing the Hohner's keys close up, the cabinet is the same as the Pianet, so who could tell without knowing Manfred Mann used the Cembalet? I think the Cembalet had more of a piano sound due to the keys being plucked versus "sucked"...but it was used far less often (or famously) than the Pianet. The only major use of it that I can think of is someone confirmed it was used on Herman's Hermits "I'm Into Something Good".


Best way to do an A/B comparison in 2019 with the least investment and travel? Kurzweil and their various sound packs and libraries. They nail the vintage sounds, hands down.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 14, 2019, 05:33:00 AM
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Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 14, 2019, 05:49:23 AM
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Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 14, 2019, 06:28:43 AM

Western had at least a Yamaha grand piano, a Steinway upright piano, and an old Wegman tack piano that seemed to be permanent fixtures, along with the Hammond B3 and probably the acoustic harpsichord. I think other keyboards that showed up on sessions there likely would've been brought in from outside.

Bruce Botnick at Sunset had a particular honky-tonk tack piano that Brian apparently liked to use and showed up on I Just Wasn't Made for These Times and Good Vibrations at outside studios, so that's an interesting example of one being borrowed around a bit.

You don't think the major studios in LA had a Wurlitzer or even a Pianet available in house by 1965/66?


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 14, 2019, 06:37:14 AM
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Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 14, 2019, 06:46:38 AM

Western had at least a Yamaha grand piano, a Steinway upright piano, and an old Wegman tack piano that seemed to be permanent fixtures, along with the Hammond B3 and probably the acoustic harpsichord. I think other keyboards that showed up on sessions there likely would've been brought in from outside.

Bruce Botnick at Sunset had a particular honky-tonk tack piano that Brian apparently liked to use and showed up on I Just Wasn't Made for These Times and Good Vibrations at outside studios, so that's an interesting example of one being borrowed around a bit.

You don't think the major studios in LA had a Wurlitzer or even a Pianet available in house by 1965/66?

I didn't say that, but Brian only ever used an electric piano of any kind at Western a couple of times in 1965. Those other keyboards all show up on dozens of recordings there spanning years.

I guess the wording was confusing, because you said other keyboards that showed up on sessions at Western likely would have been brought in from outside. If you're talking strictly Brian Wilson productions, that's different especially by 1967, but still the studios would have had a collection of the few other electric keyboards that existed as of the mid-60's, and there weren't many choices anyway.

After Ray Charles had a massive hit with What I'd Say, I reckon many studios who were cutting records on any professional level would have had a Wurli in their collection, for one example. As soon as a new sound appeared on a smash hit, everyone would usually get whatever it was that created that sound so they could draw clients and have it available. I'd bet even today we could walk into 4 out of 5 studios of any consequence and find a Wurli, a Clavinet, a Rhodes, etc even though they've become a niche retro/vintage item.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 14, 2019, 07:42:51 AM
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Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 14, 2019, 03:48:31 PM
So two thoughts:

1.  I wonder if anyone has tried (or could try) to track some of these instruments.  I'm fairly certain that, for instance, a vibraphone at Vox is known to have links to Pet Sounds (https://dt7v1i9vyp3mf.cloudfront.net/styles/news_large/s3/imagelibrary/s/sf061708-7Txsh3CFOt6oruAqJ4lNZC8sPmUvgRSC.jpg (https://dt7v1i9vyp3mf.cloudfront.net/styles/news_large/s3/imagelibrary/s/sf061708-7Txsh3CFOt6oruAqJ4lNZC8sPmUvgRSC.jpg))

Studios that have had a stable chain of custody, your Sunsets Sound, etc, what are the chances their Hammond is the one used on Here Today?

2.  Later...


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 14, 2019, 05:37:26 PM
And 2,

What I'm interested in touches on Salty's point that, despite a multitude of potential choices, Brian stopped experiment much with keyboards after starting to get into it on stuff like Rhonda or LHRW, to the point where Pet Sounds is a pretty acoustic piano heavy record, with only some Hammond and a bit of harpsichord here and there.    So, you know, what was it about the "Rhondaness" of an electric piano that Made Brian choose two of them?  He's always said and the musicians have backed up that he really didn't have exact sounds in mind ahead of time (thus Jim Horn having to bring the entire sax, clarinet, and flute family; or Jerry Cole bringing 15-20 guitar family instruments.) . We hear this happen on session tape all the time, an instrument that starts out maybe isn't there for the last take.  (Sadly either Winston Wong stopped that tape for a lot of these moments of transition, or the SOT people edited them out, usually...)

