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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: guitarfool2002 on November 11, 2018, 10:03:02 AM



Title: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 11, 2018, 10:03:02 AM
Just when you think the case is closed...This news of what happened yesterday November 10th '18 has lit another fire on the issue of Barney Kessel's Gibson custom 12-string mandolin and what was played on the Wouldn't It Be Nice session along with the photo of Barney with the mandolin which appeared in the first PS Sessions booklet.

The official Gibson model number is "A-50" ...for the record. There was some question on this for years.

I'm trying to catch my breath, forgive any rambling or typos. Some of us have been obsessed with this for years and it's a closure in one way, while bringing up other issues at the same time...and leading to some additional questions.

OK, for some background: We've been trying to figure all of this out for a long time, the question of what Barney played on the intro to Wouldn't It Be Nice. Search the archives on this board for more info, just search the term "Barney Kessel" or "Barney" and you'll get a full telling of the obsession and research that went into this. Long story short before the actual breaking news: After speaking with people directly involved in the Brian Wilson film "Love & Mercy", the story was that Barney's family was consulted and all signs pointed to a scene that happened in early '66 that resembled the photo in the PS booklet, in that Barney played this custom Gibson instrument that was tuned like a 12-string guitar, seated on a mandolin body and neck, which gave it the sound of playing a 12-string guitar above the 12th fret for that high register. It makes sense from a players' perspective. And the photo shows an instrument which would give exactly that sound.

However, for the film the choice was made to use another instrument, a 12-string Danelectro electric hybrid called a Bellzouki, for aesthetic reasons in that it looked more futuristic, and at the time of filming a mandolin as shown in the photo was not available to use. Again, this was firsthand information.

So all the research and consultation and the whole ball of wax as of 2014/15 said Barney played the hybrid mandolin on the session, but they went with another choice for the actor playing Barney in the film's WIBN session scene.



Ok...drum roll... :)

Barney Kessel's hybrid 12-string Gibson "WIBN" mandolin was just sold yesterday November 10th by Heritage Auctions as part of both Barney Kessel's and Tommy Tedesco's guitar collections being offered for sale, by the respective families and estates.

Wow.

And part of the provenance offered with these sales was the photo from the PS booklet showing Barney with the mando, as well as the history of Barney playing it on Brian's WIBN session in 1966.

For the first time, and trust me I've looked and called and emailed and searched for one...a full-size photo of that exact instrument has appeared.

Along with...and here's the fun stuff...yet *another* 12-string Gibson custom mandolin as owned and played by Tommy Tedesco! Same year, almost the same specs, etc. I did not know Tommy owned one, no less a companion to the one Barney owned and played.

So here's where the questions came flooding in after seeing this play out and seeing that the gavel fell on both of these sales for pretty hefty amounts. Bear with me:


This is the listing for Barney's Gibson mandolin, click on the link: https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vintage-guitars-and-musical-instruments/barney-kessel-s-1963-gibson-a-50-spec-12-sunburst-mandolin-serial-63002/a/7199-85090.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515 (https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vintage-guitars-and-musical-instruments/barney-kessel-s-1963-gibson-a-50-spec-12-sunburst-mandolin-serial-63002/a/7199-85090.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515)

And this is a full size photo of the Kessel  instrument, with the vintage photo we all know posted underneath:

(https://i.imgur.com/kLwzCTU.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CNl3XkR.jpg)


Now here is the listing for the Tommy Tedesco Gibson A-50 mandolin: https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vintage-guitars-and-musical-instruments/tommy-tedesco-s-1963-gibson-a-50-12-sunburst-mandolin-serial-62195/a/7199-85046.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515 (https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vintage-guitars-and-musical-instruments/tommy-tedesco-s-1963-gibson-a-50-12-sunburst-mandolin-serial-62195/a/7199-85046.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515)

Full size photo of the Tedesco instrument:

(https://i.imgur.com/3vSdMf5.jpg)




It stuck out immediately: The photo of Barney from the PS booklet appears to show him holding the instrument sold as the instrument owned by *Tommy Tedesco*. It's easy to spot, just look at the headstock in the 60's photo and you'll see the "Custom" plate and maybe some slightly different binding (?)...as seen on the Tommy Tedesco auction listing. The instrument in the Kessel listing did not have the "Custom" plate, however Barney could have simply taken off the Custom plate and replaced it with a plain one.

Putting it together, the photo from the PS box seems to be showing Barney playing Tommy Tedesco's mandolin, if there are indeed slight differences in the binding (which I cannot tell for sure) and if Barney did indeed replace that "Custom" headstock detail. That's the logical conclusion on the surface, by comparing the auction photos with the vintage session photo...

So there is that analysis on the surface. But who knows for sure.

And the fact that both Tommy's and Barney's A-50 Gibson mandolins are 100% acoustic, NOT electric...Perhaps more relevant to the issue of the WIBN session, as it sounds electric (Sounds can deceive, though).  And I see no signs of a pickup having been installed although that could have been possible with an old De'Armond or something...however it backs up the photo showing a boom mic stand and mic placed in front of Barney and the mandolin, which makes it an acoustic instrument.




Wow.

For the record, Barney's Gibson A-50 listed as the Wouldn't It Be Nice mandolin sold for $4,250 (US). Tommy's A-50 mandolin sold for $5,250 (US).  Those prices were not listed publicly.







Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on November 11, 2018, 12:43:08 PM
In the photo of the "Barney" mando, there appears to be a screw inserted in the middle of the Gibson logo...wonder why? Had it become necessary at some point in order to keep the faceplate on that headstock?


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 11, 2018, 01:46:53 PM
Just when you think the case is closed...This news of what happened yesterday November 10th '18 has lit another fire on the issue of Barney Kessel's Gibson custom 12-string mandolin and what was played on the Wouldn't It Be Nice session along with the photo of Barney with the mandolin which appeared in the first PS Sessions booklet.

The official Gibson model number is "A-50" ...for the record. There was some question on this for years.

I'm trying to catch my breath, forgive any rambling or typos. Some of us have been obsessed with this for years and it's a closure in one way, while bringing up other issues at the same time...and leading to some additional questions.

OK, for some background: We've been trying to figure all of this out for a long time, the question of what Barney played on the intro to Wouldn't It Be Nice. Search the archives on this board for more info, just search the term "Barney Kessel" or "Barney" and you'll get a full telling of the obsession and research that went into this. Long story short before the actual breaking news: After speaking with people directly involved in the Brian Wilson film "Love & Mercy", the story was that Barney's family was consulted and all signs pointed to a scene that happened in early '66 that resembled the photo in the PS booklet, in that Barney played this custom Gibson instrument that was tuned like a 12-string guitar, seated on a mandolin body and neck, which gave it the sound of playing a 12-string guitar above the 12th fret for that high register. It makes sense from a players' perspective. And the photo shows an instrument which would give exactly that sound.

However, for the film the choice was made to use another instrument, a 12-string Danelectro electric hybrid called a Bellzouki, for aesthetic reasons in that it looked more futuristic, and at the time of filming a mandolin as shown in the photo was not available to use. Again, this was firsthand information.

So all the research and consultation and the whole ball of wax as of 2014/15 said Barney played the hybrid mandolin on the session, but they went with another choice for the actor playing Barney in the film's WIBN session scene.



Ok...drum roll... :)

Barney Kessel's hybrid 12-string Gibson "WIBN" mandolin was just sold yesterday November 10th by Heritage Auctions as part of both Barney Kessel's and Tommy Tedesco's guitar collections being offered for sale, by the respective families and estates.

Wow.

And part of the provenance offered with these sales was the photo from the PS booklet showing Barney with the mando, as well as the history of Barney playing it on Brian's WIBN session in 1966.

For the first time, and trust me I've looked and called and emailed and searched for one...a full-size photo of that exact instrument has appeared.

Along with...and here's the fun stuff...yet *another* 12-string Gibson custom mandolin as owned and played by Tommy Tedesco! Same year, almost the same specs, etc. I did not know Tommy owned one, no less a companion to the one Barney owned and played.

So here's where the questions came flooding in after seeing this play out and seeing that the gavel fell on both of these sales for pretty hefty amounts. Bear with me:


This is the listing for Barney's Gibson mandolin, click on the link: https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vintage-guitars-and-musical-instruments/barney-kessel-s-1963-gibson-a-50-spec-12-sunburst-mandolin-serial-63002/a/7199-85090.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515 (https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vintage-guitars-and-musical-instruments/barney-kessel-s-1963-gibson-a-50-spec-12-sunburst-mandolin-serial-63002/a/7199-85090.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515)

And this is a full size photo of the Kessel  instrument, with the vintage photo we all know posted underneath:

(https://i.imgur.com/kLwzCTU.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CNl3XkR.jpg)


Now here is the listing for the Tommy Tedesco Gibson A-50 mandolin: https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vintage-guitars-and-musical-instruments/tommy-tedesco-s-1963-gibson-a-50-12-sunburst-mandolin-serial-62195/a/7199-85046.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515 (https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vintage-guitars-and-musical-instruments/tommy-tedesco-s-1963-gibson-a-50-12-sunburst-mandolin-serial-62195/a/7199-85046.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515)

Full size photo of the Tedesco instrument:

(https://i.imgur.com/3vSdMf5.jpg)




It stuck out immediately: The photo of Barney from the PS booklet appears to show him holding the instrument sold as the instrument owned by *Tommy Tedesco*. It's easy to spot, just look at the headstock in the 60's photo and you'll see the "Custom" plate and maybe some slightly different binding (?)...as seen on the Tommy Tedesco auction listing. The instrument in the Kessel listing did not have the "Custom" plate, however Barney could have simply taken off the Custom plate and replaced it with a plain one.

Putting it together, the photo from the PS box seems to be showing Barney playing Tommy Tedesco's mandolin, if there are indeed slight differences in the binding (which I cannot tell for sure) and if Barney did indeed replace that "Custom" headstock detail. That's the logical conclusion on the surface, by comparing the auction photos with the vintage session photo...

So there is that analysis on the surface. But who knows for sure.

And the fact that both Tommy's and Barney's A-50 Gibson mandolins are 100% acoustic, NOT electric...Perhaps more relevant to the issue of the WIBN session, as it sounds electric (Sounds can deceive, though).  And I see no signs of a pickup having been installed although that could have been possible with an old De'Armond or something...however it backs up the photo showing a boom mic stand and mic placed in front of Barney and the mandolin, which makes it an acoustic instrument.




Wow.

For the record, Barney's Gibson A-50 listed as the Wouldn't It Be Nice mandolin sold for $4,250 (US). Tommy's A-50 mandolin sold for $5,250 (US).  Those prices were not listed publicly.







 Amazing info. Thanks GF!


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 11, 2018, 04:24:22 PM
Like most of these happenings, there is more to the story. Since I posted I'm seeing info that totally flew under the radar, unless others remember seeing this same instrument offered for sale earlier this year on Reverb.com.  ???

So yes, Barney's 12-string custom "WIBN" mandolin was offered for sale earlier this year on reverb.com by a very reputable vintage guitar dealer in California. What was a bit misleading is how the Heritage auction listing said the instrument was consigned directly by Barney's widow, yet in the past year it was listed and according to the original Reverb listing, was sold by another broker. So did Mrs. Kessel consign it to the broker, who then listed it with Heritage Auctions? Not a big deal, but ignorant of that previous listing and sale through the broker, I thought the Heritage auction from yesterday was the *first* time this instrument had been offered for sale publicly.

Anyway...

From that original online listing by the dealer on Reverb, it seems that the truss rod cover was indeed a Gibson replacement. Why it needed to be replaced, or what happened to it, is anyone's guess. It's a 55-year-old instrument that was in regular use by one of the premier session guitarists in Hollywood. Again from the site listing, one strip of the tuning machines had been replaced as well, post-65. So maybe the instrument was at some point damaged, or those plastic parts deteriorated with age as they sometimes do.

So I take back what I was thinking about the "Barney" guitar versus the "Tommy" guitar and that famous session photo.

What I missed in the excitement of yesterday's auction was looking closer at the photo of the back of Barney's mando, where Barney etched his name and SSN. Sure enough, it's there. The difference in the "Custom" truss rod cover/plate as seen in both the original PS sessions photo and Tommy's A-50 mando versus the photo of Barney's in the Heritage listing can be attributed to that original cover being replaced. Simple as that, and it was listed in the broker's sale details/description from earlier but not prominent in the Heritage listing. Also shown more prominently was a repair done to the metal tailpiece, which had broken and come apart from the tension of the 12 strings (happened to one of my guitars with a floating bridge too...I got a replacement tailpiece...not uncommon).

So here is that original listing on reverb.com with more photos including the PS booklet shot: https://reverb.com/item/11611411-gibson-a-50-special-1963-sunburst (https://reverb.com/item/11611411-gibson-a-50-special-1963-sunburst)

I'm thinking this earlier sale escaped notice originally because that broker did not mention Kessel or the importance of this instrument (or rarity) in the listing's headline. If I were browsing, I'd see a Gibson A-50 mandolin from 1963 listed and think it was run-of-the-mill. In the description, which I'm guessing may not have triggered in search engines as readily with the Kessel connection, the description spells it out.

Sorry for any confusion...I'm still trying to sort all this stuff out and revisit some issues I haven't thought as much about for 6-7 years or so.

Hopefully as much accurate info as is on the table after the auction yesterday  has been offered here for those interested.


Now the question: This is an acoustic instrument. The intro to WIBN sounds electric. Was it just recorded "hot" at a high level coming in from the mic? Was there at some point a pickup attached to this instrument to amplify it? Or has it been our ears playing tricks on us all these years to where an acoustic mandolin was made to sound electric somehow through the recording and mixing?

Time to pull out those session tapes again. Because I hear that part as it has been described, an electric instrument going direct into the board through a preamp with effects added.

Or are we back to square one despite all the research and confirmations of the past years?

PS...The earlier sale if the site is reporting the actual sale price saw Barney's mandolin going for more than what it sold for at Heritage yesterday. If someone invested in this at the listed price earlier this year then consigned it to Heritage, they lost money.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on November 11, 2018, 05:55:59 PM
Notice also how Barney's mando has a slightly longer neck than Tommy's...all the better for which to play the "WIBN" intro...


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 12, 2018, 07:30:31 AM
On this hybrid mandolin instrument or a mandolin in general, you wouldn't need the extended range to play the WIBN intro.  :)

As soon as I figured out how to play it on a mandolin tuned in standard mandolin tuning, and heard how it sounded, it started to make sense. It's all in the lower positions.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on November 12, 2018, 08:06:08 AM
On this hybrid mandolin instrument or a mandolin in general, you wouldn't need the extended range to play the WIBN intro.  :)

As soon as I figured out how to play it on a mandolin tuned in standard mandolin tuning, and heard how it sounded, it started to make sense. It's all in the lower positions.

Yeah, but Barney's mando was tuned to standard guitar tuning for WIBN (according to the determinations of Maggie and aeijtzsche on a previous thread here):

Maggie posted this: "the WIBN intro is clearly a course-stringed instrument (you can hear the notes beating slightly with themselves) so Kessel's 12-string mandolin-body guitar (tuned EADGBE rather than in reverse as a normal mandolin would be, and pitched an octave higher than a normal guitar) is an obvious candidate."

To which aeijtzsche replied: "Barney's would've had to have been, weirdly enough, pitched identically to a 12-string guitar.  Why someone would do that, who knows.  But when he noodles between takes you can hear him tuning, which gives it away."  Meaning, the high string courses (high pitch-wise) are doubles, the low string courses (low pitch-wise) are octaves, and again, it's EADGBE instead of the opposite.

FWIW, it's been years, but at one point I sat down and learned how to play the WIBN intro from a guitar tablature book of Beach Boys songs. I used a 6-string electric, but I recall that the positioning was fairly high on the neck (can't say which frets from memory, and don't have the book handy - been looking for it for days now!).


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 12, 2018, 08:33:58 AM
On this hybrid mandolin instrument or a mandolin in general, you wouldn't need the extended range to play the WIBN intro.  :)

As soon as I figured out how to play it on a mandolin tuned in standard mandolin tuning, and heard how it sounded, it started to make sense. It's all in the lower positions.

Yeah, but Barney's mando was tuned to standard guitar tuning for WIBN (according to the determinations of Maggie and aeijtzsche on a previous thread here):

Maggie posted this: "the WIBN intro is clearly a course-stringed instrument (you can hear the notes beating slightly with themselves) so Kessel's 12-string mandolin-body guitar (tuned EADGBE rather than in reverse as a normal mandolin would be, and pitched an octave higher than a normal guitar) is an obvious candidate."

