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Author Topic: swdstudyvideos.com (suspended)  (Read 10799 times)
DonnyL
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« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2018, 02:15:06 PM »

This mix of "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again" is much better than the one released. Would love to see more original/vintage mixes released instead of the remixes. Thanks for sharing, Mr. Desper!
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KirkK
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« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2018, 04:05:50 PM »

These recordings are great! But I have to agree with other folks, that's not Carl on "Sail On Sailor", it's Blondie's vocal from the final version (you can even hear Carl still shadowing him on the last verse, just like on the final version, and the two voices are clearly different people... Blondie on lead and Carl answering.) My understanding is that Warner heard Holland (with "We Got Love" rather than "Sail On Sailor") and requested a "single", so the basis for the final track wouldn't have been recorded (and the lyrics not even finished, thus making a lead vocal with the final lyrics present impossible) until after they returned from Holland, right?

Plus Ricky is drumming on the final version, so how could they have cut the track during the Surf’s Up sessions, before he joined the band? I’ve listened a few times and this version of “Sail on Sailor” is just the vocals from the final version, as far as I can hear. The vocals only mix has been booted and this is the same thing, just better quality.

The text in the video also mentions "Dennis's vocal" on "4th of July" but that's Carl singing that one, not Dennis. So there are some small mistakes regarding lead vocal attribution in the video.

I'm not trying to be rude in pointing this out, this is invaluable information and audio. But since this is a scholarly piece, getting the information correct seems important, so I just want to make sure I’m not misunderstanding what’s being presented and want to contribute to its accuracy.

EDIT - I'm a longtime lurker, used to post regularly years and years ago; I hate that my first post in forever is trying to be a smarty pants!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 06:17:21 PM by KirkK » Logged
WyattFunderburk
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« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2018, 08:48:37 PM »

YESSSSSSSSS THANKS STEVE!  Hope to see you again soon!
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2018, 09:00:10 PM »

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« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 04:45:54 AM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
Jay
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« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2018, 09:51:41 PM »

I'm confused about the notes for the song Surf's Up. Is Carl singing along with Brian on the lead vocal itself(which was damaged), or only the "bygone, bygone" section?
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KirkK
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« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2018, 09:59:11 PM »

I respect all the work you did with The Beach Boys, and I agree they can sound like each other, but Dennis and Carl in the early 70s (or in the late 70s for that matter) didn’t sound THAT alike. I’m actually extremely shocked someone with such sound expertise and time spent with The Beach Boys would try to argue this point. It’s clearly Carl on “Fourth of July.” Just as the recording you posted of “Carl” singing “Sail On Sailor” is simply an a cappella mix of the final version with Blondie Chaplin on the lead vocal. I understand you think it’s something different.

I hate to argue with someone who was there, but I trust the evidence of my ears more your memory, which is certainly fallible. You can sync up the recording you posted with the final version, everything is the same. I absolutely apologize if I sound rude, but... I don’t know how else to say it. It’s not Dennis answering the vocals in the last verse as you have written, it’s Carl, just like on the released version (because it IS the released version and I can hear the vocal.) You may indeed have an early version with Carl somewhere in your possession, but it would not be with the final lyrics, and this recording is not that. As I said, Ricky Fataar is the drummer on the final version of “Sail On Sailor” and he wasn’t in the band during “Surf’s Up”’s recording (he didn’t join until after that album was released) so the way you remember just can’t be correct, I’m sorry to say.

While there are some recordings where the lead vocalist is definitely debatable, these recordings are not among those. I read over the link you posted, and for you to suggest that it’s not Blondie on the final recording, well, I can’t argue with that, as now we’re getting into fantasy world Wink

Recording dates and Beach Boys history aside, just listen to the recordings - this isn’t that Brian-or-is-it-Al at the piano in Holland recording that is absolutely debatable (Brian and Al tend to sound more similar I find than Brian, Carl, or Dennis, oddly enough!) It’s Blondie on the final version, we all know and accept that, as we can hear his voice and it’s been Blondie Chaplin’s signature vocal since it was released. And this version you posted is just the final version a capella (and it’s wonderful!) And when “Fourth of July” was released on “Thirty Years Of Good Vibrations” it was credited as Carl on vocals, and you can clearly hear it is Carl, and this is the same version.

Anywho, thanks for all your work regardless of this debate. You did amazing things with The Beach Boys and my life is all the greater for it. I hold your work in the highest regard and am thankful you are interacting with the fans and posting such detailed notes about your recordings.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 11:02:24 PM by KirkK » Logged
Jay
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« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2018, 10:23:20 PM »

I must admit, that "4th of July Development Demo" is one of the oddest things I've heard.
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Watamushi(Polly Poller)
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« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2018, 10:23:59 PM »

I searched on the web for more information about Sail, On Sailor, and the history of the song is getting to be a head-scratcher for me.

