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Author Topic: Pet Sounds Desk - still in existence?  (Read 3489 times)
Hickory Violet Part IV
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« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2018, 09:50:52 AM »

I know, I know,, you're really not pointing out to me anything I don't already know.

I'm just not as quick to dismiss a quote from the man himself, over another quote from someone who by his own admission was very stoned throughout this period. And the photos. I know. I know Brian used the board. I don't need to see evidence.

As you have just posted that clipping in a dismissive 'final word' sort of way though,  I'll leave it there also.  Unconvinced by your argument.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:52:36 AM by Hickory Violet Part IV » Logged
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2018, 10:04:28 AM »

I know, I know,, you're really not pointing out to me anything I don't already know.

I'm just not as quick to dismiss a quote from the man himself, over another quote from someone who by his own admission was very stoned throughout this period. And the photos. I know. I know Brian used the board. I don't need to see evidence.

As you have just posted that clipping in a dismissive 'final word' sort of way though,  I'll leave it there also.  Unconvinced by your argument.

I'm not arguing or being dismissive, I'm just reposting those photos to show examples for people who weren't around in 2013 or whenever I posted all that stuff to show Brian at the Western 3 board mixing on 8-track, and to show what Chuck Britz looked like in some shots you don't see as often as the egg nog one, for example.

Re-read Vosse's recollections of the Smile sessions. He nails every description of the tracks which we could finally hear for ourselves decades later, and maybe one or two which may or may not be out there to hear. To dismiss him on the basis he was stoned all the time isn't supported at all by his actual descriptions of that era in his article from a year or so after he witnessed and heard all this stuff. I'm just saying it's a bit unfair to write off what the man said on the basis he was too stoned to have a good memory of it, because his memory in that article is right on the money as we can hear for ourselves.

And it's not dismissing what Chuck said or pushing an agenda to mention how there isn't enough context in the quote to nail down exactly what Chuck was describing, or what exactly was being done at the board. In the Columbia incident, Brian reached for a control on the board and had his hand slapped by a union engineer, that we know was done because of that engineer strictly following the rules of the union. In the case of Chuck Britz, again there is more evidence to show Chuck was not running sessions with Brian that way, in fact it was generally the opposite. And it's not just stoned ramblings backing that up.  Smiley

And I think it was up to the actual engineer how strictly they followed these "rules". I'll go back to hearing Phil Ramone describe a similar incident he experienced a few decades later where his hands were slapped down by an engineer because that engineer thought the rules of the union should be strictly enforced...because Phil Ramone being a world-class engineer himself was at that session as producer, and it wasn't his job to adjust knobs or faders. That's following the "rules" strictly by the book, but not everyone did that, in fact most I'd say did not. Now it's a moot point except maybe in the broadcast TV or radio business where those sound engineers still carry union cards and follow the rules more than in the music biz.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 10:05:56 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2018, 10:45:39 AM »

Let's not overcomplicate something that's pretty simple (in my opinion):

* Engineers generally don't like producers messing with the board
* I doubt anyone would habitually physically remove Producer Brian Wilson's hand from a board
* Brian clearly put his hands all over the boards at both Western and Columbia, and presumably every other studio he worked at
* It's safe to assume generally BW was "producing" more than "mixing" or running the board
* Anecdotes from Britz, Bruce Johnston, etc. are just that -- anecdotes

Union rules be damned, this was the '60s!
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Juice Brohnston
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« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2018, 10:58:00 AM »

Neil Young says in his Autobiography that Pet Sounds was recorded on the 'Green Board' that he purchased and moved to his ranch. Is that accurate?
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Hickory Violet Part IV
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« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2018, 11:35:10 AM »

I know, I know,, you're really not pointing out to me anything I don't already know.

I'm just not as quick to dismiss a quote from the man himself, over another quote from someone who by his own admission was very stoned throughout this period. And the photos. I know. I know Brian used the board. I don't need to see evidence.

As you have just posted that clipping in a dismissive 'final word' sort of way though,  I'll leave it there also.  Unconvinced by your argument.

I'm not arguing or being dismissive, I'm just reposting those photos to show examples for people who weren't around in 2013 or whenever I posted all that stuff to show Brian at the Western 3 board mixing on 8-track, and to show what Chuck Britz looked like in some shots you don't see as often as the egg nog one, for example.

Re-read Vosse's recollections of the Smile sessions. He nails every description of the tracks which we could finally hear for ourselves decades later, and maybe one or two which may or may not be out there to hear. To dismiss him on the basis he was stoned all the time isn't supported at all by his actual descriptions of that era in his article from a year or so after he witnessed and heard all this stuff. I'm just saying it's a bit unfair to write off what the man said on the basis he was too stoned to have a good memory of it, because his memory in that article is right on the money as we can hear for ourselves.

