The Smiley Smile Message Board

Fantastic! I've watched "Til I Die" and "Surf's Up" segments so far, will definitely watch the new addition in full when I get home and can hook up decent speakers or my studio 'phones.

Amazing sounds and details. Confession...I could listen to "Til I Die" on an endless loop for hours and never tire of it. It was *great* to hear the details of how the sounds were recorded, especially the group vocals.

Amazing.

Finally - some GOOD news!!

I skipped right ahead to the "Fourth Of July" demo/development - AMAZING!  
EDIT: just saw your note about Kathy Dragon maybe playing the flute - thanks.

Very exciting. I can hardly wait to get home to dig in. Thank you!

Wonderful (oops,  wrong album ;D). Thanks, Steve!

Thx so much, Stephen. Looking forward to this.

Oh my gaaaaaaad.

Thank you Mr Desper and Mr Conner!!!!!! Can’t wait to get home and listen

Great news!

‍

That version of WIBNTLA is revelatory. Thank you for this.

Stephen - Absolutely brilliant. Jaw-dropping.

Listening right now to Sail On Sailor a capella. All I can say is wow. A truly terrific track heard in a mind-blowing perspective. Wow.

Just listened to Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again demo. Revelatory indeed. Your comments about this track, had it been handled and released the right way, are spot-on. I think most fans would agree 100% with your opinion.

Every version I've heard, Dennis is singing his heart and soul out on these vocals. It feels like a similar feeling that Brian expressed regarding Pet Sounds, how he had to get this music out of his soul for the people to hear. This is Dennis just baring his soul. Even on this demo, he's going all out. Again...wow.

It still amazes me how this track sat on the shelf for so long.

Imagine this track - not just as a single - but on the album itself, in place of another lesser song. History changer for sure.

The mix of "Take Good Care of Your Feet" is amazing. So many little details that I never heard before, or consciously realised were there. This is a good example of how The Beach Boys could be what I call "simplistically complicated". 

Stephen - Thank you so much for posting Recording the Beach Boys Part 2. I've been anxiously awaiting it's appearance in your Desper Study Videos collection, and it was well worth the wait. Thank you again for taking the time and effort to provide fans with this wonderful resource.

I do have a questing regarding "Sail On Sailor a Capella - Carl Wilson Lead Vocal". I hear Blondie Chaplin singing the lead on that one, so are you saying that if one listens carefully Carl's voice can be heard under his, or just that the listener should note how Blondie's phrasing on this track was heavily influenced by Carl's original phrasing?

WIBNTLA sounds majestic, wow!!

SOS doesn't sound like Carl on lead to my ears.

I agree. Sounds like Blondie to my ears.

Great news! Thanks Stephen and Mike C.! I'll listen later today when I have time. Can't wait for that

.

Great stuff Mr. Desper!

Thank you so much Mr Desper! You treat us to many wonderful things I never thought I'd hear.

I'm through with "Side one" of Surf's Up. Really interesting and fascinating. To hear which sound was recorded by what instrument or item and in which way just makes the whole songs come to life in a different way. Man, you just want to be there and be part of the recording process; it must've been a lot of fun and creativity

Cannot wait to devour these.

Thank you again SO much, Stephen.

Out of curiosity, how much of the BBs' studio catalog had you personally listened to before you started working with them? I wonder how much of a revelation their talent was when you started working with them, or if that was something you already were familiar with.

.

This mix of "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again" is much better than the one released. Would love to see more original/vintage mixes released instead of the remixes. Thanks for sharing, Mr. Desper!

These recordings are great! But I have to agree with other folks, that's not Carl on "Sail On Sailor", it's Blondie's vocal from the final version (you can even hear Carl still shadowing him on the last verse, just like on the final version, and the two voices are clearly different people... Blondie on lead and Carl answering.) My understanding is that Warner heard Holland (with "We Got Love" rather than "Sail On Sailor") and requested a "single", so the basis for the final track wouldn't have been recorded (and the lyrics not even finished, thus making a lead vocal with the final lyrics present impossible) until after they returned from Holland, right?

Plus Ricky is drumming on the final version, so how could they have cut the track during the Surf’s Up sessions, before he joined the band? I’ve listened a few times and this version of “Sail on Sailor” is just the vocals from the final version, as far as I can hear. The vocals only mix has been booted and this is the same thing, just better quality.

The text in the video also mentions "Dennis's vocal" on "4th of July" but that's Carl singing that one, not Dennis. So there are some small mistakes regarding lead vocal attribution in the video.

I'm not trying to be rude in pointing this out, this is invaluable information and audio. But since this is a scholarly piece, getting the information correct seems important, so I just want to make sure I’m not misunderstanding what’s being presented and want to contribute to its accuracy.

EDIT - I'm a longtime lurker, used to post regularly years and years ago; I hate that my first post in forever is trying to be a smarty pants!

YESSSSSSSSS THANKS STEVE!  Hope to see you again soon!

.

I'm confused about the notes for the song Surf's Up. Is Carl singing along with Brian on the lead vocal itself(which was damaged), or only the "bygone, bygone" section?

I respect all the work you did with The Beach Boys, and I agree they can sound like each other, but Dennis and Carl in the early 70s (or in the late 70s for that matter) didn’t sound THAT alike. I’m actually extremely shocked someone with such sound expertise and time spent with The Beach Boys would try to argue this point. It’s clearly Carl on “Fourth of July.” Just as the recording you posted of “Carl” singing “Sail On Sailor” is simply an a cappella mix of the final version with Blondie Chaplin on the lead vocal. I understand you think it’s something different.

I hate to argue with someone who was there, but I trust the evidence of my ears more your memory, which is certainly fallible. You can sync up the recording you posted with the final version, everything is the same. I absolutely apologize if I sound rude, but... I don’t know how else to say it. It’s not Dennis answering the vocals in the last verse as you have written, it’s Carl, just like on the released version (because it IS the released version and I can hear the vocal.) You may indeed have an early version with Carl somewhere in your possession, but it would not be with the final lyrics, and this recording is not that. As I said, Ricky Fataar is the drummer on the final version of “Sail On Sailor” and he wasn’t in the band during “Surf’s Up”’s recording (he didn’t join until after that album was released) so the way you remember just can’t be correct, I’m sorry to say.

While there are some recordings where the lead vocalist is definitely debatable, these recordings are not among those. I read over the link you posted, and for you to suggest that it’s not Blondie on the final recording, well, I can’t argue with that, as now we’re getting into fantasy world ;)

Recording dates and Beach Boys history aside, just listen to the recordings - this isn’t that Brian-or-is-it-Al at the piano in Holland recording that is absolutely debatable (Brian and Al tend to sound more similar I find than Brian, Carl, or Dennis, oddly enough!) It’s Blondie on the final version, we all know and accept that, as we can hear his voice and it’s been Blondie Chaplin’s signature vocal since it was released. And this version you posted is just the final version a capella (and it’s wonderful!) And when “Fourth of July” was released on “Thirty Years Of Good Vibrations” it was credited as Carl on vocals, and you can clearly hear it is Carl, and this is the same version.

Anywho, thanks for all your work regardless of this debate. You did amazing things with The Beach Boys and my life is all the greater for it. I hold your work in the highest regard and am thankful you are interacting with the fans and posting such detailed notes about your recordings.

I must admit, that "4th of July Development Demo" is one of the oddest things I've heard.

I searched on the web for more information about Sail, On Sailor, and the history of the song is getting to be a head-scratcher for me.

Thus far, I found this old thread from this forum (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=8405.15)

According to c-man's post on the thread above, there's a chance Sail, On Sailor, The Trader and On My Way To Sunny California (or whatever you call it) were all finished in some way before June 1972, when Holland sessions are just about to be taken place.

After listening to SOS a few times, I have to agree with the majority in this thread that it sounds like Blondie singing. Listen to how the word "waters" is sung. You can hear the slight South African accent.  I do hear Carl "answering" some specific words though.

