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Author Topic: Your SMiLE sequence  (Read 2260 times)
The Old Master Painter
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« on: October 22, 2017, 11:39:45 AM »

 Yes, this thread will become very hypothetical, perhaps much to the dismay of any avid-researcher, but through such hypotheticals, the goal is to be creative with the resources and information at one’s disposal in order to create a track-sequence for the proposed Smile project; if it were ever realized as a compilation of incomplete sessions considerate of the original intent behind the project, or as a completed-product In 1966/7.
 It’s late 1966, you’re at a press-party and have the opportunity to speak to Brian Wilson. You’re aware that any decision you make will greatly impact the course of the future. You only have one comment or advice to give; what would you tell Brian? To continue further; imagine you are at the helm of Brian’s social-circles, and have the opportunity to contribute your ideas to the new Beach Boys’ album; Smile. What ideas would you contribute to Smile? What would you change about the music, of anything?
And now to perhaps the reason why I started this thread; what track-sequence would you offer Brian for Smile in late-1966; just as he is completing the album for release on Christmas, 1966?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 11:41:46 AM by The Old Master Painter » Logged
The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2017, 11:45:19 AM »

I thought I’d offer my own track-sequence as a way to start this thread rolling. Let’s get to it, shall we?

Our Prayer- edited version with 10 seconds omitted, based on a 1966 edit
1. Good Vibrations (inc. I Ran)
2. Cabin Essence
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Wind Chimes (inc. Holidays)
5. Wonderful

6. Heroes and Villains
7. The Old Master Painter
8. The Elements (inc. My Vega-Tables)
9. Child is The Father of The Man
10. Surf’s Up (inc. Our Prayer excerpt [the edited 10 seconds appear here])
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Hickory Violet Part IV
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2017, 12:31:28 PM »

Prayer into Vibes, just as was originally intended. Sonically, harmonically, it just works.

I always thought that Prayer was superceded as 'intro to the album' later, when Brian decided to open the album with H&V instead.  He then recorded You're Welcome as the new intro.

So Prayer could have opened side 2.

Not sure about your I Ran folowing GV. I have it on good authority (from Darian), that the Wonderful / I Ran edit, and Barnyard / Old Master Painter edit are vintage ideas. He said Brian just slotted those bits together without a thought.

Other possible vintage edits are Bridge To Indians into Worms.

Regarding banding, I think there would have been some, but there woukd have also been some long sequences containing several songs / sections.. In my Smile questions thread the other day, I was chasing down that VDP quote about the album being a traditional 12 track album with banding.

Turns out it was something supposedly said to a certain now banned member who has been known to fabricate stuff when there was an agenda to be pushed.

So I would offer Brian this.....

Numbers to indicate banding

Side 1

1) You're Welcome
     Heroes and Villians part I (following Durrie Parks acetate description into..)
     I'm In Great Shape (followed by 3 score and 5 into.....)
     Barnyard
     Old Master Painter
     Sunsine

 2) H&V part II
        (starting with piano Bicycle Rider theme, various part II sections plus Cantina. Ends wiith Prelude to fade.
          Solo trombone into Bridge To Indians)
      Do you Like Worms

3) Cabinessence

Side 2

1) Prayer (no edit)
     GV

2) Wonderful
     I Ran

3) Elements
    (VegaTables)
    (Holidays)
    (Wind Chimes)
    (O Learys Cow with Friday Night)

4) Child Is Father
     Surfs Up



« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 02:24:06 PM by Hickory Violet Part IV » Logged
The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2017, 12:38:29 PM »

Accidental-post.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 12:40:19 PM by The Old Master Painter » Logged
The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2017, 12:41:54 PM »

Prayer into Vibes, just as was originally intended. Sonically, harmonically, it just works.

I always thought that Prayer was superceded as 'intro to the album' later, when Brian decided to open the album with H&V instead.  He then recorded You're Welcome as the new intro.

So Prayer could have opened side 2.

Not sure about your I Ran folowing GV. I have it on good authority (from Darian), that the Wonderful / I Ran edit, and Barnyard / Old Master Painter edit are vintage ideas. He said Brian just slotted those bits together without a thought.

Other possible vintage edits are Bridge To Indians into Worms.

Regarding banding, I think there would have been some, but there woukd have also been some long sequences containing several songs / sections.. In my Smile questions thread the other day, I was chasing down that VDP quote about the album being a traditional 12 track album with banding.

Turns out it was something supposedly said to a certain now banned member who has been known to fabricate stuff when there was an agenda to be pushed.



