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Author Topic: Brian Wilson - 2019 Tour Thread  (Read 93595 times)
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #300 on: August 09, 2019, 07:03:47 AM »

I don't consider Brian to be controlled and I believe that this is something that he wants to do. What I don't know is what it is about this that he wants to do and if there are perhaps more beneficial outlets for him to achieve what it is he's trying to get out of these experiences.
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« Reply #301 on: August 09, 2019, 07:33:10 AM »

I don't consider Brian to be controlled and I believe that this is something that he wants to do. What I don't know is what it is about this that he wants to do and if there are perhaps more beneficial outlets for him to achieve what it is he's trying to get out of these experiences.

The way I see it: If people aren't satisfied with his shows they will stop buying tickets. Any consumer wanting to buy tickets can easily search youtube for recent shows and see if it's something worth going to. As has been mentioned in this thread, some of us go to these shows not to hear Brian sing a pitch-perfect show, but to see the man in real life and be apart of the magic. I think most of us have felt that at his shows regardless of how well Brian is singing. And thus people continue to go to his shows.

We can sit here and complain about shows or speculate about whether Brian should still be doing this stuff, but until ticket sales plunge I don't think it really matters what we think.
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« Reply #302 on: August 09, 2019, 07:45:07 AM »

As long as Brian is going to do a show that I can get to, I will go. For a long time I just accepted it as fact that I would never get to see Brian, but then that bombshell announcement about the 1999 tour...wow. Having said that, I can honestly say there has never been a Brian show I've been to (and I think I've been to 30, the latest being November 30, 2018) in which I wish I wasn't there; can't say the same for The Beach Boys (or "Beach Boys," as it were).

The thing is...they have, once and for all, GOT to stop doing the Pet Sounds album. I love Pet Sounds as much as the next guy (it's literally the reason my life is the way it is -- and I mean that in the absolute best way imaginable), but....Brian did a Pet Sounds tour in 2000. And his band did the entire album at the TNT Tribute in 2001. And they did Pet Sounds dates here in the States in 2002 again. They did a couple of European Pet Sounds tours in the early 2000s. And there was the 40th anniversary mini-tour in 2006. And then the 50th anniversary tour in 2016. And 2017. And didn't he do some PS shows last year? And then now AGAIN. Brian is CLEARLY bored doing that material. And he's not the only one: even AL is starting to do the bored speak-singing too.

While I'm not looking forward to a Nick-less show (nothing I haven't been to before - I've been to at least one or two Brian concerts in which there wasn't a single Wondermint present -- but at least I knew he'd be back), I'm pretty excited about the Surf's Up / Friends-themed concert.
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« Reply #303 on: August 09, 2019, 07:46:36 AM »

I don't consider Brian to be controlled and I believe that this is something that he wants to do. What I don't know is what it is about this that he wants to do and if there are perhaps more beneficial outlets for him to achieve what it is he's trying to get out of these experiences.

The way I see it: If people aren't satisfied with his shows they will stop buying tickets. Any consumer wanting to buy tickets can easily search youtube for recent shows and see if it's something worth going to. As has been mentioned in this thread, some of us go to these shows not to hear Brian sing a pitch-perfect show, but to see the man in real life and be apart of the magic. I think most of us have felt that at his shows regardless of how well Brian is singing. And thus people continue to go to his shows.

We can sit here and complain about shows or speculate about whether Brian should still be doing this stuff, but until ticket sales plunge I don't think it really matters what we think.

Okay, but that doesn't address my point, which is not about whether the audience enjoys it. That's a matter of opinion - some feel the magic while my partner refuses to go to anymore shows because the entire experiences makes her feel sad. My point is, if he enjoys the experience, what does he enjoy about it?
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« Reply #304 on: August 09, 2019, 07:47:05 AM »

I don't consider Brian to be controlled and I believe that this is something that he wants to do. What I don't know is what it is about this that he wants to do and if there are perhaps more beneficial outlets for him to achieve what it is he's trying to get out of these experiences.

The way I see it: If people aren't satisfied with his shows they will stop buying tickets. Any consumer wanting to buy tickets can easily search youtube for recent shows and see if it's something worth going to. As has been mentioned in this thread, some of us go to these shows not to hear Brian sing a pitch-perfect show, but to see the man in real life and be apart of the magic. I think most of us have felt that at his shows regardless of how well Brian is singing. And thus people continue to go to his shows.