Anyway, that's part of the story I want to tell.  While I will get into what these things sound like, and indeed, try to emulate it sometimes, it's less about "getting that sound" and more about the instruments as characters in the drama.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 15, 2019, 08:47:58 AM
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Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 15, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Does anyone know when Brian's first use of taped strings on a piano was? That's a really important sound in the Pet Sounds and Smile era. It sounds to me like it was almost always applied to an upright (and a tacked upright once or twice), but there are a couple of later examples on Aren't You Glad and Cool Cool Water where it's clear he did the same thing with his Chickering grand. The Fender Rhodes and Baldwin electric harpsichord at Columbia and Sound Recorders are worth noting for experiments at other studios.

The keyboard selection explodes in the home studio era, which is imo one of the most interesting aspects of the production style in those years. Baldwin, Hammond and Farfisa organs, electric harpsichord, Clavinet, Roxichord, Rhodes, Wurlitzer, detuned grand piano, tack piano, keyboard glockenspiel, toy piano, harmonium, Chamberlin, Moog, pipe organ... and probably 200 others I forgot.

What do you make of the piano sound on "Trombone Dixie"? Could that be the honky-tonk tuned tack piano borrowed from Sunset Sound? And/or does it sound like its strings are taped? Otherwise, I would say "I'm Waiting For The Day" and "God Only Knows" (cut within four days of one another) would be Brian's first uses of the taped piano string sound, and to me it sounds like it's a tack piano that's been treated with tape - you hear the "clicky" attack of tacks, but the decay is choked off and the sound overall is softer, so I don't think it's just a case of using the damper pedal.

Jumping ahead a few years to the house studio era, it seems that on "All This Is That", Carl used an RMI Electra-piano for those single-line electric piano parts, while using a Wurly for the main chord vamping part. So that's another instrument to add to that later list!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 15, 2019, 10:18:53 AM
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Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 15, 2019, 11:10:28 AM
How about the piano on "Sloop John B."? Not saying at all that it might be taped, but that one's so distant (probably not close-mic'd) and swamped in room ambience, that I've gone back-and-forth as to whether it's an upright tack or a normal baby grand.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 15, 2019, 11:50:23 AM
It's not as pronounced because it's being drowned out in the mix by the mallets hitting the same quarter notes, but Let Him Run Wild sounds like the precursor to the more famous muted piano tracks to come. Whether it's being muted or not. But it sometimes sounds like it is to my ears.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 15, 2019, 12:55:17 PM
How about the piano on "Sloop John B."? Not saying at all that it might be taped, but that one's so distant (probably not close-mic'd) and swamped in room ambience, that I've gone back-and-forth as to whether it's an upright tack or a normal baby grand.

It does seem likely that it is either not miked or that fader is so low that it is effectively unmiked (and Al Casey's Rhythm Guitar seems pretty much the same).  I think that's an inheritance from Spector.  The piano on LHRW is not unlike that, in that it's definitely not real present.  I don't think it's taped, but it doesn't sound quite like the Una Corda pedal either.  The piano on IJWMFTT is more present in the Horn Mic than on its own.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 16, 2019, 09:42:58 AM
For reference, I've edited together all the electric piano noodles on the Rhonda session and looped it three times since it's so short.

https://vocaroo.com/i/s1xEKGWW9Sav (https://vocaroo.com/i/s1xEKGWW9Sav)


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 16, 2019, 11:51:47 AM
For reference, I've edited together all the electric piano noodles on the Rhonda session and looped it three times since it's so short.

https://vocaroo.com/i/s1xEKGWW9Sav (https://vocaroo.com/i/s1xEKGWW9Sav)

Great clip, thanks for that! Now here's the conundrum. The session sheet says "Hohner", and yes that sound of the noodling between takes does sound like a Pianet. I'm deliberately saying Pianet because the Cembalet was just not as common in the US in the mid-60's, and if you look at whatever threadbare credits there are for confirmed Cembalet parts on hit records, most if not all were recorded in Europe by European bands. The Pianet was much more common, even though it was still an import to the US at the time of Rhonda, but there were still more Pianets than Cembalets in America as of 1965.

