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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: The Old Master Painter on October 22, 2017, 11:39:45 AM



Title: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on October 22, 2017, 11:39:45 AM
 Yes, this thread will become very hypothetical, perhaps much to the dismay of any avid-researcher, but through such hypotheticals, the goal is to be creative with the resources and information at one’s disposal in order to create a track-sequence for the proposed Smile project; if it were ever realized as a compilation of incomplete sessions considerate of the original intent behind the project, or as a completed-product In 1966/7.
 It’s late 1966, you’re at a press-party and have the opportunity to speak to Brian Wilson. You’re aware that any decision you make will greatly impact the course of the future. You only have one comment or advice to give; what would you tell Brian? To continue further; imagine you are at the helm of Brian’s social-circles, and have the opportunity to contribute your ideas to the new Beach Boys’ album; Smile. What ideas would you contribute to Smile? What would you change about the music, of anything?
And now to perhaps the reason why I started this thread; what track-sequence would you offer Brian for Smile in late-1966; just as he is completing the album for release on Christmas, 1966?


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on October 22, 2017, 11:45:19 AM
I thought I’d offer my own track-sequence as a way to start this thread rolling. Let’s get to it, shall we?

Our Prayer- edited version with 10 seconds omitted, based on a 1966 edit
1. Good Vibrations (inc. I Ran)
2. Cabin Essence
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Wind Chimes (inc. Holidays)
5. Wonderful

6. Heroes and Villains
7. The Old Master Painter
8. The Elements (inc. My Vega-Tables)
9. Child is The Father of The Man
10. Surf’s Up (inc. Our Prayer excerpt [the edited 10 seconds appear here])


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on October 22, 2017, 12:31:28 PM
Prayer into Vibes, just as was originally intended. Sonically, harmonically, it just works.

I always thought that Prayer was superceded as 'intro to the album' later, when Brian decided to open the album with H&V instead.  He then recorded You're Welcome as the new intro.

So Prayer could have opened side 2.

Not sure about your I Ran folowing GV. I have it on good authority (from Darian), that the Wonderful / I Ran edit, and Barnyard / Old Master Painter edit are vintage ideas. He said Brian just slotted those bits together without a thought.

Other possible vintage edits are Bridge To Indians into Worms.

Regarding banding, I think there would have been some, but there woukd have also been some long sequences containing several songs / sections.. In my Smile questions thread the other day, I was chasing down that VDP quote about the album being a traditional 12 track album with banding.

Turns out it was something supposedly said to a certain now banned member who has been known to fabricate stuff when there was an agenda to be pushed.

So I would offer Brian this.....

Numbers to indicate banding

Side 1

1) You're Welcome
     Heroes and Villians part I (following Durrie Parks acetate description into..)
     I'm In Great Shape (followed by 3 score and 5 into.....)
     Barnyard
     Old Master Painter
     Sunsine

 2) H&V part II
        (starting with piano Bicycle Rider theme, various part II sections plus Cantina. Ends wiith Prelude to fade.
          Solo trombone into Bridge To Indians)
      Do you Like Worms

3) Cabinessence

Side 2

1) Prayer (no edit)
     GV

2) Wonderful
     I Ran

3) Elements
    (VegaTables)
    (Holidays)
    (Wind Chimes)
    (O Learys Cow with Friday Night)

4) Child Is Father
     Surfs Up





Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on October 22, 2017, 12:38:29 PM
Accidental-post.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on October 22, 2017, 12:41:54 PM
Prayer into Vibes, just as was originally intended. Sonically, harmonically, it just works.

I always thought that Prayer was superceded as 'intro to the album' later, when Brian decided to open the album with H&V instead.  He then recorded You're Welcome as the new intro.

So Prayer could have opened side 2.

Not sure about your I Ran folowing GV. I have it on good authority (from Darian), that the Wonderful / I Ran edit, and Barnyard / Old Master Painter edit are vintage ideas. He said Brian just slotted those bits together without a thought.

Other possible vintage edits are Bridge To Indians into Worms.

Regarding banding, I think there would have been some, but there woukd have also been some long sequences containing several songs / sections.. In my Smile questions thread the other day, I was chasing down that VDP quote about the album being a traditional 12 track album with banding.