Rather than repeat what I posted here back in 2010, I'll simply recommend that interested parties check out the link above, posted by Watamushi (Polly Poller), which also includes a well researched timeline from Craig Slowinski.

Yep, Carl answers Blondie in the last verse, just like the original. Pull out your copy of Holland and listen to it- they’re the same lead and backing vocals. I’m just confused why so many are debating this or saying these “new” vocals are so different. Listen to them back to back with the Holland version, it’s not a mystery. They’re identical. And if we’re at the point where we’re questioning if it’s even Blondie on the final recording, I just have to accept I live in a different reality from the rest of you guys ;)

We can’t rely on memories of a recording session over actual aural evidence. Memory is fallible, and has a way of changing over time. For example, I’ve seen the band Wilco many times. I have a distinct memory of seeing them perform a particular song at an outdoor show in Nashville. I can still see and hear it in my mind’s eye and ears. But it never happened. I saw them play that song at a theater show in Cincinnati a couple years later, but the two memories have melded together in my brain over time. I only discovered this when I pulled out a recording of that Nashville show to listen to that particular song, and was shocked it wasn’t on there, researched further and found, crap, I was wrong. Now, do I trust my memory, or the recordings from those nights? Obviously the recordings, right?

Same situation. Mr. Desper may remember things one way, such as only Dennis recording “Fourth of July.” But we have a recording that is unquestionably Carl Wilson singing the song. Which do we trust? The recording, or Mr. Desper’s memory? I’ll take the recording.

Not trying to attack anyone, and I sympathize with having unreliable memories. I apologize if I’ve come across too strong.

Changing subjects for a brief moment, after listening to 4th of July as uploaded in Mr Desper's video, I believe I'm hearing Dennis doubling Carl's vocal in certain points. But Carl's is the most prominent voice.

.

Steven, like anyone else I am extremely appreciative of you taking the time to make and post these wonderful videos that somehow manage to deepen my love for the band even more, but I have to respectfully agree with Kirk here. As you stated, this is an academic video, and all facts should be correct.

This is an a capella and organ mix of "Sail On Sailor" that's been available on Youtube for over 4 years now, taken from the official Endless Harmony DVD 5.1 isolations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2BG0cw3sVU&t=1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2BG0cw3sVU&t=1s). As you can tell, it's the exact same lead that you have posted, but with an organ track on it as well. If this was an alternate lead of Carl singing as you say it is, people would be exploding with excitement in the comments and, quite frankly, more than likely it would've been taken down by Brother Records by now as they seem to have a strict policy about not having truly rare material being leaked onto Youtube.

Fans have been clamoring for YEARS for any alternate "Sail on Sailor" material, especially anything with Carl singing as just about everyone here is crazy for his voice. People would be posting about this revelation for years, but instead it's a vocal mix of the released song with Blondie on lead, which still sounds fantastic. That is the mix you have put into your video.

I don't have any similar video to reference in regards to why that isn't Dennis singing lead on "4th of July", but I would maybe ask that you double check with some of your peers and academic figures you noted in the beginning of your video to confirm that "Sail On Sailor" and "4th of July" aren't misattributed vocals.

Like everyone who has posted the same point on this thread, I cannot stress enough how none of this is meant maliciously or to disrespect you or any of the brilliant work you have done in your career. All of us here, especially including yourself, have spent so much time listening to this group's music, having some of these voices from the band permanently etched into our brains. We love these guys. Which is why we care about having the right information presented with the music.

With respect, I think it's simply that the cassette you have is not what you think it is. Somewhere in the past 47 years, you may have forgotten something, mislabelled something, or otherwise made some sort of mistake that has now lead you to believe this tape is something that it isn't, which consequently has you questioning things that really aren't a matter of debate. The Holland version is Blondie Chaplin, that is not debatable. I know Blondie's voice, as millions of others do. If you are unable to hear his voice and know it is him, just like you cannot hear that it is Carl Wilson singing the version of "4th of July" you attribute to Dennis, then, as much as I sound like a jerk saying this, you just aren't able to tell the Beach Boys' singing voices apart as well as many fans can (sorry that sounded harsh!) I've outlined historical reasons why this recording can't be what you say it is, and if you want to discount those, you're welcome to. But you cannot discount the recording itself. It's not "close" to the Holland version, or "similar" or "sound the same" - it is 100% exactly the same, lead and backing vocals. I've had the same vocals only recording since at least 2012 on my hard drive in lower quality. I'm happy to send it to you privately if you'd like.

Jack's post above was much more eloquent than I have been (thank you Jack!). I am not trying to pick a fight with you - I can't believe I'm arguing online with you, and apologize for being blunt or rude. I respect everything you have done and am extremely grateful for it, but as Jack said, as a passionate Beach Boys fan, I care about accuracy. And you're simply jumping through hoops making mysteries out of things that are not mysteries. The only mystery is why you've come to believe a tape with the final Holland vocals for "Sail On Sailor" is from 1971.

Is it that important in the greater scheme of things. Mr. Desper worked his ass off with Dr. Conner for a FREE book!

Absolutely SMiLE Brian.

.

Didn’t Mr. Desper work on his book with terrible pneumonia? ::)

Oooooh boy, this is a hot potato, but I guess since no one else has grabbed it, I'll be the one. Stephen, if you were take a moment to step back and not let your own personal bias get in the way, you would see that there is no newfound "mystery" about the well-documented and extremely obvious fact that Blondie Chaplin is the singer of the official studio version of "Sail On Sailor” on the Holland album, a point no has disputed for 45 years. It would be like someone questioning if it was in fact Al Jardine who sang “God Only Knows” on Pet Sounds. To be frank, it's a bit bizarre to have somebody closely associated with the group question the credit accuracy of a famous studio recording that has been a cherished song for decades and what is most likely THE Blondie Chaplin performance, all based on a piece of evidence that is clearly no longer what it is labelled to be. No one is disputing that you had a tape of Carl singing "Sail On Sailor" at some point, it's existence has been much discussed. The only "mystery" here is how your tape of Carl singing got replaced with one of Blondie singing, as has clearly happened here. You yourself point out how you lent the tape to Brother Records a few times, so it has been out of your possession in the past, where anything could've happened to it. Someone gave you back the wrong tape, or accidentally replaced the Carl vocal with the Blondie vocal. Accidents happen and that is clearly what happened here.

It's been my understanding that Blondie has always had immense pride for that song that he sang his friggin’ heart out on. Are you saying that pride might be misguided because he might not be the lead singer to a song that everyone here knows him from? Nobody has ever made the assertion before that Carl could be the singer of the released version of "Sail On Sailor", a popular song for over 40 years, because anyone who listens to it would tell you otherwise. This makes me question the validity of other topics you have written about in your book. If someone wrote a scholarly book on the Beach Boys and stated "to my ears, it's Bruce Johnston singing 'Forever' on Sunflower", why would I believe any other similar points they've made?

Just listen to their live performances from the era, clearly sung by Blondie. Same guy who sang the version in the studio, a defining vocal for a stellar artist. If we were just discussing this in a random thread with other users on this site, I probably wouldn't bother to write this much about it. But when you have an important figure to the group like yourself posting a study video used for academic purposes, I can think of no greater time to stress an extremely simple truth.

And not that I think this is the reason behind your point of view, but it would be fine to be wrong about this! Happens to everybody! None of us would think any less of you for having a misunderstanding with regards to a misattributing a vocal. History can be a tricky thing to get 100% correct, and as all of these voices in both this thread and the one at petsoundsforum can tell you, it is the credited singer, Blondie Chaplin, on the both the studio recording of the song we all know and love and the a capella mix you have that has been bootlegged for years. There is simply no discussion beyond that.

This “fact” correction is reaching AGD territory...

