The Smiley Smile Message Board

 Yes, this thread will become very hypothetical, perhaps much to the dismay of any avid-researcher, but through such hypotheticals, the goal is to be creative with the resources and information at one’s disposal in order to create a track-sequence for the proposed Smile project; if it were ever realized as a compilation of incomplete sessions considerate of the original intent behind the project, or as a completed-product In 1966/7.
 It’s late 1966, you’re at a press-party and have the opportunity to speak to Brian Wilson. You’re aware that any decision you make will greatly impact the course of the future. You only have one comment or advice to give; what would you tell Brian? To continue further; imagine you are at the helm of Brian’s social-circles, and have the opportunity to contribute your ideas to the new Beach Boys’ album; Smile. What ideas would you contribute to Smile? What would you change about the music, of anything?
And now to perhaps the reason why I started this thread; what track-sequence would you offer Brian for Smile in late-1966; just as he is completing the album for release on Christmas, 1966?

I thought I’d offer my own track-sequence as a way to start this thread rolling. Let’s get to it, shall we?

Our Prayer- edited version with 10 seconds omitted, based on a 1966 edit
1. Good Vibrations (inc. I Ran)
2. Cabin Essence
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Wind Chimes (inc. Holidays)
5. Wonderful

6. Heroes and Villains
7. The Old Master Painter
8. The Elements (inc. My Vega-Tables)
9. Child is The Father of The Man
10. Surf’s Up (inc. Our Prayer excerpt [the edited 10 seconds appear here])

Prayer into Vibes, just as was originally intended. Sonically, harmonically, it just works.

I always thought that Prayer was superceded as 'intro to the album' later, when Brian decided to open the album with H&V instead.  He then recorded You're Welcome as the new intro.

So Prayer could have opened side 2.

Not sure about your I Ran folowing GV. I have it on good authority (from Darian), that the Wonderful / I Ran edit, and Barnyard / Old Master Painter edit are vintage ideas. He said Brian just slotted those bits together without a thought.

Other possible vintage edits are Bridge To Indians into Worms.

Regarding banding, I think there would have been some, but there woukd have also been some long sequences containing several songs / sections.. In my Smile questions thread the other day, I was chasing down that VDP quote about the album being a traditional 12 track album with banding.

Turns out it was something supposedly said to a certain now banned member who has been known to fabricate stuff when there was an agenda to be pushed.

So I would offer Brian this.....

Numbers to indicate banding

Side 1

1) You're Welcome
     Heroes and Villians part I (following Durrie Parks acetate description into..)
     I'm In Great Shape (followed by 3 score and 5 into.....)
     Barnyard
     Old Master Painter
     Sunsine

 2) H&V part II
        (starting with piano Bicycle Rider theme, various part II sections plus Cantina. Ends wiith Prelude to fade.
          Solo trombone into Bridge To Indians)
      Do you Like Worms

3) Cabinessence

Side 2

1) Prayer (no edit)
     GV

2) Wonderful
     I Ran

3) Elements
    (VegaTables)
    (Holidays)
    (Wind Chimes)
    (O Learys Cow with Friday Night)

4) Child Is Father
     Surfs Up

Accidental-post.

It’s interesting that Darian has clarified that “Wonderful” into “I Ran” was a vintage-idea in 1966. That raises quite a few possibilities, however, I think that “I Ran” was eventually scrapped from the project, like “Holidays.”

Stop, stop, stop it with all this sequencing nonsense, nobody cares....

At least two people care.

Are you having a moment of  sincerity and self honesty?  :)

Thanks for the constructive-criticism. You do realize this is a Beach Boys forum; and people could talk about nearly everything related to The Beach Boys, especially Beach Boys’ music, and that’s what we are doing.

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Yes, and if you look at my track list you'll see it reflects the fades. Lets take the Synphony description at face value. I think there woukd have been a series of movements.

I came up with this sequence after hearing Brian's "Smog" recording when he states his intention for SMiLE: 

"The way we can help is to make a record, and more or less present the facts in some interesting manner, not boring but in some way that people can retain these facts, and to sort of set up in their minds a goal to get rid of this sh*t!" 

With that in mind i found SMiLE to come together easily as a textbook American fable about the environment and the wave of change being called for by Brian and Van (and soon many others) in 1967.  Would love to know people's thoughts!