Turns out it was something supposedly said to a certain now banned member who has been known to fabricate stuff when there was an agenda to be pushed.



It’s interesting that Darian has clarified that “Wonderful” into “I Ran” was a vintage-idea in 1966. That raises quite a few possibilities, however, I think that “I Ran” was eventually scrapped from the project, like “Holidays.”


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: MikestheGreatest!! on October 22, 2017, 02:12:07 PM
Stop, stop, stop it with all this sequencing nonsense, nobody cares....


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Bicyclerider on October 22, 2017, 02:19:36 PM
At least two people care.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on October 22, 2017, 02:28:00 PM
Stop, stop, stop it with all this sequencing nonsense, nobody cares....

Are you having a moment of  sincerity and self honesty?  :)


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on October 22, 2017, 02:47:51 PM
Stop, stop, stop it with all this sequencing nonsense, nobody cares....
Thanks for the constructive-criticism. You do realize this is a Beach Boys forum; and people could talk about nearly everything related to The Beach Boys, especially Beach Boys’ music, and that’s what we are doing.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: wjcrerar on October 22, 2017, 05:27:12 PM
I think, my super idealistic "hey Brian finish it this way u prick" Smile sequence would be something along the lines of:

(Prayer)
Good Vibrations
Heroes and Villains (4 and a halfish minutes, no chorus or Part 2 chant bullshittery, somewhere between the Cantina and Smiley version with the CWR/Sunny Down Snuff sections and all the verse lyrics and fade remake)
Do You Like Worms
I'm in Great Shape (as an actual developed song and not just something cobbled from the parts we have)
My Only Sunshine
Cabin Essence

Wonderful (with an a capella tag)
Vega-Tables (basically what they ended up putting together for the Smile Sessions)
Wind Chimes
The Elements (some sort of mythical medley of Fire and Cool Cool Water but with the Dada backing track, or maybe including Friday Night as earth and Whispering Winds as air but no more than 4-5 mins)
Child is Father of the Man (less conventional structure and using more of the first session outtakes!!)
Surf's Up
(You're Welcome)

I honestly think Prayer into GV is the definitive way to open Smile. Brian probably would've changed his mind sometime around late '66/early '67, but that to me's a perfect opener that really sets it up feeling like a "teenage symphony to god" and doesn't feel out of place in the sequence. Having GV in the middle kinda cuts up the Smile experience somewhat. Then, H&V takes you back to the past and opens up what the album's really about. Wonderful fits the God Only Knows/Please Let Me Wonder sort of template for a side two opener, as well as being side opener material according to BWPS, and being the projected b-side to the Vega-Tables single. I like how this keeps the 'important' sandbox songs/singles at the starts and ends of each side. All banded, apart from maybe Prayer into GV. In an ideal world Holidays and I Ran would end up on there too with Van Dyke lyrics and full vocal arrangements.


Or, alternatively:

(You're Welcome)
Heroes and Villains
Do You Like Worms
My Only Sunshine (IIGS/Barnyard/OMP/YAMS/Fade)
Cabin Essence
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (with Workshop fade)
Vega-Tables

Good Vibrations
Wind Chimes
Wonderful
I Ran
Child is Father of the Man
Surf's Up
(Prayer)

That one's a more rounded out 'Americana/Life' two movement thing that relies less on hypothetical Elements/IIGS what-ifs but it also feels a bit more disjointed with so much separation in tone between the two sides. And no Dada-less Smile mix feels complete. Obvs you'd want him to finish up the cycle of life quadrilogy with the same segues as BWPS.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: wjcrerar on October 22, 2017, 05:39:05 PM
Regarding banding, I think there would have been some, but there woukd have also been some long sequences containing several songs / sections.. In my Smile questions thread the other day, I was chasing down that VDP quote about the album being a traditional 12 track album with banding.

Turns out it was something supposedly said to a certain now banned member who has been known to fabricate stuff when there was an agenda to be pushed.