Thanks to the new additions - Mr. Desper & Mr. Conner - it's cool to read the info going with them. I'd like to check them again with better equipment.

.

At this juncture I'd simply like to once again let Stephen Desper know how much I and others appreciate his study videos and the fact that he is willing to spend time posting on both the SS and PS boards.

I second that.

^ thirded

Fourthed.

I really enjoyed reading about how recording works in analog, as well as hearing the audio goodies.

Fifthed.  I am extraordinarily grateful for Stephen's efforts in presenting these videos to us.

Sixthed. (ok these aren't words anymore).

Ah but they are: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sixthed

And seventhed.

Yes.

Thanks to Mr Desper for all his hard work.

I'll be more than happy to heartedly third that.  :rock

Long post warning here, right up front! It goes without saying that Stephen is, despite his protestations otherwise, a central figure in the most fascinating period of the Beach Boys' collective creativity--and was clearly a catalyst for it. But we should say it again, and be thankful for so much amazing detail that he's provided about the music produced by the group from 1968-73, most of which he was directly involved in committing to tape. The latest, just-released version of his book via Vimeo and the tremendous assistance of Mike Conner, is manna from Heaven for Beach Boys fans.

The SAIL ON SAILOR mystery probably can't be solved--and there's clearly more to it than the issue of the lead vocal. Craig's 2010 discussion of the song's genesis has some details that it would be interesting for Stephen to comment upon. Let's take this opportunity to bring that discussion over to this thread for that purpose...here's Craig:

Brian wrote the basic "gospel" piano vamp heard in the intro & verses sometime in 1970, and Tandyn Almer probably helped with the melody and/or possibly added the music for the "B" section, if indeed he was involved at this stage.  Then Van Dyke Parks came over one day, and came up with the "Sail on, Sail on sailor" hookline.  After attempting to get Brian to write a bridge, Van Dyke wrote one himself and taught the chords to Brian.  Brian apparently either didn't tell Van that Tandyn had helped him with the song previously, or he mentioned it so offhandedly that Van later forgot it, or Tandyn's involvement came later (or Brian simply added Tandyn's name to the credits as a "gift").  This was probably late December 1970, while the other Beach Boys were (coincidentally enough) on tour in Holland (which would explain Van Dyke's recollection, decades later, that the Boys were in the Netherlands when he and Brian wrote the song).  According to one observer who heard the cassette tape made of Brian and Van's songwriting session, the lyrics "Fill your sails with fortitude, and ride her stormy waves" graced the melody at this point.  

A short time later, Brian offered the song to Danny Hutton for Three Dog Night.  Danny called Ray Kennedy over to his house, and Ray worked with Brian there for three (probably cocaine-fueled) days, composing a complete set of lyrics (Ray recalls this as still being 1970).  Once again, either Brian didn't tell Ray that he had already worked on the song with both Tandyn and Van Dyke, or he mentioned it so offhandedly that Ray later forgot it, which explains why Brian and Ray are the only two songwriters credited on the KGB and Ray Kennedy solo versions.  It is possible that Tandyn's participation in the song's creation dates to this point in time, however since his involvement was musical rather than lyrical (according to the official songwriters' credits), the earlier date would seem more likely.  Brian and Ray then went into the studio with Three Dog Night and cut a basic track, but Brian changed his mind and freaked out, stating that he only wanted Van Dyke or Ray to sing this song, and he destroyed the master tape.  

What's being described here are songwriting sessions, at which it's virtually certain that Stephen was not present. This is all colorful material and is heavily tied into the "mad Brian" trope--which is something that Stephen doesn't dismiss as part of Brian's behavior pattern, but is something that he characterizes in Part Two as something that did happen upon occasion (the "Til I Die" lead vocal incident).

What's clear from Craig's account is that we do still have some way of verifying this story. Danny Hutton could tell us if Three Dog Night ever worked on a version of SOS.

Now Stephen's recollection is that a version of SOS was underway sometime in 1971. No reference to this can be found in Andrew's session log listing (don't have Badman's book handy, so someone else will have to determine if he lists a '71 session for SOS). I think Stephen might want to revisit his memory about any salient details about that '71 recording session. This is clearly the missing link in the narrative.

I also think it would be very useful if Stephen would be willing to make available the full recording of SOS that he had on that cassette, and not just the a cappella version that concludes Part Two. If we presume that the instrumental arrangement is from 1971, we can then at least surmise that the band created a version that was able to be offered to the FIVE SUMMER STORIES folks in the first half of 1972. Here are Craig's notes on that:

The plot thickens even further with the recently surfaced report that "Sail On Sailor" (along with "The Trader" and the third part of the "California Saga" suite) was given by Brian to the producers of the cult surfer film "Five Summer Stories", and was used in the soundtrack of that movie, which premiered no later than June 1972...a full five months before those Village Recorders sessions!  Subsequent prints used for the VHS and DVD home video releases replaced the Beach Boys' music with that of the band Honk (who toured with The Beach Boys and recorded at Brother Studios), but early VHS and DVD copies do contain the Boys' music; the versions of these songs used in the film's soundtrack (at least on these VHS and DVD versions) are said to be identical to the mixes released on Holland (although in some cases edited down in length).  The only logical explanation for that would be that the film, when it premiered in the first half of 1972, contained some recent Beach Boys' music (likely from the Surf's Up and So Tough albums), but not the three Holland tracks...these were presumably added to the soundtrack for a later theatrical re-release, possibly in late '72 (which would still be prior to the Holland album's official release in January '73).

Certainly versions of these songs could have been in the works for awhile. We should ask Stephen if he has any recollection of "The Trader" or "California" in terms of session work.  My guess is that these two songs probably made it into production somewhere after the SO TOUGH sessions but before the band packed up for Holland. These early versions might have been what was offered to the FIVE SUMMER STORIES producers--absent the ability to listen to that original soundtrack, of course, we'll never know for sure. This is where Ed Roach and several others might search their memories and try to recall what they heard: were these full songs or snippets...were they backing tracks only? A followup to the producers didn't seem to produce any further information in 2010; is it still possible to make another attempt to reach them for clarification? Specifically, we need to know what songs were actually on the original version of the documentary...several Amazon purchasers of the DVD specifically mention missing the BBs music, so we know that some music was definitely there.

Now the rest of the story brings us back into the mysteries surrounding the released version of the song and what changes were made after the '71 sessions that Stephen recalls. Here's Craig on that:

Two years later, when The Beach Boys needed a "single" for their Holland album, Van Dyke took the rough cassette from his songwriting session with Brian over to Warner Brothers, and convinced the label that the song had "hit" potential.  Van was apparently unaware that anyone else had written lyrics for the tune as of yet.  It was probably at this point that Jack Rieley wrote an essentially new set of lyrics, keeping only about 8 words from Ray Kennedy's original attempt.  

What remains mysterious, though, is when the final version of the song was actually recorded...Desper claims to have recorded a Beach Boys version at Brian's home studio in late 1971, however the recollections of Blondie Chaplin, Ricky Fataar, and Alan Jardine (which are supported by evidence on the actual multi-track tape masters and console strips) point to the final version being a product of the November '72 Village Recorders sessions.  Based on Desper's description below, a likely scenario is that the original piano track from the version he recorded was later used as the foundaton for the reworked Village Recorders master, and that the VSO notation on the 11/29/72 tape box (referring to Variable Speed Oscillation) explains the difference in tempo that Desper remembers existing between the two versions.