Back to the conundrum. The Pianet and the Wurlitzer "EP" model sound very, very similar depending on how they are played. Both have a "growl" which happens mostly in the lower end when they're struck hard and distort the amp. But the Wurlitzer has more of a growl. Both have a similar chime, the Wurlitzer *can* sound a little more smooth low-to-mid frequency wise than the Pianet which has more high end "bite". But, both can sound alike.

Difference above all: The Wurlitzer has sustain with a traditional sustain pedal, the Pianet did not. Once you released the keys of a Pianet, the sound stopped. The Wurli had a "loud pedal" which only brought out more growl.

Sonic examples to further muddy the waters? Here are two of the most highly regarded studio recordings of these respective keyboards. For fun, without looking up the answers, try to identify the keyboard being played...Wurlitzer EP200 or Hohner Pianet. Please post answers. This may give an example alongside the Rhonda studio noodling of how difficult an ID can be with these vintage tracks. Because they sound the same.

Example #1, one of the most pure recordings of this keyboard ever done: https://youtu.be/-YAMbLHcS-8 (https://youtu.be/-YAMbLHcS-8)

Example #2, same description as above, same keyboardist and group: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fdAFmtq-o8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fdAFmtq-o8)

Example #3, one of the most famous recordings of this keyboard playing a solo: https://youtu.be/3f33ZUM1RjM?t=97 (https://youtu.be/3f33ZUM1RjM?t=97)

Example #4, one of the most famous rock intros of all time, what's the keyboard being played? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKt75jUuKJY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKt75jUuKJY)

Example #5, bonus question. What is this keyboard? No cheating, ears only. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIj7iwG8IkE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIj7iwG8IkE)


Some of these are so similar, the type of keyboard used was misidentified for years. That's the conundrum even ID'ing the "Rhonda" sound. Curious to see the answers, and again no cheating by looking it up!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 16, 2019, 02:03:44 PM
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Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: JK on November 26, 2019, 05:21:21 AM
Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

- The use of the mandolin and associated instruments in Beach Boys and other '60s music. (Can't leave out your principal instrument.)

I think the more ideas with minimum additional costs the better--at least right now. Just my two euro cents worth. ::)


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 26, 2019, 05:31:17 AM
Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.


FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: JK on November 26, 2019, 05:58:48 AM
Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. ;D


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 26, 2019, 06:20:43 AM
Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. ;D


It still sounds like a good idea--and I do plan a string scoring episode!  It will happen when I can figure out how to do 4 or 5 way split screen video so people can see me play all the parts at once!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 26, 2019, 09:36:41 AM
Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. ;D


It still sounds like a good idea--and I do plan a string scoring episode!  It will happen when I can figure out how to do 4 or 5 way split screen video so people can see me play all the parts at once!

That would be mind-boggling!  Y'know, another string score that doesn't really sound like a Brian arrangement is that for "In The Back Of My Mind". If it IS his, it would pretty much be his first, right? The strings on the Christmas album were scored by Dick Reynolds, and I don't think any of Brian's outside productions up to that point utilized strings. Makes me wonder if someone else didn't orchestrate that track. No AFM sheet has surfaced that might reveal an outside arranger, and no one's stepped forward to claim or assign credit to anyone else, though.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 26, 2019, 10:38:04 AM
Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. ;D


It still sounds like a good idea--and I do plan a string scoring episode!  It will happen when I can figure out how to do 4 or 5 way split screen video so people can see me play all the parts at once!

That would be mind-boggling!  Y'know, another string score that doesn't really sound like a Brian arrangement is that for "In The Back Of My Mind". If it IS his, it would pretty much be his first, right? The strings on the Christmas album were scored by Dick Reynolds, and I don't think any of Brian's outside productions up to that point utilized strings. Makes me wonder if someone else didn't orchestrate that track. No AFM sheet has surfaced that might reveal an outside arranger, and no one's stepped forward to claim or assign credit to anyone else, though.

From what I understand, Dick Reynolds either mentored or tutored Brian to some degree on the art of arranging for strings and bigger, traditional orchestras as heard on the Christmas album. So it would not be surprising if Brian may have had some basic ideas which were fleshed out in more detail for the strings by someone like Reynolds...if that's true that Reynolds was mentoring Brian in that area of arranging.