Prayer
Good Vibrations (I HEAR the sound of a gentle WORD)
Heroes and VIllains Pt.1 (OFTEN WISE.......you ARE my sunshine)
Wonderful
Do You Like Worms
I'm In Great Shape
Cabin Essence
Vega-Tables

Holidays
Wind Chimes
Mrs. O'leary's Cow
Love to Say Dada
Child is Father of the Man
The Old Master Painter (you WERE my sunshine)
Heroes and Villains Pt.2 (ARE WISE)
Surf's Up (I HEARD the WORD)

SIDE A
1. Heroes and Villains
2. Mrs O'Leary's Cow
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Good Vibrations
5. Cabin Essence
6. Do You Like Worms
7. Look

SIDE B
8. the Fade from Vege-Tables
9.  Sloop John B
10.  Do You Like Worms
11.  all of the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg
12.  Wonderful (Rock Me Henry version)
13.  the verses of Cabin Essence repeated three times
14.  Old Master Painter

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I agree that  the change from "often wise" to simply "wise" is obvious but that was Brian's intent for SMiLE.  If you listened and followed the story told between H&V pt.1 and H&V pt.2 you'd become wise.  You'd be enlightened by Brian's vision of the past.  And like many fables the moral of the story is stated explicitly at the end.  Surf's Up, SMiLE summed up in one song.  One man's enlightenment caused by visions of the past.

Here's the Wiki definition of a fable:  "Fable is a literary genre: a succinct fictional story, in prose or verse, that features animals, legendary creatures, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature that are anthropomorphized (given human qualities, such as the ability to speak human language) and that illustrates or leads to a particular moral lesson (a "moral"), which may at the end be added explicitly as a pithy maxim."

Of course I agree that there will never be a FINAL  ABSOLUTE version of SMiLE circa 1967, but if you are looking for a simple/logical way to put the songs together in a manner that will make sense to a neophyte this sequence works wonders.  I get so tired of reading non-believers saying Brian lost the plot and it's a bunch of half finished acid alliteration.  I think this sequence gives the lie to that untruth.  It works extremely well sequenced as a simple US history/literature/music class taught with a lot of love and mercy.

You forgot “God Only Knows,” obviously the most pivotal Beach Boys SMiLE-era track

One of your initial track-lists inspired me to make this thread.

Can we all agree that there is a possibility that “Our Prayer” was once meant to precede “Good Vibrations” during the early development of the project? After all, “Good Vibrations” is plastered all over the SMiLE album-sleeve.

I agree!  If I'm not mistaken "Good Vibrations" was the first song whose writing was finished for SMiLE.....the message and imagery representing her (Mother Nature/Eve/Lady Liberty/Pocahontas/Flower Girl/etc.) can be found throughout the following album.  ."I love the colorful clothes she wears/and the way the SUNSHINE plays upon her HAIR/I hear the sound of a gentle WORD/on the WIND that lifts her perfume through the AIR".   Not to mention the album title in verse 2 "Softly SMiLE/I know she must be kind"

Brian was deeply concerned about Mother Earth and wanted to "keep those lovin' good vibrations happening with her"..........

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1. Prayer / Do You Like Worms?
2. Cabin Essence
3. Heroes and Villains
4. Vega-Tables
5. I'm in Great Shape (Barnyard)
6. The Old Master Painter

1. Good Vibrations
2. Wonderful
3. Child is Father of the Man
4. Wind Chimes
5. The Elements
6. Surf's Up

Thanks a lot!

Maybe it was a strictly harmonic decision to change "often wise" to "wise" but the effect of each is so different they seem purpose written.  The former is glaringly unresolved and the latter is perfectly resolved. 

After reading Brian's "Smog" explanation for SMiLE I got it in my head that it was supposed to be a very simple/not hard to grasp presentation of the facts...so what would be obvious/logical?

I put dada/child/father/old master together based on simple chronology but found that there was a deeper meaning created by doing so. 

Love to Say Dada.  Who says that?  A baby.  What is water?  The essential element for life.  What would come next after a baby?  A child which becomes a man.  And learning about the W.Wordsworth poem and it's celebration of nature it made sense following The Elements.   And what would follow a baby/child/man.....the old master painter....and yet the lyrics celebrating God and nature AREN'T sung.  He DIDN"T present his masterpiece and SMiLE down from heaven on that WONDERFUL day.  Instead he sang "You we're my sunshine".  Are you getting Brian's message? 