We can sit here and complain about shows or speculate about whether Brian should still be doing this stuff, but until ticket sales plunge I don't think it really matters what we think.

Exactly! The sad or even bizarre thing is that some of us have been seeing similar commentary for the 20 years that Brian has been doing shows under his own name. I still have not gotten over seeing him that first time back in 1999 on the first tour, because it was something no one thought would happen, and above that it was actually a terrific show and presentation. Much better than what other official "Beach Boys" shows were at that time. And it kept rolling along.

The most obvious takeaway from this is the obvious fact stated above: If people are not happy with the shows, they will not go to the shows. All this talk about being "forced to tour" or "controlled" into touring is complete bullshit. There is no other word to describe it.
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« Reply #305 on: August 09, 2019, 07:58:03 AM »

I don't consider Brian to be controlled and I believe that this is something that he wants to do. What I don't know is what it is about this that he wants to do and if there are perhaps more beneficial outlets for him to achieve what it is he's trying to get out of these experiences.

The way I see it: If people aren't satisfied with his shows they will stop buying tickets. Any consumer wanting to buy tickets can easily search youtube for recent shows and see if it's something worth going to. As has been mentioned in this thread, some of us go to these shows not to hear Brian sing a pitch-perfect show, but to see the man in real life and be apart of the magic. I think most of us have felt that at his shows regardless of how well Brian is singing. And thus people continue to go to his shows.

We can sit here and complain about shows or speculate about whether Brian should still be doing this stuff, but until ticket sales plunge I don't think it really matters what we think.

Okay, but that doesn't address my point, which is not about whether the audience enjoys it. That's a matter of opinion - some feel the magic while my partner refuses to go to anymore shows because the entire experiences makes her feel sad. My point is, if he enjoys the experience, what does he enjoy about it?

I think of all the difficult questions that may arise about touring, this one might be the easiest to answer. I think BW enjoys that people want to see him and hear the music. The adoration and affirmation that comes from a crowd is magical.

You look at Little Richard, or Chuck Berry, or Jerry Lee Lewis, or BB King -- all of whom toured well into their senior years, and sometimes to less-than-stunning effect -- it's the same thing. At the heart of it, they needed to hear that roar from the audience, that feeling of love from other people. And if you're a neglected or abused child, as most folks in show business are, that unconditional love matters.

In terms of Brian's shows from the last couple of years, I think the quality of performances is inextricably linked to his physical challenges. And I don't know the answer. It seems everyone is trying to do the best they can.
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« Reply #306 on: August 09, 2019, 08:01:21 AM »

This is probably a piece of speculation that is going a bit too far, I understand if I'm called out for it. I do not believe anyone is making tour but Brian Wilson himself. Is it possible that Brian is forcing himself to do this? Is he actually causing himself physical pain and making himself get out on the road and on stage even when he isn't physically or mentally for it? Pressure to do this could come from a past of NOT doing it that much, the success of recent years, a desire to keep the music alive on stage etc. Maybe those around him should try and convince him of a different performance arrangement. Maybe he could work out a residency arrangement close to home at a theatre somewhere, like Billy Joel has done at MSG and do one or two appearances in big cities elsewhere in the country at his leisure.
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« Reply #307 on: August 09, 2019, 08:06:16 AM »

I completely agree with the idea that as long as people pay to see Brian perform, then ultimately that is the marker.

I saw him in '99 and it was amazing, even though not perfect...just never thought I'd see him live
Seen him maybe 4 or 5 times since. For me, in recent years, it just got uncomfortable watching him live so I don't go to see him anymore.

I always find the 'control' theories interesting. Since he is a grown ass man, even if he was being controlled, then that would kinda be his choice....

I must say though, it would have been interesting if there was one time in Brian's life when he was completely unattached. No Murry, no Marilyn, no Landy, no Melinda...just to see what choices he would have made, professionally and personally.

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« Reply #308 on: August 09, 2019, 08:21:00 AM »


I must say though, it would have been interesting if there was one time in Brian's life when he was completely unattached. No Murry, no Marilyn, no Landy, no Melinda...just to see what choices he would have made, professionally and personally.