"To my ears, the first version was more polished with more production value. What came out was more funky-downhome. Only the basic bass parts are heard. The track is only the original piano and drums with a new guitar part. I remember the song being a tad slower. I think some of the background parts were lost or not included. I miss a vocal background that moved along with the song like a wave lapping against a boat. There was more there than oohs and aahs in the version I remember. There were Breakaway-type inversions in the harmonies - like the inversions in the Hey Stevie version before the guitar vamp (Great version! Love the vamp!). I had a delayed echo flap thing going on the snare …. A lead vocal fugue answer part is gone. The horn section is inaudible with the trombone moots going boo-oop. The backgrounds that did get recorded sound thin to me. There was more to the song before it left these shores. None of that is in the released version. The words on the one I recorded were by, I thought, Van Dyke Parks, not the Jack Rieley and Ray Kennedy re-write. Carl sang a hefty, full-bodied lead. Except for the words, it was more like the version cut by Hey Stevie." (Desper)

The question remains, though, as to why the group would bother recording new vocals (especially the lead) when a full lead vocal (sung by Carl) already existed on the Desper version.  The likely explanation for that, based on Desper's recollection of "his" version featuring different lyrics, is that Rieley rewrote the words sometime after the recording of the first (Desper) version, and the group (or Rieley) wanted the new words on the released version, and so the vocals were redone.  Interestingly, Desper recently played a rough mix of the song he has in his possession over the phone to a fan, and this mix reportedly sounds very similar to the released version, except that it has different "wave-like" background vocals in the verses...but Blondie Chaplin's lead is said to be firmly in place!

Now, shouldn't the version Stephen describes being on his cassette show all of those different arrangement characteristics, differences in "feel," etc.? The only way for us to evaluate that is to hear the full song on Stephen's cassette, and not merely the vocals.

What we know from listening to the version on Part Two is as follows: 1) The lyrics include Jack Reiley's changes. 2) Carl is singing the counter-melody or "response" portions. 3) The other backing vocals sound like the ones on the released version, albeit much more prominently displayed in the a cappella mix. 4) The vocal inflections of the lead singer on this tape seem (to this ear, and many others) to be identical to the released version.

Clearly Stephen's '71 version should have a different instrumental arrangement in some sonically demonstrable way from what has become familiar to all of us on the released version. So the first order of business, if Stephen is amenable, is for us to audit the full (vocal and instrumental) version of the song on that cassette.

The rest may never be resolvable, but I submit that this is the first place we can start.

--A semi-unrelated question that hopefully can be answered in this context: the instrumental version of SOS on the HAWTHORNE compilation--which I must admit is one of my favorite "Stack-O-Tracks"-type artifact--is IIRC not considered to be the final backing track. (At least that's the hearsay I remember about it.) Can anyone clarify that for us? It might be interested if Stephen would also make an isolated instrumental version of what he has on his cassette, so we can compare it to what was released on HAWTHORNE.

Eighthed! (Just saying...but I'm really looking forward to check out Mr. Desper's video in details, as well as other videos I haven't checked out properly.)

Anyway, I was informed by a fellow BB fan in Japan on Twitter that Rob Fraboni, who engineered Sail, On Sailor, once said that the FINAL version of the song was mixed as early as Spring 1972. Does anyone have the source for this?

I'm going to be in the very wee minority and say I hear something different on SOS, leading to the possibility of Carl singing in a very different style, and it may just be my imagination, but the vocal seems like it's going a bit fast near the end. The backing vocals seem much fuller too.
One question, if this is from a cassette, why does it sound like CD quality?
BTW, I love the matrix effect of the matrixed Surf's up songs.

Just to add, speaking of Holland, the history of Funky Pretty seems to be murky as well.

I think it may possibly be as simple as Mr Desper confusing one cassette tape for another and thinking he's describing one tape, while another one was used for the study video.

^ That can definitely happen. Wish I could chime in otherwise but I can’t play this on my iPhone and I won’t have WiFi access for at least another month!

To quote Carly Simon (a personal fave of mine):  Anticipation...

.

COMMENT to fan jackjachman:  Believe me, after working on this book since 1998 and now finally getting the second part out, I am not happy about the response. I’m sorry I even included SOS and will figure out a solution.

I know this song, from it's beginning as a recording production to its end in 1971. That version was mostly recorded at the House Studio, including vocals. It is from that multi-track that I pulled the a cappella mix for the cassette.

What happened to the mulit-track -- what was added or deleted -- I do not know. I was not involved at that time or after late ’71.

As I said, when I heard SOS as released, I thought (and wrote about) how much Blondie's performance had nailed a copy of Carl’s lead. How it was in step with the lead it replaced. And that was it. I too enjoy listening to the song, who ever (whom ever?) is singing. I’m not rooting for one singer or the other.

So it was in all innocence that I thought my copy of Carl singing SOS would be appreciated. Rather it is questioned, along with my professional abilities. But that's OK because I know what I'm talking about because I was there, everyone else is an isolated visitor, removed from the issue by distance and time.

I can’t account for anything done to the multi-track during the post-Blondie releases (early ’72 and on) because I was not there.

I can enlighten you about the pre-Blondie times (up to late ’71). Those times had Carl singing the lead on the Multi-track with several tracks of vocals. Sail On, Sailor was one among other songs in various stages of production being worked on at the same time. It was on my list of vocals to mix a cappella. So I put all these songs mixed in a cappella on one side of a cassette tape, that is, multi-track to cassette. The cassette is the master. It’s a quality Type II High Bias Advanced Cobalt Ferric cassette. The list of songs was posted earlier. All the songs are a coppella. There are no instrumental tracks on the cassette.  BRI has reviewed the cassette in question and used some of the tracks on a Box Set. Evidently, other tracks have found their way into the bootleg market and are now out their as you cited.

Meanwhile after the summer of 1971 the SOS multi-track was stored because the House Studio was abandon. Evidently, the next time the multi-track comes off the shelf is years later. It’s revisited by, a then a changed Beach Boy group. Some things are added to the multi-track and some things are removed. But most tracks are used to make a mix for release or so I hear when I listen. That’s all I know.

---

I would ask fans to stop making up excuses for me. None of you is going to change my mind, I know what I’m doing, and what I’ve done. I know what is on the cassette and who is singing, from the time-line.

But what I’m hearing on the album release of SOS is now a mystery to me – an unsolved sonic situation. However, I did not release Part Two of my book to create a conspiracy theory.  That takes all the joy out of the entire project. And right now, I’m not happy.

Responding to all the controversy over this section of the book is taking up too much of my time. I do other things in my life and need a break from posting.

Thanks to all of you who enjoyed part two of my book.  ~swd    

Deleted

Hearing Carl sing SOS in 1996, you might think it’s Blondie. Definitely Carl.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jYZshgP99KI

And here, somebody isolated Blondie’s lead on SOS from Holland.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g2BG0cw3sVU

My conclusion is that it is Carl on Stephen’s tape.

Not again.... :'(

I hate myself for getting sucked into this again as I swore I was done but... argh, here I go again. Listen to what Mr. Desper posted and the isolated Blondie vocal from Holland back to back, or side by side. They're the same thing! You can't say one is Carl and one is Blondie, because they're identical. They aren't different versions, different takes, or anything. They're the exact same recording. I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone or Wonderland at this point that people are actually debating this.

Look, I synced up what Mr. Desper posted and the Holland Sail on Sailor - one is on the right, one is on the left. I did this quick and dirty, so some slight variations in speed and pitch are there (due to one source being from a cassette tape) but you can hear they're the same vocal - Blondie's. This is not debatable people, the evidence is right there.

https://instaud.io/2LPj

If you want to debate the recording history of Sail On Sailor, that's fine; it's murky, and muddled due to fading memories and lack of documentation. But you can't debate who is singing on the final recording - it's Blondie. There is no question about this. If you can't accept that fact, then you are not living in reality, I'm sorry. And listening to an isolated version of that same vocal and deciding it's someone different is farcical.

Deleted

Sigh... If someone is writing something to be a scholarly work, the facts need to be correct. The facts MATTER.

