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Author Topic: Heroes and Villians early version  (Read 2088 times)
mike moseley
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« on: October 07, 2019, 03:37:30 PM »

Circa Occtober '66 H&V seems to have consisted of just the bits from the piano demo + maybe the early 'intro' bit.  Not much of a song really is it - just 3 fairly disjointed sections.  There are apparently quite a few missing session tapes for it from nov/dec so presumably there was other stuff recorded to fill it out..?

Or possibly those initial 3 sections repeated a bit more to fill it out.  IIGS I think was probably going to have more overdubs on it - presumably the texture was to be in keeping with Barnyard..?  Just guessing of course but the IIGS bits we have I don't think sound fully produced.  The snippet Mark caught on his phone actually does sound more like it production wise.

So do people think he recorded those initial 3 bits then got stuck and left it - or was it much more complete but he then decided to revise it after christmas and start adding Cantina etc..?
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mike moseley
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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2019, 04:05:31 PM »

Of course I realize this has all been hashed over a million times but the Durrie Parks clip for instance definitely shows there is material missing.

I think Barnyard makes a fine chorus but the problem is getting back out of it and back into the main song - I've never heard an edit that manages this successfully.
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2019, 07:37:39 AM »

At the time of the piano demo in November the song consisted of the two verses, IIGS, and then "another section" Barnyard, which was likely planned as the final section/fade (as it was replaced by the similar "false Barnyard" or tag to Old Master Painter in the Feb cantina version).  What we don't know is what was between IIGS and Barnyard, but Brian mentioned "we're still working" so clearly what was to go in the middle was still undecided.  The December acetate reveals that one edit Brian was considering was IIGS (new version)/"my children were raised . . . healthy wealthy and often wise" fast section/Heroes shortened verse (for "three score and five").  I have to think Brian would also have included an a capella section as he did in both cantina and the final version, most likely (considering the Dec acetate) right after the three score and five.  So we have:

verses/IIGS/children were raised/three score and five/a capella/Barnyard

The Dec "intro" was recorded as Heroes Part 3 so the only place it could go based on the above would be after the a capella section and before Barnyard.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2019, 08:18:23 AM »

This reminds me of the days on the Smile Shop and prior to that, the hours some of us spent trying to fit random pieces of this music together and then finding out there were others obsessed with it who loved to talk about it. Hard to believe that was over 20 years ago and more...and look at what has happened since.

I do think it's important to look at the fact that these were indeed "disjointed sections" during nearly the entire process of Brian trying to cobble them together into a cohesive whole, and that is essentially the whole point and genesis of the song. Good Vibrations was at many points a similar song and construction, where the disjointed sections were tried and tested in various sequences and edits until Brian knew he hit on the right one. Just go through the multiple discs of GV outtakes and unused sections/sessions both officially and unofficially released and available, and it's amazing how such a cohesive song form was created from literally hours of taped material.

I think there is not and will never be an answer to these questions, and it's all speculation. We know test edits were made, and we know Brian was working on a song form which was constantly changing and evolving, sometimes from one day to the next. And he was testing the sequences as the process moved forward.

Many of these were simply tests to see how it would sound when sequenced a certain way. The sequence he played for Humble Harve in November was a snapshot in time, more valuable as a snapshot of the composer playing his own creation in his own voice than it is a Rosetta Stone for how it was to be sequenced. That sequencing was always changing. The parts of the sequence were regularly being added, shifted, and changed...and in some cases dropped entirely.

For me, the best and most solid or complete of these snapshots in time was the "Chuck Britz Edit", the song cut down to fit a radio single which first appeared on the Smiley 2-fer and later on the GV box set. That is a tight edit, has some of the best fragments flowing in and out of each other (I'm thinking specifically 'Cantina' and the tape explosion effect), and it's cut to produce a radio single, not an album mix. Bookend that with H&V "Part 2" on the GV box set, the edit of many fragments that are disjointed yet still create a wonderful pastiche that ebbs and flows without sounding like pieces haphazardly cut together.

And look what happened to the Britz/Cantina mix...it got scrapped. I will never understand why that didn't come out, and still hold that as one of my favorite Smile sections, easily my favorite "Heroes" mix.

So if something that good got canned, consider how many fragments and sections we know of suffered the same fate without getting a final mixdown and edit, and fell victim perhaps to so many (too many?) innovative musical sections being labeled under the "Heroes" umbrella and getting shelved when that umbrella became too small to hold all the things under it.