While never literally "completely unattached" as in not associating or seeing anyone, I'd say 1980/1981/1982 was pretty close to what you're describing (not passing judgment on Carolyn Williams; I don't think her story has been fully told yet and it's probably a complicated one), and that obviously didn't go too well.
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« Reply #309 on: August 09, 2019, 08:24:23 AM »

I think of all the difficult questions that may arise about touring, this one might be the easiest to answer. I think BW enjoys that people want to see him and hear the music. The adoration and affirmation that comes from a crowd is magical.

Okay - but that brings me back to my other question which is, are there other ways for him to be fulfilled like that because there are certainly elements about performing that he doesn't like.
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« Reply #310 on: August 09, 2019, 08:24:54 AM »

This is probably a piece of speculation that is going a bit too far, I understand if I'm called out for it. I do not believe anyone is making tour but Brian Wilson himself. Is it possible that Brian is forcing himself to do this? Is he actually causing himself physical pain and making himself get out on the road and on stage even when he isn't physically or mentally for it? Pressure to do this could come from a past of NOT doing it that much, the success of recent years, a desire to keep the music alive on stage etc. Maybe those around him should try and convince him of a different performance arrangement. Maybe he could work out a residency arrangement close to home at a theatre somewhere, like Billy Joel has done at MSG and do one or two appearances in big cities elsewhere in the country at his leisure.

Yes, I bought up the residency approach after seeing him last year. Surely some LA-area theater or club would love to have him and the band play every month or two. It would be easier for everyone and be along the lines of what Chuck Berry did for the last decade or so with Blueberry Hill in St. Louis.
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« Reply #311 on: August 09, 2019, 08:27:48 AM »

I completely agree with the idea that as long as people pay to see Brian perform, then ultimately that is the marker.


Personally speaking, I disagree and I think most people would disagree with that as a principle. For example, if I produced heroin, there would probably be a huge and endless market for it. That being said, I wouldn't personally feel good about continuing to supply people with heroin, even if they wanted it and kept coming back for it.

Now, surely, someone will miss my point here and interpret this as me comparing going to a Brian Wilson concert to taking heroin, which I'm not doing. What I am doing is saying that we don't really accept as a principle that we should keep supplying a product as long as there is a market for it.
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« Reply #312 on: August 09, 2019, 08:31:18 AM »

I always find the 'control' theories interesting. Since he is a grown ass man, even if he was being controlled, then that would kinda be his choice....

We’ve discussed this on and off here over the years, and I’ve always said it’s not out of line to say that there are folks around Brian including Melinda who do assert some level of input/control in the business (and other) sides of things.

Most anyone of Brian’s stature/wealth/fame has people around them doing all sorts of things. Legal and business counsel. Career advice. People pitching ideas. And yes, most “famous” people have people around them *insulating* them from the outside world to varying degrees.

Melinda over the years has been very involved. But guess what? Most of the band members’ partners are involved. Trust me, when there are things pitched out there at BRI, *all* the wives are involved and looped in. Jackie Love is listed as on officer at Mike’s company(ies). Al’s clearly has his wife close to him as well. I dunno about Bruce, but he’s not a corporate member anyway.

Remember that it was many insiders, not just random uninformed fans, pointing out that a big part of C50 back in 2012 was about the Melinda/Jackie relationship. I say this only to highlight that many if not most people in the general type of position that the BB members are in, have a bunch of people around them contributing to making calls and decisions.

I mean, I guess in a perfect world all of the famous music people we are into would also have a business degree, and accounting degree, and be a professional PR person, tour manager, promoter, booker, and so on, and then they could literally control everything themselves. But nobody at the level of these guys actually does that. If they’re actually banking their money and their manager isn’t pilfering it all behind the scenes, I think they probably consider that a huge win in this industry.
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« Reply #313 on: August 09, 2019, 08:36:01 AM »

And if you're a neglected or abused child, as most folks in show business are, that unconditional love matters.

I do want to float something here but I'm not talking about Brian Wilson but rather the phenomenon that you have discussed. From a psychological point of view, do you think that these people who need that sort of unconditional love from an audience have properly dealt with the traumatic experiences that they had or are they in some ways deferring properly dealing with it? Obviously someone who drinks or takes drugs or something like that is trying to fill a sort of void that can never be filled in a way that is harmful both to themselves and to the people around them. Consistently doing concerts for thousands of cheering fans is not harmful, of course. But is it perpetuating the same sort of ways of dealing with trauma that allow for the more harmful patterns to come about? I'm sorry if this isn't making sense but I'm just trying to work through this.