I know AGD has a dodgy history, but I believe him on this. The proof's there in the original sessions. Almost every song during the Smile era had some sort of fadeout recorded for it - there are a handful of exceptions, some that can be explained like Fire which was supposedly part of a larger track or Wonderful which potentially would've gotten a tag if it wasn't scrapped and rerecorded (version 2 had one) - but I just don't think an album with this many fades was ever meant to be all or even partially linked together BWPS or Song Cycle style. Super abrupt intros with the vocals starting right away and elaborate fadeouts were like, two of Brian's big consistent songwriting things for Smile and neither would permit segues. They even had to loop instrumental bars on TSS to make the start of Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables work.

Brian never did anything like it on a Beach Boys album before or after, and we probably wouldn't be thinking about Smile in terms of crossfades or link tracks at all if not for Domenic Priore's misguided theories based on limited bootleg information that subsequently fed into Darian influencing BWPS (helps that it fit a live performance like a glove). In 1966/1967, Brian wasn't doing fragments, he was doing songs.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on October 22, 2017, 10:41:27 PM
Regarding banding, I think there would have been some, but there woukd have also been some long sequences containing several songs / sections.. In my Smile questions thread the other day, I was chasing down that VDP quote about the album being a traditional 12 track album with banding.

Turns out it was something supposedly said to a certain now banned member who has been known to fabricate stuff when there was an agenda to be pushed.


I know AGD has a dodgy history, but I believe him on this. The proof's there in the original sessions. Almost every song during the Smile era had some sort of fadeout recorded for it - there are a handful of exceptions, some that can be explained like Fire which was supposedly part of a larger track or Wonderful which potentially would've gotten a tag if it wasn't scrapped and rerecorded (version 2 had one) - but I just don't think an album with this many fades was ever meant to be all or even partially linked together BWPS or Song Cycle style. Super abrupt intros with the vocals starting right away and elaborate fadeouts were like, two of Brian's big consistent songwriting things for Smile and neither would permit segues. They even had to loop instrumental bars on TSS to make the start of Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables work.

Brian never did anything like it on a Beach Boys album before or after, and we probably wouldn't be thinking about Smile in terms of crossfades or link tracks at all if not for Domenic Priore's misguided theories based on limited bootleg information that subsequently fed into Darian influencing BWPS (helps that it fit a live performance like a glove). In 1966/1967, Brian wasn't doing fragments, he was doing songs.

Yes, and if you look at my track list you'll see it reflects the fades. Lets take the Synphony description at face value. I think there woukd have been a series of movements.



Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Very Extremely Dan on October 25, 2017, 11:39:27 AM
I came up with this sequence after hearing Brian's "Smog" recording when he states his intention for SMiLE: 

"The way we can help is to make a record, and more or less present the facts in some interesting manner, not boring but in some way that people can retain these facts, and to sort of set up in their minds a goal to get rid of this sh*t!" 

With that in mind i found SMiLE to come together easily as a textbook American fable about the environment and the wave of change being called for by Brian and Van (and soon many others) in 1967.  Would love to know people's thoughts!

Prayer
Good Vibrations (I HEAR the sound of a gentle WORD)
Heroes and VIllains Pt.1 (OFTEN WISE.......you ARE my sunshine)
Wonderful
Do You Like Worms
I'm In Great Shape
Cabin Essence
Vega-Tables

Holidays
Wind Chimes
Mrs. O'leary's Cow
Love to Say Dada
Child is Father of the Man
The Old Master Painter (you WERE my sunshine)
Heroes and Villains Pt.2 (ARE WISE)
Surf's Up (I HEARD the WORD)


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: soniclovenoize on October 25, 2017, 01:15:20 PM
SIDE A
1. Heroes and Villains
2. Mrs O'Leary's Cow
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Good Vibrations
5. Cabin Essence
6. Do You Like Worms
7. Look

SIDE B
8. the Fade from Vege-Tables
9.  Sloop John B
10.  Do You Like Worms
11.  all of the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg
12.  Wonderful (Rock Me Henry version)
13.  the verses of Cabin Essence repeated three times
14.  Old Master Painter


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: wjcrerar on October 25, 2017, 03:35:46 PM
I came up with this sequence after hearing Brian's "Smog" recording when he states his intention for SMiLE: 

"The way we can help is to make a record, and more or less present the facts in some interesting manner, not boring but in some way that people can retain these facts, and to sort of set up in their minds a goal to get rid of this sh*t!" 