To which aeijtzsche replied: "Barney's would've had to have been, weirdly enough, pitched identically to a 12-string guitar.  Why someone would do that, who knows.  But when he noodles between takes you can hear him tuning, which gives it away."  Meaning, the high string courses (high pitch-wise) are doubles, the low string courses (low pitch-wise) are octaves, and again, it's EADGBE instead of the opposite.

FWIW, it's been years, but at one point I sat down and learned how to play the WIBN intro from a guitar tablature book of Beach Boys songs. I used a 6-string electric, but I recall that the positioning was fairly high on the neck (can't say which frets from memory, and don't have the book handy - been looking for it for days now!).


I disagree with my friend H on this one. The whole point of having those mandolins shown above is to play mandolin parts and read mando parts using standard guitar tuning, while getting the authentic mandolin sound. The characteristic sound of the mandolin is how it's up an octave from guitar, and with the extremely short scale of that neck combined with the doubled sets of each string, those strings are tuned very tight. So it's that high pitched, high-tension sound but tuned like a guitar.

Notice on the Reverb.com listing, the detail of the tailpiece repair is shown. This is common, and would be more common with the tension involved in tuning not just 8 strings (standard mando) but *12* with that much tension. So Barney's tailpiece did indeed split and separate and needed to be repaired.

If you tuned either Barney's or Tommy's custom mandolins down to the range of a standard guitar, the strings would be so slack it would be impossible to fret a note on those lower strings. There would be no tension at all.

Those are tuned up like a mandolin, very tight when tuned, and that's possibly why Barney's tailpiece broke due to that tension, especially if it was kept tuned tight for an extended period of time.


I've gotten the intro down perfectly (if I may say so  :) ) on electric 12 and standard. The whole key to getting it just right (as heard on the track, never mind the hundreds of live recordings) is to hold out the chord shapes of those arpeggios and let the notes sustain and ring into each other as long as possible. Start by laying your index finger on the 14th fret, G and B strings, as if you were doing an A major chord then changing a B minor triad shape and it's all there. I could post it if I get the time.

But those mandolins - It wouldn't be possible to play if they were tuned in the same range as a guitar.

Whatever is on the session tapes, I'll have to listen again. Like I said, despite all the research and confirms maybe it's back to the ol' drawing board.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 17, 2018, 06:58:02 PM
This is really great!

But yeah, you can hear both intro instruments playing below what the natural range of an octave-12 tuned guitar on the session tape.

Also, neither of these two photos show the instruments having the lower 3 or 4 courses tuned in octaves--they're all unison-tuned, which is not like the WIBN intro.

Also, in my opinion there's just no way the intro was recorded with a mic.  For one, the player is without question in the booth, and it seems obvious by listening to how things go when the talkback is activated that the instrument is direct into the board.

So--yes--what does this mean?  Could it be that this thing wasn't used on WIBN after all?  I do think it was used on I Know There's an Answer, where it makes more sense.  I think a similar instrument was used on Sloop John B, too!


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 19, 2018, 09:30:37 AM
I've had to divide this discovery into a few different issues, because my head is still spinning to be honest!

First, there is the fact that this instrument as seen in that familiar studio photo has finally surfaced, not only that but also it was auctioned off along with basically the same instrument as owned and played by Tommy Tedesco. For a long time, it wasn't possible to even find another example of this type of instrument from Gibson, or even have an official company model name for what it was. Now we do, and not just that but we have Barney's exact instrument as proven by his name carved into the back of the headstock. So that's a great development - That exact instrument has been found.

PS - I'm still amazed this instrument surfaced earlier in a guitar broker's online sale listing and totally flew under our collective radars for months until this recent auction.

Now to the real conundrum mixed with a mystery mixed with a possible contradiction...and the ramifications may or may not already be hitting depending on the info chain.


The issue is now that one of the most prominent auction houses in the world just sold this instrument as *the instrument* played on Wouldn't It Be Nice, and prior to that a very respected, long-time vintage guitar dealer listed it the same way. The provenance of the sales included not just the authentication from Barney's widow and the Kessel estate, but also the attached history to the WIBN session. As people may or may not know, these things are not done without extensive research and authentication, and a provenance is not attached to a sale (which ostensibly raises the value of a historical item with those connections) without much effort being put into saying "This is the one..." and being able to back it up. Otherwise the entire world of auctions surrounding celebrity or historical items would be a shambles in terms of verification and authentication.

So on the table we have Barney's family and estate, the original guitar dealer, a prominent auction house, and excerpts from Brian Wilson's various book quotes and whatnot combined with those involved in the set design and props for his film biography saying this is what Barney played.

Yet it feels like we're back to square one regarding what is heard on the tapes.

I'm up for reopening the issues on those tapes and digging in. As in, time permitting, getting exact track times and sources as the evidence of the sounds we're referring to. Because the final, released mixes have two stringed instrument parts, very closely arranged and played and washed in reverb, to where some fine details get buried in the overall soundscape.

There is a contradiction staring us in the collective face and it seems to have reopened the discussion rather than closing it.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 19, 2018, 09:44:18 AM
Just for a comparison to hear what it sounds like on a traditionally tuned mandolin, I did this quick take on a cel phone video with my mandolin (again, tuned traditionally G-D-A-E) in "open position". With the traditional mando tuning, you can't get the same sustain on specific strings of those chord shapes but you can still hear the timbre of the instrument playing the patterns - I tried my best to get the one note with sounds fluffed-muted on the original released take. I would have tuned it like Tommy and Barney, in "guitar tuning", but to do so I would need to replace the D strings with a much lighter gauge in order to tune it up to the note G like a guitar tuning, and that's not something I wanted to do for a 9 second video. And I didn't want my tailpiece to split like Barney's.  ;D

Not a tutorial, but just an example to hear it played on a short-scale mandolin in open position with the tight non-octave strings compared to playing it on a 12-string guitar at the 14th fret and above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsex0R93Qhc&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsex0R93Qhc&feature=youtu.be)


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Jay on November 20, 2018, 12:06:28 AM
I'm actually amazed that the instruments sold for as cheap as they did. Maybe I'm being to unrealistic, but considering the history I would have expected six figures. Were I a family member or holder of the estate I'd be almost insulted.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 30, 2018, 07:04:02 AM
Incidentally, if anybody has $650 burning a hole in their pocket, instruments like Barney's are on the market:

https://goldtonemusicgroup.com/goldtone/instruments/f-12 (https://goldtonemusicgroup.com/goldtone/instruments/f-12)

The one currently available is an F-style, but Goldtone made A-style ones too that are still to be had.  If I weren't destitute, I would surely buy one.

(https://gtmgstaticfiles-nbzlbgytj5azbyp7y4yu.netdna-ssl.com/img/goldtone/products/1132/1-front.jpg)


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 30, 2018, 07:05:50 AM
Also:

I fully intend to do an annotated session transcript with timings to attempt to prove that whatever instrument is playing the intro is tuned such that an octave guitar tuning in unison courses would not be a possibility.  Might be a few more days though!


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on November 30, 2018, 10:28:52 AM
Also:

I fully intend to do an annotated session transcript with timings to attempt to prove that whatever instrument is playing the intro is tuned such that an octave guitar tuning in unison courses would not be a possibility.  Might be a few more days though!

Sure, but what if Barney's instrument was actually strung with guitar strings, at least on the octave courses, and at least for the WIBN session? In that case, I imagine it would be possible to tune it like a 12-string guitar, right? Regardless of how the thing is strung now (quite likely it was restrung with mandolin strings at some point before being sold).


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on November 30, 2018, 10:48:10 AM
Also:

I fully intend to do an annotated session transcript with timings to attempt to prove that whatever instrument is playing the intro is tuned such that an octave guitar tuning in unison courses would not be a possibility.  Might be a few more days though!

Sure, but what if Barney's instrument was actually strung with guitar strings, at least on the octave courses, and at least for the WIBN session? In that case, I imagine it would be possible to tune it like a 12-string guitar, right? Regardless of how the thing is strung now (quite likely it was restrung with mandolin strings at some point before being sold).

Well, that is sort of what I had been assuming this whole time.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 30, 2018, 08:58:53 PM
Also:

I fully intend to do an annotated session transcript with timings to attempt to prove that whatever instrument is playing the intro is tuned such that an octave guitar tuning in unison courses would not be a possibility.  Might be a few more days though!

Sure, but what if Barney's instrument was actually strung with guitar strings, at least on the octave courses, and at least for the WIBN session? In that case, I imagine it would be possible to tune it like a 12-string guitar, right? Regardless of how the thing is strung now (quite likely it was restrung with mandolin strings at some point before being sold).

Well, that is sort of what I had been assuming this whole time.

Can I ask a serious question? Did either of you read what I wrote or watch the video where I played this intro on an actual mandolin to compare the sounds which would be possible with acoustic mandolin? I'm out of this deal after this statement...unless you've tried to string a short scale mandolin with a 12 string guitar set, then tune it in the same range as a standard 12 string guitar, take my word on this...It cannot be done.

Or just ignore all of it and all that has been said already and try it yourself. You'll see after trying to string a low e guitar string and actually fret a note on a short scale instrument how it's a fools errand...but dont take my word for it. Please.



Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 01, 2018, 07:32:01 AM
Also:

I fully intend to do an annotated session transcript with timings to attempt to prove that whatever instrument is playing the intro is tuned such that an octave guitar tuning in unison courses would not be a possibility.  Might be a few more days though!

Sure, but what if Barney's instrument was actually strung with guitar strings, at least on the octave courses, and at least for the WIBN session? In that case, I imagine it would be possible to tune it like a 12-string guitar, right? Regardless of how the thing is strung now (quite likely it was restrung with mandolin strings at some point before being sold).

Well, that is sort of what I had been assuming this whole time.

Can I ask a serious question? Did either of you read what I wrote or watch the video where I played this intro on an actual mandolin to compare the sounds which would be possible with acoustic mandolin? I'm out of this deal after this statement...unless you've tried to string a short scale mandolin with a 12 string guitar set, then tune it in the same range as a standard 12 string guitar, take my word on this...It cannot be done.

Or just ignore all of it and all that has been said already and try it yourself. You'll see after trying to string a low e guitar string and actually fret a note on a short scale instrument how it's a fools errand...but dont take my word for it. Please.




I did once tune one of my mandolins down/up to the DGBE of a standard guitar when I was about to put new strings on.  I admit it wasn't a beautiful sound, but I assumed that with a slightly longer scale instrument it could sort of "work" with the right gauges, for the purposes of one song.

That being said, I concede it's an inopportune way to do it.  I assumed this was the case because it is the least convoluted explanation for both the unusual sound and the fact that the instrument plays below the range of what a guitar would be at the octave.

But maybe the actual simplest answer is that it wasn't this particular instrument on the WIBN intro.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 01, 2018, 07:07:46 PM
So, arguendo, as it were, here's a vid of me playing the intro on my standard issue mandolin, tuned DGBE at guitar pitch.  Again, I'm not saying this is definitive proof or anything close--only that it is not completely outside the realm of possibility.  With a slightly longer scale, and doing some math on string gauges for the upper octaves, I imagine you could come up with something that would have "worked" on Barney's deal.

Anyway, for your consideration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r1JTvouLNY&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r1JTvouLNY&feature=youtu.be)

Note how hard it is to squeeze the fingers in up there.  And also that I am not Barney Kessel.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 01, 2018, 08:05:02 PM
Friends.  There's something else that nobody is talking about.

Look at this photo from the auction:

(https://dyn1.heritagestatic.com/lf?set=path%5B1%2F9%2F4%2F5%2F0%2F19450876%5D%2Csizedata%5B850x600%5D&call=url%5Bfile%3Aproduct.chain%5D)

It's wider angle--but they freakin' blurred out the rest!  Anybody feel like trying to contact them for the unblurred image?


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: JK on December 02, 2018, 07:02:03 AM
What a pity if this fascinating topic were to grind to a halt now, H. Hopefully both Craigs will chime in again soon. ;)


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 02, 2018, 11:10:39 AM
For even more perspective, I went ahead and changed out one of the ersatz g-strings with a much lighter gauge string and put it at the octave, to be like how the WIBN instrument (whatever it may be) is tuned.

I recorded it, and played the other guitar part with the same mandolin, (although I'm 99% sure the lower instrument is just a 12-string guitar on the original. )  I added reverb and such, as you do, to make it a little more contextual.

What do you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3oeYMfDQo&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3oeYMfDQo&feature=youtu.be)


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: branaa09 on December 02, 2018, 05:52:48 PM
While we have this discussion open, can we talk about another Mandolin filled song? Do You Wanna Dance? Now Craig confirmed it is a Mandolin on the Basic Track and it was Overdubbed later to Double it. Was Billy Strange playing a regular Mandolin or one of these Hybrids? It almost sounds like a Guitar more than Mandolin. Was it close miked or through Direct Injection? Just curious, as this Topic maybe me think about it today. Oh and yes you can hear Barney's Mandolin clear as day on the Session tape. He is louder than Jerry's 12-String Guitar. You tell that's a 12-String Guitar underneath Barney's Mandolin. Maybe Brian or Larry Levine added some compression to Barney's Mandolin, to dampen the sound, so it isn't as fiddly.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: JK on December 04, 2018, 01:41:22 AM
While we have this discussion open,

I really don't understand why the OP has abandoned his topic. Let's hope he and c-man look in again soon.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 04, 2018, 10:13:38 AM
While we have this discussion open,

I really don't understand why the OP has abandoned his topic. Let's hope he and c-man look in again soon.

Well, the OP states he is done with this thread, as he's made up his mind - not necessarily on what the mystery WIBN instrument is, but rather on what it isn't. As for me, I do have more to contribute, and will be doing so soon. It won't be conclusive (nothing short of photo stills or live action film that is verifiably from the WIBN session will ever be that), but simply more evidence to bolster the argument that it is the Mando-guitar we're hearing.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 04, 2018, 10:26:59 AM
While we have this discussion open,

I really don't understand why the OP has abandoned his topic. Let's hope he and c-man look in again soon.

Well, the OP states he is done with this thread, as he's made up his mind - not necessarily on what the mystery WIBN instrument is, but rather on what it isn't. As for me, I do have more to contribute, and will be doing so soon. It won't be conclusive (nothing short of photo stills or live action film that is verifiably from the WIBN session will ever be that), but simply more evidence to bolster the argument that it is the Mando-guitar we're hearing.

Looking forward to it.  After my retuning experiment, I am more convinced than ever it's the mando-guitar.  To me the outstanding questions are how was it tuned and how was it plugged in.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 04, 2018, 10:49:35 AM
While we have this discussion open,

I really don't understand why the OP has abandoned his topic. Let's hope he and c-man look in again soon.

Well, the OP states he is done with this thread, as he's made up his mind - not necessarily on what the mystery WIBN instrument is, but rather on what it isn't. As for me, I do have more to contribute, and will be doing so soon. It won't be conclusive (nothing short of photo stills or live action film that is verifiably from the WIBN session will ever be that), but simply more evidence to bolster the argument that it is the Mando-guitar we're hearing.

Looking forward to it.  After my retuning experiment, I am more convinced than ever it's the mando-guitar.  To me the outstanding questions are how was it tuned and how was it plugged in.

I have to clarify this: It reached a point for me where it felt like the known parameters and realities of playing and tuning such an instrument were being stretched beyond practical reality of what these sessions would have been like. And, moreso, why such an instrument would be made and played by the likes of Barney and Tommy in the first place. It was quite simply to give these heavy hitters a practical and easy way to deliver a mandolin part on a session while reading the part and playing it as if it were a standard guitar. It's the same as the 6-string banjo as played by everyone from Neil Young to Taylor Swift to Joe Satriani - It's tuned EADGBE just like a guitar and can be played with guitar shapes and chords, but it sounds like a banjo minus the different tuning. It's Tommy Tedesco's "Plectrum Tuning" concept where he'd have several dozen exotic string instruments and have them tuned like a guitar so he could read the parts fast and easy on these sessions.

I bowed out of the speculation because ultimately this mando-guitar is a tool designed to make the job easier. As in...Tune it EADGBE like a guitar but with the mandolin string setup in doubles.

My issue is you would not have such a tool to use and play it above the 12th fret. It is designed to play in that range on a guitar that sounds above the 12th fret (up an octave) without dealing with tiny frets and shoddy/spotty intonation. Even great mandolins, well-made instruments get dodgy above the 12th fret. So why would Barney or Tommy have a tool to make these parts easier to play in open position then tune down an octave and have to play it in a range where the instrument isn't as reliable or doesn't sound as good?