Thus far, I found this old thread from this forum (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=8405.15)

According to c-man's post on the thread above, there's a chance Sail, On Sailor, The Trader and On My Way To Sunny California (or whatever you call it) were all finished in some way before June 1972, when Holland sessions are just about to be taken place.
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Jay
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« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2018, 11:23:24 PM »

After listening to SOS a few times, I have to agree with the majority in this thread that it sounds like Blondie singing. Listen to how the word "waters" is sung. You can hear the slight South African accent.  I do hear Carl "answering" some specific words though.
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« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2018, 11:38:11 PM »


I searched on the web for more information about Sail, On Sailor, and the history of the song is getting to be a head-scratcher for me.

Thus far, I found this old thread from this forum (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=8405.15)

According to c-man's post on the thread above, there's a chance Sail, On Sailor, The Trader and On My Way To Sunny California (or whatever you call it) were all finished in some way before June 1972, when Holland sessions are just about to be taken place.


Rather than repeat what I posted here back in 2010, I'll simply recommend that interested parties check out the link above, posted by Watamushi (Polly Poller), which also includes a well researched timeline from Craig Slowinski.


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KirkK
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« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2018, 11:47:30 PM »

After listening to SOS a few times, I have to agree with the majority in this thread that it sounds like Blondie singing. Listen to how the word "waters" is sung. You can hear the slight South African accent.  I do hear Carl "answering" some specific words though.

Yep, Carl answers Blondie in the last verse, just like the original. Pull out your copy of Holland and listen to it- they’re the same lead and backing vocals. I’m just confused why so many are debating this or saying these “new” vocals are so different. Listen to them back to back with the Holland version, it’s not a mystery. They’re identical. And if we’re at the point where we’re questioning if it’s even Blondie on the final recording, I just have to accept I live in a different reality from the rest of you guys Wink

We can’t rely on memories of a recording session over actual aural evidence. Memory is fallible, and has a way of changing over time. For example, I’ve seen the band Wilco many times. I have a distinct memory of seeing them perform a particular song at an outdoor show in Nashville. I can still see and hear it in my mind’s eye and ears. But it never happened. I saw them play that song at a theater show in Cincinnati a couple years later, but the two memories have melded together in my brain over time. I only discovered this when I pulled out a recording of that Nashville show to listen to that particular song, and was shocked it wasn’t on there, researched further and found, crap, I was wrong. Now, do I trust my memory, or the recordings from those nights? Obviously the recordings, right?

Same situation. Mr. Desper may remember things one way, such as only Dennis recording “Fourth of July.” But we have a recording that is unquestionably Carl Wilson singing the song. Which do we trust? The recording, or Mr. Desper’s memory? I’ll take the recording.

Not trying to attack anyone, and I sympathize with having unreliable memories. I apologize if I’ve come across too strong.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 01:32:45 AM by KirkK » Logged
Jay
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« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2018, 11:53:05 PM »

Changing subjects for a brief moment, after listening to 4th of July as uploaded in Mr Desper's video, I believe I'm hearing Dennis doubling Carl's vocal in certain points. But Carl's is the most prominent voice.
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2018, 06:17:40 AM »

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« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 04:46:29 AM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
jackjachman
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« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2018, 07:38:27 AM »

After listening to SOS a few times, I have to agree with the majority in this thread that it sounds like Blondie singing. Listen to how the word "waters" is sung. You can hear the slight South African accent.  I do hear Carl "answering" some specific words though.

Yep, Carl answers Blondie in the last verse, just like the original. Pull out your copy of Holland and listen to it- they’re the same lead and backing vocals. I’m just confused why so many are debating this or saying these “new” vocals are so different. Listen to them back to back with the Holland version, it’s not a mystery. They’re identical. And if we’re at the point where we’re questioning if it’s even Blondie on the final recording, I just have to accept I live in a different reality from the rest of you guys Wink

We can’t rely on memories of a recording session over actual aural evidence. Memory is fallible, and has a way of changing over time. For example, I’ve seen the band Wilco many times. I have a distinct memory of seeing them perform a particular song at an outdoor show in Nashville. I can still see and hear it in my mind’s eye and ears. But it never happened. I saw them play that song at a theater show in Cincinnati a couple years later, but the two memories have melded together in my brain over time. I only discovered this when I pulled out a recording of that Nashville show to listen to that particular song, and was shocked it wasn’t on there, researched further and found, crap, I was wrong. Now, do I trust my memory, or the recordings from those nights? Obviously the recordings, right?