I don’t “think” it is Blondie singing on that recording, just like I don’t “think” the year is 2018. I don’t “think” the Earth revolves around the sun. These are all verifiable facts that I know to be true, not a matter of opinion. Getting facts like this wrong throws into question all the other information Mr. Desper provides, and that is an absolute shame. I wish I didn’t care at this point, but this is just driving me nuts and I’m fighting a losing battle to stay out of it! ;)

Well damn  it, we chased another one off. Stephen Gaines all over again. Let's hope that Mr. Desper hasn't left us for good. We love you and all you've done for us, the beach boys, and all the countless fans who love the songs you worked on. I'm at a loss to explain or understand all this. And I'm not denying my part in it. I debated and questioned it myself. May I politely and respectfully suggest that maybe you take a day(your schedule permitting, obviously) to go through your archive, just to double check everything, making sure that all of your tapes are in order and properly labelled? I don't doubt that you have a tape of Carl singing SOS. I just think that possibly the wrong one was used.

We should start a gofundme for Stephen to release hard copies of his book! :bw

I know it's upsetting anytime an argument happens with a respected figure close to a band we all love, but this was not a personal matter at all, it is one of indisputable fact. Kirk and I and others on this thread have all stated our immense appreciation for Stephen making these study videos, that is all genuine.

All I can say is that the past two pages of this thread have featured Stephen Desper referring to the "mystery" of who sang the finished studio version of "Sail On Sailor", NOT the cassette he posted, but rather the official version we all know so well. If anyone sees that as a point worth defending, a point that basically disrespects the legacy of Blondie singing his signature vocal, all in the name of obviously mislabeled evidence, then have at it.

And a final reminder that is a discussion of an academic piece of work, which is why fact checking obvious truths matter. If PetSoundsPete came along and posted his first thread where he claimed that it might be Dennis singing the studio release of "Help Me, Rhonda", I probably wouldn't care, it's just some guy. But someone like Stephen, who people would rightfully be more inclined to believe than any other random person on an internet forum, making an argument that the official studio credit for the lead vocal on "Sailor On Sailor" is now a complete mystery could lead many other fans to read that and think it's true. If that's the kind of world of half-baked conspiracies you want to live in, be my guests. Just don't be surprised when you are greeted with a completely logical factcheck.

But why did you have to repeat it over and over and over again. We (including Mr Desper) saw it the first time.
Now at least for a while we can’t access this. Maybe the SOS segment is being taken out and will be made available again.
But then there will probably be nitpicking in another segment.  >:(

Don’t understand Beach Boys fans.

Is this an academic piece- being peer reviewed or something?

This is another Smiley thread in which a group of posters can't seem to see the forest for the trees ... the fixation on this one particular detail derailed the entire topic. Many of the responses were fairly tactless. I'd hate to see what happened if Brian Wilson came to this message board and stated that he sang the lead vocal for "day in the life of a tree" on a warm sunny day in the summer of 1972.

I am an instructor in a university. There is a working premise in all of my classrooms that if any student disagrees with anything that I am saying that they should challenge what I am saying. If I have sufficient evidence to support my case, I will give it. If I don't, I will always say something along the lines of, "I could be very well be wrong. I will look into it and get back to you and I encourage you to look into it as well, and we'll discuss it next class."

If I said something along the lines of, "I am an instructor and you are a student. I have studied these things far longer than you have," I would entirely expect and hope that my students would push back against that, just as I hope they would do in any other classroom on campus as this is how knowledge is created and this is how it expands and moves forward.

I'm reminded of Mark Lewisohn's remarks when he uncovered the fact that The Beatles had already been signed before their June 6th 1962 appearance in the studio and that it was not, contrary to the historical record, an audition and that, in fact, George Martin was largely assigned to the Beatles as a punishment for having an affair with his secretary who became his wife, Judy, for nearly 60 years. When Lewisohn showed Martin information many years ago that Martin had signed contracts before June 6th, he was confounded. As far as he recalled, The Beatles were signed after passing the June 6th audition. Yet here was documentary evidence right there that went against received history. So Lewisohn pursued it even further and discovered the truth as I mentioned above. As he pointed out at a Q&A, "I may have surrendered a quality relationship that I always enjoyed with George and Judy. But again, I can put my hand on my heart that I told [the story] without any agenda."

Logged on this morning to listen to part two which I was saving for my birthday and lo, someone mucked it up for the rest of us.

 :-[ :-\ :-X

Deleted

This whole saga is a shame to BBs fandom :'(

Ughhhhhh..... I was waiting until today to listen to this!!!!! Fans are insanely lucky to have access to these videos. I'm extremely disappointed. 

My apologies for anything that I've done that has annoyed Stephen Desper. And my apologies for not catching the fact that the SOS isolated vocal was a cappella, thus rendering my suggestion moot.

Having listened carefully to the isolated version of Blondie's vocal on YouTube, I am certainly willing to beiieve Stephen. The similarities in the vocals are remarkable, however, and reactions to it have produced a most unfortunate outcome. I hope it will not result in Stephen permanently removing his study video, or altering it.

Thanks to SurfRiderHawaii for the YouTube links. They indicate, at the very least, a significant grey area in our ability to definitively identify BBs lead singers merely by listening. What I think we have with the SOS lead is Carl's initial 1971 vocal, singing in a style that is very uncharacteristic per the vocals for which he is famous; Blondie's late 1972 vocal where he copies Carl's approach; and a 1996 live vocal from Carl that returns the favor (though Carl's channeling of Blondie's vocal is more intermittent here, as there are places in the vocal that clearly connect to his more familiar/famous vocal timbre).

I hope that this incident will not produce a permanent parting of the ways with Stephen, and that he'll chalk it up to those of us who are in our various ways "over-invested" in the minutiae of a fascinating but often perplexing band, which itself has a tendency to create arguments and animosities analogous to what went on in the group itself.

And I second the motion that all of the intensely committed Beach Boys fans--located here and/or at Pet Sounds--band back together for the sole purpose of assisting Stephen to publish a hard-copy version of his new edition of RECORDING THE BEACH BOYS. I will state here and now that if such a GoFundMe or Kickstarter (or other reputable source for monetary contribution) is started, I'm in for $500 in a heartbeat.

Again, my apologies for careless reading and fruitless, overzealous efforts at "problem-solving."

I love Stephen Desper's videos, I love his anecdotes and recollections, I love the fact that he's willing to share all of this with us, but...

...That's clearly Blondie on that a capella version of SOS - to be precise, it's the exact same lead vocal as the one that can be heard on the final version of SOS. How it ended up on that cassette is the real mystery here.

At the risk of driving us all insane in an already confusing topic, I'd like to attempt to approach this from a different perspective. It certainly sounded like we were all pointing the finger at Mr. Desper and saying "WRONG!!!!!". Well, we pretty much were.  ;D But I think we all went about this in the wrong way. I think that what the vast majority of us were trying and failing to convey is that what appears to us to be an obvious inaccuracy that can be easily fixed can be hurtful to a person's reputation. This speaks to Mr. Desper's standing in the academic and music field. Mr. Desper, I believe that when we were all pointing out that it seemed quite obvious that you were mistaken, we were all trying to protect you. Admittedly, we all went way beyond what could be seen as the point of "overboard". Instead of being helpful and protective of your reputation, we hurt and most probably humiliated you. I for one am pretty embarrassed and ashamed right now. We obsessive fans are a fickle bunch at best, and a right pain in the ass at our worst.  Mr. Desper, I apologize to you for my part in this whole mess.

Extremely well said. I agree with every word, and the same goes for me. I absolutely apologize to Mr. Desper.

Well said Jay

what he said.

Deleted

I've been away for a few days so missed all of this including the upload, sadly. I'm sorry Stephen if you've become aggravated with any responses, just let it be known that the outstanding work you've been doing is very much loved and appreciated.

No one needs to be making excuses for anyone, you were there at that time and for a significant number of historic Beach Boys sessions, and the knowledge you have already imparted is more valuable than many of us could even imagine. I'm sorry if it feels like your hard work on these study videos has being nitpicked or that you've being patronized. Any die hard fan of The Beach Boys would absolutely love to get to view these and observe the new videos.