They wouldn't.

Which is why I totally disagree that Barney would have restrung this mando-guitar with guitar strings, tuned it down an octave, and played it up above the 12th fret. It just defies practical logic to think that's what he'd do when the part can be played "open position" with a lot more fluidity and sustain.

I compared it in my mind to seeing a block of wood with a nail hammered in. The most logical thought would be that someone hammered in the nail with a hammer. To take it further and say what if he used the wooden handle of the hammer, or what if he used a rock, or what if he used his shoe or anything else gets away from the fact we have a wooden block with a nail hammered in. And 99.9% of the time it was done with a tool that was made to do that job with as little jiggering and modification as possible because there are tools made to do that job.

I was told firsthand about the Kessel family's involvement in the film and the saga of this instrument. We saw a premier auction house and a respected long-time guitar dealer take it public via sales and auctions with the provenance and authentication attached that this was the instrument heard on WIBN.

The conflict for me was recalling the session tapes and also frustratingly not remembering some of the chatter and sounds on all of them from 10 years ago or more when I was into them head-first. The discussions here made me second guess things, which can be good as well as frustrating because for all intents and purposes I thought it was case closed.

All I'd ask is that the most simple and direct line to get from point A to point B be considered more heavily than trying to suggest Barney would restring and retune this instrument to where playing it became much more difficult if not impossible and would defeat the purpose of having such an instrument in the first place.


Postscript: "Amplifying" the acoustic mando-guitar could be as easy as dropping a D'Armond old-school pickup on it just as upright bassists, acoustic guitarists, John Cale with his viola, and many others did in the 50's and 60's to amplify an acoustic string instrument. It would not need to be permanently attached or drilled into the top either.

But I'd check the session tapes and hear when and how the players voices come through (I seriously cannot remember the tapes enough) the mix. If the guitarists playing the intro are heard on the studio floor, or one of them is talking, then they had something mic'ed. If they're only heard on the talkback, they're obviously in the booth direct. That's as simple a test as can be done. If you hear Barney on the studio floor or hear Barney talking at all, he was mic'ed.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 04, 2018, 11:03:37 AM
While we have this discussion open,

I really don't understand why the OP has abandoned his topic. Let's hope he and c-man look in again soon.

Well, the OP states he is done with this thread, as he's made up his mind - not necessarily on what the mystery WIBN instrument is, but rather on what it isn't. As for me, I do have more to contribute, and will be doing so soon. It won't be conclusive (nothing short of photo stills or live action film that is verifiably from the WIBN session will ever be that), but simply more evidence to bolster the argument that it is the Mando-guitar we're hearing.

Looking forward to it.  After my retuning experiment, I am more convinced than ever it's the mando-guitar.  To me the outstanding questions are how was it tuned and how was it plugged in.

I have to clarify this: It reached a point for me where it felt like the known parameters and realities of playing and tuning such an instrument were being stretched beyond practical reality of what these sessions would have been like. And, moreso, why such an instrument would be made and played by the likes of Barney and Tommy in the first place. It was quite simply to give these heavy hitters a practical and easy way to deliver a mandolin part on a session while reading the part and playing it as if it were a standard guitar. It's the same as the 6-string banjo as played by everyone from Neil Young to Taylor Swift to Joe Satriani - It's tuned EADGBE just like a guitar and can be played with guitar shapes and chords, but it sounds like a banjo minus the different tuning. It's Tommy Tedesco's "Plectrum Tuning" concept where he'd have several dozen exotic string instruments and have them tuned like a guitar so he could read the parts fast and easy on these sessions.

I bowed out of the speculation because ultimately this mando-guitar is a tool designed to make the job easier. As in...Tune it EADGBE like a guitar but with the mandolin string setup in doubles.

My issue is you would not have such a tool to use and play it above the 12th fret. It is designed to play in that range on a guitar that sounds above the 12th fret (up an octave) without dealing with tiny frets and shoddy/spotty intonation. Even great mandolins, well-made instruments get dodgy above the 12th fret. So why would Barney or Tommy have a tool to make these parts easier to play in open position then tune down an octave and have to play it in a range where the instrument isn't as reliable or doesn't sound as good?

They wouldn't.

Which is why I totally disagree that Barney would have restrung this mando-guitar with guitar strings, tuned it down an octave, and played it up above the 12th fret. It just defies practical logic to think that's what he'd do when the part can be played "open position" with a lot more fluidity and sustain.

I compared it in my mind to seeing a block of wood with a nail hammered in. The most logical thought would be that someone hammered in the nail with a hammer. To take it further and say what if he used the wooden handle of the hammer, or what if he used a rock, or what if he used his shoe or anything else gets away from the fact we have a wooden block with a nail hammered in. And 99.9% of the time it was done with a tool that was made to do that job with as little jiggering and modification as possible because there are tools made to do that job.

I was told firsthand about the Kessel family's involvement in the film and the saga of this instrument. We saw a premier auction house and a respected long-time guitar dealer take it public via sales and auctions with the provenance and authentication attached that this was the instrument heard on WIBN.

The conflict for me was recalling the session tapes and also frustratingly not remembering some of the chatter and sounds on all of them from 10 years ago or more when I was into them head-first. The discussions here made me second guess things, which can be good as well as frustrating because for all intents and purposes I thought it was case closed.

All I'd ask is that the most simple and direct line to get from point A to point B be considered more heavily than trying to suggest Barney would restring and retune this instrument to where playing it became much more difficult if not impossible and would defeat the purpose of having such an instrument in the first place.


Postscript: "Amplifying" the acoustic mando-guitar could be as easy as dropping a D'Armond old-school pickup on it just as upright bassists, acoustic guitarists, John Cale with his viola, and many others did in the 50's and 60's to amplify an acoustic string instrument. It would not need to be permanently attached or drilled into the top either.

But I'd check the session tapes and hear when and how the players voices come through (I seriously cannot remember the tapes enough) the mix. If the guitarists playing the intro are heard on the studio floor, or one of them is talking, then they had something mic'ed. If they're only heard on the talkback, they're obviously in the booth direct. That's as simple a test as can be done. If you hear Barney on the studio floor or hear Barney talking at all, he was mic'ed.

Craig, did you watch either of my videos where I tuned my mando down to guitar pitch?  All it took was changing one string out, and as I showed, it is possible to play that way.  I agree-it's nutty.  But then again, so is plucking piano strings with paper clips, putting masking tape on piano strings, making accordion players triple-bellow shake, finding a marxophone to record, or Swedish Frog.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 04, 2018, 11:14:39 AM
While we have this discussion open,

I really don't understand why the OP has abandoned his topic. Let's hope he and c-man look in again soon.

Well, the OP states he is done with this thread, as he's made up his mind - not necessarily on what the mystery WIBN instrument is, but rather on what it isn't. As for me, I do have more to contribute, and will be doing so soon. It won't be conclusive (nothing short of photo stills or live action film that is verifiably from the WIBN session will ever be that), but simply more evidence to bolster the argument that it is the Mando-guitar we're hearing.

Looking forward to it.  After my retuning experiment, I am more convinced than ever it's the mando-guitar.  To me the outstanding questions are how was it tuned and how was it plugged in.

I have to clarify this: It reached a point for me where it felt like the known parameters and realities of playing and tuning such an instrument were being stretched beyond practical reality of what these sessions would have been like. And, moreso, why such an instrument would be made and played by the likes of Barney and Tommy in the first place. It was quite simply to give these heavy hitters a practical and easy way to deliver a mandolin part on a session while reading the part and playing it as if it were a standard guitar. It's the same as the 6-string banjo as played by everyone from Neil Young to Taylor Swift to Joe Satriani - It's tuned EADGBE just like a guitar and can be played with guitar shapes and chords, but it sounds like a banjo minus the different tuning. It's Tommy Tedesco's "Plectrum Tuning" concept where he'd have several dozen exotic string instruments and have them tuned like a guitar so he could read the parts fast and easy on these sessions.

I bowed out of the speculation because ultimately this mando-guitar is a tool designed to make the job easier. As in...Tune it EADGBE like a guitar but with the mandolin string setup in doubles.

My issue is you would not have such a tool to use and play it above the 12th fret. It is designed to play in that range on a guitar that sounds above the 12th fret (up an octave) without dealing with tiny frets and shoddy/spotty intonation. Even great mandolins, well-made instruments get dodgy above the 12th fret. So why would Barney or Tommy have a tool to make these parts easier to play in open position then tune down an octave and have to play it in a range where the instrument isn't as reliable or doesn't sound as good?

They wouldn't.

Which is why I totally disagree that Barney would have restrung this mando-guitar with guitar strings, tuned it down an octave, and played it up above the 12th fret. It just defies practical logic to think that's what he'd do when the part can be played "open position" with a lot more fluidity and sustain.

I compared it in my mind to seeing a block of wood with a nail hammered in. The most logical thought would be that someone hammered in the nail with a hammer. To take it further and say what if he used the wooden handle of the hammer, or what if he used a rock, or what if he used his shoe or anything else gets away from the fact we have a wooden block with a nail hammered in. And 99.9% of the time it was done with a tool that was made to do that job with as little jiggering and modification as possible because there are tools made to do that job.

I was told firsthand about the Kessel family's involvement in the film and the saga of this instrument. We saw a premier auction house and a respected long-time guitar dealer take it public via sales and auctions with the provenance and authentication attached that this was the instrument heard on WIBN.

The conflict for me was recalling the session tapes and also frustratingly not remembering some of the chatter and sounds on all of them from 10 years ago or more when I was into them head-first. The discussions here made me second guess things, which can be good as well as frustrating because for all intents and purposes I thought it was case closed.

All I'd ask is that the most simple and direct line to get from point A to point B be considered more heavily than trying to suggest Barney would restring and retune this instrument to where playing it became much more difficult if not impossible and would defeat the purpose of having such an instrument in the first place.


Postscript: "Amplifying" the acoustic mando-guitar could be as easy as dropping a D'Armond old-school pickup on it just as upright bassists, acoustic guitarists, John Cale with his viola, and many others did in the 50's and 60's to amplify an acoustic string instrument. It would not need to be permanently attached or drilled into the top either.

But I'd check the session tapes and hear when and how the players voices come through (I seriously cannot remember the tapes enough) the mix. If the guitarists playing the intro are heard on the studio floor, or one of them is talking, then they had something mic'ed. If they're only heard on the talkback, they're obviously in the booth direct. That's as simple a test as can be done. If you hear Barney on the studio floor or hear Barney talking at all, he was mic'ed.

Craig, did you watch either of my videos where I tuned my mando down to guitar pitch?  All it took was changing one string out, and as I showed, it is possible to play that way.  I agree-it's nutty.  But then again, so is plucking piano strings with paper clips, putting masking tape on piano strings, making accordion players triple-bellow shake, finding a marxophone to record, or Swedish Frog.

Did you watch my video where the intro was played verbatim on a standard mandolin in mandolin tuning and it sounded (even acoustic) very, very close to the tones on the original minus the studio effects? If it can be done on a regular mandolin, and sound pretty close, why would a busy player like Barney restring his for one session lasting a few hours when the same part can be done if he had it tuned as the instrument came from the factory, which is the whole point of getting such an instrument?

The difference in the examples is that the bellows-shake was a standard part of playing accordion that any pro players would be proficient at doing. Is it common? No - But it is a standard playing technique for accordion players. No physical modification to the instrument is necessary. Putting tape on piano strings is just a way to dampen them - Not even getting into "prepared piano" compositions such as John Cage putting nuts and bolts on the strings to vibrate and produce new sounds several decades before this. The paperclip was Brian and Tony Asher experimenting - No modification necessary beyond bending the paperclip perhaps, and not done with over a dozen musicians working on the clock as they experimented.

And Barney would probably have not modified this mandolin specifically for one "teen" session with Brian by changing strings then changing them back. The phrase "time is money" comes to mind. And the fact that Barney was one of those original LA session players who still looked down on these rock-pop sessions and thought of them as a good way to make money versus actually being emotionally tied into the music as he was with jazz. It was a gig. I doubt Brian would ask him to restring any of his instruments for a 3 or 4 hour session, and I doubt Barney in early 1966 would have done it for one session.

Which returns back to the most logical assumption, that he played it "open" on the instrument tuned as it was built to be tuned with mandolin strings tuned in EADGBE guitar tuning.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 04, 2018, 11:27:13 AM
While we have this discussion open,

I really don't understand why the OP has abandoned his topic. Let's hope he and c-man look in again soon.

Well, the OP states he is done with this thread, as he's made up his mind - not necessarily on what the mystery WIBN instrument is, but rather on what it isn't. As for me, I do have more to contribute, and will be doing so soon. It won't be conclusive (nothing short of photo stills or live action film that is verifiably from the WIBN session will ever be that), but simply more evidence to bolster the argument that it is the Mando-guitar we're hearing.

Looking forward to it.  After my retuning experiment, I am more convinced than ever it's the mando-guitar.  To me the outstanding questions are how was it tuned and how was it plugged in.

I have to clarify this: It reached a point for me where it felt like the known parameters and realities of playing and tuning such an instrument were being stretched beyond practical reality of what these sessions would have been like. And, moreso, why such an instrument would be made and played by the likes of Barney and Tommy in the first place. It was quite simply to give these heavy hitters a practical and easy way to deliver a mandolin part on a session while reading the part and playing it as if it were a standard guitar. It's the same as the 6-string banjo as played by everyone from Neil Young to Taylor Swift to Joe Satriani - It's tuned EADGBE just like a guitar and can be played with guitar shapes and chords, but it sounds like a banjo minus the different tuning. It's Tommy Tedesco's "Plectrum Tuning" concept where he'd have several dozen exotic string instruments and have them tuned like a guitar so he could read the parts fast and easy on these sessions.

I bowed out of the speculation because ultimately this mando-guitar is a tool designed to make the job easier. As in...Tune it EADGBE like a guitar but with the mandolin string setup in doubles.

My issue is you would not have such a tool to use and play it above the 12th fret. It is designed to play in that range on a guitar that sounds above the 12th fret (up an octave) without dealing with tiny frets and shoddy/spotty intonation. Even great mandolins, well-made instruments get dodgy above the 12th fret. So why would Barney or Tommy have a tool to make these parts easier to play in open position then tune down an octave and have to play it in a range where the instrument isn't as reliable or doesn't sound as good?

They wouldn't.

Which is why I totally disagree that Barney would have restrung this mando-guitar with guitar strings, tuned it down an octave, and played it up above the 12th fret. It just defies practical logic to think that's what he'd do when the part can be played "open position" with a lot more fluidity and sustain.

I compared it in my mind to seeing a block of wood with a nail hammered in. The most logical thought would be that someone hammered in the nail with a hammer. To take it further and say what if he used the wooden handle of the hammer, or what if he used a rock, or what if he used his shoe or anything else gets away from the fact we have a wooden block with a nail hammered in. And 99.9% of the time it was done with a tool that was made to do that job with as little jiggering and modification as possible because there are tools made to do that job.

I was told firsthand about the Kessel family's involvement in the film and the saga of this instrument. We saw a premier auction house and a respected long-time guitar dealer take it public via sales and auctions with the provenance and authentication attached that this was the instrument heard on WIBN.

The conflict for me was recalling the session tapes and also frustratingly not remembering some of the chatter and sounds on all of them from 10 years ago or more when I was into them head-first. The discussions here made me second guess things, which can be good as well as frustrating because for all intents and purposes I thought it was case closed.

All I'd ask is that the most simple and direct line to get from point A to point B be considered more heavily than trying to suggest Barney would restring and retune this instrument to where playing it became much more difficult if not impossible and would defeat the purpose of having such an instrument in the first place.


Postscript: "Amplifying" the acoustic mando-guitar could be as easy as dropping a D'Armond old-school pickup on it just as upright bassists, acoustic guitarists, John Cale with his viola, and many others did in the 50's and 60's to amplify an acoustic string instrument. It would not need to be permanently attached or drilled into the top either.

But I'd check the session tapes and hear when and how the players voices come through (I seriously cannot remember the tapes enough) the mix. If the guitarists playing the intro are heard on the studio floor, or one of them is talking, then they had something mic'ed. If they're only heard on the talkback, they're obviously in the booth direct. That's as simple a test as can be done. If you hear Barney on the studio floor or hear Barney talking at all, he was mic'ed.

Craig, did you watch either of my videos where I tuned my mando down to guitar pitch?  All it took was changing one string out, and as I showed, it is possible to play that way.  I agree-it's nutty.  But then again, so is plucking piano strings with paper clips, putting masking tape on piano strings, making accordion players triple-bellow shake, finding a marxophone to record, or Swedish Frog.