Speculation is fun, yes. But there are very, very few answers.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 08:21:35 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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mike moseley
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2019, 08:36:52 AM »

Ah so the Durrie Parks edit is from December..?   I think its a safe be the main melody would always have come back after those initial 4 verses - the 'my children' melody is basically the main melody.

I think your sequence below is a very logical one and would flow.   IIGS I'm sure would have been layered up to be real ear candy - I think this because all the other fully produced sections are + what we have of IIGS just sounds like the basis without the harmonies/FX etc.

Its also possible there were sections we don't know about due to them being detailed but no tapes to be found.
 

At the time of the piano demo in November the song consisted of the two verses, IIGS, and then "another section" Barnyard, which was likely planned as the final section/fade (as it was replaced by the similar "false Barnyard" or tag to Old Master Painter in the Feb cantina version).  What we don't know is what was between IIGS and Barnyard, but Brian mentioned "we're still working" so clearly what was to go in the middle was still undecided.  The December acetate reveals that one edit Brian was considering was IIGS (new version)/"my children were raised . . . healthy wealthy and often wise" fast section/Heroes shortened verse (for "three score and five").  I have to think Brian would also have included an a capella section as he did in both cantina and the final version, most likely (considering the Dec acetate) right after the three score and five.  So we have:

verses/IIGS/children were raised/three score and five/a capella/Barnyard

The Dec "intro" was recorded as Heroes Part 3 so the only place it could go based on the above would be after the a capella section and before Barnyard.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2019, 08:45:39 AM »

Ref the Cantina mix:   it doesn't work for me as a complete song.  It has many brilliant sections of course but I find it too jumpy.   I don't like the laughing FX I think they're clumsy and should have been suggested by instruments.   I don't like 'you're under arrest/train whistle' - at least not for repeated listens.  I also don't like the feedback dead-stop -  I mean its cool but for repeated listens..?  I think its jarring.

Having said that the first time I heard the mix I laughed in astonishment.  I know this what Brian was going for.

So I do think Cantina could work as a hit 45 if smoothed out with a couple more sections.  Presumably Brian though similar as I think the mix only stood for a couple of days or so..?
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2019, 09:13:43 AM »

To each his own regarding the Britz single mix and opinions thereof. But it was and is the only fully realized final mix of Heroes that exists prior to the summer 67 released version, and this was the one that would have been waiting for release had that happened as planned.

Notice it was cut to run 4 seconds under 3 minutes, the gold standard for a pop single release. Clearly no accident.

I think there is a tendency to place more weight or importance on test edits, fragments, speculation, and mixes done 4 or 5 decades after the fact instead of looking at what actually does exist in terms of what was actually prepared for a possible release. The Britz mix stands as one of the few examples of the latter and shows precisely what Brian wanted at that moment in time.

Where did the info come from regarding the scrapping of this mix within a few days?
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2019, 09:20:33 AM »

RE: The Feb 10 'Cantina' mix, Chuck Britz wasn't involved in the editing/mixing. I'm sure he would've done some editing tracks like Good Vibrations and Do You Like Worms where the songs were assembled before vocals were dubbed to a complete mono track, but H&V wasn't constructed that way and any mixing at that stage would've been done at Columbia. The Feb 10 mix in particular is definitely a Columbia edit, engineer unconfirmed, but a note from Marilyn about the Cantina laughter (added while the group were in Miami) suggests it was Ralph Valentin.

I can believe that it was considered a finished A-side at the time it was mixed, but Brian obviously went back on that call a few days later when he added Prelude to Fade and the first version of the chorus in Abm. Key here is the missing lyrics - Van Dyke has confirmed that all of the verses were written on the same night. I don't normally like speculating on things like this but it's probably a safe assumption that 'stand or fall' and 'so long to the city' factored into an earlier version before they were put down on tape in June, whether that was December or February, or whether or not they were actually recorded at the time.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 09:21:14 AM by wjcrerar » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2019, 09:31:10 AM »

So the quotes directly from Chuck Britz about his involvement in that single mix are wrong, and Chuck was wrong? In that case, what single mix of Heroes did Chuck mix for Heroes if not this 3 minute version is the obvious follow up.