Thank you for putting all the work in for us fans, and I sincerely hope you'll give us another chance.

Some people like to offer a sincere and genuine apology if they have offended or hurt a person.

Deleted

There ... are ... four ... lights!

Hello Stephen.  I had the good fortune to meet and speak with you while you were engineering the sessions for "Keepin' The Summer Alive" at Daryl Dragon's studio.

I was so enjoying the "Recording the Beach Boys" chapters-- the only great new information I've read on the band in decades.  I'd just made it through Part One and its addendum and was about to dive in to Part Two only to find its access suspended.  I hope this is temporary or that you will make this available elsewhere; it is such a fascinating and valuable resource.  And the sonic revelations in so many of my favorite Beach Boys tracks are astounding, even on my laptop's little speakers.

I had thought of you on the sad occasion of the death of the Beatles' engineer, Geoff Emerick, last week.  You were kindred talents in your respective groundbreaking work in that you didn't just break the conventional rules of audio recording, you re-wrote them.


Nearly 50 years later, "Sunflower" remains one of the best-sounding albums ever recorded, despite any of the inherent limitations you enumerated in your study.  I hope that one day a format will allow its full sonic dimensions to be revealed.


Thanks, Stephen.


Regards,


Scott Paton


sep1958@hotmail.com

I missed it! Oh man....I saw last week that part 2 was now available & assumed I'd have time to come back and check it out when I had more time to do so. I hope this is a temporary situation.



 

Deleted

Oh sh*t, look what I started.

ooh boy looks like i am going to have to deal with this the same method I brought on the other place. You know what is wrong with these boards? Everybody is trying to be the board police, everyone wants to be a moderator. Guess what?  It does not work like that.  So it appears that a well regarded historian may have been mistaken in regards to a historical recording, and responded negatively and left. We have people apologizing for their part in it because they feel bad. That should not invalidate the truth of whomever is or is not singing on the track, right? So be it whatever. BUt what does become an issue is when we have others then saying "ooh you should not have said that you are bad" or like the post I quoted. That is why there are problems on this board and especially the other one right now. I rarely post in either place because I amo so fed up with people's attitudes and thinking they are the internet police.  It seems like nobody can look in the mirror and say "ooh maybe I should not talk to people like a complete piece of excrement, maybe I am the one who is wrong". There is the problem. Not moderation, not whose message board is better, nothing else.

WOW!...What did I wander into?

I saw Part Two uploaded a few days ago, and thought I would come back and listen on a better sound system when I returned home, but it's gone!

I sure hope this all gets worked out somehow as I would really love to hear it. I've enjoyed the other Study Videos immensely. Thank You Stephen.

Deleted

Forgive me if I get any of this wrong because I actually don't have access to this exchange at the moment.

But I have been chatting with Mr. Desper and he makes the very good point that because of the nature of his project (namely, using Beach Boys tracks as courtesy of BRI and Capitol) that he worries that any controversy about it could have it shut down. I think that's the main reason why he has taken the videos down. In that respect, no matter where any of us stand on the topic, I believe that it be best for all of us if we just put this particular controversy and this element of the conversation to rest and - this is definitely my own point - that includes the pointing of fingers about who was right and who was wrong in this discussion. Again, I think that the best thing for all parties is to let it go. Please forgive the Disney reference as I have young daughter.  :)

Disregard this

"Barker" deletes post

Go Broncos

Please check your PMs

Stephen, thank you for posting your comments and for taking the time to explain the situation at hand. Speaking for myself, but certainly many of not all fans reading this feel the same way, we are all extremely grateful that you shared your time and your many fascinating details and audio with us. We appreciate all of this very much and look forward to whatever you have to share and present in the future. Thank you. Everything is as usual both enjoyable and educational.

That said, would you consider perhaps reposting your latest "part 2" with the bonus track in question at the end edited out? I was fortunate enough to see it, but for those fans who did not, perhaps an edited version would be made available in the meantime?

And this is where we find ourselves after an ass or two presume to look a gift horse in the mouth? ???  Thanks for weighing back in Stephen.  And, as always, thanks for adding some music to our day{s}. :hat

MOST of us sincerely appreciate it.  ALL of it.

Stephen, thanks so much!  Besides the eventual return of Part Two, I'll be most interested to learn of this unique new studio gear you're working on - best of luck in that endeavor!

There is a very obvious and glaring response to this, I have pm'd it to a person I have utmost respect for.
Thanks again for all the great work you have done and continue to do Stephen, I regret making my initial observation and the subsequent sh*t storm that followed.

You are a treasure, Mr. Desper.  I'm glad to know you.

Yes, exactly, you are a treasure Steve. You posses fantastic recall and attention to detail, much better than mine and I'm 5 years younger than you. Keep on keeping on and glad to hear that you're keeping yourself it good shape. Not only are you incredibly talented in what you do , but the fact that YOU WERE THERE is something I, and I hope others will keenly respect forever. DLTBGYD!

The truth is, if there were fairness in this world, Mr. Desper would be as well-known and universally respected as Geoff Emerick. Truth.

I cannot wait to see the latest Study Video when it is re-uploaded (crossing fingers!)

Tue story: Prior to it being taken down, I had already made plans to watch the video with a dear out-of-town friend (who is a fellow BBs fanatic of the '67-'73 era) who's coming into town to visit (we had planned to watch the latest study video this coming weekend together).  

I'm sure I speak for many, many others when I say how grateful I am for Stephen contributing his time and efforts to make them.
It's literally the best stuff on Earth. 

I have a question for Mr. Desper, if I may. On the Carl Wilson version of SOS, does anything other than his vocal track exist? Any dialogue in between, etc

On a different subject, your version of A Day In The Life of A Tree as heard in your study video is incredible. Starting from the "Oh lord, I lay me down" lyric until the fade out is one of the most heavenly things I've ever heard in my life.

Ooh that brings me to quite a question: the version that Carl sang, how different did the backing track sound? The tempo sounded the same like instrumental track released on Hawthorne CA set so I imagine it sounded somewhat similar, but I am oh so curious. And apologies if you have answered this in the past but did you ever hear the cassette tape demo with Van Dyke Parks with Brian singing? That is one think I would have loved to have heard!

This. Most decidedly and emphatically, this.  :-D

Thank you, Mr. Desper. As someone late to this party (if that is what to call it), where can I find the SOS track in question? I’m a fan of the band and would be curious to hear it. I am NOT curious in debating who is singing lead!

Thank you for taking the time Mr Desper. That was a very eloquent rebuttal ...

COMMENT:

Thanks to all.   I found these three articles on the Internet. Not much there, but at least someone has heard Carl sing SOS and thought it good.

For what it's worth . . .

