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652035 Posts in 26054 Topics by 3716 Members - Latest Member: Smile_Essence1 November 11, 2019, 09:21:46 PM
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Author Topic: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...  (Read 9556 times)
aeijtzsche
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« Reply #100 on: December 07, 2018, 03:35:26 PM »

Also, consider if Barney were mic'ed up for the session you'd hear more than just the live feed going into the echo chamber, which is what we hear most on those session tapes. You literally don't hear anything but the strings, and if it were close-mic'ed it would be reasonable to assume the mic would pick up more noise and various sounds.

The description given for a long time of this session was that the guitars were plugged in direct and were in the control room cutting the tracks due to the limited space at Gold Star on the studio floor. That's the scenario replicated in the L&M film for what it's worth.

I really think whatever it is is plugged in.  Wouldn't be surprised if the two intro instruments were coupled and plugged in to the same input, actually.

As far as a pick-up for the mando-guitar goes, I did a little research today and it seems like there were mandolin pick-ups that you could clamp on without screwing anything in, and also guitar pickups that you could temporarily affix with putty.  So it being an acoustic instrument really isn't an issue, although it is one more little step in the process.
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« Reply #101 on: December 08, 2018, 08:00:55 PM »

I am a member - I'm not sure if they have a non-altered version available for the public due to usage rights and all that. I'm assuming the blacked-out version is what they received in order to list for the auction but could be wrong. Did you want me to drop them a line? Might be a longshot since the auction already happened weeks ago.

Can you post the direct link where you found it, or was it just in the general listing?

I found a way to contact them without signing up and did so.  We'll see if they respond.

Excellent! Keep us posted, and I could send them something too if needed. I'm curious to see the full shot, and always wondered why whoever sourced it for the '96/'97 PS box project wouldn't have the full uncut shot available as well or why it has never appeared publicly (unless it has). Fingers crossed.
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« Reply #102 on: December 08, 2018, 08:06:21 PM »

Also, consider if Barney were mic'ed up for the session you'd hear more than just the live feed going into the echo chamber, which is what we hear most on those session tapes. You literally don't hear anything but the strings, and if it were close-mic'ed it would be reasonable to assume the mic would pick up more noise and various sounds.

The description given for a long time of this session was that the guitars were plugged in direct and were in the control room cutting the tracks due to the limited space at Gold Star on the studio floor. That's the scenario replicated in the L&M film for what it's worth.

I really think whatever it is is plugged in.  Wouldn't be surprised if the two intro instruments were coupled and plugged in to the same input, actually.

As far as a pick-up for the mando-guitar goes, I did a little research today and it seems like there were mandolin pick-ups that you could clamp on without screwing anything in, and also guitar pickups that you could temporarily affix with putty.  So it being an acoustic instrument really isn't an issue, although it is one more little step in the process.

I agree - With the limited number of sends on that board, it also sounds to me like both instruments' signals got sent to the echo chamber together. The decay "bounce" around the chamber and whatnot seems to be hitting both the same way.

I agreed that a pickup would be possible, but again it sticks in my mind why would they need to do all of this (like putting a pickup on a mandolin) when a stock 12-string or a Bellzouki for example would be as simple as plug-in-and-play to get the part down. And I believe both Fender and Vox and maybe more had electric mandolins on the market yet you really don't hear examples of too many of these coming from the LA studios in the mid-60's.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
aeijtzsche
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« Reply #103 on: December 11, 2018, 06:11:54 PM »

Just received word that the photo came to the auctioneers like that, so poop.
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« Reply #104 on: December 11, 2018, 06:22:48 PM »

Just received word that the photo came to the auctioneers like that, so poop.

The hope might be that the photo in full does exist, as in there had to be something to blur...what I'm getting at is maybe we can track down whoever was the source of that photo when the PS box and booklet was being assembled, because that too was cropped from the same larger image. And the larger image exists, at least we know that now after seeing the blurred version.

Thanks for checking!

Sometimes I wonder why photos like this - especially ones we know to exist - are kept so close to the collective vest rather than just allowing interested fans to see them before it's too late.

Same goes for the 47+ minute long Good Vibrations studio footage. No reason to keep that hidden. None.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 06:23:33 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #105 on: December 25, 2018, 07:37:38 AM »

Y'know, I thought it might be beneficial to check out the session tapes for OTHER songs where it sounds like it could be that the same mystery guitar was used, starting with the earliest: "My Childhood" (aka "You Still Believe In Me"), from mid-October '65. Barney and Glen were the only guitarists on that date. On this tape, we hear the following exchange between Brian and a guitarist who must be Barney (because it sure isn't Glen) on the Unsurpassed Masters boot of the Pet Sounds sessions, Vol. 1, Disc 3, Track 4, at 9:18:

Brian: “We’re starting to really sound dead on that.”

Barney: “Brian, Brian - up here, it’s going to sound choked and doesn’t speak as well. Because…”

Brian: “I know. Let’s go. I like that (kind of guitar) anyway.”