Did you watch my video where the intro was played verbatim on a standard mandolin in mandolin tuning and it sounded (even acoustic) very, very close to the tones on the original minus the studio effects? If it can be done on a regular mandolin, and sound pretty close, why would a busy player like Barney restring his for one session lasting a few hours when the same part can be done if he had it tuned as the instrument came from the factory, which is the whole point of getting such an instrument?

The difference in the examples is that the bellows-shake was a standard part of playing accordion that any pro players would be proficient at doing. Is it common? No - But it is a standard playing technique for accordion players. No physical modification to the instrument is necessary. Putting tape on piano strings is just a way to dampen them - Not even getting into "prepared piano" compositions such as John Cage putting nuts and bolts on the strings to vibrate and produce new sounds several decades before this. The paperclip was Brian and Tony Asher experimenting - No modification necessary beyond bending the paperclip perhaps, and not done with over a dozen musicians working on the clock as they experimented.

And Barney would probably have not modified this mandolin specifically for one "teen" session with Brian by changing strings then changing them back. The phrase "time is money" comes to mind. And the fact that Barney was one of those original LA session players who still looked down on these rock-pop sessions and thought of them as a good way to make money versus actually being emotionally tied into the music as he was with jazz. It was a gig. I doubt Brian would ask him to restring any of his instruments for a 3 or 4 hour session, and I doubt Barney in early 1966 would have done it for one session.

Which returns back to the most logical assumption, that he played it "open" on the instrument tuned as it was built to be tuned with mandolin strings tuned in EADGBE guitar tuning.

I did listen to yours and I think mine sounds closer.

Regardless, I would be more inclined toward your point of view if not for the moment in the session tape when the lead instrument can clearly be heard tuning a course where the lower octave is below the bottom E of the tuning you're describing.  I'm happy to dig out the tapes and provide some time-cues if you would like.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 04, 2018, 11:30:42 AM
Also, it's one string--it took me maybe 2 minutes to take the old string off and tune up, and another 2 to put it back right afterwards.  Since the bottom three strings didn't need to be used (on Barney's), those could be left as is.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 04, 2018, 11:39:08 AM
Additionally -- whoever is playing it struggles to get it right.  Most of the false starts and breakdowns are (presumably) Barney's fault.  Why would he struggle so much?  Unless perhaps he was forced to squeeze his fingers into the higher frets, as I showed in my video.

I hope we can all take this as friendly, intense scholarly debate.  I think we all just want the truth!


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 04, 2018, 11:41:25 AM
Yes, I'd like the time and track cues so I can listen - That's what I'm not remembering. But I still cannot see Barney changing strings like this on the fly. And I cannot see tuning an instrument like this down an octave when it defeats the entire purpose of having it, and when if that sound of an octave lower was what they wanted, Barney could get a 12-string, a Bellzouki, or anything off the rack at Wallich's versus detuning and restringing a mandolin instrument designed to sound like a mandolin. Again, it's like the example in my head of assuming a carpenter took off his shoe to hammer a nail into a wood block instead of simply using a hammer, the tool he had to do such a thing in the first place. There would be no point to using a shoe to hammer the nail if the guy had a hammer in his toolbox all along.  :)  It's adding extra steps and defeating the purpose of getting a custom guitar/mandolin hybrid with 6 strings tuned up the octave.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 04, 2018, 11:43:42 AM
Additionally -- whoever is playing it struggles to get it right.  Most of the false starts and breakdowns are (presumably) Barney's fault.  Why would he struggle so much?  Unless perhaps he was forced to squeeze his fingers into the higher frets, as I showed in my video.

I hope we can all take this as friendly, intense scholarly debate.  I think we all just want the truth!

I agree!

The mandolin itself with the smaller frets up and down the neck is hard to intonate sometimes, and my fingers are a little big too and it can be hard to get the right sustain with those smaller frets. Maybe Barney had the same issues trying to get those arpeggios to sustain the way they needed to.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: JK on December 04, 2018, 12:26:42 PM
I hope we can all take this as friendly, intense scholarly debate.  I think we all just want the truth!

I agree!

Thanks, folks. You're the best. :)


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 04, 2018, 01:41:26 PM
I'm going through the whole session tape as presented on the SOT boot, and keeping a record of every pertinent time stamp (i.e., where Barney's guitar can be clearly heard). So far, I've got through the first six takes (Track 9 on the disc) - most of which broke down after the intro due to the problems Hal was having with playing what Brian wanted. As you can see, Barney clearly struggled with fretting or was having intonation problems, and one take was stopped due to this:

Track 9 -
00:02-00:09 (Jerry can also be heard noodling on his electric 12-string in the background) - Barney is tuning his instrument -

Take 1 (00:13-00:21): funnily, Hal seems to be doing the count-in as "One...Two...One - Two - STEEL!"  On this first take, Barney is still struggling with the intro, and frets out on the last note of the second-to-last position (between 00:19 and 00:20) He continues to practice the intro while Brian instructs Hal on how to make his entrance from 00:23 to 00:46 (Jerry can be heard checking his tuning early on in this section) - at 00:58 Barney sounds a note, after which Jerry plays the first six notes of "The Star Spangled Banner" followed by an apparently improvised riff (00:59-1:03), after which he plays the same two riffs in a higher position (1:07-1:11) - at 01:14-1:18, Barney checks his tuning again -

Take 2 (1:29-1:32) - Barney's intro isn't precise, so Brian immediately calls for one more - Larry makes an undecipherable comment, there is laughter from the floor, and Jerry plays another riff from 1:33-1:35 -

Take 3 (1:48-1:56) - Barney plays the intro all the way through, but inadvertently hits some adjacent strings in the process; Brian and Larry stop the take after the intro because Hal didn't enter when he was supposed to - at 2:41-2:44, Barney practices the intro again, after which Jerry can be heard quietly playing a few notes around the middle of the neck - from 2:48-2:53, Barney again plays the intro, but faster (like double-speed) - from 2:55-2:56, Barney sounds the opening note twice -

Take 4 (3:03-3:09) - this intro is complete, but again breaks down because Hal has still not perfected his entrance - Brian calls for Take 5, then at 3:23, someone can be heard doing a quick downward strum of four strings (downward pitch-wise), however it may not be Barney, since Barney quickly plays his intro notes again from 3:33-3:44, while in the background we can hear not only Jerry's electric, but the archtop acoustic (played on this session by Bill Pitman), and the aural positioning of that relative to the other instruments suggests that maybe THAT'S what played the downward strum at 3:23 - Jerry's electric sounds a single high note at 3:50 -

Take 5 ? (3:50-4:01) - once again, the intro is complete, but Brian stops the performance due to Hal's incorrect intro -

Take 6 seems to be missing from the presentation, as a break in the tape is noticeable and Track 10 begins with Larry announcing Take 7

Incidentally, I don't recall hearing any of the guitar players' voices on the whole session tape, but I guess we'll see as I work my way through.

EDIT: separated out takes onto different lines for ease of reading.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 04, 2018, 03:22:06 PM
[...]
after which Jerry plays the first six notes of "The Star Spangled Banner" followed by an apparently improvised riff (00:59-1:03), after which he plays the same two riffs in a higher position (1:07-1:11) [...]

In my opinion, Jerry does not play it twice--rather the first is Jerry, the second is actually Barney imitating him.  It's actually not higher--it's just the timbre of the mandolin and the clearer sounding on the octave string vs. the guitar on a neck pick-up.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 04, 2018, 03:30:53 PM
On the second track of the session (I don't know how it appears on the CD) which I have as labeled "Take 7" at around 2:24, Barney is practicing and it sounds like he bumps his open D-string, again, a whole step below what an octave guitar would be tuned.

Shortly thereafter (2:25-2:35 or so) is what is the smoking gun, in my opinion.  Barney is trying to get the opening A in tune and you hear him hammering away at that, then you hear him release it and tune the open courses, which are Gs--an octave below what an octave 12 would be tuned.  In this case, it is not below the range of an octave 12, but it is an open string G at 12-string guitar pitch, which would not make sense on an EADGBE octave 12.




Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 04, 2018, 05:03:50 PM
[...]
after which Jerry plays the first six notes of "The Star Spangled Banner" followed by an apparently improvised riff (00:59-1:03), after which he plays the same two riffs in a higher position (1:07-1:11) [...]

In my opinion, Jerry does not play it twice--rather the first is Jerry, the second is actually Barney imitating him.  It's actually not higher--it's just the timbre of the mandolin and the clearer sounding on the octave string vs. the guitar on a neck pick-up.


Yeah, I think you're right. :)


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: DonnyL on December 04, 2018, 05:19:53 PM
My opinion:

The instrument is acoustic, not electric/plugged in.

The instrument has some octave sounds.

Possible guess (I know this will be controversial):

Bellzouki unplugged, close miked. This easily could have happened (Barney was practicing, BW liked the unplugged sound and went for that, everyone forgot later and assumed it was the mandolin, etc. …something like that).


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 04, 2018, 07:37:15 PM
On the second track of the session (I don't know how it appears on the CD) which I have as labeled "Take 7" at around 2:24, Barney is practicing and it sounds like he bumps his open D-string, again, a whole step below what an octave guitar would be tuned.

Shortly thereafter (2:25-2:35 or so) is what is the smoking gun, in my opinion.  Barney is trying to get the opening A in tune and you hear him hammering away at that, then you hear him release it and tune the open courses, which are Gs--an octave below what an octave 12 would be tuned.  In this case, it is not below the range of an octave 12, but it is an open string G at 12-string guitar pitch, which would not make sense on an EADGBE octave 12.




I listened (am actually listening now)...and there is a smoking gun but not the one mentioned. There are no octave strings on a mandolin. When Barney starts plucking the high note A (take 7, just prior to take 8...as mentioned, SOT vol 13, disc 2, track 11, around 2:20), then the high note E, he's fretting them. The intonation is flat. He DOES start tuning his open G string to fix it.

BUT - The smoking gun is that Barney's mandolin both shown in the auction photo and mandolins in general do NOT have octave strings. They just don't.

If that is Barney practicing and tuning on these takes, he's playing a standard 12-string guitar. My ears hear it now plain as day after the reminder. He's tuning the standard string and the octave double separately to get them both to ring true with no wavering. The instrument's intonation is crap when he plays it above the 12th fret, but it's not a mandolin.

Hot damn.

And that stray D string hit at 2:24 is Jerry to my ears. Different timbre. But I could be wrong.

Anyway on these session tapes, Barney (if that's him) is not playing his mando guitar as seen in the photos on page one. There are no octave strings on mandolins. They're all doubles.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 04, 2018, 08:00:42 PM
Point of interest, SOT track 15, start at 2:50. It's between takes 15 and 16. Brian says cool the arms to give the players a break and you hear both guitarists noodling. At 3:02 you hear one of them doing odd be-bop runs.

At 3:23 you hear again the first notes played, then the high e strings are tuned open. As that is happening you hear the other guitar run that same Star Spangled Banner-esque lick that pops up several times. But the clincher is these are *both* 12 string guitars.

At exactly 3:23 listen to the first note struck, as the intro is played very slow followed by tuning after that high note "A" is again out of tune because of intonation.

No doubt - This is not the mando-guitar heard on this session so far. It is a twelve string guitar. That first note is clearly the note A, fretted at the 14th fret (standard guitar) with an octave string ringing with the regular G string: The very same G-string and paired-up octave string that was being tuned earlier on these tapes. There are no octave strings on that mandolin instrument or any mandolin in general.

So what scenarios if anything am I missing? It's not the mando guitar on these takes where that high G octave string is heard clearly and obviously.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 05:08:52 AM
Double


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 05:22:50 AM
On the second track of the session (I don't know how it appears on the CD) which I have as labeled "Take 7" at around 2:24, Barney is practicing and it sounds like he bumps his open D-string, again, a whole step below what an octave guitar would be tuned.

Shortly thereafter (2:25-2:35 or so) is what is the smoking gun, in my opinion.  Barney is trying to get the opening A in tune and you hear him hammering away at that, then you hear him release it and tune the open courses, which are Gs--an octave below what an octave 12 would be tuned.  In this case, it is not below the range of an octave 12, but it is an open string G at 12-string guitar pitch, which would not make sense on an EADGBE octave 12.




I listened (am actually listening now)...and there is a smoking gun but not the one mentioned. There are no octave strings on a mandolin. When Barney starts plucking the high note A (take 7, just prior to take 8...as mentioned, SOT vol 13, disc 2, track 11, around 2:20), then the high note E, he's fretting them. The intonation is flat. He DOES start tuning his open G string to fix it.

BUT - The smoking gun is that Barney's mandolin both shown in the auction photo and mandolins in general do NOT have octave strings. They just don't.

If that is Barney practicing and tuning on these takes, he's playing a standard 12-string guitar. My ears hear it now plain as day after the reminder. He's tuning the standard string and the octave double separately to get them both to ring true with no wavering. The instrument's intonation is crap when he plays it above the 12th fret, but it's not a mandolin.

Hot damn.

And that stray D string hit at 2:24 is Jerry to my ears. Different timbre. But I could be wrong.

Anyway on these session tapes, Barney (if that's him) is not playing his mando guitar as seen in the photos on page one. There are no octave strings on mandolins. They're all doubles.
Unless you string them in octaves, which is quite possible.  I don't quite understand why you're so unwilling to even allow the tiniest possibility that the man who famously asked "Chuck, can we get a horse in here" might want to tune an instrument differently than what it was intended for.  Plus, there's the occam's razor thing to this.

The instrument on the tape has octave courses.
It sounds weird - (has been publicly confused with a calliope, a harp, an electric piano, etc)
There is an oral tradition of Barney playing a mandolin on the track.
His mandolin just sold, having been provenencially associated with WIBN.
I've proven that tuning a mandolin in such a way works and sounds very similar to what's on the session, and my mandolin has a much shorter scale than Barney's.  It took less than 5 minutes using extra strings I already had.

vs.

Mandolins just aren't tuned that way.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 09:00:48 AM
On the second track of the session (I don't know how it appears on the CD) which I have as labeled "Take 7" at around 2:24, Barney is practicing and it sounds like he bumps his open D-string, again, a whole step below what an octave guitar would be tuned.

Shortly thereafter (2:25-2:35 or so) is what is the smoking gun, in my opinion.  Barney is trying to get the opening A in tune and you hear him hammering away at that, then you hear him release it and tune the open courses, which are Gs--an octave below what an octave 12 would be tuned.  In this case, it is not below the range of an octave 12, but it is an open string G at 12-string guitar pitch, which would not make sense on an EADGBE octave 12.




I listened (am actually listening now)...and there is a smoking gun but not the one mentioned. There are no octave strings on a mandolin. When Barney starts plucking the high note A (take 7, just prior to take 8...as mentioned, SOT vol 13, disc 2, track 11, around 2:20), then the high note E, he's fretting them. The intonation is flat. He DOES start tuning his open G string to fix it.

BUT - The smoking gun is that Barney's mandolin both shown in the auction photo and mandolins in general do NOT have octave strings. They just don't.

If that is Barney practicing and tuning on these takes, he's playing a standard 12-string guitar. My ears hear it now plain as day after the reminder. He's tuning the standard string and the octave double separately to get them both to ring true with no wavering. The instrument's intonation is crap when he plays it above the 12th fret, but it's not a mandolin.

Hot damn.

And that stray D string hit at 2:24 is Jerry to my ears. Different timbre. But I could be wrong.

Anyway on these session tapes, Barney (if that's him) is not playing his mando guitar as seen in the photos on page one. There are no octave strings on mandolins. They're all doubles.
Unless you string them in octaves, which is quite possible.  I don't quite understand why you're so unwilling to even allow the tiniest possibility that the man who famously asked "Chuck, can we get a horse in here" might want to tune an instrument differently than what it was intended for.  Plus, there's the occam's razor thing to this.

The instrument on the tape has octave courses.
It sounds weird - (has been publicly confused with a calliope, a harp, an electric piano, etc)
There is an oral tradition of Barney playing a mandolin on the track.
His mandolin just sold, having been provenencially associated with WIBN.
I've proven that tuning a mandolin in such a way works and sounds very similar to what's on the session, and my mandolin has a much shorter scale than Barney's.  It took less than 5 minutes using extra strings I already had.

vs.

Mandolins just aren't tuned that way.


My ears are telling me loud and clear he's playing a 12 string guitar *on those session tapes*.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2018, 10:37:17 AM
My opinion:

The instrument is acoustic, not electric/plugged in.

The instrument has some octave sounds.