Isn't there a quote somewhere where Brian says that in the 66/67 version of SMiLE  OMP was the grand finale?

I need to revisit the boxset for the dates but I'm remembering that they cut "Prayer" twice.  One was in C# and the second version was in D#.  (Though maybe the D# version was just the C# version sped up a whole tone a'la "Caroline, No"?!?!?!)  Not to get too muso but the C# version would "set up" H&V and the D# version would "set up" Good Vibrations or "Gee".....

Whichever version was cut second would suggest which song it was intended to pre-ceed....though D# could mean either....shoot!

 

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Michael Vosse claimed that “Do You Like Worms” and “Cabin Essence” were once closely related, and omitted lines from “Do You Like Worms” seem to imply this (I’m going to paraphrase these lines): “The East or West Indies, we always got them confused.” I feel this might have been some form of commentary on the struggle of the Eastern migrant-workers on the song “Cabin Essence” and about the “Bicycle Rider”’s affect on the “...Church of the American Indian.” I recall Vosse elaborating further; stipulating that the “Bicycle Rider” and “Iron Horse”-sections once existed as a single-piece. Of course; this must have been an early-idea that was ditched in favour of having the two songs as being separate; hence why there isn’t surviving recordings or recollection of such recordings of the “East or West Indies” line. If you study the Durre Parks acetates; there is an acetate that goes from “Who Ran The Iron Horse?,” to “Bicycle Rider,” to the verse of “Heroes and Villains.” My conclusions that these pieces were related more than previously thought could be heavily deviated from truth, but I’m basing such conclusions from factual-information (the Vosse piece, lyric-drafts, acetate-edits). By the way, how was a connect between “Do You Like Worms” to “Holidays” even established?

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Hi Brian.
I come from the future, listen to this, just one time.
Then i will disappear :)

https://youtu.be/nwCdeF0RzSI

Great work!

That transition into Worms is awesome! Great work!!

I LOVE the outro, great work man!

Thanks!! :)

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Here's my new and improved sequence.
Side One-
1.   Good Vibrations
2.   Cabin Essence
3.   Do You Like Worms
4.   Heroes and Villains
5.   The Elements
6.   I’m In Great Shape
7.   Vega-Tables
Side Two-
8.   Holidays
9.   Wind Chimes
10.   Wonderful
11.   I Ran
12.   Child is The Father of The Man
13.   Surf’s Up
This track sequence or template intends to present the material recorded for the Beach Boys’ tentative “Smile” project from mid to late 1966 as a two-movement suite that was hinted by the project’s leader Brian Wilson in a 2004 interview.
This track sequence considers musical flow from one track to the next, collaborator Van Dyke Parks’ lyrics, artist Frank Holmes’ period artwork intended for the project, vintage acetate discs and tapes that consisted of arrangements of fragments meant to join as a song or tentative track compilations, Michael Vosse’s articles about “Smile” from 1966-67, some of The Beach Boys’ later musical output from 1967 and later that drew inspiration or borrowed from the discarded project (emphasis on “Smiley Smile”), Jules Siegel’s 1967 article written about “Smile,” Michael Vosse’s recollections about the project from a 1968 interview, Darian Sahanaja’s recollections about Brian Wilson’s original ideas for the project when working with Wilson in 2004, and Van Dyke Parks’ recollections about the project from interviews.
A note about “Heroes and Villains”: opens with the section: “Introduction,” commonly referred to as: “Chimes.” After the first two verses; segues to the section: “I’m In Great Shape…” followed by sections: “My Children Were Raised…” “At Three Score & Five…” respectively. Acapella barbershop vocals follow to the section: “Barnyard,” segueing to and finally ending on the section: “The Old Master Painter.”

I've had to listen to it twice to process it... It's simply unbelievable. I could vividly imagine Paul McCartney trembling uncontrollably due to the sheer amazement of something like this being released in 1967.

Simply excellent. Congrats!