EDIT: Like, for example, I think about the Endless Harmony doc where they are talking about Dennis and how much he loved adulation. And it seems to me that this was all wrapped up in a personality that also needed to drugs, alcohol, and sex to fill a kind of void. And psychologists tend to say that you can never quit just one addictive behaviour - like you can't expect to fully drop a drug addiction if you are still gambling all the time. So in order to properly deal with your issues, you have to give up all of it.
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« Reply #314 on: August 09, 2019, 08:38:55 AM »

This is probably a piece of speculation that is going a bit too far, I understand if I'm called out for it. I do not believe anyone is making tour but Brian Wilson himself. Is it possible that Brian is forcing himself to do this? Is he actually causing himself physical pain and making himself get out on the road and on stage even when he isn't physically or mentally for it? Pressure to do this could come from a past of NOT doing it that much, the success of recent years, a desire to keep the music alive on stage etc. Maybe those around him should try and convince him of a different performance arrangement. Maybe he could work out a residency arrangement close to home at a theatre somewhere, like Billy Joel has done at MSG and do one or two appearances in big cities elsewhere in the country at his leisure.

Yes, I bought up the residency approach after seeing him last year. Surely some LA-area theater or club would love to have him and the band play every month or two. It would be easier for everyone and be along the lines of what Chuck Berry did for the last decade or so with Blueberry Hill in St. Louis.

A residency is something that should have been explored years ago. As Howie Edelson pointed out, that would have been the best way to continue with the full band past 2012 - a lucrative Las Vegas residency.

While I'm sure Brian could do a once or several times per month residence in the SoCal area, I do think that scenario doesn't address one of the reasons Brian does his tours. Among the many reasons, one reason surely *is* to make money. Doing a gig every month or two in LA won't make them any money. It would be good to stay active. But it wouldn't make money; they'd probably be lucky to break even, especially playing a club type venue. They'd probably also have some band retention issues and more subbing going on, and also any time a band only convenes once every month or two, it doesn't *typically* allow for a particularly adventurous setlist. I know Brian's band can whip something up *very fast*, so anything would be possible.

That type of sporadic touring is what Al did for many years in the 2000s, and while part of why he was often relegated to the "meat and potatoes" numbers was due to the type of shows being booked (fairs, etc.), it was also a case of not having a bunch of rehearsal time to start adding a bunch of deep cuts.

Now, bringing up Al though does remind us of his "Storytellers" gigs, and it's worth noting that Al is likely not really making any substantial money doing those gigs. He *has* to be doing them for the fun of it, and to just be out there.

So if Brian was up for that sort of a gig, then that might be a good thing to try out.
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« Reply #315 on: August 09, 2019, 08:39:04 AM »

How about considering a simple explanation - That which suggests Brian for decades was known as a recluse who stayed in bed and wore a bathrobe and would not take the stage, then did a solo tour in 1999 where he was hesitant and understandably nervous, but did the tour and subsequent tours to rave reviews and a terrific (and supportive) band of top-notch musicians who could play all of his music...and discovered he liked interacting with his audiences and fans as a stage performer.

I always wondered if Brian was trying to make up for lost time from all of those recluse years where he only made sporadic appearances and reconnecting with his fan base as performer to audience, and in the process found he enjoyed it. And the fact that he was not tied down to a notion of playing with "The Beach Boys" according to or connected with Mike after 1998 and could do his shows and play his songs with his own band for his fans...this going back to that first tour in 1999. No limits.
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« Reply #316 on: August 09, 2019, 08:45:11 AM »

This is probably a piece of speculation that is going a bit too far, I understand if I'm called out for it. I do not believe anyone is making tour but Brian Wilson himself. Is it possible that Brian is forcing himself to do this? Is he actually causing himself physical pain and making himself get out on the road and on stage even when he isn't physically or mentally for it? Pressure to do this could come from a past of NOT doing it that much, the success of recent years, a desire to keep the music alive on stage etc. Maybe those around him should try and convince him of a different performance arrangement. Maybe he could work out a residency arrangement close to home at a theatre somewhere, like Billy Joel has done at MSG and do one or two appearances in big cities elsewhere in the country at his leisure.