Edit: might be good for a refresher to review Chuck Britz's comments on the Heroes mix...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 09:33:19 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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wjcrerar
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2019, 09:35:37 AM »

Do you have the direct quotes from Chuck? I've never seen them actually substantiated beyond recollections from Priore about an interview for LLVS that isn't in LLVS, at least it wasn't when I tried to find it. Regardless of whether or not Chuck did mix a version of H&V (which was definitely possible thanks to Brian's 8-track machine), it wasn't the Feb 10 mix. That one was categorically done at CBS.

Should also note that the press reports from the time are pretty consistent on it running 4-5 minutes (or 6 minutes going off of Vosse and the interview at Mike's house in June). Again without speculating too hard, I think it's possible that later mixes could've been made and then lost that have escaped documentation. There's a tape box for a missing Jan 31 mix but I'm not sure there's actually anything for the Feb 10 version beyond that miracle safety copy.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 09:46:12 AM by wjcrerar » Logged
mike moseley
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2019, 09:48:05 AM »

I don't think that's quite right..?  It was definitely a test mix yes but a final mix for release..?   I don't think thats ever been stated apart from by Dom Priore..?

He was straight back in recording 'prelude' a few days after the mixdown so it seems to me it was either  a rough assembly or an attempt at a final song but rejected almost immediately if you allow time for coming up with 'prelude'.


To each his own regarding the Britz single mix and opinions thereof. But it was and is the only fully realized final mix of Heroes that exists prior to the summer 67 released version, and this was the one that would have been waiting for release had that happened as planned.

Notice it was cut to run 4 seconds under 3 minutes, the gold standard for a pop single release. Clearly no accident.

I think there is a tendency to place more weight or importance on test edits, fragments, speculation, and mixes done 4 or 5 decades after the fact instead of looking at what actually does exist in terms of what was actually prepared for a possible release. The Britz mix stands as one of the few examples of the latter and shows precisely what Brian wanted at that moment in time.

Where did the info come from regarding the scrapping of this mix within a few days?
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mike moseley
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2019, 09:51:37 AM »

Oh I never knew all the verse lyrics were written in one go.  Could he have meant that all the verse lyrics for the 45 were written at the same time..?


RE: The Feb 10 'Cantina' mix, Chuck Britz wasn't involved in the editing/mixing. I'm sure he would've done some editing tracks like Good Vibrations and Do You Like Worms where the songs were assembled before vocals were dubbed to a complete mono track, but H&V wasn't constructed that way and any mixing at that stage would've been done at Columbia. The Feb 10 mix in particular is definitely a Columbia edit, engineer unconfirmed, but a note from Marilyn about the Cantina laughter (added while the group were in Miami) suggests it was Ralph Valentin.

I can believe that it was considered a finished A-side at the time it was mixed, but Brian obviously went back on that call a few days later when he added Prelude to Fade and the first version of the chorus in Abm. Key here is the missing lyrics - Van Dyke has confirmed that all of the verses were written on the same night. I don't normally like speculating on things like this but it's probably a safe assumption that 'stand or fall' and 'so long to the city' factored into an earlier version before they were put down on tape in June, whether that was December or February, or whether or not they were actually recorded at the time.
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wjcrerar
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2019, 10:03:18 AM »

If I remember rightly Van Dyke said something along the lines of them having written the entire song the first night they worked together, all 'except one section' or something which I guessed was either Great Shape or Barnyard.

Don't wanna go down the route of "what could've been done in December that we're just missing", but from February Prelude to Fade seems like a very plausible candidate for a 'so long to the city' backing track to me. It's a variation on the verse music with altered chords (like Children Were Raised and Barbershop), Brian calls for a slower tempo "for vocal reasons", the strings are echoing the verse backing vocal melodies but not the lead melody, and the title is self explanatory for its position in the song.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2019, 10:57:05 AM »

Oh sure - 'prelude' is defiinitely a version of 'my children'.

I can see how the piano demo sequence could have worked with a fully realised IIGS, a couple more verses, and maybe a further section.  The problem for us doing our own mixes is the unfinished nature of IIGS.   I suppose a more fleshed out version could be created but its cheating.

Also a bit of a cheat but BR could replace IIGS in that section - you'd have to pitch it half a step though.  Not a monumental cheat as a version of that music was used as the chorus of the 45 - also VDP told me the BR lyrics were done for H&V - presumably for the B side..?

