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Author Topic: Beach Boys Help Light The National Christmas Tree WITH PROMO PHOTO  (Read 3530 times)
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2017, 12:41:09 AM »

ok i git the last post. but u have to understasnd..... when  guitar fool  or hey jude post conversation ends... they know everything.. this goes back fucking years. ... lol

thanks to last  post.. stop the fucki-ng ego.. let it go.. jeez


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« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2017, 01:47:02 AM »

 jeez.. sttop with the auto tune... hurts my ears... my  GOD wear ears out.. WE got it... Mike is tone deaf.... O(K? Please.. sorry to everyone for posting while drinking.. i was out of line.. sorry
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« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2017, 05:58:47 AM »

"This Beautiful Day" is clearly pitch corrected. Especially those high notes. "If we could find a way, if you could only stay"

There's obviously no comparison between the use of pitch correction on NPP, for example, and Unleash The Love. The point I was trying to make is that it can be used as an effective tool in Brian's case (apparently so well, that someone who knows autotune software doesn't notice) and it sounds horrible when used as a crutch, in the case of Unleash The Love.
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« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2017, 06:26:54 AM »

Oh Good Lord, please not with the "No Pier Pressure" autotune debates again. This went on for seemingly hundreds of posts/pages back in 2015.

Those who are saying autotune is on the album and *aren't* familiar with those debates, please go read those threads. Nobody will likely be convinced to change their mind/opinion, but hopefully you can at least read those threads and see that just about every angle/argument/tactic was used to argue for or against the presence of autotune. Given the entire premise of the debate is subjective, I don't think anything new can be added to the debate unless someone has uncovered in-studio footage of someone using a pitch correction plug-in on a PC or something.

The point with Mike's new album isn't simply that he used autotune. The issue is most notably that it's used excessively and in a distracting fashion. Separately, Mike made specific comments critical of autotune and seemed to sort of backhandedly accuse Brian and Al of using autotune, and also *directly* implied that something would be good if autotune *wasn't* used. In this regard, even if Brian used autotune on every song and also autotuned his phone calls to his friends, he still at least wouldn't be hypocritical, as he hasn't spoken out against its use.
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« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2017, 06:41:32 AM »

COMMENT:

Having watched the Hallmark show and read all the comments here, I'll say this:

1)  I twice passed up the chance to see the M&B show in my area, because the amplification was all digital.  Forget about the natural intonation autotune destroys, listening to a live performance presented to you from a computer simulation (digital process) is, to me, just as destructive. The whole idea of going to a live show is to hear the energy produced by the performers, not a computer simulation of that energy. Many of you younger folks probably don't understand what I'm talking about since all you ever hear is digital sound. But an analog presentation, where the actual energy produced by the people on stage is merely amplified is so far removed from the digital representation we get today, makes what autotune does to the human voice seem secondary. Why go to a digitally amplified show? Just play a CD.

2)  I am really looking forward to whatever Alan has in store for his show. Alan would not be caught dead using any contraption like autotune. He is a purist. AND HE CAN SING circles around Mike or Brian. Maybe even Bruce, although Bruce still has a good voice. Besides being one of the nicest and kindest people you would wish to meet, Alan is the unappreciated Beach Boy or perhaps I should say, the  underestimated member.  Now if I can talk him into only using analog sound systems . . .


~swd   
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« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2017, 08:26:35 AM »

No Pier Pressure has plenty of examples. Nearly every track actually...it's just WAY more subtle and more tasteful than on Mike's piece of garbage.

Ok! Give me one prominent or obvious one! Track, approx time, etc., and I'll listen. That's all I ask.  Smiley

I mean if we're going to bring that up in the context of Mike's latest TV appearance and album, I want to hear where the comparison might be which led to bringing it up regarding a BW album when the topic is Mike's latest music being Autotuned to the point of being obnoxious.
Well first of all, Nate was the one who brought up auto tune, and if you bothered to read his post he obviously said it can be done TASTEFULLY, like on BW albums. You immediately got defensive about them, even thought he complimented the production. As for examples, listen to This Beautiful Day, Whatever Happened, or Guess You Had To Be There. To my ears, itís pretty obvious that there is something different about those vocals compared to say One Kind Iíd Love or TLOS. Brianís voice just sounds different, a little more electronic, whereas they sound much more organic on the two examples I gave. Again, Iím not the only one to have said this, so itís not just me pointing this out. Iím also not disagreeing or harping on Brian or whoeverís choice it was, but to say the album is completely free of it is just naive to me.