Consider there have been many all-time classic arrangements and compositions which started as exercises or projects by a music student. "Moonlight Serenade" was according to legend an exercise written by Glenn Miller when he was studying the Schillinger method of arranging and writing in the 1930's...and that Schillinger method eventually started the music school which would become Berklee. "Moonlight Serenade" is one of the finest compositions and arrangements of the 20th Century, and it started as a student exercise more or less, if the legend is true. So it's not unusual to think Brian and Reynolds may have been an arranger collaboration of sorts on examples as mentioned.

Any confirmation beyond my own that Brian either studied or learned some orchestral writing techniques from Dick Reynolds?


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 26, 2019, 11:01:54 AM
It sounds a bit Dick Reynoldsy, filtered through Brian, maybe.  It's very clever little arrangement, with the pizzicato strings echoing but not copying the Billy Strange guitar part--whoever did the arrangement definitely had a good familiarity with the existing track.  And of course, the famous ending, which ends without resolution!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 26, 2019, 12:16:17 PM
It sounds a bit Dick Reynoldsy, filtered through Brian, maybe.  It's very clever little arrangement, with the pizzicato strings echoing but not copying the Billy Strange guitar part--whoever did the arrangement definitely had a good familiarity with the existing track.  And of course, the famous ending, which ends without resolution!

Yeah, I would bet the ending was Brian's idea!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: JK on November 26, 2019, 01:04:01 PM
Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. ;D


It still sounds like a good idea--and I do plan a string scoring episode!  It will happen when I can figure out how to do 4 or 5 way split screen video so people can see me play all the parts at once!

That would be very cool! Perhaps Zach Wolfe can help--he used to post here for years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OvjxHSIsIQ

Nice to see a bit of action in this topic and "Don't Talk"...


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 26, 2019, 01:22:05 PM
Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. ;D


It still sounds like a good idea--and I do plan a string scoring episode!  It will happen when I can figure out how to do 4 or 5 way split screen video so people can see me play all the parts at once!

That would be very cool! Perhaps Zach Wolfe can help--he used to post here for years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OvjxHSIsIQ

Nice to see a bit of action in this topic and "Don't Talk"...

Wow, yeah, that's...a lot of split screen right there.  I'd imagine it's pretty easy given the right software...


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 26, 2019, 01:23:09 PM
It sounds a bit Dick Reynoldsy, filtered through Brian, maybe.  It's very clever little arrangement, with the pizzicato strings echoing but not copying the Billy Strange guitar part--whoever did the arrangement definitely had a good familiarity with the existing track.  And of course, the famous ending, which ends without resolution!

Yeah, I would bet the ending was Brian's idea!


I wonder if it started with the strings resolving, and then Brian, after hearing it, asked they not play the last chord, or if it was always devised that way.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 26, 2019, 01:26:41 PM
Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 26, 2019, 01:50:36 PM
Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??

I now actually think the "12-string" on "Don't Hurt My Little Sister" is a 6-string, double-tracked to sound like a 12-string. That's what it sounds like to me, plus it was cut in June, and Carl supposedly didn't get his Rick 12 until after seeing "A Hard Day's Night", which hit U.S. theaters in August. The Fender XII was introduced until the very end of '64 or beginning of '65, the Mosrite wasn't that common yet, and there's no evidence of Carl owning a Bellzouki. If you listen to the session tapes on the S.O.T. boot, you can hear that the guitar intro was definitely double-tracked, and it sounds to me like a regular 6-string electric on both tracks.

However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?

As for authentic acoustic 12-string: I think Carl's strumming one on "We'll Run Away". He apparently owned around that time, as he's pictured backstage with one (in the shot where Mike and Brian are clowning around, Mike in a cowboy hat and all of them wearing glittery jackets, if memory serves).


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 26, 2019, 02:13:49 PM
Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??

I now actually think the "12-string" on "Don't Hurt My Little Sister" is a 6-string, double-tracked to sound like a 12-string. That's what it sounds like to me, plus it was cut in June, and Carl supposedly didn't get his Rick 12 until after seeing "A Hard Day's Night", which hit U.S. theaters in August. The Fender XII was introduced until the very end of '64 or beginning of '65, the Mosrite wasn't that common yet, and there's no evidence of Carl owning a Bellzouki. If you listen to the session tapes on the S.O.T. boot, you can hear that the guitar intro was definitely double-tracked, and it sounds to me like a regular 6-string electric on both tracks.

However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?