But yeah: verses - IIGS - verses - something - barnyard does seem like very likely early sequence.


If I remember rightly Van Dyke said something along the lines of them having written the entire song the first night they worked together, all 'except one section' or something which I guessed was either Great Shape or Barnyard.

Don't wanna go down the route of "what could've been done in December that we're just missing", but from February Prelude to Fade seems like a very plausible candidate for a 'so long to the city' backing track to me. It's a variation on the verse music with altered chords (like Children Were Raised and Barbershop), Brian calls for a slower tempo "for vocal reasons", the strings are echoing the verse backing vocal melodies but not the lead melody, and the title is self explanatory for its position in the song.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2019, 11:05:13 AM »

RE: The Feb 10 'Cantina' mix, Chuck Britz wasn't involved in the editing/mixing. I'm sure he would've done some editing tracks like Good Vibrations and Do You Like Worms where the songs were assembled before vocals were dubbed to a complete mono track, but H&V wasn't constructed that way and any mixing at that stage would've been done at Columbia. The Feb 10 mix in particular is definitely a Columbia edit, engineer unconfirmed, but a note from Marilyn about the Cantina laughter (added while the group were in Miami) suggests it was Ralph Valentin.

I can believe that it was considered a finished A-side at the time it was mixed, but Brian obviously went back on that call a few days later when he added Prelude to Fade and the first version of the chorus in Abm. Key here is the missing lyrics - Van Dyke has confirmed that all of the verses were written on the same night. I don't normally like speculating on things like this but it's probably a safe assumption that 'stand or fall' and 'so long to the city' factored into an earlier version before they were put down on tape in June, whether that was December or February, or whether or not they were actually recorded at the time.

What is the source for the information about Heroes (single 'Cantina mix') being mixed at Columbia versus Chuck Britz mixing it? This is specific to that single edit which appeared on the 2-fer and the GV box set...nothing else. Are you basing this on info from Marilyn or is it speculation, or is there hard fact?

Years ago myself and a few others here specifically found, dissected, and analyzed in some cases individual frames of that film showing Brian mixing at Western on 8 track, and it successfully busted a long-held mistake in reporting that Brian never mixed 8-track at Western with Chuck. The film showed it plain as day once the details were pointed out. As you said, it did happen and we know it happened unlike previous reports that he mixed at Columbia, which opened up the possibility that more mixing was done at Western - on 8 track - which would back up what Chuck said and what others around Brian during Smile had reported about Brian going to Western specifically to mix with Chuck because he had more freedom and control there versus other studios among other reasons for that choice of studios. So again I ask, what is the source that is disputing Chuck Britz?

On that same topic of  "years ago"...I did a lot of this stuff years ago, and have folders and drives I haven't accessed for literally over a decade or more sitting full of quotes, scans, audio, video, research, conversations, etc. I would like to say I can dig up more from Chuck Britz, but no guarantees.

The difference with this specific mix is that it was assigned a Capitol master number, which means it was in the pipeline for a potential release, and consider that since the gold standard for singles at this time was *still* around 3 minutes long per side of a 45rpm, give or take...the additions could have been considered for an album version of the track versus a single, and consider too that with Brian's disputes with Capitol he could have had the single in the bag at one point for the sake of Capitol's requirements and subsequent negotiations.

So we have a Heroes mixdown, 3 minutes in length, assigned a master number for Capitol, and which Chuck Britz says he worked on for a single. What or who is the source that disputes Chuck's versions of events?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 11:08:02 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2019, 11:20:57 AM »

There's some evidence the "so long to the city . . . fit with the stuff" was written in December - an eyewitness recalls it being attempted in December but abandoned at that time because of "resistance" - not that we need to go into the whole Mike Love vs the lyrcs situation.

I look at the recording of Prelude to Fade and the "chorus" differently - the chorus, for example, was tracked with a different master number (57045 vs. 57020) and was marked as "Heroes bridge" and as "Heroes and Villains side 2."  Prelude was recorded under the original master number but I interpret the multiple sections he was recording at this time as sections for a part 2 or side 2 of the single.  Chuck remembers mixing a 2 sided single in February.  On February 10th Brian told reporter Tracy Thomas “I’m doing the final mix on the A side tonight, but I can’t decide what to do on the other side.” The final mix of the A side was the “cantina” mix.  So he needed to come up with a B side and immediately started recording new sections and variations on the Heroes theme.  At some point - perhaps when he started re-recording the Heroes verse music and then the Fade, and then an "intro to Part 2" - Brian had lost the thread and the cantina version had been rejected.  That's when he put Heroes aside and announced Vegetables as the next single and held multiple sessions in April, enough to complete the single but then again left it only partially assembled.
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2019, 11:32:26 AM »


Hi BR - in the notes in the box set the chorus is logged as 'part 2' not 'side 2'.