The theory of this being a "grand fanale" of sorts comes from two places afaik...
1) The Feb '67 H&V single mix had the OMP tag at the end
2) The handwritten SMiLE tracking list had OMP at the end in parenthesis

Our Prayer
Heroes and Villains
Heroes and Villains Part 2
I'm In Great Shape
Barnyard
He Gives Speeches
Do You Like Worms?
Tones
Three Blind Mice
The Old Master Painter-You Were My Sunshine
Cabinessence
Bicycle Rider
Wonderful
Look
Teeter-Totter Love
My Little Red Book
I Don't Know
Child Is The Father Of The Man
Holidays
With Me Tonight
Indian Wisdom
Good Vibrations
Vega-Tables
Wind Chimes
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
I Wanna Be Around-Workshop
Cool Cool Water-I Love To Say Da Da
Surf's Up
You're Welcome

That's pretty lengthy, although at the same time very thorough and covers a wide range of music that was recorded during or after the sessions for the album into an enjoyable list.

Moine, just for yuks:

SMiLe

1. (Prayer/Gee) HEROES AND VILLAINS
2. DO YOU LIKE WORMS
3. I'M IN GREAT SHAPE
(The Barnyard Suite: I'm In Great Shape/Barnyard/Three Blind Mice/Whistle In)
4. THE OLD MASTER PAINTER
5. CABIN ESSENCE
6. WONDERFUL

7. (Look) CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN
8. SURF'S UP
9. VEGA-TABLES
10. (Holidays) WIND CHIMES
11. THE ELEMENTS
(The Elements Suite: Air; Country Air/Fire; Mrs O'Leary's Cow/Earth; I Wanna Be Around-Workshop/Water; I Love To Say Da Da)
12. GOOD VIBRATIONS

I love how you used “Country Air” as a part of “The Elements.”

I feel confident in this template, but am wondering where to place four other songs in the blank space provided:

1. Good Vibrations
2. —
3. —
4. Do You Like Worms
5. Heroes and Villains
6. The Old Master Painter

7. The Elements
8. I’m In Great Shape
9. Vega-Tables
10. —
11. —
12. Surf’s Up

The four remaining tracks are “Wonderful,” “Child is The Father of The Man,” “Cabin Essence,” and “Wind Chimes.”

Me personally, I'd put "Wind Chimes" after "Good Vibrations", with "Cabin-Essence" following afterwards. As for Side Two, I'd go with Wonderful-Child is Father of the Man-Surf's Up, just to keep in spirit with that "Cycle of Life" theme!

I'm sure I've talked about my version of Smile here before, but since I'm writing this post while bored out of my mind in my Listening to Music class, I guess I'll just be posting it again!

SIDE A:
1. Our Prayer/Gee
2. Heroes and Villains
3. Do You Like Worms?
4. Wonderful
5. I'm in Great Shape/Barnyard/My Only Sunshine
6. Cabin-Essence
SIDE B:
1. Good Vibrations
2. Vega-Tables
3. Wind Chimes
4. Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
5. Child is Father of the Man
6. Surf's Up
7. You're Welcome (Hidden track)

My current SMiLE sequence is kind of a "what if Jan '67" list, factoring in the new importance of the Heroes And Villains single. Even though it was unlikely to have an "Americana" side and an "Elementals" side it wasn't unheard of at the time for albums to have themed sides so I've stuck with that. Granted, I'm using elements from post SMiLE, but I once heard a mix years ago (now gone as it was deleted from YouTube) that exclusively used pre '67 material and, although fascinating, I found it to be quite bare-bones. Still working on the finishing touches but right now it looks something like this:

Side 1: Americana

Our Prayer (Unlisted)

1. Heroes And Villains
2. Do You Like Worms?
3. Wonderful
4. Child Is Father Of The Man
5. The Old Master Painter / My Only Sunshine
6. Cabin Essence

Side 2: The Elementals

1. Good Vibrations
2. I'm In Great Shape
3. Vega-Tables
4. The Elements
a). Fire (Mrs. O'Leary's Cow)
b). Earth (I Wanna Be Around / Workshop)
c). Water (WH Water Chant, Dec '66 Dada piano pieces)
d). Air (Smog, Breathing Sounds, Wind Chimes V2 Tag)
5. Wind Chimes
6. Surf's Up

You're Welcome (Unlisted)

There we go; 2 sides, 12 songs, most having fadeouts. I'll report back once I'm done with a track-by-track breakdown.