It’s interesting that Darian has clarified that “Wonderful” into “I Ran” was a vintage-idea in 1966. That raises quite a few possibilities, however, I think that “I Ran” was eventually scrapped from the project, like “Holidays.”
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 12:45:50 PM by The Old Master Painter » Logged
MikestheGreatest!!
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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2017, 02:12:07 PM »

Stop, stop, stop it with all this sequencing nonsense, nobody cares....
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Bicyclerider
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2017, 02:19:36 PM »

At least two people care.
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Hickory Violet Part IV
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2017, 02:28:00 PM »

Stop, stop, stop it with all this sequencing nonsense, nobody cares....

Are you having a moment of  sincerity and self honesty?  Smiley
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The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2017, 02:47:51 PM »

Stop, stop, stop it with all this sequencing nonsense, nobody cares....
Thanks for the constructive-criticism. You do realize this is a Beach Boys forum; and people could talk about nearly everything related to The Beach Boys, especially Beach Boys’ music, and that’s what we are doing.
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2017, 05:27:12 PM »

I think, my super idealistic "hey Brian finish it this way u prick" Smile sequence would be something along the lines of:

(Prayer)
Good Vibrations
Heroes and Villains (4 and a halfish minutes, no chorus or Part 2 chant bullshittery, somewhere between the Cantina and Smiley version with the CWR/Sunny Down Snuff sections and all the verse lyrics and fade remake)
Do You Like Worms
I'm in Great Shape (as an actual developed song and not just something cobbled from the parts we have)
My Only Sunshine
Cabin Essence

Wonderful (with an a capella tag)
Vega-Tables (basically what they ended up putting together for the Smile Sessions)
Wind Chimes
The Elements (some sort of mythical medley of Fire and Cool Cool Water but with the Dada backing track, or maybe including Friday Night as earth and Whispering Winds as air but no more than 4-5 mins)
Child is Father of the Man (less conventional structure and using more of the first session outtakes!!)
Surf's Up
(You're Welcome)

I honestly think Prayer into GV is the definitive way to open Smile. Brian probably would've changed his mind sometime around late '66/early '67, but that to me's a perfect opener that really sets it up feeling like a "teenage symphony to god" and doesn't feel out of place in the sequence. Having GV in the middle kinda cuts up the Smile experience somewhat. Then, H&V takes you back to the past and opens up what the album's really about. Wonderful fits the God Only Knows/Please Let Me Wonder sort of template for a side two opener, as well as being side opener material according to BWPS, and being the projected b-side to the Vega-Tables single. I like how this keeps the 'important' sandbox songs/singles at the starts and ends of each side. All banded, apart from maybe Prayer into GV. In an ideal world Holidays and I Ran would end up on there too with Van Dyke lyrics and full vocal arrangements.


Or, alternatively:

(You're Welcome)
Heroes and Villains
Do You Like Worms
My Only Sunshine (IIGS/Barnyard/OMP/YAMS/Fade)
Cabin Essence
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (with Workshop fade)
Vega-Tables

Good Vibrations
Wind Chimes
Wonderful
I Ran
Child is Father of the Man
Surf's Up
(Prayer)

That one's a more rounded out 'Americana/Life' two movement thing that relies less on hypothetical Elements/IIGS what-ifs but it also feels a bit more disjointed with so much separation in tone between the two sides. And no Dada-less Smile mix feels complete. Obvs you'd want him to finish up the cycle of life quadrilogy with the same segues as BWPS.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 05:40:56 PM by wjcrerar » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2017, 05:39:05 PM »

Regarding banding, I think there would have been some, but there woukd have also been some long sequences containing several songs / sections.. In my Smile questions thread the other day, I was chasing down that VDP quote about the album being a traditional 12 track album with banding.

Turns out it was something supposedly said to a certain now banned member who has been known to fabricate stuff when there was an agenda to be pushed.


I know AGD has a dodgy history, but I believe him on this. The proof's there in the original sessions. Almost every song during the Smile era had some sort of fadeout recorded for it - there are a handful of exceptions, some that can be explained like Fire which was supposedly part of a larger track or Wonderful which potentially would've gotten a tag if it wasn't scrapped and rerecorded (version 2 had one) - but I just don't think an album with this many fades was ever meant to be all or even partially linked together BWPS or Song Cycle style. Super abrupt intros with the vocals starting right away and elaborate fadeouts were like, two of Brian's big consistent songwriting things for Smile and neither would permit segues. They even had to loop instrumental bars on TSS to make the start of Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables work.