In the single it is indeed part 2.

Could have been both - part 2 of side 2..?


 "the chorus, for example, was tracked with a different master number (57045 vs. 57020) and was marked as "Heroes bridge" and as "Heroes and Villains side 2."  
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2019, 11:43:28 AM »

There's some evidence the "so long to the city . . . fit with the stuff" was written in December - an eyewitness recalls it being attempted in December but abandoned at that time because of "resistance" - not that we need to go into the whole Mike Love vs the lyrcs situation.

I look at the recording of Prelude to Fade and the "chorus" differently - the chorus, for example, was tracked with a different master number (57045 vs. 57020) and was marked as "Heroes bridge" and as "Heroes and Villains side 2."  Prelude was recorded under the original master number but I interpret the multiple sections he was recording at this time as sections for a part 2 or side 2 of the single.  Chuck remembers mixing a 2 sided single in February.  On February 10th Brian told reporter Tracy Thomas “I’m doing the final mix on the A side tonight, but I can’t decide what to do on the other side.” The final mix of the A side was the “cantina” mix.  So he needed to come up with a B side and immediately started recording new sections and variations on the Heroes theme.  At some point - perhaps when he started re-recording the Heroes verse music and then the Fade, and then an "intro to Part 2" - Brian had lost the thread and the cantina version had been rejected.  That's when he put Heroes aside and announced Vegetables as the next single and held multiple sessions in April, enough to complete the single but then again left it only partially assembled.

Michael Vosse also reported the same as Chuck in his 1969 "Fusion" article, which I'll repost if I can. And it leads again to the question where did the info come from which says Chuck did not work on the Heroes 3-minute single mix?
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mike moseley
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2019, 11:51:34 AM »

If Prelude has the original master umber doesn't that mean it was for the single..?

I don't think Cantina is a good mix for a single and neither did the team at the time otherwise it would have been released..?

The Cantina section was very briefly around - Marilyn said she only heard it twice.

I don't mean to flog a dead horse but Cantina appears to have been created then discarded very quickly.
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2019, 12:10:55 PM »

Just for the record, Michael Vosse direct quote:

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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2019, 12:25:55 PM »

When you think about it the 45 only really has TWO musical ideas:  the verse melody (with slight variations) and the chorus.

So the Nov demo has more distinct ideas than the 45 i.e. three.  However the 45 is very cleverly planned out so that you don't notice this.

Sooo:  the Nov parts could have worked if produced and sequenced properly.  A caveat is that I don't think IIGS is a very interesting melody - the backing track and harmonies probably were going to do a lot of the heavy lifting on that section.

For my own personal mix I've got no problem dropping the BR section down a semitone and putting it in place of IIGS - cheating but quite mild cheating I reckon Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2019, 12:59:09 PM »

The early chorus I was referring to is the Piano Ditty, which is identical musical material to the final chorus but in the key of Abm rather than Ebm, still under the 57020 master. IMO it's practically a certainty that it was meant to have vocals at the time. Likewise Prelude - a verse variation missing a lead melody - for which Brian says as much on the session tape. The Feb 20 chants onward are when I think the real B-side contender material begins.

The date of Tracy Thomas' interview with Brian hasn't been confirmed. It could be Feb 10, but it could also very possibly be Jan 31 when another lost mix was created. We just don't know for certain.

As for Chuck, the 'Cantina' mix is dated Feb 10 on the box, the same evening Brian held a session at Columbia. The mix being from that date is substantiated by vocal elements that couldn't have existed until then - namely the Sunshine fade harmonies, Brian's partial replacement to Mike's lead on Cantina, the laughter, and Gene Gaddy's "you're under arrest". A rough mix of the Cantina section created Feb 7 at the earliest (due to the mandolin overdubs being present, added at the very end of said Feb 7 session) is missing all of those parts. Group then flew to Miami, the next H&V session was Feb 10. Bottom line: Chuck didn't mix it at Western. (Unless it was actually done during the Feb 9 Jasper Dailey session...but that doesn't seem likely.)