Barney: “Alright...(I'll do what I can with) my hands for ya.”
(the words in parentheses are somewhat unintelligible, so I've provided my best guest as to what was said there)

Brian's and Barney's comments here back up the notion that this was not an "ordinary" guitar, but rather one with the special "ringy-ding" quality that Brian so loved...and also one which was a bitch to play up high on the neck, even for someone with the formidable talents of Barney Kessel.

And...its use on this particular session (if indeed this is the earliest example of Barney playing it on one of Brian's productions) might indicate WHY it was used in such a manner (as a guitar rather than as a mandolin) in the first place!  Since a bicycle bell and horn were used on this session, it seems reasonable that Brian might have asked Barney if he had an instrument that was capable of producing a specifically "childlike" sound - and in response, Barney pulled out his one-of-a-kind Gibson mando-guitar, stringing and tuning it like a 12-string electric (if it wasn't already), and using it as such on that session, to get that special "tone" that a regular 12-string electric simply couldn't. EDIT: and it was definitely electrified on the "Childhood" session, indicating the use of the removable pickup discussed earlier on this thread - and the dialogue between Brian and Barney on this session seemingly occurred in the control booth, meaning Barney was plugged directly into the board. In the book that accompanies the Pet Sound Sessions box set, Barney recalled, "I remember that Glen Campbell was also on some of the sessions, and sometimes, Glen and I were in the engineering booth playing and the band was in the studio, on the other side of the glass." THIS would seemingly be one such session!

Then, Brian - now enamoured with the sound - subsequently asked Barney to use that specific guitar on "Wouldn't It Be Nice", "Hang Onto Your Ego"/"I Know There's An Answer", and "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" (if in fact it was used on those last two...it sounds to me like it was).

This may be the key to the whole mystery!
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 09:23:47 AM by c-man » Logged
aeijtzsche
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« Reply #106 on: October 24, 2019, 09:45:13 AM »

I found this!




Which shows Lou Morell, who, to my knowledge, never played a Beach Boys session and certainly wasn't on Pet Sounds.

Ergo, the famous shot is not of a Beach Boys session.  Not that this debunks or proves anything, just interesting to get some context!

« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 10:18:26 AM by aeijtzsche » Logged
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« Reply #107 on: October 24, 2019, 01:45:14 PM »

I found this!




Which shows Lou Morell, who, to my knowledge, never played a Beach Boys session and certainly wasn't on Pet Sounds.

Ergo, the famous shot is not of a Beach Boys session.  Not that this debunks or proves anything, just interesting to get some context!



Nice find! Well one thing it does debunk is that the cropped version of that used in the PS Sessions book showed Barney at an actual PS session. Obviously it does not. So connecting that instrument via that photo as evidence to WIBN is not possible.
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« Reply #108 on: October 25, 2019, 12:14:18 AM »

wait wait wait I do not not know---- Kessel plays manolin on Wouldnt it be nice? what are his other known BB session contributions?

big fan of him and i knew he played every now and then with wrecking crew, right- but i didnt know the extent to his BB session involvent. but i have all his solo albums on conteporary n stuff
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aeijtzsche
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« Reply #109 on: October 25, 2019, 07:16:57 AM »

wait wait wait I do not not know---- Kessel plays manolin on Wouldnt it be nice? what are his other known BB session contributions?

big fan of him and i knew he played every now and then with wrecking crew, right- but i didnt know the extent to his BB session involvent. but i have all his solo albums on conteporary n stuff

He played on a fair bit of Pet Sounds and some other stuff--

Little Girl I once knew - Dano bass
WIBN
YSBIM
LGAFA
IKTAA
IJWMFTT
Caroline, No
Trombone Dixie

Possibly on some Smile stuff--that's not my personnel wheelhouse...and possibly some earlier stuff, that I can't think of for sure off the top of my head.




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« Reply #110 on: October 25, 2019, 08:56:41 AM »

wait wait wait I do not not know---- Kessel plays manolin on Wouldnt it be nice? what are his other known BB session contributions?

big fan of him and i knew he played every now and then with wrecking crew, right- but i didnt know the extent to his BB session involvent. but i have all his solo albums on conteporary n stuff

He played on a fair bit of Pet Sounds and some other stuff--

Little Girl I once knew - Dano bass
WIBN
YSBIM
LGAFA
IKTAA
IJWMFTT
Caroline, No
Trombone Dixie

Possibly on some Smile stuff--that's not my personnel wheelhouse...and possibly some earlier stuff, that I can't think of for sure off the top of my head.






Yep...earlier stuff includes two Today! tracks:
PLEASE LET ME WONDER
KISS ME BABY
two tracks on Summer Days:
the second version of HELP ME, RHONDA
LET HIM RUN WILD

...and he's also on one SMiLE track:
LOOK (aka SONG FOR CHILDREN)

Since this is news to you, you may be interested in knowing that Howard Roberts, another noted jazz guitarist, also played on a handful of Beach Boys tracks.



« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 08:57:40 AM by c-man » Logged
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« Reply #111 on: October 25, 2019, 12:05:16 PM »

It's a slightly foreign idea, isn't?  To have these legit jazz heavies on pop records?  I have no idea who is like, a hot music act these days, but iTunes tells me that someone named "Selena Gomez" is a big seller-- Imagine is the Gomez character had, I dunno, Pat Metheny and Bill Frisell on Guitar, Richard Bona on Bass, Wynton Marsalis on trumpet, and  Dennis Chambers on drums.  I suspect my jazz people are slightly dated too, but you get the idea.
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aeijtzsche
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« Reply #112 on: October 25, 2019, 01:25:00 PM »

Does anybody recognize the fellow on the far right here?



The hair length might make this photo too late for the PS sessions, but it's a tough call, unless somebody has a better idea of when it's from, is it possible that's Jerry Cole and this is from WIBN?

It's hard to recognize Jerry Cole because the only pictures I've seen of him are from his earlier, late 50s early 60s record sleeves, and from the last 20 years.  It doesn't really look like him but he did grow a 'stache that looks a lot like that though!
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« Reply #113 on: October 25, 2019, 02:07:28 PM »

Does anybody recognize the fellow on the far right here?



The hair length might make this photo too late for the PS sessions, but it's a tough call, unless somebody has a better idea of when it's from, is it possible that's Jerry Cole and this is from WIBN?

It's hard to recognize Jerry Cole because the only pictures I've seen of him are from his earlier, late 50s early 60s record sleeves, and from the last 20 years.  It doesn't really look like him but he did grow a 'stache that looks a lot like that though!

Danny Hutton
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« Reply #114 on: October 25, 2019, 06:55:49 PM »

Yeah Hutton 100%
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aeijtzsche
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« Reply #115 on: October 25, 2019, 07:27:54 PM »

Ah, well, wishful thinking strikes again--but cool that it's Hutton.  Vis-a-vis Jerald Kolbrak, have any of you ever seen a photo of him in the studio?  Like, one?  Another example of the almost humorously bad photographic record of studio work.  Jerry Cole certainly had plenty of work, but I've never seen a photo of him in the studio.
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« Reply #116 on: October 25, 2019, 08:14:19 PM »

Looking at all of these photos just makes me so grateful for the contributions of Jasper Dailey. Think about how much of the story would be a mystery without these photographs.
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« Reply #117 on: October 26, 2019, 07:13:16 AM »

Looking at all of these photos just makes me so grateful for the contributions of Jasper Dailey. Think about how much of the story would be a mystery without these photographs.

But consider that we've probably seen some fraction of 1% of the photos he took.
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« Reply #118 on: October 26, 2019, 11:29:17 AM »

Looking at all of these photos just makes me so grateful for the contributions of Jasper Dailey. Think about how much of the story would be a mystery without these photographs.

But consider that we've probably seen some fraction of 1% of the photos he took.

I was not aware. Was there a large amount of photos that are lost or simply haven't ever been published before from these sessions?
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aeijtzsche
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« Reply #119 on: October 27, 2019, 03:19:21 PM »

Looking at all of these photos just makes me so grateful for the contributions of Jasper Dailey. Think about how much of the story would be a mystery without these photographs.

But consider that we've probably seen some fraction of 1% of the photos he took.

I was not aware. Was there a large amount of photos that are lost or simply haven't ever been published before from these sessions?

Well, to paraphrase Don Rumsfeld, it's a known unknown.  We know that over the course of the 6-8 years the LA studios were at their cookin' highest-volume work, there were several people taking lots of photos, your Jaspers Daily, your Hals Blaine, your Rays Avery, and others.  But even if only those three people took 50 photos each, that's still way more than the actual number of photos that are publicly accessible via the internet, I'd say.  I spend 10-20 minutes every day looking for them.
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« Reply #120 on: October 28, 2019, 04:05:11 AM »

Well I’ve also noted that only 2% of the photos of the BBs onstage in the 60s have been published or online but the BBs just don’t have the value of say The Beatles and as a result I don’t think people see a lot of profit in scouring through their old negatives (if they even saved them)
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« Reply #121 on: October 28, 2019, 06:53:37 AM »

Another issue with '60s BB photos is that most fan photos would have been made with cheap Instamatic type cameras, which weren't all that great for stage photography. It was mostly the pros who had better-quality cameras.
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« Reply #122 on: October 29, 2019, 05:37:16 AM »

Don't forget the photos of Guy Webster! Between Guy and Jasper, they really did document a lot of studio sessions (and musicians in general), and sadly we've only seen a small portion of what these two photogs documented, especially from 66 to 68. Sad in many ways.

But hell, there is roughly 45-50 minutes of 1966 Good Vibrations studio session footage that exists and 99% of fans who would love to see it have only seen 5 minutes of it.

*THAT* is not right, but I digress.
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« Reply #123 on: October 29, 2019, 09:36:21 AM »

Don't forget the photos of Guy Webster! Between Guy and Jasper, they really did document a lot of studio sessions (and musicians in general), and sadly we've only seen a small portion of what these two photogs documented, especially from 66 to 68. Sad in many ways.

But hell, there is roughly 45-50 minutes of 1966 Good Vibrations studio session footage that exists and 99% of fans who would love to see it have only seen 5 minutes of it.

*THAT* is not right, but I digress.

I wish all the great studio shots from Guy and Jasper were captioned with the song title, or at least the date...but, at least we have what we have.
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