Brian never did anything like it on a Beach Boys album before or after, and we probably wouldn't be thinking about Smile in terms of crossfades or link tracks at all if not for Domenic Priore's misguided theories based on limited bootleg information that subsequently fed into Darian influencing BWPS (helps that it fit a live performance like a glove). In 1966/1967, Brian wasn't doing fragments, he was doing songs.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 05:51:00 PM by wjcrerar » Logged
Hickory Violet Part IV
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2017, 10:41:27 PM »

Regarding banding, I think there would have been some, but there woukd have also been some long sequences containing several songs / sections.. In my Smile questions thread the other day, I was chasing down that VDP quote about the album being a traditional 12 track album with banding.

Turns out it was something supposedly said to a certain now banned member who has been known to fabricate stuff when there was an agenda to be pushed.


I know AGD has a dodgy history, but I believe him on this. The proof's there in the original sessions. Almost every song during the Smile era had some sort of fadeout recorded for it - there are a handful of exceptions, some that can be explained like Fire which was supposedly part of a larger track or Wonderful which potentially would've gotten a tag if it wasn't scrapped and rerecorded (version 2 had one) - but I just don't think an album with this many fades was ever meant to be all or even partially linked together BWPS or Song Cycle style. Super abrupt intros with the vocals starting right away and elaborate fadeouts were like, two of Brian's big consistent songwriting things for Smile and neither would permit segues. They even had to loop instrumental bars on TSS to make the start of Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables work.

Brian never did anything like it on a Beach Boys album before or after, and we probably wouldn't be thinking about Smile in terms of crossfades or link tracks at all if not for Domenic Priore's misguided theories based on limited bootleg information that subsequently fed into Darian influencing BWPS (helps that it fit a live performance like a glove). In 1966/1967, Brian wasn't doing fragments, he was doing songs.

Yes, and if you look at my track list you'll see it reflects the fades. Lets take the Synphony description at face value. I think there woukd have been a series of movements.

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Very Extremely Dan
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« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 11:39:27 AM »

I came up with this sequence after hearing Brian's "Smog" recording when he states his intention for SMiLE: 

"The way we can help is to make a record, and more or less present the facts in some interesting manner, not boring but in some way that people can retain these facts, and to sort of set up in their minds a goal to get rid of this sh*t!" 

With that in mind i found SMiLE to come together easily as a textbook American fable about the environment and the wave of change being called for by Brian and Van (and soon many others) in 1967.  Would love to know people's thoughts!

Prayer
Good Vibrations (I HEAR the sound of a gentle WORD)
Heroes and VIllains Pt.1 (OFTEN WISE.......you ARE my sunshine)
Wonderful
Do You Like Worms
I'm In Great Shape
Cabin Essence
Vega-Tables

Holidays
Wind Chimes
Mrs. O'leary's Cow
Love to Say Dada
Child is Father of the Man
The Old Master Painter (you WERE my sunshine)
Heroes and Villains Pt.2 (ARE WISE)
Surf's Up (I HEARD the WORD)
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« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2017, 01:15:20 PM »

SIDE A
1. Heroes and Villains
2. Mrs O'Leary's Cow
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Good Vibrations
5. Cabin Essence
6. Do You Like Worms
7. Look

SIDE B
8. the Fade from Vege-Tables
9.  Sloop John B
10.  Do You Like Worms
11.  all of the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg
12.  Wonderful (Rock Me Henry version)
13.  the verses of Cabin Essence repeated three times
14.  Old Master Painter
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 01:16:28 PM by soniclovenoize » Logged

wjcrerar
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« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2017, 03:35:46 PM »

I came up with this sequence after hearing Brian's "Smog" recording when he states his intention for SMiLE: 

"The way we can help is to make a record, and more or less present the facts in some interesting manner, not boring but in some way that people can retain these facts, and to sort of set up in their minds a goal to get rid of this sh*t!" 

With that in mind i found SMiLE to come together easily as a textbook American fable about the environment and the wave of change being called for by Brian and Van (and soon many others) in 1967.  Would love to know people's thoughts!