I like your track sequence, especially the first side.

I would like to use this opportunity to explain some 'Smile' observations:

"The Old Master Painter" was implied by Michael Vosse in 1968 to have once been connected to "The Woodshed Song," (thematically or musically; that is up for debate). This detail branched from a discussion about "Heroes and Villains."

I am not sure if this counts, but Frank Holmes' recent artwork for "Wonderful" (completed in the 2000s) includes a cabin among other references to the lyrics of "Wonderful," possibly implying a thematic connection between the songs "Cabin Essence" and "Wonderful."

"Cabin Essence" and "Do You Like Worms" have long been correlated, by Michael Vosse, by Jules Siegel, by Tom Nolan. There even exist edits found on acetate discs (refer to the Durrie Parks acetate disc collection) that combine the two songs, and also the intro to "Heroes and Villains." We know that "Do You Like Worms" and "Heroes and Villains" were connected (January '67: "Bridge to The Indians," "Bicycle Rider vocal overdubs." February '67: "Heroes and Villains: Chorus." June '67: "Heroes and Villains: Chorus (vocals overdubs, incorporating lyrics of "Do You Like Worms.))

I am not sure if the '66 piano arrangement of "Da-Da" would have likely been the 'water' section to the planned 'elements suite' in 1966. If anything, it fits Brian Wilson's recollections of the 'air' section of the 'elements suite' in 1978. Either way, who knows definitively? Not even Wilson does (in present day).

Of course, there are Carol Kaye's remarks during a recording session for 'The Woodshed Song' possibly suggesting that the song was meant to follow "the fire." Those comments might have also been about how the sessions for "The Elements - Part One (Fire)" preceded the sessions for "The Woodshed Song."

"Holidays" *might* (I repeat, MIGHT) have been an earlier reworking of "Da-Da." Sounds strange, right? Some might have stopped reading this already. I suggest listening to the chord progression of the choruses of "Holidays," and then the chord progression of "Da-Da."

"Child is The Father of The Man" (the group vocal performance that was recorded with a sole piano accompaniment in April, '67) shares the same chord progression (and chords) with the few last seconds played by The Wrecking Crew after the tracking of "Love to Say Da-Da: Part Two."

The same chord progression (using the same chords) was being demonstrated and recorded on piano by Wilson during a post-'Smile' 1967 session for "Cool, Cool Water."

What does all this prove? Not much!

I think ALL THIS PROVES that SMiLE was to be an incredibly deep concept album that told a coherent story through repeated musical/conceptual/lyrical/visual symbolism.   

For example the classic archetype of "Boy meets Girl" in "Good Vibrations" is retold in "Heroes and Villains" and retold in "Wonderful" from the girl's perspective.  Who is this girl?  Mother Nature?  A Flower girl?  Eve?  Pocahontas?   Lady Liberty?  Brian's muse?  She's all of these things!  Who is this boy?  A western outlaw?  A Mayflower Pilgrim?  An Okie heading to California to pick vegetables?  The Old Paster Painter of the great American landscape?  He is all these things...and Brian too!   "Do You Like Worms" is Boy meets Girl retold as "Native American Garden of Eden meets Manifest Destiny".   Imagery and ideas,  particularly (en)light(enment) and air, appear and reappear through out Brian and Van's songs and Frank Holmes art.  It is all one!

To that end I agree that one can hear in those instances how Brian was exploring the musical connections between CIFOTM and Dada.  If Dada is the first word of a baby and represents water the source of all life, it makes sense to connect it with "Child is Father to the Man"  a song about the spiritually rejuvenating properties of nature.  Then, following the cycle of life from baby to child to man who's next?  The Old Master Painter who created this beautiful world.....only he doesn't sing his song.  He sings "you we're my sunshine"....and that's Brian's enlightening message:  That mother nature is in danger but we can change course and get back to the garden.  "Got to keep those good vibrations happening with her" !!!

Here's another theory.  Why did Brian use the Crow's "Gee" in "Heroes and Villains" and also try to interpolate Etta James' "The Wallflower (Roll with Me Henry)" into "Wonderful" ?  Boy meets Girl!