And it's not dismissing what Chuck said or pushing an agenda to mention how there isn't enough context in the quote to nail down exactly what Chuck was describing, or what exactly was being done at the board. In the Columbia incident, Brian reached for a control on the board and had his hand slapped by a union engineer, that we know was done because of that engineer strictly following the rules of the union. In the case of Chuck Britz, again there is more evidence to show Chuck was not running sessions with Brian that way, in fact it was generally the opposite. And it's not just stoned ramblings backing that up.  Smiley

And I think it was up to the actual engineer how strictly they followed these "rules". I'll go back to hearing Phil Ramone describe a similar incident he experienced a few decades later where his hands were slapped down by an engineer because that engineer thought the rules of the union should be strictly enforced...because Phil Ramone being a world-class engineer himself was at that session as producer, and it wasn't his job to adjust knobs or faders. That's following the "rules" strictly by the book, but not everyone did that, in fact most I'd say did not. Now it's a moot point except maybe in the broadcast TV or radio business where those sound engineers still carry union cards and follow the rules more than in the music biz.


All fair points Craig. I still think there's more to that quote, but I'll stop going on about it. Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2018, 02:00:00 PM »

Neil Young says in his Autobiography that Pet Sounds was recorded on the 'Green Board' that he purchased and moved to his ranch. Is that accurate?

From what I've gathered from the more knowledgeable replies, no, in a word.

Although it's possible some of the modules used for PS could have made their way into that board. The 610 modules and chassis used for PS were likely sold to Papa John Phillips and then later dismantled in Canada.

The thread sort of broke down into an argument about Brian's autonomy (or lack of) over the mixing desk at Columbia (lol).
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« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2018, 03:01:57 PM »

Neil Young says in his Autobiography that Pet Sounds was recorded on the 'Green Board' that he purchased and moved to his ranch. Is that accurate?

From what I've gathered from the more knowledgeable replies, no, in a word.

Although it's possible some of the modules used for PS could have made their way into that board. The 610 modules and chassis used for PS were likely sold to Papa John Phillips and then later dismantled in Canada.

The thread sort of broke down into an argument about Brian's autonomy (or lack of) over the mixing desk at Columbia (lol).

I know that Sly Stone bought John Philips' house, including the studio (where the group recorded the Papas & Mamas LP), and recorded There's a Riot Goin' On there. Not details about whether or not it was the same board. Curious about how it ended up in Canada, etc.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2018, 09:12:06 PM »

From a vintage/classic gear point of view, yes it seems like a travesty to have that amazing sounding gear parted out or even scrapped but by rights, in terms of the era, the Western gear was obsolete in terms of technology a few years after Pet Sounds was recorded. So it was either a case of people thinking ahead and preserving it (collector/historical mindset) or upgrading (business mindset). Studios were operating to make a profit...who knew that gear which Papa John bought would someday be truly appreciated for what it is.

I remember reading how difficult it was in 1977 for Emerick and Martin to compile and mix the Beatles Hollywood Bowl release. They could not easily find a well-maintained 3-track machine setup from that era to even run the tapes to mix/transfer them from the masters...at that time. The one they did get overheated so they had to blow a vacuum into it to cool it down.  

This is technology 13 years or so removed from when it was state of the art. That's pretty amazing. 13 years ago, 2004-2005...imagine not being able to find a particular piece of gear from 2005 or around that time. It's pretty laughable by today's standards and in the context of time. But that's how quickly gear progressed and was deemed obsolete in the 60's. 4-track recording as the standard medium was only around for a scant few years, when it's put into the big picture of perspective.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:13:25 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2018, 09:34:49 PM »

Neil Young says in his Autobiography that Pet Sounds was recorded on the 'Green Board' that he purchased and moved to his ranch. Is that accurate?

From what I've gathered from the more knowledgeable replies, no, in a word.

Although it's possible some of the modules used for PS could have made their way into that board. The 610 modules and chassis used for PS were likely sold to Papa John Phillips and then later dismantled in Canada.

The thread sort of broke down into an argument about Brian's autonomy (or lack of) over the mixing desk at Columbia (lol).

I know that Sly Stone bought John Philips' house, including the studio (where the group recorded the Papas & Mamas LP), and recorded There's a Riot Goin' On there. Not details about whether or not it was the same board. Curious about how it ended up in Canada, etc.

I can say with certainty that Neil Young's "Green Board" was not the same one. The green board was originally owned by Wally Heider and Wally used it mostly for remote live recordings, then Neil bought it direct from Wally and installed it at his ranch studio.

Interesting BB connection, though. The Green board was constructed by Frank DeMedio who *also* built the board which was used to record the Hawaii concerts in August 1967, through Wally Heider's rental and mobile recording services. In fact DeMedio had to work up to the last minute on that console before it was sent to Hawaii for the Beach Boys.
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2018, 09:37:42 PM »

Neil Young says in his Autobiography that Pet Sounds was recorded on the 'Green Board' that he purchased and moved to his ranch. Is that accurate?

From what I've gathered from the more knowledgeable replies, no, in a word.

Although it's possible some of the modules used for PS could have made their way into that board. The 610 modules and chassis used for PS were likely sold to Papa John Phillips and then later dismantled in Canada.

The thread sort of broke down into an argument about Brian's autonomy (or lack of) over the mixing desk at Columbia (lol).

The modules in the green board are the same as the ones in the Western Studio 2 console. They are not the same as the ones in the Studio 3 console which had the buss (track) select in the frame not in the module. As far as I know only two of the earlier Studio 3 type consoles were ever built.