As for authentic acoustic 12-string: I think Carl's strumming one on "We'll Run Away". He apparently owned around that time, as he's pictured backstage with one (in the shot where Mike and Brian are clowning around, Mike in a cowboy hat and all of them wearing glittery jackets, if memory serves).


It's a close call on Don't Hurt My Little Sister, isn't it!?  I agree that the part is doubled, and I was listening to the session today and starting to be skeptical about a 12 as well...  Would that make the first appearance of the electric 12 at a session the Dance Dance Dance sesh?

I'll check out Back Home and We'll Run Away.

As a side note--and one that will get some attention in my show--it's fascinating that Carol was savvy enough to have her guitar tech mod out a Guild T-150 to be an electric 12 string before electric 12s were all that available.  Long ago, she wrote that she and Barney Kessel were the first in LA to try to get electric 12 sounds with acoustic guitars, each of them installing pickups in their acoustic 12s.  Carol, probably having seen the Bellzoukis start to make their way into sessions, had the foresight to convert a six string, which she then used for years.  It makes you wonder if Barney (and others) did something similar to get a suitable electric 12-sound beyond the Bellzouki, until Rick and Fender and Mosrite and the other companies made stock models.  That's the kind of thing we might be hearing on some of those early-mid to mid-60s sessions!

And yes, when I have the money, I plan to mod a Guild Slim Jim into a 12-string so I can do guitar videos for I'm Waiting for the Day, God Only Knows, and maybe Caroline, No....


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: SBonilla on November 26, 2019, 02:29:36 PM
Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??


However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?


Is Carol taking credit for the 12 string on that track? At Phil's request, Scott Turner showed up with "The Animal."
(http://www.musicmorselsonline.com/2006_09/graphics/pics/The%20Animal_small.jpg)


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 26, 2019, 02:45:13 PM
Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??


However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?


Is Carol taking credit for the 12 string on that track?

No, but her name's on the AFM contract for "Back Home" '63, and to me the intro (as heard on the Made In California box set) sounds 12-stringish.
EDIT: unless you mean the Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me" track? Yeah, she apparently does take credit for that, as Wikipedia credits her with that intro.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: SBonilla on November 26, 2019, 03:42:25 PM
Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??

However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?


Is Carol taking credit for the 12 string on that track?

No, but her name's on the AFM contract for "Back Home" '63, and to me the intro (as heard on the Made In California box set) sounds 12-stringish.
EDIT: unless you mean the Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me" track? Yeah, she apparently does take credit for that, as Wikipedia credits her with that intro.


I meant the Crystals.

Not the Beach Boys, but on He's A Doll, Brian gets a simulated 12 string sound by doubling the single note electric guitar part with an electric piano (sounds like a Wurlitzer). That part and the turnaround after the first chorus shows a Then He Kissed Me Influence. 



Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 26, 2019, 06:47:57 PM
Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??


However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?


Is Carol taking credit for the 12 string on that track?

No, but her name's on the AFM contract for "Back Home" '63, and to me the intro (as heard on the Made In California box set) sounds 12-stringish.
EDIT: unless you mean the Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me" track? Yeah, she apparently does take credit for that, as Wikipedia credits her with that intro.


I always thought the intro to the 63 "Back Home" sounded like a zither of some kind, or a similar instrument. A zither with doubled melody strings, not single strings.

Click on the link for a comparison with the same tremolo-picking technique used: https://youtu.be/Md9hJrkYMhs?t=6 (https://youtu.be/Md9hJrkYMhs?t=6)
And here's Back Home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMTmJYRdC-U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMTmJYRdC-U)


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 26, 2019, 07:47:44 PM
I can hear a sort of acoustic guitar tone in the "Back Home" intro - like, the sound of the actual sound-hole.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 26, 2019, 10:37:05 PM
I can hear a sort of acoustic guitar tone in the "Back Home" intro - like, the sound of the actual sound-hole.

The zither has a sound hole too  ;D


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 26, 2019, 10:40:43 PM
What bothered me about the intro to Back Home was the attack, the way the strings were picked or struck on whatever instrument we're hearing. It didn't sound like a standard pick or plectrum.

So I made this video, no budget or production value, and it's done on an unplugged 12-string electric since I don't have an acoustic handy, showing what I imagined it *could* have been. No room reverb either.