With that in mind i found SMiLE to come together easily as a textbook American fable about the environment and the wave of change being called for by Brian and Van (and soon many others) in 1967.  Would love to know people's thoughts!

Prayer
Good Vibrations (I HEAR the sound of a gentle WORD)
Heroes and VIllains Pt.1 (OFTEN WISE.......you ARE my sunshine)
Wonderful
Do You Like Worms
I'm In Great Shape
Cabin Essence
Vega-Tables

Holidays
Wind Chimes
Mrs. O'leary's Cow
Love to Say Dada
Child is Father of the Man
The Old Master Painter (you WERE my sunshine)
Heroes and Villains Pt.2 (ARE WISE)
Surf's Up (I HEARD the WORD)

I love this one! To be honest I don't think Heroes and Villains Part Two was ever an actual continuation of the song and it was mainly just the chants for a b-side exclusive...but I wish Brian did that. The lyric change to "wise" on the Children Were Raised verse for Smiley makes the idea seem almost too obvious. Someone's gotta go back in time and get Van Dyke to write some more lyrics.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: wjcrerar on October 25, 2017, 03:39:56 PM
SIDE A
1. Heroes and Villains
2. Mrs O'Leary's Cow
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Good Vibrations
5. Cabin Essence
6. Do You Like Worms
7. Look

SIDE B
8. the Fade from Vege-Tables
9.  Sloop John B
10.  Do You Like Worms
11.  all of the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg
12.  Wonderful (Rock Me Henry version)
13.  the verses of Cabin Essence repeated three times
14.  Old Master Painter

excuse me this is missing 'Can't Wait Too Long (Get the Boot fragment)' and the "we're sure to sell a million units in January" Smile promo within the actual album itself


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Very Extremely Dan on October 25, 2017, 06:05:20 PM
I agree that  the change from "often wise" to simply "wise" is obvious but that was Brian's intent for SMiLE.  If you listened and followed the story told between H&V pt.1 and H&V pt.2 you'd become wise.  You'd be enlightened by Brian's vision of the past.  And like many fables the moral of the story is stated explicitly at the end.  Surf's Up, SMiLE summed up in one song.  One man's enlightenment caused by visions of the past.

Here's the Wiki definition of a fable:  "Fable is a literary genre: a succinct fictional story, in prose or verse, that features animals, legendary creatures, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature that are anthropomorphized (given human qualities, such as the ability to speak human language) and that illustrates or leads to a particular moral lesson (a "moral"), which may at the end be added explicitly as a pithy maxim."

Of course I agree that there will never be a FINAL  ABSOLUTE version of SMiLE circa 1967, but if you are looking for a simple/logical way to put the songs together in a manner that will make sense to a neophyte this sequence works wonders.  I get so tired of reading non-believers saying Brian lost the plot and it's a bunch of half finished acid alliteration.  I think this sequence gives the lie to that untruth.  It works extremely well sequenced as a simple US history/literature/music class taught with a lot of love and mercy.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on October 25, 2017, 06:15:48 PM
SIDE A
1. Heroes and Villains
2. Mrs O'Leary's Cow
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Good Vibrations
5. Cabin Essence
6. Do You Like Worms
7. Look

SIDE B
8. the Fade from Vege-Tables
9.  Sloop John B
10.  Do You Like Worms
11.  all of the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg
12.  Wonderful (Rock Me Henry version)
13.  the verses of Cabin Essence repeated three times
14.  Old Master Painter

You forgot “God Only Knows,” obviously the most pivotal Beach Boys SMiLE-era track


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on October 25, 2017, 06:16:39 PM
I agree that  the change from "often wise" to simply "wise" is obvious but that was Brian's intent for SMiLE.  If you listened and followed the story told between H&V pt.1 and H&V pt.2 you'd become wise.  You'd be enlightened by Brian's vision of the past.  And like many fables the moral of the story is stated explicitly at the end.  Surf's Up, SMiLE summed up in one song.  One man's enlightenment caused by visions of the past.