I actually own and use Antares Autotune. I know what it does, how it works, how to properly set it and mix it on tracks, and basically the whole ball of wax.

Is that naive enough?

All I'm asking is for an example, either on Gershwin, NPP, and the like. Not an outrageous request by any means.

I know Nate brought it up, which is why I replied to him and asked him the question. But I'm glad it's not just you pointing this out, whatever that's supposed to mean.

"a little more electronic"?  Ok.

Does anything at all on NPP or any of Brian's albums sound even remotely like what you heard on Mike's voice at this tree lighting or on his new album?

If NPP sounds electronic to your ears, on those tracks, how would you describe what Mike's voice sounds like on his new album? Any comparison?

So I ask you who has Mike's photo in your profile and namesake...how is there even a sliver of similarity to bring up Brian's albums, supposedly "all" of which were autotuned enough to warrant a comparisons or mention when the topic is Mike's voice being saturated with Autotune and no attempts made to mask that fact?

if Mike is such a great singer with such a strong voice, why wasn't the Autotune applied more subtly as you say it was done to sound "electronic" on those NPP tracks or any other BW releases?

Keep in mind, the way Autotune works is the more pitchy and off-key a singer is, the more Autotune will be noticeable as an effect moreso than a tool.

As it was the case, perhaps, on the C50 live release.

Maybe Mike is just a very pitchy singer who veers off key more often than not and has trouble in recent years with breath control and nailing pitches other than his "Be True To Your School" schtick.

Just watch any live version on Youtube of Kokomo or even Pisces Brothers from the last 3 years of Mike's touring, any audience recording that hasn't been treated to Autotune, and tell me Mike sings in tune consistently. He does not if those videos are any indication. And he also does not if his "disc 2" of Beach Boys remakes which are bathed in Autotune are any indication, despite Mike having sung those tunes for over 50 years.


Well first of all, you also have Mike as your profile picture. Does that mean I think youíre biased? No. Thatís a silly argument. Second, nobody tried to compare Mike and Brian, or claimed that Mike never used it. You have brought that up yourself, arguing a point that I wasnít trying to make. And in regards to consistent singing, Iím sorry to say but you could the same thing with Brianís live performances. I would know, I was there. To think that anyone of them would be pitch perfect and holding them to that standard is unfair considering they are all 70+ years old. Iím not going to respond to a lot of your post because youíre trying to argue a point nobody was making, which is Mikeís voice/use of auto tune vs. Brianís.
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« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2017, 09:11:33 AM »

COMMENT:
2)  I am really looking forward to whatever Alan has in store for his show. Alan would not be caught dead using any contraption like autotune. He is a purist. AND HE CAN SING circles around Mike or Brian. Maybe even Bruce, although Bruce still has a good voice. Besides being one of the nicest and kindest people you would wish to meet, Alan is the unappreciated Beach Boy or perhaps I should say, the  underestimated member.  Now if I can talk him into only using analog sound systems . . .


~swd   

I was always impressed that in December 1999 when recording the Las Vegas shows for his eventual "Live in Las Vegas" album, Al actually dragged an analog tape deck to Las Vegas to record them (or perhaps rented one; but I have a vague recollection of reading he brought his own).

Also, while I'm sure some ProTools entered into the "Postcard from California" process at some point, I think much if not most or all of the basic tracking for the album was done on analog tape, and that album has a great warmth to it missing from just about everything the Beach Boys have done in the studio (including still some great stuff) since the 70s.
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« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2017, 09:16:53 AM »

"This Beautiful Day" is clearly pitch corrected. Especially those high notes. "If we could find a way, if you could only stay"

There's obviously no comparison between the use of pitch correction on NPP, for example, and Unleash The Love. The point I was trying to make is that it can be used as an effective tool in Brian's case (apparently so well, that someone who knows autotune software doesn't notice) and it sounds horrible when used as a crutch, in the case of Unleash The Love.

I think Brian has used autotune and other pitch correction software/methods at various points along the way. How much of it is on NPP I don't know, and I have zero interest in entering into *that* debate again.

But, I'm not so sure the moment you're citing on "This Beautiful Day" is one of those autotune moments. Brian actually sounds strained on those notes, precisely like what a 73-year-old would sound like trying to hit those falsetto notes (I noted how refreshingly honest that part of the song sounded in my review of the album back in 2015). If I were forced to weigh in on that one, I'd say autotune is *not* on that song, especially that segment of the song.
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« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2017, 10:08:44 AM »

"This Beautiful Day" is clearly pitch corrected. Especially those high notes. "If we could find a way, if you could only stay"

There's obviously no comparison between the use of pitch correction on NPP, for example, and Unleash The Love. The point I was trying to make is that it can be used as an effective tool in Brian's case (apparently so well, that someone who knows autotune software doesn't notice) and it sounds horrible when used as a crutch, in the case of Unleash The Love.