Is it how that intro was done? Probably not. But take a look and give a listen, and see what you think. It could have been done similar to this...maybe... ;D

https://youtu.be/lvAz4Kfzdm0 (https://youtu.be/lvAz4Kfzdm0)


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 27, 2019, 07:46:45 AM
I can hear a sort of acoustic guitar tone in the "Back Home" intro - like, the sound of the actual sound-hole.

The zither has a sound hole too  ;D

True, but on the intro of "Back Home", I hear what sounds more like a larger-body, wooden acoustic guitar sound-hole reverberation than the what the slimmer-body zither is capable of producing.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: c-man on November 27, 2019, 07:49:21 AM
What bothered me about the intro to Back Home was the attack, the way the strings were picked or struck on whatever instrument we're hearing. It didn't sound like a standard pick or plectrum.

So I made this video, no budget or production value, and it's done on an unplugged 12-string electric since I don't have an acoustic handy, showing what I imagined it *could* have been. No room reverb either.

Is it how that intro was done? Probably not. But take a look and give a listen, and see what you think. It could have been done similar to this...maybe... ;D

https://youtu.be/lvAz4Kfzdm0 (https://youtu.be/lvAz4Kfzdm0)

THAT sounds closer to the "Back Home" intro, to me, than what a zither would. I don't think it was necessarily struck with a pencil on "Back Home", but I now think it was Carol's acoustic 12-string, perhaps either tapped with fingers or struck with some kind of mallet...


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: SBonilla on November 27, 2019, 08:40:56 AM
I can hear a sort of acoustic guitar tone in the "Back Home" intro - like, the sound of the actual sound-hole.

I can hear why you'd say that. Gabor Szabo's tone was similar- he played an acoustic with a pickup. My fist impression was that it was a 12 string with a pickup playing the whole part on the high E string.
My jury is still out.

Baby Don't Go has a similar (tho, not as precisely played) guitar part at the pre-chorus ("I can't stay...").



Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: WillJC on November 27, 2019, 09:34:48 AM
.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: SBonilla on November 27, 2019, 10:24:36 AM
Back Home sounds to me like fast strumming on an acoustic 12-string, no special technique. I don't think it's only on the high e string though. I get a more similar sound on my 6-string acoustic with the top two strings.

I hear it now. First two notes on the B string.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 27, 2019, 10:33:48 AM
What bothered me about the intro to Back Home was the attack, the way the strings were picked or struck on whatever instrument we're hearing. It didn't sound like a standard pick or plectrum.

So I made this video, no budget or production value, and it's done on an unplugged 12-string electric since I don't have an acoustic handy, showing what I imagined it *could* have been. No room reverb either.

Is it how that intro was done? Probably not. But take a look and give a listen, and see what you think. It could have been done similar to this...maybe... ;D

https://youtu.be/lvAz4Kfzdm0 (https://youtu.be/lvAz4Kfzdm0)

THAT sounds closer to the "Back Home" intro, to me, than what a zither would. I don't think it was necessarily struck with a pencil on "Back Home", but I now think it was Carol's acoustic 12-string, perhaps either tapped with fingers or struck with some kind of mallet...

The pencil was just the most convenient "mallet" to do that experiment. But it does sound close to that intro with something other than a pick striking the strings.

For the decades I've been playing guitar, I haven't heard a standard pick tremolo-picking a string sound like *that intro*. There is extra noise that a pick on strings doesn't produce. That's why I tried it with the video, to see if something being drummed on the string could come close. And minus knowing exactly what was used and how it was done, it did come close...

For those saying it's a standard guitar, listen to the first note, "E". There is an octave above the normal open E which is heard on that first note. You don't get that on either a 6 or 12 string guitar playing open E. That's why I fretted "E" on the G string, of that 12-string in the video. It's the only place you would get that specific high octave on a 12 string guitar to sound like that.

Did it come close when I tried all the notes on the E string? Yes. But it didn't have that octave which starts the whole riff.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: SBonilla on November 27, 2019, 11:06:03 AM
What bothered me about the intro to Back Home was the attack, the way the strings were picked or struck on whatever instrument we're hearing. It didn't sound like a standard pick or plectrum.

So I made this video, no budget or production value, and it's done on an unplugged 12-string electric since I don't have an acoustic handy, showing what I imagined it *could* have been. No room reverb either.