Here's the Wiki definition of a fable:  "Fable is a literary genre: a succinct fictional story, in prose or verse, that features animals, legendary creatures, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature that are anthropomorphized (given human qualities, such as the ability to speak human language) and that illustrates or leads to a particular moral lesson (a "moral"), which may at the end be added explicitly as a pithy maxim."

Of course I agree that there will never be a FINAL  ABSOLUTE version of SMiLE circa 1967, but if you are looking for a simple/logical way to put the songs together in a manner that will make sense to a neophyte this sequence works wonders.  I get so tired of reading non-believers saying Brian lost the plot and it's a bunch of half finished acid alliteration.  I think this sequence gives the lie to that untruth.  It works extremely well sequenced as a simple US history/literature/music class taught with a lot of love and mercy.

One of your initial track-lists inspired me to make this thread.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on October 25, 2017, 06:21:29 PM
Can we all agree that there is a possibility that “Our Prayer” was once meant to precede “Good Vibrations” during the early development of the project? After all, “Good Vibrations” is plastered all over the SMiLE album-sleeve.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Very Extremely Dan on October 25, 2017, 06:44:16 PM
Can we all agree that there is a possibility that “Our Prayer” was once meant to precede “Good Vibrations” during the early development of the project? After all, “Good Vibrations” is plastered all over the SMiLE album-sleeve.

I agree!  If I'm not mistaken "Good Vibrations" was the first song whose writing was finished for SMiLE.....the message and imagery representing her (Mother Nature/Eve/Lady Liberty/Pocahontas/Flower Girl/etc.) can be found throughout the following album.  ."I love the colorful clothes she wears/and the way the SUNSHINE plays upon her HAIR/I hear the sound of a gentle WORD/on the WIND that lifts her perfume through the AIR".   Not to mention the album title in verse 2 "Softly SMiLE/I know she must be kind"

Brian was deeply concerned about Mother Earth and wanted to "keep those lovin' good vibrations happening with her"..........



Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: wjcrerar on October 25, 2017, 06:50:50 PM
I agree that  the change from "often wise" to simply "wise" is obvious but that was Brian's intent for SMiLE.  If you listened and followed the story told between H&V pt.1 and H&V pt.2 you'd become wise.  You'd be enlightened by Brian's vision of the past.  And like many fables the moral of the story is stated explicitly at the end.  Surf's Up, SMiLE summed up in one song.  One man's enlightenment caused by visions of the past.

Here's the Wiki definition of a fable:  "Fable is a literary genre: a succinct fictional story, in prose or verse, that features animals, legendary creatures, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature that are anthropomorphized (given human qualities, such as the ability to speak human language) and that illustrates or leads to a particular moral lesson (a "moral"), which may at the end be added explicitly as a pithy maxim."

Of course I agree that there will never be a FINAL  ABSOLUTE version of SMiLE circa 1967, but if you are looking for a simple/logical way to put the songs together in a manner that will make sense to a neophyte this sequence works wonders.  I get so tired of reading non-believers saying Brian lost the plot and it's a bunch of half finished acid alliteration.  I think this sequence gives the lie to that untruth.  It works extremely well sequenced as a simple US history/literature/music class taught with a lot of love and mercy.

I like this a lot

H&V as a true actual two parter was probably never remotely close to being a thing and the lyrics were just something Brian changed for the final version so the melody could let that section resolve into a different chord but I like it a lot

Only things I'd suggest would be shuffling around some songs on side 1 but...that stuff's all down to personal preference. And maybe dumping Holidays cos there's already a lot on side two. I toyed with the idea of My Only Sunshine/The Old Master Painter/whatever you wanna call it between CiFotM and Surf's Up a while ago but musically/thematically it really does make a lot of sense - losing faith in god before spiritual enlightenment. Your interpretation of Smile's my favourite I've read in a long time.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: wjcrerar on October 25, 2017, 06:55:38 PM
Can we all agree that there is a possibility that “Our Prayer” was once meant to precede “Good Vibrations” during the early development of the project? After all, “Good Vibrations” is plastered all over the SMiLE album-sleeve.