Prayer
Good Vibrations (I HEAR the sound of a gentle WORD)
Heroes and VIllains Pt.1 (OFTEN WISE.......you ARE my sunshine)
Wonderful
Do You Like Worms
I'm In Great Shape
Cabin Essence
Vega-Tables

Holidays
Wind Chimes
Mrs. O'leary's Cow
Love to Say Dada
Child is Father of the Man
The Old Master Painter (you WERE my sunshine)
Heroes and Villains Pt.2 (ARE WISE)
Surf's Up (I HEARD the WORD)

I love this one! To be honest I don't think Heroes and Villains Part Two was ever an actual continuation of the song and it was mainly just the chants for a b-side exclusive...but I wish Brian did that. The lyric change to "wise" on the Children Were Raised verse for Smiley makes the idea seem almost too obvious. Someone's gotta go back in time and get Van Dyke to write some more lyrics.
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2017, 03:39:56 PM »

SIDE A
1. Heroes and Villains
2. Mrs O'Leary's Cow
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Good Vibrations
5. Cabin Essence
6. Do You Like Worms
7. Look

SIDE B
8. the Fade from Vege-Tables
9.  Sloop John B
10.  Do You Like Worms
11.  all of the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg
12.  Wonderful (Rock Me Henry version)
13.  the verses of Cabin Essence repeated three times
14.  Old Master Painter

excuse me this is missing 'Can't Wait Too Long (Get the Boot fragment)' and the "we're sure to sell a million units in January" Smile promo within the actual album itself
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Very Extremely Dan
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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 06:05:20 PM »

I agree that  the change from "often wise" to simply "wise" is obvious but that was Brian's intent for SMiLE.  If you listened and followed the story told between H&V pt.1 and H&V pt.2 you'd become wise.  You'd be enlightened by Brian's vision of the past.  And like many fables the moral of the story is stated explicitly at the end.  Surf's Up, SMiLE summed up in one song.  One man's enlightenment caused by visions of the past.

Here's the Wiki definition of a fable:  "Fable is a literary genre: a succinct fictional story, in prose or verse, that features animals, legendary creatures, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature that are anthropomorphized (given human qualities, such as the ability to speak human language) and that illustrates or leads to a particular moral lesson (a "moral"), which may at the end be added explicitly as a pithy maxim."

Of course I agree that there will never be a FINAL  ABSOLUTE version of SMiLE circa 1967, but if you are looking for a simple/logical way to put the songs together in a manner that will make sense to a neophyte this sequence works wonders.  I get so tired of reading non-believers saying Brian lost the plot and it's a bunch of half finished acid alliteration.  I think this sequence gives the lie to that untruth.  It works extremely well sequenced as a simple US history/literature/music class taught with a lot of love and mercy.
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The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2017, 06:15:48 PM »

SIDE A
1. Heroes and Villains
2. Mrs O'Leary's Cow
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Good Vibrations
5. Cabin Essence
6. Do You Like Worms
7. Look

SIDE B
8. the Fade from Vege-Tables
9.  Sloop John B
10.  Do You Like Worms
11.  all of the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg
12.  Wonderful (Rock Me Henry version)
13.  the verses of Cabin Essence repeated three times
14.  Old Master Painter

You forgot “God Only Knows,” obviously the most pivotal Beach Boys SMiLE-era track
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The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2017, 06:16:39 PM »

I agree that  the change from "often wise" to simply "wise" is obvious but that was Brian's intent for SMiLE.  If you listened and followed the story told between H&V pt.1 and H&V pt.2 you'd become wise.  You'd be enlightened by Brian's vision of the past.  And like many fables the moral of the story is stated explicitly at the end.  Surf's Up, SMiLE summed up in one song.  One man's enlightenment caused by visions of the past.

Here's the Wiki definition of a fable:  "Fable is a literary genre: a succinct fictional story, in prose or verse, that features animals, legendary creatures, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature that are anthropomorphized (given human qualities, such as the ability to speak human language) and that illustrates or leads to a particular moral lesson (a "moral"), which may at the end be added explicitly as a pithy maxim."

Of course I agree that there will never be a FINAL  ABSOLUTE version of SMiLE circa 1967, but if you are looking for a simple/logical way to put the songs together in a manner that will make sense to a neophyte this sequence works wonders.  I get so tired of reading non-believers saying Brian lost the plot and it's a bunch of half finished acid alliteration.  I think this sequence gives the lie to that untruth.  It works extremely well sequenced as a simple US history/literature/music class taught with a lot of love and mercy.

One of your initial track-lists inspired me to make this thread.
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The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2017, 06:21:29 PM »

Can we all agree that there is a possibility that “Our Prayer” was once meant to precede “Good Vibrations” during the early development of the project? After all, “Good Vibrations” is plastered all over the SMiLE album-sleeve.
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Very Extremely Dan
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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2017, 06:44:16 PM »

Can we all agree that there is a possibility that “Our Prayer” was once meant to precede “Good Vibrations” during the early development of the project? After all, “Good Vibrations” is plastered all over the SMiLE album-sleeve.