Yes, I bought up the residency approach after seeing him last year. Surely some LA-area theater or club would love to have him and the band play every month or two. It would be easier for everyone and be along the lines of what Chuck Berry did for the last decade or so with Blueberry Hill in St. Louis.

A residency is something that should have been explored years ago. As Howie Edelson pointed out, that would have been the best way to continue with the full band past 2012 - a lucrative Las Vegas residency.

While I'm sure Brian could do a once or several times per month residence in the SoCal area, I do think that scenario doesn't address one of the reasons Brian does his tours. Among the many reasons, one reason surely *is* to make money. Doing a gig every month or two in LA won't make them any money. It would be good to stay active. But it wouldn't make money; they'd probably be lucky to break even, especially playing a club type venue. They'd probably also have some band retention issues and more subbing going on, and also any time a band only convenes once every month or two, it doesn't *typically* allow for a particularly adventurous setlist. I know Brian's band can whip something up *very fast*, so anything would be possible.

That type of sporadic touring is what Al did for many years in the 2000s, and while part of why he was often relegated to the "meat and potatoes" numbers was due to the type of shows being booked (fairs, etc.), it was also a case of not having a bunch of rehearsal time to start adding a bunch of deep cuts.

That's pure opinion to say "the best way to continue" would have been a Vegas residency. The one part of that which no supporters of that idea address is how many fans would not be able to afford to take a vacation and travel to Vegas versus seeing the show close to their own homes, and also the stagnation that might set in with doing show after show on the same stage with the same basic layout. Part of the touring life which some performers actually enjoy is getting to travel to different locales and meet different fans and see the sights in different areas. You can't do that when you have a residency that has you showing up at the same stage, same place and time every night. Some performers can do that and enjoy it...no need to list them. But others don't. I consider the notion that fans have been saying Brian and perhaps others in the band may be "bored" doing the Pet Sounds album live...how about doing the same show night after night on the same stage for fans in Vegas who can afford to fly there to see it?
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« Reply #317 on: August 09, 2019, 08:50:53 AM »

In terms of how much Brian “wants” to be touring, I’ve never understood why some folks find it hard to believe that it can kinda be both at the same time. That is, Brian likes some aspects of touring and not others. I’ve pitched this sort of rhetorical question in the past: Have you ever not wanted to do something, but know you should do it, or that despite not wanting to do it you’ll probably actually enjoy it and/or get something out of it? And have you ever had someone around you helping you decide whether to do it? Maybe someone egging you on or helping to motivate you?

Many folks in the know have often pointed out that when Brian *really* doesn’t want to do something, he makes sure that’s what happens.

That doesn’t mean he’s never had any doubts or apprehension about touring, or days when we’d rather be at home eating a steak and watching TV.
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« Reply #318 on: August 09, 2019, 08:57:58 AM »

In terms of how much Brian “wants” to be touring, I’ve never understood why some folks find it hard to believe that it can kinda be both at the same time. That is, Brian likes some aspects of touring and not others. I’ve pitched this sort of rhetorical question in the past: Have you ever not wanted to do something, but know you should do it, or that despite not wanting to do it you’ll probably actually enjoy it and/or get something out of it? And have you ever had someone around you helping you decide whether to do it? Maybe someone egging you on or helping to motivate you?

Many folks in the know have often pointed out that when Brian *really* doesn’t want to do something, he makes sure that’s what happens.

That doesn’t mean he’s never had any doubts or apprehension about touring, or days when we’d rather be at home eating a steak and watching TV.


Yes - for example, I don't really look forward to reading a book like Les Miserables or War and Peace but I do because I think it will make me a more fulfilled person in the long run, intellectually and spiritually. Personally, I don't see this as the same thing as performing a concert. Even here, nobody on this page has suggested that reasons he is doing it is for a kind of spiritual or edifying fulfillment, but rather, he wants unconditional love from strangers and money. If those were the reasons I had for pushing myself into doing things that I sometimes didn't want to do, then I would hope I would re-evaluate my priorities and either not do those things or find what is actually important about doing them.
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« Reply #319 on: August 09, 2019, 08:59:48 AM »

That's pure opinion to say "the best way to continue" would have been a Vegas residency. The one part of that which no supporters of that idea address is how many fans would not be able to afford to take a vacation and travel to Vegas versus seeing the show close to their own homes, and also the stagnation that might set in with doing show after show on the same stage with the same basic layout. Part of the touring life which some performers actually enjoy is getting to travel to different locales and meet different fans and see the sights in different areas. You can't do that when you have a residency that has you showing up at the same stage, same place and time every night. Some performers can do that and enjoy it...no need to list them. But others don't. I consider the notion that fans have been saying Brian and perhaps others in the band may be "bored" doing the Pet Sounds album live...how about doing the same show night after night on the same stage for fans in Vegas who can afford to fly there to see it?