Yeah, I'm 100% converted to that. I think Prayer may have been moved to the closer after Surf's Up by as soon as even the October dinner party, but I'm totally on board with Prayer > GV being the original intended start of the album that got derailed when Heroes and Villains became the all-important new single. Everything out there points to it.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on October 25, 2017, 07:20:40 PM
1. Prayer / Do You Like Worms?
2. Cabin Essence
3. Heroes and Villains
4. Vega-Tables
5. I'm in Great Shape (Barnyard)
6. The Old Master Painter

1. Good Vibrations
2. Wonderful
3. Child is Father of the Man
4. Wind Chimes
5. The Elements
6. Surf's Up


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Very Extremely Dan on October 25, 2017, 07:47:36 PM
Thanks a lot!

Maybe it was a strictly harmonic decision to change "often wise" to "wise" but the effect of each is so different they seem purpose written.  The former is glaringly unresolved and the latter is perfectly resolved. 

After reading Brian's "Smog" explanation for SMiLE I got it in my head that it was supposed to be a very simple/not hard to grasp presentation of the facts...so what would be obvious/logical?

I put dada/child/father/old master together based on simple chronology but found that there was a deeper meaning created by doing so. 

Love to Say Dada.  Who says that?  A baby.  What is water?  The essential element for life.  What would come next after a baby?  A child which becomes a man.  And learning about the W.Wordsworth poem and it's celebration of nature it made sense following The Elements.   And what would follow a baby/child/man.....the old master painter....and yet the lyrics celebrating God and nature AREN'T sung.  He DIDN"T present his masterpiece and SMiLE down from heaven on that WONDERFUL day.  Instead he sang "You we're my sunshine".  Are you getting Brian's message? 

Isn't there a quote somewhere where Brian says that in the 66/67 version of SMiLE  OMP was the grand finale?


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Very Extremely Dan on October 25, 2017, 08:10:11 PM
Can we all agree that there is a possibility that “Our Prayer” was once meant to precede “Good Vibrations” during the early development of the project? After all, “Good Vibrations” is plastered all over the SMiLE album-sleeve.

Yeah, I'm 100% converted to that. I think Prayer may have been moved to the closer after Surf's Up by as soon as even the October dinner party, but I'm totally on board with Prayer > GV being the original intended start of the album that got derailed when Heroes and Villains became the all-important new single. Everything out there points to it.

I need to revisit the boxset for the dates but I'm remembering that they cut "Prayer" twice.  One was in C# and the second version was in D#.  (Though maybe the D# version was just the C# version sped up a whole tone a'la "Caroline, No"?!?!?!)  Not to get too muso but the C# version would "set up" H&V and the D# version would "set up" Good Vibrations or "Gee".....

Whichever version was cut second would suggest which song it was intended to pre-ceed....though D# could mean either....shoot!

 


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: wjcrerar on October 26, 2017, 01:46:21 AM
Can we all agree that there is a possibility that “Our Prayer” was once meant to precede “Good Vibrations” during the early development of the project? After all, “Good Vibrations” is plastered all over the SMiLE album-sleeve.

Yeah, I'm 100% converted to that. I think Prayer may have been moved to the closer after Surf's Up by as soon as even the October dinner party, but I'm totally on board with Prayer > GV being the original intended start of the album that got derailed when Heroes and Villains became the all-important new single. Everything out there points to it.

I need to revisit the boxset for the dates but I'm remembering that they cut "Prayer" twice.  One was in C# and the second version was in D#.  (Though maybe the D# version was just the C# version sped up a whole tone a'la "Caroline, No"?!?!?!)  Not to get too muso but the C# version would "set up" H&V and the D# version would "set up" Good Vibrations or "Gee".....

Whichever version was cut second would suggest which song it was intended to pre-ceed....though D# could mean either....shoot!

Yeah they did, the first version was recorded early on in the sessions in September 1966, which is the one where Brian calls it the 'intro to the album' on tape. That one was in C# and ends on G# and wasn't completed so I'm not really sure what it was meant to precede - it could've been H&V, but that was over a month away from being recorded and its importance for Smile hadn't been established yet. I guess Wonderful but...I really can't see Brian opening Smile with anything other than GV or Heroes. Maybe there didn't have to be a musical link?