Is it how that intro was done? Probably not. But take a look and give a listen, and see what you think. It could have been done similar to this...maybe... ;D

https://youtu.be/lvAz4Kfzdm0 (https://youtu.be/lvAz4Kfzdm0)

THAT sounds closer to the "Back Home" intro, to me, than what a zither would. I don't think it was necessarily struck with a pencil on "Back Home", but I now think it was Carol's acoustic 12-string, perhaps either tapped with fingers or struck with some kind of mallet...

The pencil was just the most convenient "mallet" to do that experiment. But it does sound close to that intro with something other than a pick striking the strings.

For the decades I've been playing guitar, I haven't heard a standard pick tremolo-picking a string sound like *that intro*. There is extra noise that a pick on strings doesn't produce. That's why I tried it with the video, to see if something being drummed on the string could come close. And minus knowing exactly what was used and how it was done, it did come close...

For those saying it's a standard guitar, listen to the first note, "E". There is an octave above the normal open E which is heard on that first note. You don't get that on either a 6 or 12 string guitar playing open E. That's why I fretted "E" on the G string, of that 12-string in the video. It's the only place you would get that specific high octave on a 12 string guitar to sound like that.

Did it come close when I tried all the notes on the E string? Yes. But it didn't have that octave which starts the whole riff.
I did hear that octave at the beginning. I didn't have anything to attribute that to. I haven't played a 12 string that many times; I forgot about the B and E not having octave doubles.
When I listen to it casually, it sounds like Brian wanted to evoke the sound of a banjo or mandolin to give it a homey feel.  
I'm still listening for something other than 16th notes being played with a pick.
PS I just tried out the pencil as hammer technique. Very interesting...


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 28, 2019, 06:54:17 AM
Well, if you all can wait until late December, I'll have my acoustic 12 to demonstrate on.


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: JK on November 28, 2019, 11:28:27 AM
Well, if you all can wait until late December, I'll have my acoustic 12 to demonstrate on.

Sounds well worth the wait to me! :smokin


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Robbie Mac on November 30, 2019, 11:30:06 AM
Something that’s always been a puzzler for me is figuring out the vocal arrangements. Some episodes on the vocals would be pretty neat to see. 😉


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: JK on December 08, 2019, 02:22:24 PM
Well, if you all can wait until late December, I'll have my acoustic 12 to demonstrate on.

JH, there's someone on another website I post at who would like to know what four-stringed instrument you are playing in episode 00 at about the three-minute mark. I suggested an electric mandolin, as in the credits, but could you be more specific? Thanks! Sorry if you've mentioned it elsewhere and I missed it...


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 08, 2019, 02:24:34 PM
Well, if you all can wait until late December, I'll have my acoustic 12 to demonstrate on.

JH, there's someone on another website I post at who would like to know what four-stringed instrument you are playing in episode 00 at about the three-minute mark. I suggested an electric mandolin, as in the credits, but could you be more specific? Thanks! Sorry if you've mentioned it elsewhere and I missed it...

It's an Eastwood Mandostang!

https://eastwoodguitars.com/products/warren-ellis-mandostang?variant=34599885764 (https://eastwoodguitars.com/products/warren-ellis-mandostang?variant=34599885764)


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: JK on December 08, 2019, 02:31:20 PM
Well, if you all can wait until late December, I'll have my acoustic 12 to demonstrate on.

JH, there's someone on another website I post at who would like to know what four-stringed instrument you are playing in episode 00 at about the three-minute mark. I suggested an electric mandolin, as in the credits, but could you be more specific? Thanks! Sorry if you've mentioned it elsewhere and I missed it...

It's an Eastwood Mandostang!

https://eastwoodguitars.com/products/warren-ellis-mandostang?variant=34599885764 (https://eastwoodguitars.com/products/warren-ellis-mandostang?variant=34599885764)

Thank you! I'll pass it on. ;)

What a gorgeous sound it makes!


Title: Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
Post by: UEF on December 09, 2019, 02:14:36 AM
Something that’s always been a puzzler for me is figuring out the vocal arrangements. Some episodes on the vocals would be pretty neat to see. 😉

I found this the other day which makes it surprisingly easy to read

https://www.surfermoon.com/tabs.shtml#vocal

There are a few songs (Til I Die, etc) linked on there. The GitHub site linked to is offline now, but archived here: https://web.archive.org/web/20120205222544/http://beach-boys.aure.com/
Seems some of the linked files are gone though.