Possible guess (I know this will be controversial):

Bellzouki unplugged, close miked. This easily could have happened (Barney was practicing, BW liked the unplugged sound and went for that, everyone forgot later and assumed it was the mandolin, etc. …something like that).


I'm told Bellzoukis are relatively easy to play high up the neck, yet Barney struggles and struggles with this instrument...


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2018, 10:39:37 AM

My ears are telling me loud and clear he's playing a 12 string guitar *on those session tapes*.

But how do you account for the fact that Barney is clearly struggling with intonation and fretting throughout this session? I don't think that would be the case with a regular 12-string electric guitar (whether amp'd or not), and I'm not aware of any 12-string acoustics with cutaways being around in those days (and it would be impossible to play without a cutaway).


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 11:02:18 AM
My opinion:

The instrument is acoustic, not electric/plugged in.

The instrument has some octave sounds.

Possible guess (I know this will be controversial):

Bellzouki unplugged, close miked. This easily could have happened (Barney was practicing, BW liked the unplugged sound and went for that, everyone forgot later and assumed it was the mandolin, etc. …something like that).


I'm told Bellzoukis are relatively easy to play high up the neck, yet Barney struggles and struggles with this instrument...


He really does, and he even makes fun of himself for it later in the session by playing the lick with a high A# instead of A, maybe to express his frustration with stuffing his fingers in the smaller spaces.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 11:04:18 AM

My ears are telling me loud and clear he's playing a 12 string guitar *on those session tapes*.

But how do you account for the fact that Barney is clearly struggling with intonation and fretting throughout this session? I don't think that would be the case with a regular 12-string electric guitar (whether amp'd or not), and I'm not aware of any 12-string acoustics with cutaways being around in those days (and it would be impossible to play without a cutaway).

I'm trying to think of another Barney session where he really plays much between takes at all.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 11:05:34 AM

My ears are telling me loud and clear he's playing a 12 string guitar *on those session tapes*.

But how do you account for the fact that Barney is clearly struggling with intonation and fretting throughout this session? I don't think that would be the case with a regular 12-string electric guitar (whether amp'd or not), and I'm not aware of any 12-string acoustics with cutaways being around in those days (and it would be impossible to play without a cutaway).

I separate this into two categories, and both will perhaps never have a definitive answer.

First is the mechanical/technical side: A lot of 12 strings (electrics) have pretty bad intonation above the 10th fret, even worse above the 12th or 14th. That includes the esteemed Rickenbacker, which can be a nightmare to intonate and play in tune despite the cost of these guitars. Imagine Barney having a Danelectro with a shoddy bridge, and yes Barney did have a selection of Danelectro guitars as did many of the session players. A lot of them got them fixed by having a more stable bridge replacing the stock wooden Danelectro bridge because the intonation was an issue. But that's pure speculation.

Next is the one I've struggled with for many years after hearing these raw session tapes play out:

Barney Kessel is and was one of the most respected (and best) jazz guitarists of all time. He was an "original" Wrecking Crew member dating back to the early to mid 50's when there was no "Wrecking Crew", and he maintained his profile as a jazz heavyweight constantly finishing in the top of jazz polls and performing regularly on some of the most popular and respected jazz albums and recordings. Jobim credited his work with Julie London for helping "invent" Bossa Nova with Barney's chord inversions and accompaniment style with Julie...all the guitarists around Jobim were literally obsessed with Barney's playing and from their work trying to learn his chord style, they developed Bossa Nova.

I could go on with his accomplishments, but Barney was a musician who other LA session guitarists would seek out for guitar lessons. Simply put, he was one of the best in the business alongside names like Bob Bain, Tommy, etc...working the LA scene.

So to hear him struggle on take after take with what isn't really a complex part...I've never been able to rectify that with Barney's skill as a musician.

It is one piece of the puzzle that simply does not fit. Barney could play and read anything, yet maybe he was having an off day with WIBN because he's missing the part and trying to rehearse it dozens of times over the course of these tapes. It just isn't like Barney Kessel if that makes sense.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 11:09:05 AM

My ears are telling me loud and clear he's playing a 12 string guitar *on those session tapes*.

But how do you account for the fact that Barney is clearly struggling with intonation and fretting throughout this session? I don't think that would be the case with a regular 12-string electric guitar (whether amp'd or not), and I'm not aware of any 12-string acoustics with cutaways being around in those days (and it would be impossible to play without a cutaway).

I separate this into two categories, and both will perhaps never have a definitive answer.

First is the mechanical/technical side: A lot of 12 strings (electrics) have pretty bad intonation above the 10th fret, even worse above the 12th or 14th. That includes the esteemed Rickenbacker, which can be a nightmare to intonate and play in tune despite the cost of these guitars. Imagine Barney having a Danelectro with a shoddy bridge, and yes Barney did have a selection of Danelectro guitars as did many of the session players. A lot of them got them fixed by having a more stable bridge replacing the stock wooden Danelectro bridge because the intonation was an issue. But that's pure speculation.

Next is the one I've struggled with for many years after hearing these raw session tapes play out:

Barney Kessel is and was one of the most respected (and best) jazz guitarists of all time. He was an "original" Wrecking Crew member dating back to the early to mid 50's when there was no "Wrecking Crew", and he maintained his profile as a jazz heavyweight constantly finishing in the top of jazz polls and performing regularly on some of the most popular and respected jazz albums and recordings. Jobim credited his work with Julie London for helping "invent" Bossa Nova with Barney's chord inversions and accompaniment style with Julie...all the guitarists around Jobim were literally obsessed with Barney's playing and from their work trying to learn his chord style, they developed Bossa Nova.

I could go on with his accomplishments, but Barney was a musician who other LA session guitarists would seek out for guitar lessons. Simply put, he was one of the best in the business alongside names like Bob Bain, Tommy, etc...working the LA scene.

So to hear him struggle on take after take with what isn't really a complex part...I've never been able to rectify that with Barney's skill as a musician.

It is one piece of the puzzle that simply does not fit. Barney could play and read anything, yet maybe he was having an off day with WIBN because he's missing the part and trying to rehearse it dozens of times over the course of these tapes. It just isn't like Barney Kessel if that makes sense.

Sounds like great support to the idea that he was playing some unusual instrument!


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 11:18:31 AM

My ears are telling me loud and clear he's playing a 12 string guitar *on those session tapes*.

But how do you account for the fact that Barney is clearly struggling with intonation and fretting throughout this session? I don't think that would be the case with a regular 12-string electric guitar (whether amp'd or not), and I'm not aware of any 12-string acoustics with cutaways being around in those days (and it would be impossible to play without a cutaway).

I separate this into two categories, and both will perhaps never have a definitive answer.

First is the mechanical/technical side: A lot of 12 strings (electrics) have pretty bad intonation above the 10th fret, even worse above the 12th or 14th. That includes the esteemed Rickenbacker, which can be a nightmare to intonate and play in tune despite the cost of these guitars. Imagine Barney having a Danelectro with a shoddy bridge, and yes Barney did have a selection of Danelectro guitars as did many of the session players. A lot of them got them fixed by having a more stable bridge replacing the stock wooden Danelectro bridge because the intonation was an issue. But that's pure speculation.

Next is the one I've struggled with for many years after hearing these raw session tapes play out:

Barney Kessel is and was one of the most respected (and best) jazz guitarists of all time. He was an "original" Wrecking Crew member dating back to the early to mid 50's when there was no "Wrecking Crew", and he maintained his profile as a jazz heavyweight constantly finishing in the top of jazz polls and performing regularly on some of the most popular and respected jazz albums and recordings. Jobim credited his work with Julie London for helping "invent" Bossa Nova with Barney's chord inversions and accompaniment style with Julie...all the guitarists around Jobim were literally obsessed with Barney's playing and from their work trying to learn his chord style, they developed Bossa Nova.

I could go on with his accomplishments, but Barney was a musician who other LA session guitarists would seek out for guitar lessons. Simply put, he was one of the best in the business alongside names like Bob Bain, Tommy, etc...working the LA scene.

So to hear him struggle on take after take with what isn't really a complex part...I've never been able to rectify that with Barney's skill as a musician.

It is one piece of the puzzle that simply does not fit. Barney could play and read anything, yet maybe he was having an off day with WIBN because he's missing the part and trying to rehearse it dozens of times over the course of these tapes. It just isn't like Barney Kessel if that makes sense.

Sounds like great support to the idea that he was playing some unusual instrument!


That line could be drawn, yes. But my ears after revisiting those tapes and zeroing in on the specific track times you posted told me a different story. Nothing in the between-take noodling, practicing, and tuning suggested proof that he was playing something other than a 12-string guitar of some kind. I heard the smoking gun of tuning that G-string, and listening further through the session it all sounded like he was playing a regular 12-string.

This is what I've been struggling with since my posts on page 1. If there were something concrete to hear on those actual tapes, something that could ostensibly go to court if you will as hard evidence versus circumstantial, after-the-fact, or speculation, I'd be more confident in agreeing with what I was told personally and what apparently went through the vetting process at Heritage Auctions regarding the instrument.

But the elephant in the room is that the tapes do not - to my ears - have anything of the sort. What is frustrating too is that Brian names several players by name on the session, yet never mentions "Barney" or "Jerry" unless there is more tape of this session that didn't make it to SOT or the PS box set collections.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 11:30:10 AM

That line could be drawn, yes. But my ears after revisiting those tapes and zeroing in on the specific track times you posted told me a different story. Nothing in the between-take noodling, practicing, and tuning suggested proof that he was playing something other than a 12-string guitar of some kind. I heard the smoking gun of tuning that G-string, and listening further through the session it all sounded like he was playing a regular 12-string.


But you just said that the noodling, practicing, and tuning DO suggest there is something odd about why one of the great guitarists of all time would struggle so much to play a lick that I, one of the worst guitarists of all time, could play left-handed.

Did you listen to my second video?  I recorded it with the mic that comes with stock apple earbuds on terrible software, and at times it sounds pretty electric-guitar-y.  Is it that inconceivable that a mandolin could sound very much like an electric guitar if recorded properly and washed in reverb?  I'm no expert in the history of temporary pick-ups, but my guess is acoustic purity was not the hallmark of such devices.



Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2018, 11:31:43 AM
Well, to me, there's a big difference in the sound of the two 12-strings on that session tape, aside from one being amped electrically and the other possibly being mic'd acoustically - and that is the resonance on the dominant guitar, which to my ears is consistent with that of a small, curved body (a la "mandolin").


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 11:35:02 AM
That's just it--it sounds woody.  It sounds ever-so-slightly off.  Smart, musical people have thought the instrument was anything from a harp to a calliope. 

It's the simplest, best explanation!


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 11:40:51 AM
Pro - extended, downtuned mandolin:

1.  Oral tradition that it was a mandolin, or strange guitar.
2.  Barney's widow?
3.  LAM Production team had full access to great resources and concluded it was a mandolin.
4.  Brian is known for trying strange things.
5.  Barney struggles to play it despite being one of the greats.
6.  It sounds strange enough that it's taken us this long to get to this point.
7.  It sounds strange enough that musicians have misidentified it as non-guitar-like instruments.
8.  It has a bright, woody timbre.
9.  Auction house risked a blow to their reputation by claiming it as such.
10.  My quick experiments prove that stringing a mandolin in such a way works just fine and doesn't take very long to set up.


Con -

1.  It doesn't really sound like what we think of when we think of a mandolin (e.g. bluegrass recordings)
2.  It'd take some extra effort to string that way, probably at Brian's insistence.
3.  We can't be 100% sure of the pick-up situation, despite assuming it was plugged in to the board all these years.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 11:52:07 AM
It could sound off just the same because of the design of 12-string guitars as of early 1966. These were not designed to play above the 12th fret, yet here is a part which reaches the 17th fret.

It was the open G string tuning and the tuning throughout that reignited the doubts about what this instrument was. Added to what I've already mentioned with the octave string, and all other sounds that are 100% hallmarks of any 12-string guitar.

That's all I'm saying: There is reasonable doubt. There is no solid, concrete proof or evidence on the tapes we're listening to which could prove what instrument is played. In legal terms, let's say something like this were in a court case. Being able to come close to reproducing the sound or activity in question is not "evidence" that would hold up in court, in fact in perhaps 99.9% of court scenarios if one side were able to recreate something after the fact for the court, it still isn't valid evidence that the recreation elements are what was in play in the original scenario being decided in court.

If there were more proof as in audio on the tapes, I'd be all in.

Consider I've been holding fast to what was told to me about this instrument for a number of years - In spite of debates that it was a detuned 12-string, a Bellzouki, or some other option. I did the mandolin video of my own to offer some possibility that we could be hearing a mandolin like Barney's on the track, acoustic, in light of comments suggesting it may not have been.

But hearing the actual session tapes as I did revisiting them yesterday after not listening closely for years gives a different impression, one which perhaps a number of guitarists or authorities in the field may also say "it sounds like a 12-string" after hearing the between-take audio.

I think perhaps the inclusion of Barney holding that 12-string mandolin in the PS Sessions booklet may have inadvertently created a false impression among a lot of fans who saw it and thought this is both a photo of Barney at the actual session and that this is the exact instrument he played. That photo appeared 22 years ago to the general public, and I think perhaps that became something that it was not - Proof that Barney used that on WIBN.

As it stands right now, there is nothing on the tapes that could be used as solid proof that Barney is playing something other than a 12-string. Everything so far is speculation, or after-the-fact reverse engineering that could be done in any similar scenario but which ultimately is just speculation.

And that's also part of my frustration.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 11:58:17 AM

As it stands right now, there is nothing on the tapes that could be used as solid proof that Barney is playing something other than a 12-string. Everything so far is speculation, or after-the-fact reverse engineering that could be done in any similar scenario but which ultimately is just speculation.

And that's also part of my frustration.

Likewise, there is nothing on the tapes that could be used to prove that Barney is playing a 12-string guitar.  I just don't understand your categorical resistance to the idea that it could maybe, possibly be a mandolin tuned like a 12-string guitar and made to sound a lot like a 12-string guitar through a pick-up and some processing, which is a really, really simple potential answer to the "mystery"--but you won't even countenance it.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 12:04:54 PM
There is reasonable doubt. There is no solid, concrete proof or evidence on the tapes we're listening to which could prove what instrument is played. In legal terms, let's say something like this were in a court case. Being able to come close to reproducing the sound or activity in question is not "evidence" that would hold up in court, in fact in perhaps 99.9% of court scenarios if one side were able to recreate something after the fact for the court, it still isn't valid evidence that the recreation elements are what was in play in the original scenario being decided in court.

Technically, such a recreation IS evidence.  It's up to a jury to decide how persuasive it is in relation to the case.  And in a civil case, all you need is a preponderance of evidence--it's a much lower standard!

Sorry, lawyer, here.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 12:14:47 PM
There is reasonable doubt. There is no solid, concrete proof or evidence on the tapes we're listening to which could prove what instrument is played. In legal terms, let's say something like this were in a court case. Being able to come close to reproducing the sound or activity in question is not "evidence" that would hold up in court, in fact in perhaps 99.9% of court scenarios if one side were able to recreate something after the fact for the court, it still isn't valid evidence that the recreation elements are what was in play in the original scenario being decided in court.

Technically, such a recreation IS evidence.  It's up to a jury to decide how persuasive it is in relation to the case.  And in a civil case, all you need is a preponderance of evidence--it's a much lower standard!

Sorry, lawyer, here.

Ok - So where is the evidence on the tapes that this is something other than a 12-string guitar being played? That's what has been sticking in my mind. Recreating or coming close to the sound decades later isn't evidence of that sort, especially where it seems nothing on the actual session tapes seems to be that level of proof. If the notion were introduced that Barney was struggling with the part, therefore it must be because he was struggling with an unusual instrument, the rebuttal could be simply what if Barney was having an off day or not feeling well? Or if the tapes were the primary evidence, someone could raise the issue that nowhere on the tapes is it heard that "Barney" is named as the player of the part being dissected. Enough could be made for either case, right?

Just to clarify, again, for quite a few years I have been saying this hybrid mandolin instrument is what was played because of firsthand info and whatnot. Yet, after hearing the tapes, it calls it into question because of some basic issues including what is heard on the tapes, and the design of the instruments in question. What I thought was case closed because of what was told to me doesn't seem as cut-and-dry after hearing the tapes where it all played out in 1966 at Gold Star.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2018, 12:18:00 PM
To me, the rounded, woody resonance of the thing is evidence of it being something other than a standard 12-string guitar.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 12:22:55 PM

As it stands right now, there is nothing on the tapes that could be used as solid proof that Barney is playing something other than a 12-string. Everything so far is speculation, or after-the-fact reverse engineering that could be done in any similar scenario but which ultimately is just speculation.