Yes, of course it’s opinion.

By “best way to continue” with the reunion band, what I meant was the best way to simply *keep the reunion going.* Of course there would be pros and cons to that scenario. I’ve pointed out many, many times when discussing the “Vegas residency” theory that a main drawback for fans would be that most of them would not be able to see the show. And yes, while Vegas residencies and shows in general aren’t as short as they were 30 years ago, there would certainly not be any three-hour, 61-song setlists on a Vegas residency. But it would allow for plenty of rotation of songs.

Now, a lot of those theoretical discussions didn’t necessarily involve planting in Vegas permanently with no “road dates” so to speak. But go back and read Howie’s posts on the subject. He was talking to people inside the organization, and people in the industry. “Doing Vegas” would have been about holding the reunion together, by eliminating a lot of the political/organizational stuff that was clearly causing kerfuffles in the “reunion” machine.

The idea would be that the residence would, first, secure them a TON of cash up front most likely. Then, they’d start raking in the money and not have nearly as much promoter/agent/family business advisor stuff going on. They could have done a few more international legs in 2013, maybe another round of US dates to hit markets they didn’t hit in 2012, and then they could have settled into a Vegas residency, where they could book studio time in Vegas and work on albums, and they’d surely still have off time for Mike to do private/corporate gigs and whatnot.

Is a Vegas residency what Mike would have wanted? Maybe/probably not. I don’t think Brian or Al or David would have balked at the idea; I don’t think any of them are *so fixated* on the idea of traveling that they would have passed up good money and a chance to keep the reunion band together.

But yes, it’s all opinion and theoreticals that largely don’t matter anymore.
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Juice Brohnston
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« Reply #320 on: August 09, 2019, 09:04:20 AM »

I completely agree with the idea that as long as people pay to see Brian perform, then ultimately that is the marker.


Personally speaking, I disagree and I think most people would disagree with that as a principle. For example, if I produced heroin, there would probably be a huge and endless market for it. That being said, I wouldn't personally feel good about continuing to supply people with heroin, even if they wanted it and kept coming back for it.

Now, surely, someone will miss my point here and interpret this as me comparing going to a Brian Wilson concert to taking heroin, which I'm not doing. What I am doing is saying that we don't really accept as a principle that we should keep supplying a product as long as there is a market for it.

Sure, and I get what you are saying...and let's face it we encounter inferior goods and services pretty much every day of our lives, and some we continue to consume, and some we decide that no, there isn't any value for us in purchasing. And some still, are removed from the marketplace for legal, ethical and safety reasons. Some continue to exist in 'black' markets, obviously based on demand.

I guess my point is that since everything is subjective, there may be a lot of people who want to buy tickets to see Brian perform, regardless of the quality of 'his' performance: vocally or otherwise. A hardcore Brianista might be happy to shell out big bucks just to be in the same venue as Brian...and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #321 on: August 09, 2019, 09:11:39 AM »

I completely agree with the idea that as long as people pay to see Brian perform, then ultimately that is the marker.


Personally speaking, I disagree and I think most people would disagree with that as a principle. For example, if I produced heroin, there would probably be a huge and endless market for it. That being said, I wouldn't personally feel good about continuing to supply people with heroin, even if they wanted it and kept coming back for it.

Now, surely, someone will miss my point here and interpret this as me comparing going to a Brian Wilson concert to taking heroin, which I'm not doing. What I am doing is saying that we don't really accept as a principle that we should keep supplying a product as long as there is a market for it.

Sure, and I get what you are saying...and let's face it we encounter inferior goods and services pretty much every day of our lives, and some we continue to consume, and some we decide that no, there isn't any value for us in purchasing. And some still, are removed from the marketplace for legal, ethical and safety reasons. Some continue to exist in 'black' markets, obviously based on demand.