Steel Guitar Magazine   
   next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author   Topic:   Carl Wilson of the Beach Boys
Chuck S. LettesMemberFrom: Denver, Colorado     posted 08 October 2001 09:25 AM     profile      I've read some posts by Steel Guitar Forum members about the Beach Boys, so here's my own two cents. Carl Wilson, the "heart" of the group, was a featured singer (God Only Knows, This Whole World) who loved performing and creating that tight Beach Boy sound. He was the quiet, dedicated one who always made the shows happen. There's a nice "never published" interview with Carl in this month's Guitar One Magazine. Also listed in the article is a website: www.carlwilsonfoundation.org Carl was one of my favorites, and I miss him. Any other people out there with some thoughts about Carl?Chuck
Rich WeissMemberFrom: Woodland Hills, CA, USA     posted 08 October 2001 03:20 PM     profile      Carl was a true gentleman. The first session I ever did on steel was for Carl. He was producing a friend of mine, back in 1973. I remember that he let me sit in his seat to listen to the playback. I'm sure I was way out of tune, I'd only been playing a couple of years, but he was kind and encouraging and never told me if I was. A great guy.
Jason StillwellMemberFrom: Soper, OK, USA     posted 08 October 2001 07:25 PM     profile      I just bought that Guitar One magazine last week. Of all the Beach Boys literature I've read over the past 14 years, it was the first info I've ever been able to find concerning Carl's guitar work. Did any of you ever get the chance to hear him sing "Sail On, Sailor"? Exquisite! When I saw the guys in Tulsa, 1996, I was about 6 rows back on Carl's side of the stage. When they broke into Sailor, I didn't know who would sing. I'd never heard the Boys perform this in concert, though Billy Hinsche had been known to sing the song now and then. Carl Dean broke into the lead vocal, and I don't think the Beach Boys and/or Carl have ever recorded anything comparable to what I heard that October night at the State Fair. One of the saddest days of my life was when I heard of Carl's passing. I never got to meet him, and it will go down in my life's history as one of those "what-if's" that never happened.--js

---

Discover ideas about Carl Wilson
The Beach Boys - Sail on Sailor live 1995 Yay-Carl sings it this time!
Carl WilsonThe Beach BoysSailorBbSinging
More information

Saved by
Sharon Beach Garrison

---

·   Home
·   News
·   Mini-Reviews
·   Artists
·   Grammys
·   Reviews
·   Pop Rock Nation Team
·   Contact Us!
Beach Boys’ Made in California Drops Tomorrow
Previous Next
Beach Boys’ Made in California Drops Tomorrow
A long overdue boxset hits shelves and digital download spots tomorrow when The Beach Boys’ Made in California drops.
And about that essay, which is in The Grammy museum exhibit about The Beach Boys.  Young Brian wrote “My Philosophy”, which included this classic line, “I don’t want to settle for a mediocre life, but make a name for myself in my life’s work, which I hope will be music.”
Beach Boys fans will want to hear these tracks first:
·   17 unreleased live tracks, including songs from the 1993 acoustic tour
·   BBC live cuts from 1964 of Wendy and When I Grow Up to be a Man
·   A remixed Rock and Roll Music with new lyrics
·   Covers of Da Doo Ron Ron and You’ve Lost That Loving Feeling
·   Outtakes from Don’t Worry Baby
·   The “lei’d in Hawaii” version of California Girls
Made in California includes several cuts featuring deceased brothers Dennis and Carl Wilson, including a haunting version of Carl singing Sail On, Sailor in 1995.

Carl singing the lead from that 96 tour your post referred to Stephen. Privileged to say I heard him sing it live several times. Along with GOKs, a highlight of any Beach Boys concert.

https://youtu.be/dZIqi9UnQH0

Man alive. Carl sounds great there!

Highly disenchanted dissing of Steve at the Hoffman board this afternoon by "Researcher Man" Doe.  ::)

Slower to apologize than pancake batter.
More girth than a locomotive,
Able to leap rat feces in a single bound!

Look! Down in the dumpster! It's a raccoon, it's a snake, it's Super Researcher!!
Yes, it's Super Researcher, strange being from somewhere around Mars who sadly plumetted to Earth with a solar system sized ego
and self acclaimed powers beyond those of mortal Beach Boys fans.
Super researcher, who can change the course of honest reporting, and bend the truth to his liking.
And who, disguised as someone who was there at every Beach Boy discussion and recording session,
fights a neverending battle for himself, Mike Love and Bruce Johnston and the fake Beach Boys Touring Group.  >:D

Now you could understand Carl sounding like Blondie in this clip from 96, but he doesn't...........

Sigh what did he say this time?

What a sad state of affairs!

Stephen Desper has my utmost respect. I unfortunately did not have the chance to listen to any of Part 2 before everything went down this week.

Maybe it was just me but seemed that him(Bellagio) and his buddy Manning were raking Steve over the coals.

Good grief

I saw Mr. Doe interrogating Stephen over the articles concerning the cassettes. No sense of decorum on the matter, just trying to act the big guy by trying to show how much of a 'researcher' he is.  In fact a few of them come off in that thread as pretty entitled, most of whom won't even know the story. Some fans, no matter how knowledgeable they they believe themselves to be are not always 'owed' the explanation that they demand, especially when said person has already replied to the topic at hand. Not letting things go without serious interrogation can become pretty arrogant quickly, and it happens on the internet far too often. It's fine to want to know what the truth is but at some point when an opinion has been hammered enough time's you have to let it go, honestly. It's certainly disrespectful to act so entitled to a guy that's a key figurehead in The Beach Boys story, could you imagine someone talking that arrogantly to Al or Blondie on a music forum?

Someone who regards themselves as such a huge fan should show more respect. (But then again, AGD's got history of talking rather poorly regarding friends/family of the BB's, hasn't he?)

 ::)

AGD has gone after me (Melinda Wilson rumors) in the past. Guy is a relentless POS and I support Mr. Desper 100 percent in his work of a FREE online book!

Future "Fear to Stop" hidden track? >:D

I should pull a Henry Rollins and do a spoken word track lol

Album cover will be your picture of Doe’s book in the trash! ;)

What is this thread about?

 :o

:lol

Let's please not go that direction of ongoing other-board or ex-member bashing. Please?

Sorry Cap... :-\

Oh, I don't think there's any real problem with that Cap. They do it to this board every once in awhile and really, who cares? As long as there are no death threats, stabbings, or shootings, I think it's all very silly, but fun in a kind of competitive way.  :smokin

You’re right. Doe for me is different because it has nothing to do with anything to do with the board but as far as other members, I agree. I’ll drop it publicly.

I mean you go from having this amazing video put up, to arguing about it, to sadness about it leaving, to people just being angry at each other. Beach boys history is an ever ongoing cycle  :lol

I haven't seen the messages, so I can't speak to how he handled it, but what Doe says is fact and can be backed up as such.

I think we can all agree that we'd be thrilled to get a clearer sense of the genesis of SOS based on Stephen's testimony and Craig's descriptions from the other thread that I reprinted here. I don't know if that's possible, but perhaps some additional tapes will eventually surface to clarify at least part of the story.

As for my comment about grey areas of listening, I was referring to laymen, not to professional engineers with virtually daily access to and intimate knowledge of the band members, their creative efforts, and their vocals.

Another unfortunate aspect of Andrew's approach to things is that he might well have be able to coax additional home studio information from Stephen with less "confrontational energy." Regardless of our (apparently collective) opinion of his personality and other related "antics," the Bellagio site is still a valuable resource and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

I'm sure I'm part of a universal contingent that includes everyone who participated in this thread that hopes Stephen will finish his book and that he'll either obtain a publisher or, absent that, be open to receiving funding from those who revere his work and are fascinated by his recollections of what is arguably the band's (as opposed to Brian's) most creative efforts.

 :-[

I'm very sorry to read this, Stephen. Thanks for all your work and information you shared with those great study videos. As I've mentioned before, to watch your videos and read your comments made me feel like being part of the actual recording process, even though I wasn't even born when the sessions happened. It was a lot of fun!

Vielen herzlichen Dank!

I posted this on the Desper Thread in Honoured Guests, but I'll post it here too:

Mr Desper,

I'm very sorry to hear that you've had to close down your study video pages, what a shame. Sadly, the world is full of idiots, and one just has to accept that it always will be. I hope you won't take to heart the stupid comments, and rest assured that the vast majority of us here do read your comments thoroughly, don't make stupid interpretations, and do really value your wisdom and the efforts you've put in to share the music of the Beach Boys.

I hope one day the time will again be right for you to put your excellent site back online so together we can continue the wonderful musical odyssey that is appreciation of the Beach Boys.