And that's also part of my frustration.

Likewise, there is nothing on the tapes that could be used to prove that Barney is playing a 12-string guitar.  I just don't understand your categorical resistance to the idea that it could maybe, possibly be a mandolin tuned like a 12-string guitar and made to sound a lot like a 12-string guitar through a pick-up and some processing, which is a really, really simple potential answer to the "mystery"--but you won't even countenance it.

I've already explained the reasons why - To sum it up further, "time is money" when large group sessions like this were held, and it defies common sense to think that in order to get a sound of a 12-string for a part, a player like Barney Kessel doing a pop date in early 1966 would go through at least 4 or more extra steps to "prepare" an instrument *specifically designed* to sound like a mandolin to instead sound like a 12-string guitar versus simply grabbing a 12-string guitar. Keeping in mind, too, that this is the same Brian Wilson who around the same time period bought and paid for a new Fender 12-string guitar and brand new amp and had it delivered to the studio on an off-day so the player he hired could add a 12-string overdub to the existing Sloop John B tracks.

But disclaimer, that is also speculation on my part - And it's speculation in reverse to suggest this is what Barney did simply because a recreation with restringing a mandolin came close in the year 2018. At the end of the day, they're both speculation short of hearing proof on those tapes.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 12:26:15 PM
To me, the rounded, woody resonance of the thing is evidence of it being something other than a standard 12-string guitar.

The earlier Bellzouki I believe was a semi-hollow guitar, as are most Danelectros. The "wings" are mostly hollow which is why they're so light, and it does produce this different kind of tone as a result (hard to describe without physically playing one in person). Not saying that as evidence either way, but just for clarification. It would be instructional to get a vintage early-mid 60's Bellzouki to demo the part for comparison. Unfortunately I do not have one.  ;D


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 12:26:37 PM
There is reasonable doubt. There is no solid, concrete proof or evidence on the tapes we're listening to which could prove what instrument is played. In legal terms, let's say something like this were in a court case. Being able to come close to reproducing the sound or activity in question is not "evidence" that would hold up in court, in fact in perhaps 99.9% of court scenarios if one side were able to recreate something after the fact for the court, it still isn't valid evidence that the recreation elements are what was in play in the original scenario being decided in court.

Technically, such a recreation IS evidence.  It's up to a jury to decide how persuasive it is in relation to the case.  And in a civil case, all you need is a preponderance of evidence--it's a much lower standard!

Sorry, lawyer, here.

Ok - So where is the evidence on the tapes that this is something other than a 12-string guitar being played? That's what has been sticking in my mind. Recreating or coming close to the sound decades later isn't evidence of that sort, especially where it seems nothing on the actual session tapes seems to be that level of proof. If the notion were introduced that Barney was struggling with the part, therefore it must be because he was struggling with an unusual instrument, the rebuttal could be simply what if Barney was having an off day or not feeling well? Or if the tapes were the primary evidence, someone could raise the issue that nowhere on the tapes is it heard that "Barney" is named as the player of the part being dissected. Enough could be made for either case, right?

Just to clarify, again, for quite a few years I have been saying this hybrid mandolin instrument is what was played because of firsthand info and whatnot. Yet, after hearing the tapes, it calls it into question because of some basic issues including what is heard on the tapes, and the design of the instruments in question. What I thought was case closed because of what was told to me doesn't seem as cut-and-dry after hearing the tapes where it all played out in 1966 at Gold Star.

Do you suddenly lose your ability to play easy guitar parts when you're feeling bad?  Even if it's Jerry Cole, Even if it's Bill Pitman or Ray Pohlman, none of them would have a problem playing that part.

The best evidence that it's not a 12-string is that it doesn't sound like a 12-string guitar.  Every attempt I've heard by anybody to play that figure on a Fender XII or any other 12-string guitar does not sound anything like what's on the tapes.

To me, the rounded, woody resonance of the thing is evidence of it being something other than a standard 12-string guitar.

Agreed.


Craig (C) - in a nutshell, summarize your best arguments for why it is not a downtuned mandolin.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 12:27:59 PM

As it stands right now, there is nothing on the tapes that could be used as solid proof that Barney is playing something other than a 12-string. Everything so far is speculation, or after-the-fact reverse engineering that could be done in any similar scenario but which ultimately is just speculation.

And that's also part of my frustration.

Likewise, there is nothing on the tapes that could be used to prove that Barney is playing a 12-string guitar.  I just don't understand your categorical resistance to the idea that it could maybe, possibly be a mandolin tuned like a 12-string guitar and made to sound a lot like a 12-string guitar through a pick-up and some processing, which is a really, really simple potential answer to the "mystery"--but you won't even countenance it.

I've already explained the reasons why - To sum it up further, "time is money" when large group sessions like this were held, and it defies common sense to think that in order to get a sound of a 12-string for a part, a player like Barney Kessel doing a pop date in early 1966 would go through at least 4 or more extra steps to "prepare" an instrument *specifically designed* to sound like a mandolin to instead sound like a 12-string guitar versus simply grabbing a 12-string guitar. Keeping in mind, too, that this is the same Brian Wilson who around the same time period bought and paid for a new Fender 12-string guitar and brand new amp and had it delivered to the studio on an off-day so the player he hired could add a 12-string overdub to the existing Sloop John B tracks.

But disclaimer, that is also speculation on my part - And it's speculation in reverse to suggest this is what Barney did simply because a recreation with restringing a mandolin came close in the year 2018. At the end of the day, they're both speculation short of hearing proof on those tapes.

How does it defy common sense!?!?  It took me 5 minutes and this is Brian Wilson.




Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 12:30:14 PM
Scenario:

Brian: Hi Barney, thanks for playing today.

Barney: I'm getting paid to, so...

Brian:  Did you learn your part?

Barney: Yes.  *plays it*

Brian: Hey do you have that mandolin you used the other day on that session?

Barney: It's in my trunk.

Brian: could you play this part on it?

Barney: Well, not really, I'd have to tune it down and replace a string.

Brian: Yeah, ok, but, you could do that right?

Barney: well, I guess I could.

Brian: Let's make it.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 12:40:29 PM
I'm going with my ears strictly on the session tapes, which is what was proposed back on page 1. If arguing speculation is what we're doing, it could go forever because the proof thus far is not on the tapes we're examining. On the session tapes, I do not personally hear anything that would not or could not be played on a regular 12-string guitar and no audio smoking guns to say it was not, in fact the tuning of the instrument during the sessions sounds like it could be a 12-string guitar in regular tuning. In the other corner, I have what was told to me and what the Kessel family said about it. Being able to recreate an approximation of something decades later is not proof of how something was created originally. So I'm weighing the session tapes more heavily if we're going for audio proof alone. And the audio tapes so far are not offering anything definitive to suggest it wasn't a 12-string guitar all along, other than speculations about Barney messing up the part and what some may hear as the woody tone quality of the instrument.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 12:45:35 PM
I'm going with my ears strictly on the session tapes, which is what was proposed back on page 1. If arguing speculation is what we're doing, it could go forever because the proof thus far is not on the tapes we're examining. On the session tapes, I do not personally hear anything that would not or could not be played on a regular 12-string guitar and no audio smoking guns to say it was not, in fact the tuning of the instrument during the sessions sounds like it could be a 12-string guitar in regular tuning. In the other corner, I have what was told to me and what the Kessel family said about it. Being able to recreate an approximation of something decades later is not proof of how something was created originally. So I'm weighing the session tapes more heavily if we're going for audio proof alone. And the audio tapes so far are not offering anything definitive to suggest it wasn't a 12-string guitar all along, other than speculations about Barney messing up the part and what some may hear as the woody tone quality of the instrument.

Well, I guess that's the end of it then.  I still don't understand your seemingly irrational inability to even acknowledge the simplest answer, but you're clearly not open to thinking outside the box here. (I am good-naturedly baffled, friend).  I challenge you to find any 12-string that sounds like that, and when you do, let me know.  Otherwise, I will be over here rejoicing in the knowledge that I finally know with reasonable certainty what was played on the WIBN intro after so many years of uncertainty.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Jay on December 05, 2018, 01:00:21 PM
That's just it--it sounds woody.  It sounds ever-so-slightly off.  Smart, musical people have thought the instrument was anything from a harp to a calliope. 

It's the simplest, best explanation!
I always thought it sounded like a harp, with a guitar "doubling" the riff.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: DonnyL on December 05, 2018, 03:27:41 PM
My opinion:

The instrument is acoustic, not electric/plugged in.

The instrument has some octave sounds.

Possible guess (I know this will be controversial):

Bellzouki unplugged, close miked. This easily could have happened (Barney was practicing, BW liked the unplugged sound and went for that, everyone forgot later and assumed it was the mandolin, etc. …something like that).


I'm told Bellzoukis are relatively easy to play high up the neck, yet Barney struggles and struggles with this instrument...

If he's playing it in the way I imagine, it's pretty high up there, past where the body meets the neck (which would become more difficult on a bolt-on neck).

But this brings up an interesting point: he struggles to play it. I would think this would be relevant regardless of instrument -- he would be familiar with playing his instruments. Any chance it is not Barney after all, or is that not a possibility?

Worth noting is a Bellzouki was designed a sort of 12-string/mandolin hybrid, and was based on a bouzouki, which is similar to a mandolin. In my experience, Danelectro guitars sound pretty "woody" unplugged.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 03:40:15 PM
My opinion:

The instrument is acoustic, not electric/plugged in.

The instrument has some octave sounds.

Possible guess (I know this will be controversial):

Bellzouki unplugged, close miked. This easily could have happened (Barney was practicing, BW liked the unplugged sound and went for that, everyone forgot later and assumed it was the mandolin, etc. …something like that).


I'm told Bellzoukis are relatively easy to play high up the neck, yet Barney struggles and struggles with this instrument...

If he's playing it in the way I imagine, it's pretty high up there, past where the body meets the neck (which would become more difficult on a bolt-on neck).

But this brings up an interesting point: he struggles to play it. I would think this would be relevant regardless of instrument -- he would be familiar with playing his instruments. Any chance it is not Barney after all, or is that not a possibility?

Worth noting is a Bellzouki was designed a sort of 12-string/mandolin hybrid, and was based on a boukouki, which is similar to a mandolin. In my experience, Danelectro guitars sound pretty "woody" unplugged.

In theory, it could be any of the guitarists on the session, Barney, Jerry Cole, Ray Pohlman, or Bill Pitman.

Jerry has taken credit for playing on the intro, and Barney has been credited in the third person by Brian.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2018, 04:35:55 PM
My opinion:

The instrument is acoustic, not electric/plugged in.

The instrument has some octave sounds.

Possible guess (I know this will be controversial):

Bellzouki unplugged, close miked. This easily could have happened (Barney was practicing, BW liked the unplugged sound and went for that, everyone forgot later and assumed it was the mandolin, etc. …something like that).


I'm told Bellzoukis are relatively easy to play high up the neck, yet Barney struggles and struggles with this instrument...

If he's playing it in the way I imagine, it's pretty high up there, past where the body meets the neck (which would become more difficult on a bolt-on neck).

But this brings up an interesting point: he struggles to play it. I would think this would be relevant regardless of instrument -- he would be familiar with playing his instruments. Any chance it is not Barney after all, or is that not a possibility?

Worth noting is a Bellzouki was designed a sort of 12-string/mandolin hybrid, and was based on a boukouki, which is similar to a mandolin. In my experience, Danelectro guitars sound pretty "woody" unplugged.

In theory, it could be any of the guitarists on the session, Barney, Jerry Cole, Ray Pohlman, or Bill Pitman.

Jerry has taken credit for playing on the intro, and Barney has been credited in the third person by Brian.

Technically, we should say that the intro is played by both Barney AND Jerry, since it's a two-part piece. When Barney's name was mentioned to Brian back in '96, he immediately praised him for playing the intro to WIBN, and made special note of his "ringy-ding" guitar.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 04:47:37 PM
This reminds of another interesting thing to throw in with all this:

When Jerry played on someone's cover of WIBN and didn't even get the notes right, let alone the sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBAqdUnQzjw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBAqdUnQzjw)

Great example of a guitar not sounding even in the ballpark of the original.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 05:22:28 PM
My opinion:

The instrument is acoustic, not electric/plugged in.

The instrument has some octave sounds.

Possible guess (I know this will be controversial):

Bellzouki unplugged, close miked. This easily could have happened (Barney was practicing, BW liked the unplugged sound and went for that, everyone forgot later and assumed it was the mandolin, etc. …something like that).


I'm told Bellzoukis are relatively easy to play high up the neck, yet Barney struggles and struggles with this instrument...

If he's playing it in the way I imagine, it's pretty high up there, past where the body meets the neck (which would become more difficult on a bolt-on neck).

But this brings up an interesting point: he struggles to play it. I would think this would be relevant regardless of instrument -- he would be familiar with playing his instruments. Any chance it is not Barney after all, or is that not a possibility?

Worth noting is a Bellzouki was designed a sort of 12-string/mandolin hybrid, and was based on a bouzouki, which is similar to a mandolin. In my experience, Danelectro guitars sound pretty "woody" unplugged.

Yes, "woody" and as I mentioned they are almost all semi hollow, so the danelectro models in general have a different tone plugged in and unplugged and are lightweight due to them being mostly hollow. I'm pretty sure the original teardrop shape Bellzouki was semi hollow. And, the original had the octave and normal strings reversed like a Rickenbacker.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 05:28:15 PM
Regarding Barney having problems with playing the intro phrase,  whether it was unfamiliar instrument issues or having a bad day or whatever...

Hal Blaine was messing up his entrances and transitions all over that session, and his intro was as basic and simple as Brian repeatedly sang it for him on the talkback. "Bom.....ba-bum" and Hal kept messing it up.

And it cannot be said Hal was playing an unfamiliar instrument.  :)


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 05, 2018, 05:42:30 PM
I wouldn't completely rule out a bellzouki, except I really don't think they sound all that unique.  The one time I had a chance to play one, it was unplugged, and pretty much sounded like any other 12-string.  That said, there's a sliver of possibility.

Regarding Barney having problems with playing the intro phrase,  whether it was unfamiliar instrument issues or having a bad day or whatever...

Hal Blaine was messing up his entrances and transitions all over that session, and his intro was as basic and simple as Brian repeatedly sang it for him on the talkback. "Bom.....ba-bum" and Hal kept messing it up.

And it cannot be said Hal was playing an unfamiliar instrument.  :)

Wouldn't you say Hal's issues were more due to a communication problem between he and Brian, whereas Barney knows what he's supposed to play but sucks at it.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 06:41:01 PM
I wouldn't completely rule out a bellzouki, except I really don't think they sound all that unique.  The one time I had a chance to play one, it was unplugged, and pretty much sounded like any other 12-string.  That said, there's a sliver of possibility.

Regarding Barney having problems with playing the intro phrase,  whether it was unfamiliar instrument issues or having a bad day or whatever...

Hal Blaine was messing up his entrances and transitions all over that session, and his intro was as basic and simple as Brian repeatedly sang it for him on the talkback. "Bom.....ba-bum" and Hal kept messing it up.

And it cannot be said Hal was playing an unfamiliar instrument.  :)

Wouldn't you say Hal's issues were more due to a communication problem between he and Brian, whereas Barney knows what he's supposed to play but sucks at it.

Hal did keep playing the wrong pattern repeatedly, after Brian sang it to him repeatedly, and a few of the drum fills and transitions were off time or simply wrong as well. The only thing Hal needed the headphones for was to hear the timing on the countoff, but that's not the same as playing the wrong patterns multiple times. It felt just like the deal with messing up the intro, it just didn't seem like Hal to miss cues and fills as he did on that session. You can hear the tension throughout the session as well, when Brian has to keep telling him what to play.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 06:49:13 PM
My opinion:

The instrument is acoustic, not electric/plugged in.

The instrument has some octave sounds.

Possible guess (I know this will be controversial):

Bellzouki unplugged, close miked. This easily could have happened (Barney was practicing, BW liked the unplugged sound and went for that, everyone forgot later and assumed it was the mandolin, etc. …something like that).


I'm told Bellzoukis are relatively easy to play high up the neck, yet Barney struggles and struggles with this instrument...

If he's playing it in the way I imagine, it's pretty high up there, past where the body meets the neck (which would become more difficult on a bolt-on neck).

But this brings up an interesting point: he struggles to play it. I would think this would be relevant regardless of instrument -- he would be familiar with playing his instruments. Any chance it is not Barney after all, or is that not a possibility?