If anyone can dig up the original Chuck quotes I'd be grateful, I've seen them referenced dozens of times but never with a source. They seem to trace back to information Priore claims to have been given for LLVS but... there isn't any reference to an interview with Chuck Britz in LLVS.
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2019, 05:12:37 PM »

The early chorus I was referring to is the Piano Ditty, which is identical musical material to the final chorus but in the key of Abm rather than Ebm, still under the 57020 master. IMO it's practically a certainty that it was meant to have vocals at the time. Likewise Prelude - a verse variation missing a lead melody - for which Brian says as much on the session tape. The Feb 20 chants onward are when I think the real B-side contender material begins.

The date of Tracy Thomas' interview with Brian hasn't been confirmed. It could be Feb 10, but it could also very possibly be Jan 31 when another lost mix was created. We just don't know for certain.

As for Chuck, the 'Cantina' mix is dated Feb 10 on the box, the same evening Brian held a session at Columbia. The mix being from that date is substantiated by vocal elements that couldn't have existed until then - namely the Sunshine fade harmonies, Brian's partial replacement to Mike's lead on Cantina, the laughter, and Gene Gaddy's "you're under arrest". A rough mix of the Cantina section created Feb 7 at the earliest (due to the mandolin overdubs being present, added at the very end of said Feb 7 session) is missing all of those parts. Group then flew to Miami, the next H&V session was Feb 10. Bottom line: Chuck didn't mix it at Western. (Unless it was actually done during the Feb 9 Jasper Dailey session...but that doesn't seem likely.)

If anyone can dig up the original Chuck quotes I'd be grateful, I've seen them referenced dozens of times but never with a source. They seem to trace back to information Priore claims to have been given for LLVS but... there isn't any reference to an interview with Chuck Britz in LLVS.

Just so we're on the same page: It seems like you're pinning most if not all of your opinion that the "Cantina" mix was not done by Chuck Britz on the information written on a tape box. In doing that, did you consider the accounts of how unorganized, sometimes inaccurate (as in tapes being in the wrong box, mislabeled boxes with box notations not matching what was on the reels, boxes with no tape in them at all, etc.) , and often confusing those tape boxes and their notations were with the Smile material on all those reels?

If you're saying the date on the tape box of Feb 10 '67 excludes Chuck Britz from the scenario, would you also consider a 3-minute single mixdown could have been prepared with the same material sometime after Feb 10th at Western, or even another time during that week of Feb 6 when those sessions were held? All of those elements you cited were tracked Feb 7th...The Beach Boys did not have to be present for a mix session after everything on the single mix had been recorded, and most often the group was not present at mix sessions, even according to interviews I have seen with Chuck Britz. It was Chuck and Brian the majority of the time.

As has been offered many times here and elsewhere, the notations on tape boxes and even written on session sheets is not always airtight and 100% accurate, and definitely not infallible.

If you have questions about previous interviews with Chuck Britz, consider dropping a line to Domenic Priore and asking him, since he was one who interviewed Chuck to get some of this info on the Heroes single mixes. Go right to the source via email or Facebook.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2019, 01:40:09 AM »

I'm a bit fuzzy on master numbers.

The original verses are 56727.  Then IIGS is 56738.  Then the next bunch inc 'bridge to indians' is 57020.  Cantina is 57020.  Then all those theme variations are 57020.  Then the part 2 piano 45 chorus piano track onwards is 57045.

So what that looks like logically is IIGS was its own song - except we know at this stage it wasn't.  It also suggests that Cantina etc was for side 2/a different cut - except we know it wasn't.

So thats all nice and confusing.

Here's another thing:  bridge to indians and bicycle rider were both recorded early Jan.  Both logged as H&V so seemingly those parts were in the song by then - a good 6 months before the BR melody was recorded for the single.  VDP told me the BR lyrics were done for H&V.  The boys actually used them in the live version in the 70s.
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« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2019, 04:02:21 AM »

Also this seems to have been a sections try out for the A side in Jan:

verse edit experiment/bridge to indians/indians(i.e. BR) - unless anyone thinks 'indians' could have been something else..?

Bridge to indians ends on a C sharp chord.

I suppose it could be argued that verse edit experiment was for the B side..?
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