The second and final version was recorded October 1966 (during Brian's productivity streak where he got most of Smile done post-GV) and that one's in D#, ending on Bflat, so it would 'set up' Good Vibrations. They solved the problem of it sounding awkward before Heroes on BWPS by putting Gee in the middle but in '67 I don't think that was anything more than a section of the b-side (the parts of which seem to normally be in D# instead of C#)  and never would've originally been used that way


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: wjcrerar on October 26, 2017, 03:51:07 AM
Thanks a lot!

Maybe it was a strictly harmonic decision to change "often wise" to "wise" but the effect of each is so different they seem purpose written.  The former is glaringly unresolved and the latter is perfectly resolved. 

After reading Brian's "Smog" explanation for SMiLE I got it in my head that it was supposed to be a very simple/not hard to grasp presentation of the facts...so what would be obvious/logical?

I put dada/child/father/old master together based on simple chronology but found that there was a deeper meaning created by doing so. 

Love to Say Dada.  Who says that?  A baby.  What is water?  The essential element for life.  What would come next after a baby?  A child which becomes a man.  And learning about the W.Wordsworth poem and it's celebration of nature it made sense following The Elements.   And what would follow a baby/child/man.....the old master painter....and yet the lyrics celebrating God and nature AREN'T sung.  He DIDN"T present his masterpiece and SMiLE down from heaven on that WONDERFUL day.  Instead he sang "You we're my sunshine".  Are you getting Brian's message? 

Isn't there a quote somewhere where Brian says that in the 66/67 version of SMiLE  OMP was the grand finale?

Also on some of this stuff -

The full CWR couplet + three score and five:

My children were raised, you know they suddenly rise
They started slow, long ago, head to toe, healthy, wealthy and often wise
At three score and five I'm very much alive
I still got the jive to survive with the heroes and villains


is really metrically/lyrically just a complete third verse that Brian messed around with to make it more musically interesting. I suspect the same could've once been the case with

I been in this town so long, so long to the city
I'm fit with the stuff to ride in the rough, and sunny down snuff I'm alright
Stand or fall, I know there shall be peace in the valley
And it's all an affair of my life with the heroes and villains


as how the final verse was originally written before it got cut up and moved around. That's only speculation though. The 'often wise' thing's just part of the standard verse melody that Brian builds up to in an unorthodox way to play it off as a music joke. Because...often wise, they still made mistakes. It's part of the Smile humour thing. For the revised single version, that section needs a resolution so it can transition into the start of a verse instead of the middle, so there's a lyric change and it takes on a totally different tone to fit with the moodier rest of the song. I don't think Van Dyke would've been consulted on his lyrics being changed, although the two versions do compliment each other really well when you put them together as a happy accident (my Heroes edit does that lol)

I'll never be convinced Love to Say Dada had anything to do with The Elements or water or was even supposed to fit into the grand scheme of Smile by the time it was recorded :P but the Child connection and bridge section do make it fit there well. In my ideal universe where Brain finished the album he would've just turned it into Cool Cool Water like he did 2 weeks later anyway.

During the session for the My Only Sunshine fade Brian offhand says "everybody ready this is the big finale" to encourage the musicians for the final take but I don't think he meant anything by it. Either just cos he wanted them locked in for a good take or because it was literally the fadeout of a song. In context it really doesn't sound like anything important.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on October 26, 2017, 10:15:01 AM
Michael Vosse claimed that “Do You Like Worms” and “Cabin Essence” were once closely related, and omitted lines from “Do You Like Worms” seem to imply this (I’m going to paraphrase these lines): “The East or West Indies, we always got them confused.” I feel this might have been some form of commentary on the struggle of the Eastern migrant-workers on the song “Cabin Essence” and about the “Bicycle Rider”’s affect on the “...Church of the American Indian.” I recall Vosse elaborating further; stipulating that the “Bicycle Rider” and “Iron Horse”-sections once existed as a single-piece. Of course; this must have been an early-idea that was ditched in favour of having the two songs as being separate; hence why there isn’t surviving recordings or recollection of such recordings of the “East or West Indies” line. If you study the Durre Parks acetates; there is an acetate that goes from “Who Ran The Iron Horse?,” to “Bicycle Rider,” to the verse of “Heroes and Villains.” My conclusions that these pieces were related more than previously thought could be heavily deviated from truth, but I’m basing such conclusions from factual-information (the Vosse piece, lyric-drafts, acetate-edits). By the way, how was a connect between “Do You Like Worms” to “Holidays” even established?