I guess my point is that since everything is subjective, there may be a lot of people who want to buy tickets to see Brian perform, regardless of the quality of 'his' performance: vocally or otherwise. A hardcore Brianista might be happy to shell out big bucks just to be in the same venue as Brian...and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Well, I know you didn't say otherwise, but again personally I do think it's a bit strange if people are paying money just to be in the same venue as someone else. Again, if I was doing that, I would seriously sit down and re-evaluate some things about who I am but I'm not going to put that on someone else.

Furthermore, in a very hypothetical situation, if I felt that my buying a ticket to see someone do a concert was preventing that person from dealing with their issues in the healthiest way possible, then I might actually consider there being something wrong with that. To give an example that some of you might know, there's a comedian named Artie Lange who is a very troubled person. I don't follow his constant activities so he might be in jail now or he might not be. For years, many people close to Lange told him that he had to stop doing stand-up shows because it was a big factor in him turning back to drug and alcohol abuse; however, for him, the money factor was just too great. To pass up these shows meant passing up big money. But I think it is absolutely the case that buying a ticket to see his shows was in some ways contributing to his issues.
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« Reply #322 on: August 09, 2019, 09:33:11 AM »

Some interesting questions and theoretical situations.

Ultimately, though, Brian is 77 and has limited time. As do we all. He and those close to him have to decide how to best spend that time.

I don't know that intensive therapy now would make a real difference. When it might have, he had Landy instead.

TBH, the shows have been more challenging for me since the BB reunion ended. The addition of Al and Blondie fundamentally changed the shows and BW's involvement in them. Now, that might have been necessary to keep solo touring a going concern. But to me, there hasn't been a big difference in the shows since then.
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« Reply #323 on: August 09, 2019, 10:10:27 AM »

That's pure opinion to say "the best way to continue" would have been a Vegas residency. The one part of that which no supporters of that idea address is how many fans would not be able to afford to take a vacation and travel to Vegas versus seeing the show close to their own homes, and also the stagnation that might set in with doing show after show on the same stage with the same basic layout. Part of the touring life which some performers actually enjoy is getting to travel to different locales and meet different fans and see the sights in different areas. You can't do that when you have a residency that has you showing up at the same stage, same place and time every night. Some performers can do that and enjoy it...no need to list them. But others don't. I consider the notion that fans have been saying Brian and perhaps others in the band may be "bored" doing the Pet Sounds album live...how about doing the same show night after night on the same stage for fans in Vegas who can afford to fly there to see it?

Yes, of course it’s opinion.

By “best way to continue” with the reunion band, what I meant was the best way to simply *keep the reunion going.* Of course there would be pros and cons to that scenario. I’ve pointed out many, many times when discussing the “Vegas residency” theory that a main drawback for fans would be that most of them would not be able to see the show. And yes, while Vegas residencies and shows in general aren’t as short as they were 30 years ago, there would certainly not be any three-hour, 61-song setlists on a Vegas residency. But it would allow for plenty of rotation of songs.

Now, a lot of those theoretical discussions didn’t necessarily involve planting in Vegas permanently with no “road dates” so to speak. But go back and read Howie’s posts on the subject. He was talking to people inside the organization, and people in the industry. “Doing Vegas” would have been about holding the reunion together, by eliminating a lot of the political/organizational stuff that was clearly causing kerfuffles in the “reunion” machine.

The idea would be that the residence would, first, secure them a TON of cash up front most likely. Then, they’d start raking in the money and not have nearly as much promoter/agent/family business advisor stuff going on. They could have done a few more international legs in 2013, maybe another round of US dates to hit markets they didn’t hit in 2012, and then they could have settled into a Vegas residency, where they could book studio time in Vegas and work on albums, and they’d surely still have off time for Mike to do private/corporate gigs and whatnot.

Is a Vegas residency what Mike would have wanted? Maybe/probably not. I don’t think Brian or Al or David would have balked at the idea; I don’t think any of them are *so fixated* on the idea of traveling that they would have passed up good money and a chance to keep the reunion band together.

But yes, it’s all opinion and theoreticals that largely don’t matter anymore.


I'll agree to disagree with the ideas of doing a Vegas stint as a way to hold the reunion together. If we're supposed to believe Mike's accounts of how it all happened, the C50 was all but done as soon as he started booking one-offs like Nutty Jerry's and the shows in Central or South America that never happened. Mike was out, over and done as soon as the last UK show, and that's how it was. There were offers on the table for one-off stadium gigs, high profile venues, that would have justified the continuation more than a perhaps months-long Vegas contract, and Mike wanted to do his own thing. It really was as simple as that.