Worth noting is a Bellzouki was designed a sort of 12-string/mandolin hybrid, and was based on a boukouki, which is similar to a mandolin. In my experience, Danelectro guitars sound pretty "woody" unplugged.

In theory, it could be any of the guitarists on the session, Barney, Jerry Cole, Ray Pohlman, or Bill Pitman.

Jerry has taken credit for playing on the intro, and Barney has been credited in the third person by Brian.

Technically, we should say that the intro is played by both Barney AND Jerry, since it's a two-part piece. When Barney's name was mentioned to Brian back in '96, he immediately praised him for playing the intro to WIBN, and made special note of his "ringy-ding" guitar.


I'm glad Donny mentioned it because I was thinking the same thing. Just as pure speculation - How do we know for absolute sure it was Barney playing the intro? I'll have to dig up the Brian quotes too, I do remember him saying that years before the book. But is there a possibility it was one of the other guitarists on a 12-string instead?

And I also remember Carole Kaye saying there were two 12-strings there, and I also wondered about the "ringy-ding guitar" description...the piece is a shuffle, is there anywhere else audible on the sessions or track where a mandolin-type instrument could be strumming chords like a rhythm guitar part doing the "ringy-dink-a-ringy-dink" alongside the archtop acoustic? I don't recall them, but other ears may spot them if there are any. And I remember years ago when the track was new to me thinking that a mandolin was joining in when the song hits the ritardando/slowdown section "you know it seems the more we talk about it...", when the accordions are bellows-shaking like mad, and it creates the sound of a tremolo-picked mandolin the type which you'd picture in the Godfather soundtrack. I thought it was an mandolin tremolo-picked in that cluster of instruments back then.

Just free-wheeling comments and observations I'm throwing out to consider.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2018, 07:12:24 PM
Here are the relevant Brian quotes:

In the premier issue of "Break Away with Brian Wilson" (Summer 1996), which was the BW fan club newsletter, there was an "Ask Brian" corner. Someone wrote and asked, "What is the instrument that starts 'Wouldn't It Be Nice'?" Brian's reply was, "It's two guitars - one played high up on the neck and the other one played regular."

In issue No. 4 (Fall 1997), he wrote little notes to many of the musicians who played on "Pet Sounds". For Barney Kessel, he wrote, "Thank you for your happy guitar on 'Wouldn't It Be Nice'. It brought a kind of ring-a-ding sound. It gives people a boost, a real good boost." Barney was still alive at the time. Based on this, I would be inclined to credit Barney with the dominate guitar part in the intro...whatever kind of guitar it may have been!

From the box set book, Brian on musicians -
Barney Kessel: "Wow, he was dynamite. Just a really amazing guitar player; that guy was dynamite. He played the introduction on 'Wouldn't It Be Nice'. Whew! Jazz guitar, any kind of guitar you want, he could play."


And yes, I used to think it was mandolins playing that slow part, until I read that it was the accordions doing a full-bellows shake.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2018, 07:25:21 PM
Oh, and Hal's problems with the drum entrance we're due to misunderstanding what Brian wanted, whereas Barney's problems were clearly instrument-related. :)


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 08:02:27 PM
Here are the relevant Brian quotes:

In the premier issue of "Break Away with Brian Wilson" (Summer 1996), which was the BW fan club newsletter, there was an "Ask Brian" corner. Someone wrote and asked, "What is the instrument that starts 'Wouldn't It Be Nice'?" Brian's reply was, "It's two guitars - one played high up on the neck and the other one played regular."

In issue No. 4 (Fall 1997), he wrote little notes to many of the musicians who played on "Pet Sounds". For Barney Kessel, he wrote, "Thank you for your happy guitar on 'Wouldn't It Be Nice'. It brought a kind of ring-a-ding sound. It gives people a boost, a real good boost." Barney was still alive at the time. Based on this, I would be inclined to credit Barney with the dominate guitar part in the intro...whatever kind of guitar it may have been!

From the box set book, Brian on musicians -
Barney Kessel: "Wow, he was dynamite. Just a really amazing guitar player; that guy was dynamite. He played the introduction on 'Wouldn't It Be Nice'. Whew! Jazz guitar, any kind of guitar you want, he could play."


And yes, I used to think it was mandolins playing that slow part, until I read that it was the accordions doing a full-bellows shake.

Yes, there was one of the contradictions when Brian says it was two guitars.


Oh, and Hal's problems with the drum entrance we're due to misunderstanding what Brian wanted, whereas Barney's problems were clearly instrument-related. :)


A misunderstanding? I guess Brian didn't sing it to him enough times to get "bum...da dum" happening in the intro? And how about the other sections where Hal misses cues? It's out of character because a lot of the band seemed to be on point hitting the different transitions, the tympani needed a clarification to lessen the fills then was OK, but Hal missed a few you wouldn't normally expect since he was usually rock-solid.

Maybe he was using a hybrid drum on this one.  :lol


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2018, 08:06:23 PM

Yes, there was one of the contradictions when Brian says it was two guitars.


Well, I don't really see it as a contradiction - two guitars play the intro piece, right?  The dominant one we've been discussing, which Brian credits to Barney Keseel, and then presumably Jerry Cole's electric 12-string playing the supporting role.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2018, 08:11:50 PM

Yes, there was one of the contradictions when Brian says it was two guitars.


Well, I don't really see it as a contradiction - two guitars play the intro piece, right?  The dominant one we've been discussing, which Brian credits to Barney Keseel, and then presumably Jerry Cole's electric 12-string playing the supporting role.

But do you think Brian would not know the difference between seeing Barney playing a mandolin style instrument and a guitar, and would say as much when asked as he was asked and replied to the question? If we're speculating that Brian asked Barney to detune, restring, and alter in some way this mandolin to play the intro, Brian would surely know the difference between a mandolin and a guitar if he could ask Barney such a thing on a session. And, one is about 3/4's smaller than the other lol.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2018, 09:37:53 PM

Yes, there was one of the contradictions when Brian says it was two guitars.


Well, I don't really see it as a contradiction - two guitars play the intro piece, right?  The dominant one we've been discussing, which Brian credits to Barney Keseel, and then presumably Jerry Cole's electric 12-string playing the supporting role.

But do you think Brian would not know the difference between seeing Barney playing a mandolin style instrument and a guitar, and would say as much when asked as he was asked and replied to the question? If we're speculating that Brian asked Barney to detune, restring, and alter in some way this mandolin to play the intro, Brian would surely know the difference between a mandolin and a guitar if he could ask Barney such a thing on a session. And, one is about 3/4's smaller than the other lol.

Yeah, but would he remember or feel like explaining all that 30 years later?  He had parts written for two guitars, and one of them was played by a Mando-guitar hybrid strung and tuned like a guitar, so in those short little quotes, it was easier just to say "two guitars" and "guitar with a ring-a-ding sound".


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 06, 2018, 05:29:09 AM

A misunderstanding? I guess Brian didn't sing it to him enough times to get "bum...da dum" happening in the intro? And how about the other sections where Hal misses cues? It's out of character because a lot of the band seemed to be on point hitting the different transitions, the tympani needed a clarification to lessen the fills then was OK, but Hal missed a few you wouldn't normally expect since he was usually rock-solid.

Maybe he was using a hybrid drum on this one.  :lol

I'm starting to think you're putting us on....

You really don't see a difference between having difficulty translating Brian's yelling "ka pow" and even burping what he wanted, and trying to play something that you understand how to play but it's hard?  It's not like Hal's dropping his sticks or whiffing when he aims for the snare drum.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 06, 2018, 05:30:33 AM

Yes, there was one of the contradictions when Brian says it was two guitars.


Well, I don't really see it as a contradiction - two guitars play the intro piece, right?  The dominant one we've been discussing, which Brian credits to Barney Keseel, and then presumably Jerry Cole's electric 12-string playing the supporting role.

But do you think Brian would not know the difference between seeing Barney playing a mandolin style instrument and a guitar, and would say as much when asked as he was asked and replied to the question? If we're speculating that Brian asked Barney to detune, restring, and alter in some way this mandolin to play the intro, Brian would surely know the difference between a mandolin and a guitar if he could ask Barney such a thing on a session. And, one is about 3/4's smaller than the other lol.

Yeah, but would he remember or feel like explaining all that 30 years later?  He had parts written for two guitars, and one of them was played by a Mando-guitar hybrid strung and tuned like a guitar, so in those short little quotes, it was easier just to say "two guitars" and "guitar with a ring-a-ding sound".

I mean, we've been calling it a mando-guitar all this time.  It really is more guitar than mandolin if we think about the sort of essential qualities of both instruments.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 06, 2018, 08:40:07 AM

Yes, there was one of the contradictions when Brian says it was two guitars.


Well, I don't really see it as a contradiction - two guitars play the intro piece, right?  The dominant one we've been discussing, which Brian credits to Barney Keseel, and then presumably Jerry Cole's electric 12-string playing the supporting role.

But do you think Brian would not know the difference between seeing Barney playing a mandolin style instrument and a guitar, and would say as much when asked as he was asked and replied to the question? If we're speculating that Brian asked Barney to detune, restring, and alter in some way this mandolin to play the intro, Brian would surely know the difference between a mandolin and a guitar if he could ask Barney such a thing on a session. And, one is about 3/4's smaller than the other lol.

Yeah, but would he remember or feel like explaining all that 30 years later?  He had parts written for two guitars, and one of them was played by a Mando-guitar hybrid strung and tuned like a guitar, so in those short little quotes, it was easier just to say "two guitars" and "guitar with a ring-a-ding sound".

I'm just suggesting for the discussion that if we want to speculate to the point of assuming Brian instructed Barney to make modifications to an instrument that looks nothing like a guitar, and looks everything like a mandolin, he'd know the difference between the two (which obviously he does since the mandolin shows up elsewhere on the same album IIRC) enough to state as much when asked about it. He said two guitars, one played high up the neck and the other regular, and that would be exactly how the intro would have been done with two 12-string guitars if that's what happened.

I'm just putting it on the table that there is a slight possibility Barney (or whoever else) may have been playing a Danelectro Bellzouki, which as we know from various studio photos was used in the studios at this exact time by various guitarists.

It's not enough hard evidence to dismiss anything and say Brian may have directed Barney to alter his mandolin instrument to play this part, yet dismiss how when asked about it Brian instead described what would have been "two guitars" with one played high up the neck and the other played regular.

And I also wonder at this point if a photo circa 1966 showing Barney holding a Danelectro Bellzouki in the studio had instead been included in the PS Sessions package, whether the speculation would have gone the way of saying that's what Barney played on the intro.



Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 06, 2018, 08:44:24 AM

A misunderstanding? I guess Brian didn't sing it to him enough times to get "bum...da dum" happening in the intro? And how about the other sections where Hal misses cues? It's out of character because a lot of the band seemed to be on point hitting the different transitions, the tympani needed a clarification to lessen the fills then was OK, but Hal missed a few you wouldn't normally expect since he was usually rock-solid.

Maybe he was using a hybrid drum on this one.  :lol

I'm starting to think you're putting us on....

You really don't see a difference between having difficulty translating Brian's yelling "ka pow" and even burping what he wanted, and trying to play something that you understand how to play but it's hard?  It's not like Hal's dropping his sticks or whiffing when he aims for the snare drum.

No put-on at all, just running a lot of scenarios through the process to try ruling out those which are less likely - Part of the usual process of debating and discussing in terms of research and trying to make conclusive statements when looking at history in general and trying to come to a solid conclusion, or at least a solid hypothesis after ruling out the chaff.

In this case, to my ears after hearing hours of Hal Blaine working in the studio with a myriad of artists via session tapes over the years, it felt like Hal was missing more cues and parts than he usually did, and the parts he was missing were really not that complex compared to other sessions where he'd nail it in one take. That's my opinion.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 06, 2018, 09:41:18 AM
Guitarfool, at the top of this thread, you wrote:  "However, for the film the choice was made to use another instrument, a 12-string Danelectro electric hybrid called a Bellzouki, for aesthetic reasons in that it looked more futuristic, and at the time of filming a mandolin as shown in the photo was not available to use. Again, this was firsthand information."  I read this as you're saying someone involved with the film told you that they believed that a Mando-guitar was used on the actual session - care to expand on that?  Did they say how they came to this understanding?

Also, I wish we had the scale length for that neck, but I don't see it on the auction page...




Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 06, 2018, 10:51:29 AM
Guitarfool, at the top of this thread, you wrote:  "However, for the film the choice was made to use another instrument, a 12-string Danelectro electric hybrid called a Bellzouki, for aesthetic reasons in that it looked more futuristic, and at the time of filming a mandolin as shown in the photo was not available to use. Again, this was firsthand information."  I read this as you're saying someone involved with the film told you that they believed that a Mando-guitar was used on the actual session - care to expand on that?  Did they say how they came to this understanding?

Also, I wish we had the scale length for that neck, but I don't see it on the auction page...




Scale would be helpful.  The Gold Tone Mando-Guitars range from about 14 to about 17.5, depending on the model (and which tailpiece it has).  If Barney's neck was closer to 17.5, it's really not that much shorter than, say, a Rick 325, which is like, 20.5.

If you look at my own journey of understanding--which is all here on this board, you'll see that for a long time I assumed/went-with it being a Fender XII.  The reason being it seemed like the simplest explanation.  I never thought the photo of Barney holding the mando-guitar was any evidence for it being on WIBN or even on a Beach Boys track.

But the more I listened to the session, the more I couldn't rectify the fact that the instrument doesn't sound like a 12-string guitar. 

Then GF came along with the info from Love and Mercy, and it caused me to rethink things.  If it doesn't sound like a standard guitar, maybe it just isn't a standard guitar?  I never thought it was anything like a standard mandolin, because you can hear the octave courses so obviously, even without listening to the session.  This got me thinking about something like the Vox Mandoguitar--but there are issues with that, both chronologically and organologically, again, because the open g-string moment.

But then this auction happened, and it was really GF Craig's argument that, to be advertised as being played on the session, they'd really have to have done their due diligence that convinced me that this is it.  Combined with the long oral tradition, e.g., that one reference to Kessel's son saying his dad had played a mandolin on WIBN, among other off-handed, anecdotal mentions, it really is the simplest answer.

I'm not saying it is the answer.  Just that it deserves more than a "no way."


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 06, 2018, 11:10:33 AM

Combined with the long oral tradition, e.g., that one reference to Kessel's son saying his dad had played a mandolin on WIBN, among other off-handed, anecdotal mentions, it really is the simplest answer.


That, plus the instrument in question is identified as the Gibson Mando-guitar in "I Am Brian Wilson". Not conclusive, but more weight in its favor.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 06, 2018, 11:18:44 AM

Combined with the long oral tradition, e.g., that one reference to Kessel's son saying his dad had played a mandolin on WIBN, among other off-handed, anecdotal mentions, it really is the simplest answer.


That, plus the instrument in question is identified as the Gibson Mando-guitar in "I Am Brian Wilson". Not conclusive, but more weight in its favor.


I'd forgotten about that!

Yeah, to wit, at page 178:

"On the intro I had Barney Kessel playing this really great guitar he had, a one-of-a-kind twelve-string mando-guitar built by Gibson.  It sounded like nothing else.  He played right into the board."

Brian's memoirs have traditionally needed to be read skeptically when it comes to details, but it can't be swept aside with zero consideration.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 07, 2018, 11:41:42 AM

Combined with the long oral tradition, e.g., that one reference to Kessel's son saying his dad had played a mandolin on WIBN, among other off-handed, anecdotal mentions, it really is the simplest answer.


That, plus the instrument in question is identified as the Gibson Mando-guitar in "I Am Brian Wilson". Not conclusive, but more weight in its favor.


I'd forgotten about that!

Yeah, to wit, at page 178:

"On the intro I had Barney Kessel playing this really great guitar he had, a one-of-a-kind twelve-string mando-guitar built by Gibson.  It sounded like nothing else.  He played right into the board."

Brian's memoirs have traditionally needed to be read skeptically when it comes to details, but it can't be swept aside with zero consideration.

Yes, and even in that statement from the book there is another contradiction: "He played right into the board". Barney's mando-guitar is purely acoustic, with no signs of having been "electrified" at some point. Could there have been a D'Armond or similar pickup attached as I speculated earlier? Yes - I think. But I'm not sure of their configurations or how they might be attached temporarily versus drilled into the instrument and mounted. That part of it, I have to check further.

But again, weigh even Brian's quote in the book as a contradiction between what was just sold as *the* WIBN mando-guitar which was purely acoustic in design, versus plugging something direct into the board, which an electric instrument like the Bellzouki would do.