The Neil Young console was an earlyWally Heider  remote console
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2018, 09:37:42 PM »

*This* is the board Frank DeMedio built to be sent to Hawaii, in use by Brian and Jim Lockert in Hawaii...with a glimpse of some guy wearing a cabbie cap in between. lol

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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2018, 09:47:17 PM »

And I found this shot of Neil's studio in use, showing the Green Board installed and on the right while Neil's "Brass Board" is the one being used:



EDIT: Look in the foreground, lower right in the photo and you'll see a 610 module sitting solo.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:49:17 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2018, 09:58:16 PM »

And *this* was an early board designed by Bill Putnam and used for remote recordings in the 60's, some done and later rented by Wally Heider, which was part of a presentation and exhibit at an AES convention in 2000:



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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2018, 03:03:15 AM »

Neil Young says in his Autobiography that Pet Sounds was recorded on the 'Green Board' that he purchased and moved to his ranch. Is that accurate?

From what I've gathered from the more knowledgeable replies, no, in a word.

Although it's possible some of the modules used for PS could have made their way into that board. The 610 modules and chassis used for PS were likely sold to Papa John Phillips and then later dismantled in Canada.

The thread sort of broke down into an argument about Brian's autonomy (or lack of) over the mixing desk at Columbia (lol).

I know that Sly Stone bought John Philips' house, including the studio (where the group recorded the Papas & Mamas LP), and recorded There's a Riot Goin' On there. Not details about whether or not it was the same board. Curious about how it ended up in Canada, etc.

I think Sly recorded Riot on the N32 Matrix https://reverb.com/uk/item/2334814-sly-stone-s-custom-flickinger-n32-matrix-recording-console
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« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2018, 09:51:56 AM »

And I found this shot of Neil's studio in use, showing the Green Board installed and on the right while Neil's "Brass Board" is the one being used:



EDIT: Look in the foreground, lower right in the photo and you'll see a 610 module sitting solo.

Elliot Mazer at the controls during the 'Everybody's Rockin' ' sessions, I think, lol an album far removed from Pet Sounds!!
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« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2018, 08:31:28 AM »

Going off topic here, but when these TASCAM portastudios arrived in the late 70's, is there any evidence that any of the band had/used them? I know Springsteen, Lou Reed etc were fond of them. Did Brian still have a home studio at that point? Al would have build his by then, I think. Maybe these guys had access to much more sophisticated gear. Just curious if someone like Carl would have had one on the road with him.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2018, 10:26:31 AM »

And I found this shot of Neil's studio in use, showing the Green Board installed and on the right while Neil's "Brass Board" is the one being used:



EDIT: Look in the foreground, lower right in the photo and you'll see a 610 module sitting solo.

Elliot Mazer at the controls during the 'Everybody's Rockin' ' sessions, I think, lol an album far removed from Pet Sounds!!

Good catch on ID'ing Mazer at the Brass Board! The photo is from the "Old Ways" project and sessions, though, a few years after "Rockin'"
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2018, 05:32:49 AM »

And I found this shot of Neil's studio in use, showing the Green Board installed and on the right while Neil's "Brass Board" is the one being used:



EDIT: Look in the foreground, lower right in the photo and you'll see a 610 module sitting solo.

Elliot Mazer at the controls during the 'Everybody's Rockin' ' sessions, I think, lol an album far removed from Pet Sounds!!

Good catch on ID'ing Mazer at the Brass Board! The photo is from the "Old Ways" project and sessions, though, a few years after "Rockin'"

You may be right, though I thought the bulk of Old Ways was recorded down in Nashville.
There are some other photos from presumably the same shoot (Mazer has on the same shirt) where it looks like '83 Neil as opposed to '84-85 Neil lol. And 'The Redwood Boys, are also in the photo...but then again those guys were on Old Ways sessions as well I think.
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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2018, 07:31:07 AM »

Going off topic here, but when these TASCAM portastudios arrived in the late 70's, is there any evidence that any of the band had/used them? I know Springsteen, Lou Reed etc were fond of them. Did Brian still have a home studio at that point? Al would have build his by then, I think. Maybe these guys had access to much more sophisticated gear. Just curious if someone like Carl would have had one on the road with him.

I don't have an answer for this, but it's an interesting question. I wouldn't be surprised if Brian had some sort of mechanism for recording demos along those lines in the Landy era. Something more elaborate than just setting a boom box with a mic next to a piano, but less elaborate than a studio situation.

I think what Carl was doing in the 80s and 90s is a big, big mystery. I sense (whether recorded on a portastudio or in some other fashion) that Carl recorded demos over the years that we've never heard one note from. He mentions in a circa 1986 interview (post-'85 album) that he's writing more material with Robert White Johnson. Considering the only post-1985 Carl-penned material we have are his hand full of songs on the "Beckley Lamm Wilson" album, I'd *have* to imagine there are some Carl songs/demos somewhere.

Would Carl's estate really be that tight with such Carl recordings though? Would they really hold on to them for 20 years without mentioning them to BB archivists, etc.? So I dunno, maybe there *isn't* much.
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