Same situation. Mr. Desper may remember things one way, such as only Dennis recording “Fourth of July.” But we have a recording that is unquestionably Carl Wilson singing the song. Which do we trust? The recording, or Mr. Desper’s memory? I’ll take the recording.

Not trying to attack anyone, and I sympathize with having unreliable memories. I apologize if I’ve come across too strong.

Steven, like anyone else I am extremely appreciative of you taking the time to make and post these wonderful videos that somehow manage to deepen my love for the band even more, but I have to respectfully agree with Kirk here. As you stated, this is an academic video, and all facts should be correct.

This is an a capella and organ mix of "Sail On Sailor" that's been available on Youtube for over 4 years now, taken from the official Endless Harmony DVD 5.1 isolations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2BG0cw3sVU&t=1s. As you can tell, it's the exact same lead that you have posted, but with an organ track on it as well. If this was an alternate lead of Carl singing as you say it is, people would be exploding with excitement in the comments and, quite frankly, more than likely it would've been taken down by Brother Records by now as they seem to have a strict policy about not having truly rare material being leaked onto Youtube.

Fans have been clamoring for YEARS for any alternate "Sail on Sailor" material, especially anything with Carl singing as just about everyone here is crazy for his voice. People would be posting about this revelation for years, but instead it's a vocal mix of the released song with Blondie on lead, which still sounds fantastic. That is the mix you have put into your video.

I don't have any similar video to reference in regards to why that isn't Dennis singing lead on "4th of July", but I would maybe ask that you double check with some of your peers and academic figures you noted in the beginning of your video to confirm that "Sail On Sailor" and "4th of July" aren't misattributed vocals.

Like everyone who has posted the same point on this thread, I cannot stress enough how none of this is meant maliciously or to disrespect you or any of the brilliant work you have done in your career. All of us here, especially including yourself, have spent so much time listening to this group's music, having some of these voices from the band permanently etched into our brains. We love these guys. Which is why we care about having the right information presented with the music.
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KirkK
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« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2018, 09:00:28 AM »

COMMENT to KirkK:  I think you are making my point. I have a physical tape of Carl singing the lead. I know because I recorded the lead on the multitrack, mixed the cassette from that mulittrack, and have had the cassette mix since the House Studio closed in '71. There's no wondering about it. The cassette exists and has existed before the release of SOS on Holland. Now if you compare the a cappella performance of Carl's in a second-by-second comparison with the vocal on the Holland album, they are very close. I never gave it much thought, that is when I heard the finished SOS from Holland, saying to myself that Blondie delivered a performance vary similar to the one I was use to hearing when we worked on SOS during Surf's Up. But with everyone saying that the cassette is Blondie because it sounds like the album, and I know it's Carl because of the period that I've owed the cassette (and because I made it and have lived with it from the beginning of the song) I've made a more complete comparison -- side-by-side -- and found the cassette and the album sounding the same. So, I cannot help but questioning, what gives?
~swd

With respect, I think it's simply that the cassette you have is not what you think it is. Somewhere in the past 47 years, you may have forgotten something, mislabelled something, or otherwise made some sort of mistake that has now lead you to believe this tape is something that it isn't, which consequently has you questioning things that really aren't a matter of debate. The Holland version is Blondie Chaplin, that is not debatable. I know Blondie's voice, as millions of others do. If you are unable to hear his voice and know it is him, just like you cannot hear that it is Carl Wilson singing the version of "4th of July" you attribute to Dennis, then, as much as I sound like a jerk saying this, you just aren't able to tell the Beach Boys' singing voices apart as well as many fans can (sorry that sounded harsh!) I've outlined historical reasons why this recording can't be what you say it is, and if you want to discount those, you're welcome to. But you cannot discount the recording itself. It's not "close" to the Holland version, or "similar" or "sound the same" - it is 100% exactly the same, lead and backing vocals. I've had the same vocals only recording since at least 2012 on my hard drive in lower quality. I'm happy to send it to you privately if you'd like.

Jack's post above was much more eloquent than I have been (thank you Jack!). I am not trying to pick a fight with you - I can't believe I'm arguing online with you, and apologize for being blunt or rude. I respect everything you have done and am extremely grateful for it, but as Jack said, as a passionate Beach Boys fan, I care about accuracy. And you're simply jumping through hoops making mysteries out of things that are not mysteries. The only mystery is why you've come to believe a tape with the final Holland vocals for "Sail On Sailor" is from 1971.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 09:06:06 AM by KirkK » Logged
SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2018, 09:20:47 AM »

Is it that important in the greater scheme of things. Mr. Desper worked his ass off with Dr. Conner for a FREE book!
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« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2018, 10:30:14 AM »

Is it that important in the greater scheme of things. Mr. Desper worked his ass off with Dr. Conner for a FREE book!