From Wikipedia:  "Gee", released in June 1953 by The Crows, is a song which has been credited as the first rock and roll hit by a rock and roll group.  And what is widely recognized as the first rock and roll hit by a female artist?  You guessed it Etta James'  "The Wallflower".

If you've read this far, THANKS!.....and please allow me to conduct a poll:

My organizing principal for SMiLE has always been that it is literally a chronological history of America told in flashback by the protagonist from Heroes and Villains:  from the Native American Garden of Eden meeting the Pilgrims, thru the Industrial Revolution and Great Western Migration up to the environmentally/spiritually broken war machine Brian and Van were surveying from the sandbox in '66 as Carl's Vietnam draft notice showed up in the mail.  Ahem....

So, the album begins with Prayer, then we meet our first protagonist in Heroes and Villains who quickly flashes back to tell us his story.  Now,  going strictly chronologically I've always put "Wonderful" next to begin in Native America (she belongs there left with her liberty).  Her beautiful final fleeting notes are then rudely crashed in upon by the first British Invasion at Plymouth Rock of "Do You Like Worms". 

But it's dawned on me that for the listener to recognize that the album is specifically about America it might be more immediately understood as such if  "Heroes and Villains" is followed by "Do You Like Worms".  The lyrics are more specifically about America than "Wonderful" and its variant of Brian's message "Heroes and villains just see what you've done to the church of the American Indian" is stated more explicitly.  Followed by "Wonderful" it's as if it sets the stage (from Plymouth Rock to Hawaii) for the story we are about to hear about a boy bumping into a girl......

Well, I can't decide.  They both work on paper, but if you were hearing the Beach Boys new album for the first time in the Spring of 1967 which sequence  do you think would make the America connection most explicit?--

Heroes and Villains Pt. 1/ Wonderful/ Do You Like Worms

or

Heroes and Villains Pt.1/Do You Like Worms/Wonderful

Thanks in advance!!!

I think I'm going to edit together a new SMiLE mix now. Haven't really done one in about 10 years, and that one was super crazy.

Man what a great post. I don’t think I’ve ever thought about putting Wonderful after H&V, but I’m gonna try it. Given that Wonderful has that jangly harpsichord feel that ‘You Still Believe In Me’ (and that song followed up the opener WIBN) i think such a song order would make sense in Smile too.

And perhaps since Smile is a collage of sorts, it would make sense that the story, to a first time listener, isn’t all too clear. They have to piece it together in a way that by the end makes perfect sense. So making Wonderful sandwich in between H&V and Worms would be my vote.

These last few posts here are great reading. Makes me miss the smile talk from 2011!

These posts, and this thread in general, revive an aspect of nostalgia that drew me deeply toward the music of The Beach Boys. I started frequenting this message board at the mere age of twelve, being fascinated by the music of 'Pet Sounds,' and the incomplete work of 'Smile.' I'm fifteen now, so the mystique surrounding the fabled 'Smile' project for me was a large part of growing up. I cannot hold a grudge against anyone or thing that contributed to what ultimately became 'Smiley Smile.' I have no basis to do so, but I surely regret the existence of 'Smiley Smile' in September 1967 over the 'Smile' album that was once being proudly advertised in January 1967, even if it means that The Beatles would have been so overwhelmed to the point of not even conceiving or completing the 'Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band' that we all know and love today. Even though 'Smiley Smile' is underrated in its own right (in my opinion), 'Smile,' as incomplete or fractured as it exists, still sounds complete due to its sometimes inadvertently skeletal nature, and, in my opinion, largely better than 'Smiley Smile.' Creating these hypothetical track sequences to document or retell the unfinished concept that was once conceived in 1966 through the music itself was (and sort of is) a ritual of mine that I partake in when approaching this work since the music; specifically the modular composition standpoint, lends itself to fans heavily forming new narratives or concepts primarily based on the music, that results in still maintaining the music's relevancy.

I think that’s the best thing about this album. It’s so open to revision and becoming involved yourself. What other album in history allows you to mash together your own mix with so much freedom and room for being completely unique?

And my favorite part is that Brian has since released what he considers the finished SMiLE album and it’s fantastic. But yet we’re also able to roll our own. People have even successfully mashed together vocals from BWPS with the vintage instrumentals....making it clear that nearly anything is possible when it comes to these tracks.

Anyways, glad to see Smile talk still alive and well here.