And note the photo dating from the mid-60's of Barney holding the mando-guitar shows it mic'ed up and being played as it is - purely acoustic.

It just adds further to the doubts in my mind.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 07, 2018, 02:07:41 PM
I have to admit that I think it's the Mando-guitar, but probably mic'd rather than direct.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 07, 2018, 02:15:38 PM
I have to admit that I think it's the Mando-guitar, but probably mic'd rather than direct.

Mic-ed in the booth?


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 07, 2018, 02:35:39 PM
Also, is anybody actually a member at the auction site?  It would REALLY REALLY behoove us to see the photo of Barney holding the instrument with the background not blacked out.  I mean, I just wanna see it, but on the off chance there are, say two accordion players back there, there you go.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 07, 2018, 03:04:30 PM
I have to admit that I think it's the Mando-guitar, but probably mic'd rather than direct.

Mic-ed in the booth?

Not likely the control booth, but rather an iso booth or adjacent room. 


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 07, 2018, 03:22:01 PM
I am a member - I'm not sure if they have a non-altered version available for the public due to usage rights and all that. I'm assuming the blacked-out version is what they received in order to list for the auction but could be wrong. Did you want me to drop them a line? Might be a longshot since the auction already happened weeks ago.

Can you post the direct link where you found it, or was it just in the general listing?


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 07, 2018, 03:25:54 PM
Also, consider if Barney were mic'ed up for the session you'd hear more than just the live feed going into the echo chamber, which is what we hear most on those session tapes. You literally don't hear anything but the strings, and if it were close-mic'ed it would be reasonable to assume the mic would pick up more noise and various sounds.

The description given for a long time of this session was that the guitars were plugged in direct and were in the control room cutting the tracks due to the limited space at Gold Star on the studio floor. That's the scenario replicated in the L&M film for what it's worth.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 07, 2018, 03:28:07 PM
I am a member - I'm not sure if they have a non-altered version available for the public due to usage rights and all that. I'm assuming the blacked-out version is what they received in order to list for the auction but could be wrong. Did you want me to drop them a line? Might be a longshot since the auction already happened weeks ago.

Can you post the direct link where you found it, or was it just in the general listing?

I found a way to contact them without signing up and did so.  We'll see if they respond.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 07, 2018, 03:35:26 PM
Also, consider if Barney were mic'ed up for the session you'd hear more than just the live feed going into the echo chamber, which is what we hear most on those session tapes. You literally don't hear anything but the strings, and if it were close-mic'ed it would be reasonable to assume the mic would pick up more noise and various sounds.

The description given for a long time of this session was that the guitars were plugged in direct and were in the control room cutting the tracks due to the limited space at Gold Star on the studio floor. That's the scenario replicated in the L&M film for what it's worth.

I really think whatever it is is plugged in.  Wouldn't be surprised if the two intro instruments were coupled and plugged in to the same input, actually.

As far as a pick-up for the mando-guitar goes, I did a little research today and it seems like there were mandolin pick-ups that you could clamp on without screwing anything in, and also guitar pickups that you could temporarily affix with putty.  So it being an acoustic instrument really isn't an issue, although it is one more little step in the process.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 08, 2018, 08:00:55 PM
I am a member - I'm not sure if they have a non-altered version available for the public due to usage rights and all that. I'm assuming the blacked-out version is what they received in order to list for the auction but could be wrong. Did you want me to drop them a line? Might be a longshot since the auction already happened weeks ago.

Can you post the direct link where you found it, or was it just in the general listing?

I found a way to contact them without signing up and did so.  We'll see if they respond.

Excellent! Keep us posted, and I could send them something too if needed. I'm curious to see the full shot, and always wondered why whoever sourced it for the '96/'97 PS box project wouldn't have the full uncut shot available as well or why it has never appeared publicly (unless it has). Fingers crossed.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 08, 2018, 08:06:21 PM
Also, consider if Barney were mic'ed up for the session you'd hear more than just the live feed going into the echo chamber, which is what we hear most on those session tapes. You literally don't hear anything but the strings, and if it were close-mic'ed it would be reasonable to assume the mic would pick up more noise and various sounds.

The description given for a long time of this session was that the guitars were plugged in direct and were in the control room cutting the tracks due to the limited space at Gold Star on the studio floor. That's the scenario replicated in the L&M film for what it's worth.

I really think whatever it is is plugged in.  Wouldn't be surprised if the two intro instruments were coupled and plugged in to the same input, actually.

As far as a pick-up for the mando-guitar goes, I did a little research today and it seems like there were mandolin pick-ups that you could clamp on without screwing anything in, and also guitar pickups that you could temporarily affix with putty.  So it being an acoustic instrument really isn't an issue, although it is one more little step in the process.

I agree - With the limited number of sends on that board, it also sounds to me like both instruments' signals got sent to the echo chamber together. The decay "bounce" around the chamber and whatnot seems to be hitting both the same way.

I agreed that a pickup would be possible, but again it sticks in my mind why would they need to do all of this (like putting a pickup on a mandolin) when a stock 12-string or a Bellzouki for example would be as simple as plug-in-and-play to get the part down. And I believe both Fender and Vox and maybe more had electric mandolins on the market yet you really don't hear examples of too many of these coming from the LA studios in the mid-60's.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on December 11, 2018, 06:11:54 PM
Just received word that the photo came to the auctioneers like that, so poop.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 11, 2018, 06:22:48 PM
Just received word that the photo came to the auctioneers like that, so poop.

The hope might be that the photo in full does exist, as in there had to be something to blur...what I'm getting at is maybe we can track down whoever was the source of that photo when the PS box and booklet was being assembled, because that too was cropped from the same larger image. And the larger image exists, at least we know that now after seeing the blurred version.

Thanks for checking!

Sometimes I wonder why photos like this - especially ones we know to exist - are kept so close to the collective vest rather than just allowing interested fans to see them before it's too late.

Same goes for the 47+ minute long Good Vibrations studio footage. No reason to keep that hidden. None.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on December 25, 2018, 07:37:38 AM
Y'know, I thought it might be beneficial to check out the session tapes for OTHER songs where it sounds like it could be that the same mystery guitar was used, starting with the earliest: "My Childhood" (aka "You Still Believe In Me"), from mid-October '65. Barney and Glen were the only guitarists on that date. On this tape, we hear the following exchange between Brian and a guitarist who must be Barney (because it sure isn't Glen) on the Unsurpassed Masters boot of the Pet Sounds sessions, Vol. 1, Disc 3, Track 4, at 9:18:

Brian: “We’re starting to really sound dead on that.”

Barney: “Brian, Brian - up here, it’s going to sound choked and doesn’t speak as well. Because…”

Brian: “I know. Let’s go. I like that (kind of guitar) anyway.”

Barney: “Alright...(I'll do what I can with) my hands for ya.”
(the words in parentheses are somewhat unintelligible, so I've provided my best guest as to what was said there)

Brian's and Barney's comments here back up the notion that this was not an "ordinary" guitar, but rather one with the special "ringy-ding" quality that Brian so loved...and also one which was a bitch to play up high on the neck, even for someone with the formidable talents of Barney Kessel.

And...its use on this particular session (if indeed this is the earliest example of Barney playing it on one of Brian's productions) might indicate WHY it was used in such a manner (as a guitar rather than as a mandolin) in the first place!  Since a bicycle bell and horn were used on this session, it seems reasonable that Brian might have asked Barney if he had an instrument that was capable of producing a specifically "childlike" sound - and in response, Barney pulled out his one-of-a-kind Gibson mando-guitar, stringing and tuning it like a 12-string electric (if it wasn't already), and using it as such on that session, to get that special "tone" that a regular 12-string electric simply couldn't. EDIT: and it was definitely electrified on the "Childhood" session, indicating the use of the removable pickup discussed earlier on this thread - and the dialogue between Brian and Barney on this session seemingly occurred in the control booth, meaning Barney was plugged directly into the board. In the book that accompanies the Pet Sound Sessions box set, Barney recalled, "I remember that Glen Campbell was also on some of the sessions, and sometimes, Glen and I were in the engineering booth playing and the band was in the studio, on the other side of the glass." THIS would seemingly be one such session!

Then, Brian - now enamoured with the sound - subsequently asked Barney to use that specific guitar on "Wouldn't It Be Nice", "Hang Onto Your Ego"/"I Know There's An Answer", and "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" (if in fact it was used on those last two...it sounds to me like it was).

This may be the key to the whole mystery!


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on October 24, 2019, 09:45:13 AM
I found this!


(https://i.ibb.co/PY12pPD/money-shot.png)

Which shows Lou Morell, who, to my knowledge, never played a Beach Boys session and certainly wasn't on Pet Sounds.

Ergo, the famous shot is not of a Beach Boys session.  Not that this debunks or proves anything, just interesting to get some context!



Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 24, 2019, 01:45:14 PM
I found this!


(https://i.ibb.co/PY12pPD/money-shot.png)

Which shows Lou Morell, who, to my knowledge, never played a Beach Boys session and certainly wasn't on Pet Sounds.

Ergo, the famous shot is not of a Beach Boys session.  Not that this debunks or proves anything, just interesting to get some context!



Nice find! Well one thing it does debunk is that the cropped version of that used in the PS Sessions book showed Barney at an actual PS session. Obviously it does not. So connecting that instrument via that photo as evidence to WIBN is not possible.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: chewy on October 25, 2019, 12:14:18 AM
wait wait wait I do not not know---- Kessel plays manolin on Wouldnt it be nice? what are his other known BB session contributions?

big fan of him and i knew he played every now and then with wrecking crew, right- but i didnt know the extent to his BB session involvent. but i have all his solo albums on conteporary n stuff


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on October 25, 2019, 07:16:57 AM
wait wait wait I do not not know---- Kessel plays manolin on Wouldnt it be nice? what are his other known BB session contributions?

big fan of him and i knew he played every now and then with wrecking crew, right- but i didnt know the extent to his BB session involvent. but i have all his solo albums on conteporary n stuff

He played on a fair bit of Pet Sounds and some other stuff--

Little Girl I once knew - Dano bass
WIBN
YSBIM
LGAFA
IKTAA
IJWMFTT
Caroline, No
Trombone Dixie

Possibly on some Smile stuff--that's not my personnel wheelhouse...and possibly some earlier stuff, that I can't think of for sure off the top of my head.






Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on October 25, 2019, 08:56:41 AM
wait wait wait I do not not know---- Kessel plays manolin on Wouldnt it be nice? what are his other known BB session contributions?

big fan of him and i knew he played every now and then with wrecking crew, right- but i didnt know the extent to his BB session involvent. but i have all his solo albums on conteporary n stuff

He played on a fair bit of Pet Sounds and some other stuff--

Little Girl I once knew - Dano bass
WIBN
YSBIM
LGAFA
IKTAA
IJWMFTT
Caroline, No
Trombone Dixie

Possibly on some Smile stuff--that's not my personnel wheelhouse...and possibly some earlier stuff, that I can't think of for sure off the top of my head.






Yep...earlier stuff includes two Today! tracks:
PLEASE LET ME WONDER
KISS ME BABY
two tracks on Summer Days:
the second version of HELP ME, RHONDA
LET HIM RUN WILD

...and he's also on one SMiLE track:
LOOK (aka SONG FOR CHILDREN)

Since this is news to you, you may be interested in knowing that Howard Roberts, another noted jazz guitarist, also played on a handful of Beach Boys tracks.





Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on October 25, 2019, 12:05:16 PM
It's a slightly foreign idea, isn't?  To have these legit jazz heavies on pop records?  I have no idea who is like, a hot music act these days, but iTunes tells me that someone named "Selena Gomez" is a big seller-- Imagine is the Gomez character had, I dunno, Pat Metheny and Bill Frisell on Guitar, Richard Bona on Bass, Wynton Marsalis on trumpet, and  Dennis Chambers on drums.  I suspect my jazz people are slightly dated too, but you get the idea.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on October 25, 2019, 01:25:00 PM
Does anybody recognize the fellow on the far right here?

(http://www.larrylevinerecordingengineer.com/extimages/p_IMG951139_2.jpg)

The hair length might make this photo too late for the PS sessions, but it's a tough call, unless somebody has a better idea of when it's from, is it possible that's Jerry Cole and this is from WIBN?

It's hard to recognize Jerry Cole because the only pictures I've seen of him are from his earlier, late 50s early 60s record sleeves, and from the last 20 years.  It doesn't really look like him but he did grow a 'stache that looks a lot like that though!


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 25, 2019, 02:07:28 PM
Does anybody recognize the fellow on the far right here?

(http://www.larrylevinerecordingengineer.com/extimages/p_IMG951139_2.jpg)

The hair length might make this photo too late for the PS sessions, but it's a tough call, unless somebody has a better idea of when it's from, is it possible that's Jerry Cole and this is from WIBN?

It's hard to recognize Jerry Cole because the only pictures I've seen of him are from his earlier, late 50s early 60s record sleeves, and from the last 20 years.  It doesn't really look like him but he did grow a 'stache that looks a lot like that though!

Danny Hutton


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Ian on October 25, 2019, 06:55:49 PM
Yeah Hutton 100%


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on October 25, 2019, 07:27:54 PM
Ah, well, wishful thinking strikes again--but cool that it's Hutton.  Vis-a-vis Jerald Kolbrak, have any of you ever seen a photo of him in the studio?  Like, one?  Another example of the almost humorously bad photographic record of studio work.  Jerry Cole certainly had plenty of work, but I've never seen a photo of him in the studio.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: CenturyDeprived on October 25, 2019, 08:14:19 PM
Looking at all of these photos just makes me so grateful for the contributions of Jasper Dailey. Think about how much of the story would be a mystery without these photographs.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on October 26, 2019, 07:13:16 AM
Looking at all of these photos just makes me so grateful for the contributions of Jasper Dailey. Think about how much of the story would be a mystery without these photographs.

But consider that we've probably seen some fraction of 1% of the photos he took.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: CenturyDeprived on October 26, 2019, 11:29:17 AM
Looking at all of these photos just makes me so grateful for the contributions of Jasper Dailey. Think about how much of the story would be a mystery without these photographs.

But consider that we've probably seen some fraction of 1% of the photos he took.

I was not aware. Was there a large amount of photos that are lost or simply haven't ever been published before from these sessions?


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on October 27, 2019, 03:19:21 PM
Looking at all of these photos just makes me so grateful for the contributions of Jasper Dailey. Think about how much of the story would be a mystery without these photographs.

But consider that we've probably seen some fraction of 1% of the photos he took.

I was not aware. Was there a large amount of photos that are lost or simply haven't ever been published before from these sessions?

Well, to paraphrase Don Rumsfeld, it's a known unknown.  We know that over the course of the 6-8 years the LA studios were at their cookin' highest-volume work, there were several people taking lots of photos, your Jaspers Daily, your Hals Blaine, your Rays Avery, and others.  But even if only those three people took 50 photos each, that's still way more than the actual number of photos that are publicly accessible via the internet, I'd say.  I spend 10-20 minutes every day looking for them.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Ian on October 28, 2019, 04:05:11 AM
Well I’ve also noted that only 2% of the photos of the BBs onstage in the 60s have been published or online but the BBs just don’t have the value of say The Beatles and as a result I don’t think people see a lot of profit in scouring through their old negatives (if they even saved them)


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: Emdeeh on October 28, 2019, 06:53:37 AM
Another issue with '60s BB photos is that most fan photos would have been made with cheap Instamatic type cameras, which weren't all that great for stage photography. It was mostly the pros who had better-quality cameras.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 29, 2019, 05:37:16 AM
Don't forget the photos of Guy Webster! Between Guy and Jasper, they really did document a lot of studio sessions (and musicians in general), and sadly we've only seen a small portion of what these two photogs documented, especially from 66 to 68. Sad in many ways.

But hell, there is roughly 45-50 minutes of 1966 Good Vibrations studio session footage that exists and 99% of fans who would love to see it have only seen 5 minutes of it.

*THAT* is not right, but I digress.


Title: Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens...
Post by: c-man on October 29, 2019, 09:36:21 AM
Don't forget the photos of Guy Webster! Between Guy and Jasper, they really did document a lot of studio sessions (and musicians in general), and sadly we've only seen a small portion of what these two photogs documented, especially from 66 to 68. Sad in many ways.

But hell, there is roughly 45-50 minutes of 1966 Good Vibrations studio session footage that exists and 99% of fans who would love to see it have only seen 5 minutes of it.

*THAT* is not right, but I digress.

I wish all the great studio shots from Guy and Jasper were captioned with the song title, or at least the date...but, at least we have what we have.