Vegas residencies in general also depend on a certain image or feel to the shows, if that makes sense. The artists with recent successful Vegas residencies more often if not usually feature more lavish stage shows, choreography, visual effects, big costume changes, etc. The Beach Boys - let's be honest - get up on stage and play the music. Brian, Al, Blondie...same thing. People don't go there for visual spectacles, costume changes, lavish sets and plots...they go to hear the music.

Remember the dancing girls Mike had on stage with the band...would a Vegas stint of any significance have made them return to that kind of schtick to attract a "Vegas audience" beyond the diehard fanbase? Would there be a draw for a fan from the Northeast to see a BB's or Brian residency show in Vegas one year, and return to Vegas to see basically the same show later that year?

I never agreed with the Vegas thing because the Beach Boys are not a Vegas type of act, Brian's solo shows are not a Vegas style act, and I'd hate to see the Beach Boys return to the dancing and cheerleaders and hula skirts and gaudy fake palm trees and surfboards on stage if they had to do this to shape a Vegas style stage act. We're fortunate all that stuff went away when it did. (or is that wheeeeennnnnnn it did?). There is something to be said when a legacy act takes to the stage and plays their music for the fans, minus all the schtick and visual bombast.

 
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #324 on: August 09, 2019, 10:19:03 AM »

I completely agree with the idea that as long as people pay to see Brian perform, then ultimately that is the marker.


Personally speaking, I disagree and I think most people would disagree with that as a principle. For example, if I produced heroin, there would probably be a huge and endless market for it. That being said, I wouldn't personally feel good about continuing to supply people with heroin, even if they wanted it and kept coming back for it.

Now, surely, someone will miss my point here and interpret this as me comparing going to a Brian Wilson concert to taking heroin, which I'm not doing. What I am doing is saying that we don't really accept as a principle that we should keep supplying a product as long as there is a market for it.

Sure, and I get what you are saying...and let's face it we encounter inferior goods and services pretty much every day of our lives, and some we continue to consume, and some we decide that no, there isn't any value for us in purchasing. And some still, are removed from the marketplace for legal, ethical and safety reasons. Some continue to exist in 'black' markets, obviously based on demand.

I guess my point is that since everything is subjective, there may be a lot of people who want to buy tickets to see Brian perform, regardless of the quality of 'his' performance: vocally or otherwise. A hardcore Brianista might be happy to shell out big bucks just to be in the same venue as Brian...and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Well, I know you didn't say otherwise, but again personally I do think it's a bit strange if people are paying money just to be in the same venue as someone else. Again, if I was doing that, I would seriously sit down and re-evaluate some things about who I am but I'm not going to put that on someone else.

Furthermore, in a very hypothetical situation, if I felt that my buying a ticket to see someone do a concert was preventing that person from dealing with their issues in the healthiest way possible, then I might actually consider there being something wrong with that. To give an example that some of you might know, there's a comedian named Artie Lange who is a very troubled person. I don't follow his constant activities so he might be in jail now or he might not be. For years, many people close to Lange told him that he had to stop doing stand-up shows because it was a big factor in him turning back to drug and alcohol abuse; however, for him, the money factor was just too great. To pass up these shows meant passing up big money. But I think it is absolutely the case that buying a ticket to see his shows was in some ways contributing to his issues.

You could make the same case about any number of entertainers through the years. Look at Britney Spears, who just had a very successful and profitable Vegas residency, after some very disturbing mental health related meltdowns, followed by even more of the same after the residency ended. Were people buying tickets to her shows contributing to all she was dealing with?

I'd also look further back to the 50's and 60's - Were people watching TV and laughing at Oscar Levant and Jonathan Winters, to name two, contributing to their mental health issues? These two were hilarious guests, however they also were dealing with severe mental health issues that required treatment at psychiatric facilities, and in some appearances viewers would watch and laugh at Oscar Levant literally zoning out on TV due to his issues, and laughing like it was his schtick or some kind of a comedy bit.

But maybe - and I honestly don't know - performing for the public was how they were dealing with the issues. The power to make people happy and make them laugh is a really, really strong emotion just the same, and I don't know how much I'd guilt audiences who would go see them no matter what their reasons.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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