Unleash has Autotune atrocities that dwarf any pitch correction on NPP; that said, I hear Autotune on the chorus vocals on Whatever Happened. Particularly on the words "Nothing's where...", but again, it's more just a nuisance to my ears on that album, as opposed to being caked on in unlistenable amounts on UTL.
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« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2017, 11:20:57 AM »

This is also about perspective. In Spring 2015 there was a 10-second phone video of Brian tracking a part on "On The Island" in the studio that caused a flurry of comments crying about the Autotune, followed by "The Right Time" single released via video where the same cries of Autotune started showing up (regarding Al's vocals, BTW), followed by the album release where a lot of posters here who had either just signed up or had reactivated dormant accounts started with the same comments about Autotune. In some cases, the album was declared "unlistenable" due to the audible overuse of Autotune, according to those people. And it continued elsewhere around the web.

What HJ referenced was an interview and article that Spring which David Beard did with Mike for the Examiner website where Mike made the comments about Brian using Autotune, which caused an uproar.

So weighing all of that nonsense against what anyone can hear on both discs of "Unleash The Love", "Alone On Christmas Day", and the tree lighting "live" performance along with other live broadcasts, what can be heard on Mike's vocals across all of these releases since 2015 has been *exactly* the type of overt, overuse of Autotune on lead vocals that people were attaching to the NPP album.

So yeah, if Brian and co. did use Autotune on NPP, it was nowhere near what the comments and criticisms suggested in 2015 to where it was declared so obvious it was unlistenable, but the comments are actually appropriate and valid for Mike's current releases and appearances.

Maybe it's just a case of wanting some kind of balance and perspective in the whole deal. And if such perspective is lacking, perhaps a simple listening session where NPP and "Unleash The Love" get played side-by-side to where the difference between overusing Autotune and not (despite the commentary) will be heard crystal clear.
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« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2017, 11:27:13 AM »

I'd also like to readdress one of Nate's earlier points about who approved Mike's latest release if it is indeed that laden with Autotune and other less than pleasing sounds.

I'll repeat that we've been told many, many times how much Mike is in control of his life and career, how his business acumen is so sharp...it's difficult if not absurd to think Mike had little or no say in how his music would sound when released on his solo album and broadcast to millions on TV appearances.

In fact it's difficult to see any possibility other than Mike overseeing and giving final approval to anything with his name on it, from an album to a signature baseball cap with his new logo. Even the "That's Why God Made The Radio" album listed him as executive producer, which implies more than a passing level of control and say in what gets released and sold with his name on it.

Either that, or Mike doesn't have as much control over his career and business decisions as we're endlessly told he does.

I guess it's a case of deciding for yourself if Mike signed off on releasing an album that sounds this way or not, or whether he had any say in "Little Saint Nick" sounding as it did on the tree ceremony broadcast.
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« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2017, 01:06:06 PM »

COMMENT to guitarfool2002:

All this talk about AUTOTUNE causes me to enlighten you-all that the so-called "autotune" device you believe to be a modern function of digital technology is NOT! Here is a quote from my book, 2nd part, Recording The Beach Boys (still unpublished) talking about a conversion of the 3M multi-track machine we used.

"Both featured capstan-less drives, making possible instant speed changes as the frequency supplied to the motor was varied. A custom-made variable speed oscillator (VSO) supplied the frequency variation. The VSO was keyboard-controlled to change speed (in musical harmony) by depressing the appropriate key on the Moog musical keyboard. For example, a singer could sing one continuous single note while playing a song on the keyboard. When played back, it sounded as if the singer had sung the song, that is, made the correct (and on key) melodic note changes within the song.  Or if you worked it out, you could play harmony with yourself. All this design was figured out and built by my engineer friend Bill Whitlock (former owner of Jensen Transformers)."

I used this feature mostly for Spring since the girls had intonation problems once in a while. However I did use it sometimes for the Boys.

Although it is not instantaneous in operation, it did the same thing. Made out-of-tune notes to become in-tune. Of course this was analog technology so it did NOT have any of the sonic artifacts that the digital autotune exhibits. It was just harmonic music. But it goes to show you that most of these digital gadgets are re-cycled analog thinking. We had "autotune" 50 years ago, only it sounded natural.