Absolutely SMiLE Brian.
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« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2018, 10:30:59 AM »

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« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 04:47:18 AM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2018, 10:47:51 AM »

Is it that important in the greater scheme of things. Mr. Desper worked his ass off with Dr. Conner for a FREE book!

Absolutely SMiLE Brian.
Didn’t Mr. Desper work on his book with terrible pneumonia? Roll Eyes
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2018, 12:47:11 PM »

Oooooh boy, this is a hot potato, but I guess since no one else has grabbed it, I'll be the one. Stephen, if you were take a moment to step back and not let your own personal bias get in the way, you would see that there is no newfound "mystery" about the well-documented and extremely obvious fact that Blondie Chaplin is the singer of the official studio version of "Sail On Sailor” on the Holland album, a point no has disputed for 45 years. It would be like someone questioning if it was in fact Al Jardine who sang “God Only Knows” on Pet Sounds. To be frank, it's a bit bizarre to have somebody closely associated with the group question the credit accuracy of a famous studio recording that has been a cherished song for decades and what is most likely THE Blondie Chaplin performance, all based on a piece of evidence that is clearly no longer what it is labelled to be. No one is disputing that you had a tape of Carl singing "Sail On Sailor" at some point, it's existence has been much discussed. The only "mystery" here is how your tape of Carl singing got replaced with one of Blondie singing, as has clearly happened here. You yourself point out how you lent the tape to Brother Records a few times, so it has been out of your possession in the past, where anything could've happened to it. Someone gave you back the wrong tape, or accidentally replaced the Carl vocal with the Blondie vocal. Accidents happen and that is clearly what happened here.

It's been my understanding that Blondie has always had immense pride for that song that he sang his friggin’ heart out on. Are you saying that pride might be misguided because he might not be the lead singer to a song that everyone here knows him from? Nobody has ever made the assertion before that Carl could be the singer of the released version of "Sail On Sailor", a popular song for over 40 years, because anyone who listens to it would tell you otherwise. This makes me question the validity of other topics you have written about in your book. If someone wrote a scholarly book on the Beach Boys and stated "to my ears, it's Bruce Johnston singing 'Forever' on Sunflower", why would I believe any other similar points they've made?

Just listen to their live performances from the era, clearly sung by Blondie. Same guy who sang the version in the studio, a defining vocal for a stellar artist. If we were just discussing this in a random thread with other users on this site, I probably wouldn't bother to write this much about it. But when you have an important figure to the group like yourself posting a study video used for academic purposes, I can think of no greater time to stress an extremely simple truth.

And not that I think this is the reason behind your point of view, but it would be fine to be wrong about this! Happens to everybody! None of us would think any less of you for having a misunderstanding with regards to a misattributing a vocal. History can be a tricky thing to get 100% correct, and as all of these voices in both this thread and the one at petsoundsforum can tell you, it is the credited singer, Blondie Chaplin, on the both the studio recording of the song we all know and love and the a capella mix you have that has been bootlegged for years. There is simply no discussion beyond that.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 08:41:51 PM by jackjachman » Logged
SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2018, 01:14:33 PM »

This “fact” correction is reaching AGD territory...
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 01:16:50 PM by SMiLE Brian » Logged

And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2018, 01:39:10 PM »

Thanks to the new additions - Mr. Desper & Mr. Conner - it's cool to read the info going with them. I'd like to check them again with better equipment.
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« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2018, 02:00:55 PM »

Another thing to consider: the history of the song is extremely murky, but a substantial amount of the lyrics in the version released on Holland were rewritten by Jack Rieley, and I was under the impression that Jack's input didn't come until after the Holland album was initially rejected in 1972. I've seen Van Dyke mention that those convoluted Rieley-ish bridge lyrics were only added after Van suggested they dust the song off and a couple of other sources mention him as being the last collaborator to touch the song. If that's the case, then how can this a capella mix be the same one that was put to a casette in 1971?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 02:01:37 PM by wjcrerar » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2018, 02:48:31 PM »

At this juncture I'd simply like to once again let Stephen Desper know how much I and others appreciate his study videos and the fact that he is willing to spend time posting on both the SS and PS boards.



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« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2018, 03:27:22 PM »

At this juncture I'd simply like to once again let Stephen Desper know how much I and others appreciate his study videos and the fact that he is willing to spend time posting on both the SS and PS boards.



I second that.
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