I agree!  If I'm not mistaken "Good Vibrations" was the first song whose writing was finished for SMiLE.....the message and imagery representing her (Mother Nature/Eve/Lady Liberty/Pocahontas/Flower Girl/etc.) can be found throughout the following album.  ."I love the colorful clothes she wears/and the way the SUNSHINE plays upon her HAIR/I hear the sound of a gentle WORD/on the WIND that lifts her perfume through the AIR".   Not to mention the album title in verse 2 "Softly SMiLE/I know she must be kind"

Brian was deeply concerned about Mother Earth and wanted to "keep those lovin' good vibrations happening with her"..........

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wjcrerar
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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2017, 06:50:50 PM »

I agree that  the change from "often wise" to simply "wise" is obvious but that was Brian's intent for SMiLE.  If you listened and followed the story told between H&V pt.1 and H&V pt.2 you'd become wise.  You'd be enlightened by Brian's vision of the past.  And like many fables the moral of the story is stated explicitly at the end.  Surf's Up, SMiLE summed up in one song.  One man's enlightenment caused by visions of the past.

Here's the Wiki definition of a fable:  "Fable is a literary genre: a succinct fictional story, in prose or verse, that features animals, legendary creatures, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature that are anthropomorphized (given human qualities, such as the ability to speak human language) and that illustrates or leads to a particular moral lesson (a "moral"), which may at the end be added explicitly as a pithy maxim."

Of course I agree that there will never be a FINAL  ABSOLUTE version of SMiLE circa 1967, but if you are looking for a simple/logical way to put the songs together in a manner that will make sense to a neophyte this sequence works wonders.  I get so tired of reading non-believers saying Brian lost the plot and it's a bunch of half finished acid alliteration.  I think this sequence gives the lie to that untruth.  It works extremely well sequenced as a simple US history/literature/music class taught with a lot of love and mercy.

I like this a lot

H&V as a true actual two parter was probably never remotely close to being a thing and the lyrics were just something Brian changed for the final version so the melody could let that section resolve into a different chord but I like it a lot

Only things I'd suggest would be shuffling around some songs on side 1 but...that stuff's all down to personal preference. And maybe dumping Holidays cos there's already a lot on side two. I toyed with the idea of My Only Sunshine/The Old Master Painter/whatever you wanna call it between CiFotM and Surf's Up a while ago but musically/thematically it really does make a lot of sense - losing faith in god before spiritual enlightenment. Your interpretation of Smile's my favourite I've read in a long time.
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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2017, 06:55:38 PM »

Can we all agree that there is a possibility that “Our Prayer” was once meant to precede “Good Vibrations” during the early development of the project? After all, “Good Vibrations” is plastered all over the SMiLE album-sleeve.

Yeah, I'm 100% converted to that. I think Prayer may have been moved to the closer after Surf's Up by as soon as even the October dinner party, but I'm totally on board with Prayer > GV being the original intended start of the album that got derailed when Heroes and Villains became the all-important new single. Everything out there points to it.
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« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2017, 07:20:40 PM »

1. Prayer / Do You Like Worms?
2. Cabin Essence
3. Heroes and Villains
4. Vega-Tables
5. I'm in Great Shape (Barnyard)
6. The Old Master Painter

1. Good Vibrations
2. Wonderful
3. Child is Father of the Man
4. Wind Chimes
5. The Elements
6. Surf's Up
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Very Extremely Dan
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« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2017, 07:47:36 PM »

Thanks a lot!

Maybe it was a strictly harmonic decision to change "often wise" to "wise" but the effect of each is so different they seem purpose written.  The former is glaringly unresolved and the latter is perfectly resolved. 

After reading Brian's "Smog" explanation for SMiLE I got it in my head that it was supposed to be a very simple/not hard to grasp presentation of the facts...so what would be obvious/logical?

I put dada/child/father/old master together based on simple chronology but found that there was a deeper meaning created by doing so. 

Love to Say Dada.  Who says that?  A baby.  What is water?  The essential element for life.  What would come next after a baby?  A child which becomes a man.  And learning about the W.Wordsworth poem and it's celebration of nature it made sense following The Elements.   And what would follow a baby/child/man.....the old master painter....and yet the lyrics celebrating God and nature AREN'T sung.  He DIDN"T present his masterpiece and SMiLE down from heaven on that WONDERFUL day.  Instead he sang "You we're my sunshine".  Are you getting Brian's message? 

Isn't there a quote somewhere where Brian says that in the 66/67 version of SMiLE  OMP was the grand finale?
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