~swd
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« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2017, 02:52:54 PM »

COMMENT to guitarfool2002:

All this talk about AUTOTUNE causes me to enlighten you-all that the so-called "autotune" device you believe to be a modern function of digital technology is NOT! Here is a quote from my book, 2nd part, Recording The Beach Boys (still unpublished) talking about a conversion of the 3M multi-track machine we used.

"Both featured capstan-less drives, making possible instant speed changes as the frequency supplied to the motor was varied. A custom-made variable speed oscillator (VSO) supplied the frequency variation. The VSO was keyboard-controlled to change speed (in musical harmony) by depressing the appropriate key on the Moog musical keyboard. For example, a singer could sing one continuous single note while playing a song on the keyboard. When played back, it sounded as if the singer had sung the song, that is, made the correct (and on key) melodic note changes within the song.  Or if you worked it out, you could play harmony with yourself. All this design was figured out and built by my engineer friend Bill Whitlock (former owner of Jensen Transformers)."

I used this feature mostly for Spring since the girls had intonation problems once in a while. However I did use it sometimes for the Boys.

Although it is not instantaneous in operation, it did the same thing. Made out-of-tune notes to become in-tune. Of course this was analog technology so it did NOT have any of the sonic artifacts that the digital autotune exhibits. It was just harmonic music. But it goes to show you that most of these digital gadgets are re-cycled analog thinking. We had "autotune" 50 years ago, only it sounded natural.


~swd

That is interesting, thanks for sharing, Stephen.

Personally, I don't care and am not "offended" by the use of correction like that when it's used in a generally transparent manner, without the awful robotic artifacts. I don't feel it's some awful cheat that is horrendous, shameful, and bad simply in and of itself. (This is also how I feel about CG movie effects too).

But in today's era, the minute stuff jumps out in a distracting manner where the singer sounds like a completely artificial, robotic, and nearly anonymous voice, it bugs me SO much.

As such, I think it's important to make a distinction between the tasteful, thoughtful, and highly clever ways that devices like the one you mentioned were implemented in the past, as opposed to the lazy, soulless manner that Autotune ruins so much music today.

I have no doubt that if Mike truly needs some assistance in terms of pitch correction in the studio, that it could have been applied SO, SO much better and transparently than what was released. It's a combination of how much effort the singer is willing to put into getting as perfect a take as possible, of course. And then massaging some minor imperfections in a very careful manner in the digital realm, with a keen ear towards NOT having the pitch correction sound like robotic pitch correction.

On some tracks on Unleash The Love, it feels like the tasteful approach was done, where pitch correction is invisible, or nearly so (and this may be due to no pitch correction actually being used on some tracks, or perhaps it's there and just fortunately impossible to discern). But on many other tracks, it's a whole other story, IMHO.  I do think that people having an allergic reaction to Autotune has far less to do with being mad at the idea of an artist having the nerve to need some assistance (especially as they get older), but more about the manner *how* it is implemented. To sum it up, there's tasteful application of it, and there's completely distasteful application of it. Nobody should know it's there.

I think Mike signed off on his producer either going out of his way to make it sound intentionally "tuned" to sound more like modern day radio garbage (modern pop radio music is so incredibly unlistenable to me, due in no small part to Autotune, curious to know if you'd agree with that?)... or perhaps Mike simply didn't do enough vocal takes, especially on the cover songs, and the producer was forced to cobble together what little he had to work with. Or a combination of both. There's no reason, for example, that the backing vocals (sung by talented people not in Mike's age range) on Help Me, Rhonda sound the way they do. It's completely unacceptable, utterly. I hate to be so 110% negative about any music put out by this band, but this song's backing vocals in particular deeply bug my ears in an incredibly profound way. Literally excruciating to me, a disgrace. Just being honest.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 03:06:28 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2017, 04:28:11 PM »

COMMENT to CenturyDeprived:

The BEST correction in the studio for bad singing or missing notes is not "autotune."  We've done it for years.  It's called "punching in" and re-singing the part that you didn't get right in the first place. 

What ever happened to punching in?

~swd
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« Reply #89 on: December 06, 2017, 05:27:38 PM »

I'm with Desper on this ... additionally, I have little interest in either Brian or Mike's latest music due to the very modern digital "style" apparent in everything I've heard. Overuse of Autotune is a symptom, which is quite frankly one of the less offensive qualities in my opinion.

I hope to see Al in Phoenix next month!
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« Reply #90 on: December 06, 2017, 06:22:26 PM »

COMMENT to CenturyDeprived:

The BEST correction in the studio for bad singing or missing notes is not "autotune."  We've done it for years.  It's called "punching in" and re-singing the part that you didn't get right in the first place. 