Best wishes,

Brother John

Sorry to see this new turn of events. I was absent from the bickering. Steve, you are one of the few people on the planet with great insight into my favorite topic. I do hope the book gets finished and at some point the study videos can be available to view. Why any true fan would jeopardize our access to this by bickering is beyond me. I’m greatful to have had one full listen before this happened. Desper is a treasure and the rules he asks us to follow are minimal and necessary.

I felt the need to post to show that there are many here who may seldom post, but still read the content and appreciate the contributions, particularly from those who where close to the band at some point. Thanks for every word, Steve.

I'm generally pretty shocked and offended by the celebrity-worshipping, anti-facts tone of much of this thread. When the claims of a participant contradict things that are established, proven, on the record, it is our responsibility as music historians to ask why. That is all.

So how is the museum doing,  Historian Linusoli?   :lol



 

"When the claims of a participant contradict things that are established, proven, on the record, it is our responsibility as music historians to ask why. That is all."

I've never heard a phrase of such pompous, self righteous wind-bag blather like that ever before.  That is all?  That is enough!

This thread is exhausting to read and the facts couldn't be more difficult to reach thanks to various distortions of what Desper and others actually wrote. The facts are quite simple. First, a link to the Hoffman thread (http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/beach-boys-sail-on-sailor-with-carl-wilson-lead.779568/page-3#post-19712527) (since everybody's referenced without linking it). Now, a basic summary:

 - Yes, disputing whether Desper's cassette contains a performance of Carl Wilson singing is beating a dead horse. But in one of his last posts, Desper acknowledged that the vocal tracks of his cassette and the single were identical. This was proven by synchronizing the tracks together. He knows they're the same performance.


 - In spite of this, only a couple sentences later, he wrote that he has "no doubt" that Blondie (1973) sings on the final mix and that Carl (1971) sings on the cassette he digitized. No further scrutinization is necessary. Whether you consider Desper a reliable source rests on your belief of the supernatural. As he concluded:


 - On the Hoffman thread, it was suggested that Desper provide a photograph of his cassette to prove its date of manufacturing. Instead, he gave more anecdotal evidence (since it'd been serving him so well thus far):


   Confirmed for him.

Personally, I had a question that he promised to address in the study video. It wasn't. And I think that video ran for over 2 hours. It could have easily been presented on his website via text with links to the separate audio portions. The fans would also (presumably) still have access to the information since the written text itself is not bound by copyright. Why a more accessible option wasn't taken, I guess, is yet another "rock and roll mystery".

That wasn’t necessary

Where, "on the record" of Brother Records, Warner Records, or Epic Records releases does it say who is singing lead on "Sail On Sailor"? The LP of 1993 and the CD of 1985, plus the single 45 and demo promos on 45's only says it's the Beach Boys singing.

On the "Holland" LP jacket and the CD booklet and all insert notes only say that Blondie is the author and co-writer of "Leaving This Town." Nowhere can I find Blondie connected with SOS. You would think that if someone other than an established Beach boy is singing on a new song, the record company would tell you on the jacket or years later on the CD booklet.

Many years ago I bought the "Holland" LP. Since no credits are given, I always thought Carl sang the SOS lead. It sounds like him and not Michael, Al, Bruce Dennis or Brian. Up until these posts started I never considered Blondie could be the singer. But where is the proof? the "established, proven, on the record" proof? All I can find out about Blondie is on the internet -- that's not proof.

So will you or someone tell me where the record company says, on any official release of SOS, that Blondie is the singer of that song?  or Carl.

I didn't wade into this issue previously, but let's be clear: It's Blondie Chaplin singing "Sail on Sailor" on every commercially released copy of the "Holland" album, and any other commercially released album/compilation that includes the Beach Boys' recording.

I'd have to pore through every BB album release, but I don't think every single album has a lead vocal credit for every song.

That being said, I think there are liner notes accompanying BB releases that mention that Blondie sings SOS. For instance, the '93 Good Vibrations Boxed Set:

CD #4 opens with one of the best Beach Boys songs of the last twenty years, Brian’s comforting “Sail On Sailor.” It wasn’t a big hit, although it charted twice, once in 1973 and once in 1975, it never got any higher that #49 in Billboard.

The lead singer on “Sail On Sailor” is guitar player Blondie Chaplin, one of two black South Africans (drummer Ricky Fataar was the other) who were with the Beach Boys during much of the first half of the decade. They had been introduced to the Beach Boys world when Carl Wilson produced an album by their family group, Flame. In early 1972, when Bruce Johnston left the band, Blondie and Ricky became official Beach Boys. (It’s interesting to note that the Beach Boys, with little fanfare, integrated what many consider to be the quintessential white pop group.)

I'm all for new insights into seemingly iron clad facts. Some folks didn't know for years that certain Beatles were missing from certain Beatles songs. BB fans are still debating "Be Here in the Morning." Dennis singing part of a line on IJWMFTT was staring us right in the face for decades and few noticed it for years and years.

But there is zero evidence that anybody but Blondie Chaplin is singing the lead on the released version of SOS. Every BB has said so. Every time he was on stage with the BBs, Blondie sang the song. And, if you *know* Blondie Chaplin's voice (and the other BBs for that matter), it's patently obvious that Blondie Chaplin is singing the song.

I absolutely understand this whole thing has been a delicate situation and that it hasn't been easy to just be unequivocal about everything. But it's 100% ridiculous and embarrassing to try to finagle some scenario where, contrary to every piece of evidence, the lack of a specific lead vocal credit on 1973 pressings of "Holland" means that it's actually plausible that it's not Blondie singing the song.

The official Warner Bros. promo booklet issued at the time of Holland's release in January 1973, and available for free at places like Tower Records, says this about SOS:

"Sail On, Sailor" is a Brian Wilson-Jack Rieley song with writer credits suggesting informal assistance from a wide range of characters, among them Van Dyke Parks. It takes the composers sense of rueful sorcery to a politically radical plateau, accompanied lyrically by one of the more blunt statements of the quality of being ever uttered by the Beach Boys. Blondie Chaplin sings lead, and Carl Wilson produced.

So, there IS an official record company credit for Blondie's lead, and a contemporaneous one, no less. Plus, Blondie has talked about the recording session in many interviews since then, including how he sang the lead in two takes after both Dennis and Carl tried and gave up.

There are a lot of lead vocals that get debated around here. Some of these are hard to tell, and what was initially thought has changed as different evidence has been presented. For example, a lot of people who initially thought Brian sang the verses on BHITM have come around, and now the majority belief is that it's Al Jardine. However, Sail On Sailor is not one of these songs. The boys can all sound pretty similar, but not a single person has doubted the lead singer of this song until this whole issue. I think we can all agree it's Blondie.

The liner notes of 2000 two-fer reissue of CATP/Holland also says as follows:


Also, in the same liner notes, Tom Petty says:

SWD doesn't claim to be a historian. He is not interested in conveying that aspect of his work with the Beach Boys. He can only recall events as he remembers them. If you disagree with a point of his, I doubt he cares that much. But it is those among us who want to browbeat him with their point and want him to acknowledge their absolute correctness that has put this thread and his website in it's current condition.

I have my opinion about SOS. But in the light of everything that SWD has brought to this forum, I could not careless if he said Dolly Parton sang it.

Just move on and let the man do his thang.  8)

I have mentioned this elsewhere but it bears repeating that this is not why his website is in its current condition.

Its in its current condition because Mr. Desper is concerned that a potential controversy over a long-held belief about who sang the song could lead to him no longer having the permission to use the music at all. If we dropped this whole conversation entirely, the music would go back up eventually.

Judging by recent conversations here I'd say not that well

thank you

Have you considered that maybe Mr Desper was told to take it down by BRI?  Stephen himself cast aspersions on who was singing the lead on the released SOS (he has deleted those posts on here).  Maybe the powers that be didn't take to kindly to that, or unreleased material being on there, such as the Fourth of July demo.

In all honesty I am just sad that I didn't get a chance to see it.

No I haven't nor do I have any reason to believe that's the case.