What ever happened to punching in?

~swd

Ain't that the truth!
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« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2017, 06:37:00 PM »

COMMENT to guitarfool2002:

All this talk about AUTOTUNE causes me to enlighten you-all that the so-called "autotune" device you believe to be a modern function of digital technology is NOT! Here is a quote from my book, 2nd part, Recording The Beach Boys (still unpublished) talking about a conversion of the 3M multi-track machine we used.

"Both featured capstan-less drives, making possible instant speed changes as the frequency supplied to the motor was varied. A custom-made variable speed oscillator (VSO) supplied the frequency variation. The VSO was keyboard-controlled to change speed (in musical harmony) by depressing the appropriate key on the Moog musical keyboard. For example, a singer could sing one continuous single note while playing a song on the keyboard. When played back, it sounded as if the singer had sung the song, that is, made the correct (and on key) melodic note changes within the song.  Or if you worked it out, you could play harmony with yourself. All this design was figured out and built by my engineer friend Bill Whitlock (former owner of Jensen Transformers)."

I used this feature mostly for Spring since the girls had intonation problems once in a while. However I did use it sometimes for the Boys.

Although it is not instantaneous in operation, it did the same thing. Made out-of-tune notes to become in-tune. Of course this was analog technology so it did NOT have any of the sonic artifacts that the digital autotune exhibits. It was just harmonic music. But it goes to show you that most of these digital gadgets are re-cycled analog thinking. We had "autotune" 50 years ago, only it sounded natural.


~swd

Awesome. That's what I love - The innovation and the mindset that if something doesn't exist, you create it and make it work. Thank you for sharing. I could read about this stuff all day.  Smiley
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« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2017, 06:50:02 PM »

COMMENT to CenturyDeprived:

The BEST correction in the studio for bad singing or missing notes is not "autotune."  We've done it for years.  It's called "punching in" and re-singing the part that you didn't get right in the first place.  

What ever happened to punching in?

~swd

Exactly! Spot on!  Smiley

A quick story...when my buddy and I started our studio production business 15 years ago, we made it a point not to invest in Autotune, or any of the drum sampling products that were very big at the time. We cut live drums (DW kit, awesome snare...), live guitars, live everything into Cubase, which we thought had a better flow than ProTools at that time. Had Reason too if someone wanted distressed drum loops or something, also for some keyboard sounds that were very usable in many styles.

We didn't invest in Autotune at that time also because it was kind of expensive, and we were already working to pay off the initial investments in the essential gear and keeping the gear running. Debt sucks.

But we'd get singers and songwriters in regularly, and there were pitch issues as a lot of them were not trained singers, or had not done studio recording in the past so were green to the process. What we'd do is be critical on the vocals, and go sometimes phrase by phrase trying to get it just right. That's old-school, at least in the modern mentalities, and the only modern comforts we had were automatic punch-ins in Cubase and also a slight pitch-shift control maybe up to +10 or -10 sharp or flat, which we did use but which was completely unnoticeable. Things like a bass phrase which was a victim of bad intonation, a vocal that trailed off at the end of the phrase, even one pedal steel gliss I did and remember well that fell just flat of where it needed to be. That pitch shift saved the track.

But no Autotune.

So what happened was other studios in the area did go into debt buying that stuff, like the Autotune plugins or racks, Drum-A-Gog or whatever the other popular programs were back then for sampling drums instead of mic'ing a full kit and actually playing a groove...and some of those clients we had been recording regularly began to go there.

It was because the process was faster I guess, but above all the Autotune and other bells and whistles made them sound better, or at least that's what they were convinced when they heard the vocal tracks mixed in after Autotune "fixed" and masked all the issues with pitch, breath, tone, etc. It was like the ultimate quick-fix elixir, just get on the mic and the guy at the Mac will fix it later. Whereas we were going line by line, punching in, and trying to get them to sing it right on the money.

I can understand it, it's business and competition and that competition gave these clients an easier way that required less time and effort to cut tracks, but the Autotune mindset as much as it is a great tool (which I still own after breaking down and buying it years ago) has possibly created a lot of lazy musicians for the next generations to come. I will say it does work wonders for backing vocals, though.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 06:51:29 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2017, 08:03:44 PM »

COMMENT:

"AUTOTUNE ,  personified as the engineer"


This one minute clip is a MUST SEE !!

>>> https://www.wimp.com/life-as-a-recording-engineer/

~swd
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« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2017, 07:15:22 AM »

Amazing! LOL LOL LOL
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