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: wjcrerar on October 26, 2017, 11:28:25 AM
I think Home on the Range, Who Ran the Iron Horse, Grand Coulee Dam, Bicycle Rider and (if the fragment was actually called that) Roll Plymouth Rock generally all just came from the same pool of ideas about Manifest Destiny and American history and that's why they were often linked. H&V has an old west theme, and there is the 'Spanish and Indian' reference that could sort of be related, but we know that came much earlier than the rest of Smile without a wider plan in mind. Across the album Cabin Essence and Do You Like Worms are really the only songs that fully explore the Manifest Destiny stuff, despite Heroes and Villains and Surf's Up and Mrs. O'Leary's Cow and the covers seemingly solidifying those concepts by touching similar areas. It's all just in those five fragments. I get the impression that they were probably written close together spawning from the same discussion between Brian and Van Dyke, like that time Brian was all "hey Van I wanna do a song about healthy living and the elements or something" and Vega-Tables happened. "Hey Brian I wanna do a thing about the evils of colonialism on your Beach Boys record"

IMO the "Having returned to the East or West Indies" line was gonna go over the Bicycle Rider reprise at the end, it fits the melody perfectly and 'confused' is even reflected in the music during the breakdown. I'm pretty sure Frank Holmes said it was the final lyric of the song. Kinda confusing that it didn't make it to BWPS but I guess it could've been for the same reason the other melody line heard on the session tape or the Cabin Essence reconnected telephone lyrics didn't make it - Brian just couldn't remember everything about some songs he didn't even finish 40 years ago.

Holidays/DYLW connection mostly comes from Darian saying Brian instinctively put the "rock rock roll" chorus over Holidays when they brought it up, can't remember if Brian told him it was a vintage idea or not but sounds like it was. Apparently it's in the newer Priore book but I haven't read it. Plus there's Brian off-mic singing lyrics that sound like they're about Indians in the Holidays session, and him mumble singing "once upon the sandwich holidays" in the Worms session. Speculation is that Holidays was kinda like Worms 1.0 before they scrapped it and used some of the lyrical concepts in a new song.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: zavarov on October 28, 2017, 02:18:30 AM
Hi Brian.
I come from the future, listen to this, just one time.
Then i will disappear :)

https://youtu.be/nwCdeF0RzSI


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on October 28, 2017, 07:14:51 AM
Hi Brian.
I come from the future, listen to this, just one time.
Then i will disappear :)

https://youtu.be/nwCdeF0RzSI

Great work!


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Uncle Walter on October 28, 2017, 09:26:30 AM
Hi Brian.
I come from the future, listen to this, just one time.
Then i will disappear :)

https://youtu.be/nwCdeF0RzSI
That transition into Worms is awesome! Great work!!


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: jiggy22 on October 28, 2017, 10:48:19 AM
Hi Brian.
I come from the future, listen to this, just one time.
Then i will disappear :)

https://youtu.be/nwCdeF0RzSI

I LOVE the outro, great work man!


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: zavarov on October 28, 2017, 12:17:11 PM
Thanks!! :)


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: wjcrerar on October 28, 2017, 04:34:37 PM
That outro reminded me of the end of the Beatles' LOVE album. One of the best things I've heard in a Smile mix!


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on October 28, 2017, 05:49:15 PM
Here's my new and improved sequence.
Side One-
1.   Good Vibrations
2.   Cabin Essence
3.   Do You Like Worms
4.   Heroes and Villains
5.   The Elements
6.   I’m In Great Shape
7.   Vega-Tables
Side Two-
8.   Holidays
9.   Wind Chimes
10.   Wonderful
11.   I Ran
12.   Child is The Father of The Man
13.   Surf’s Up
This track sequence or template intends to present the material recorded for the Beach Boys’ tentative “Smile” project from mid to late 1966 as a two-movement suite that was hinted by the project’s leader Brian Wilson in a 2004 interview.
This track sequence considers musical flow from one track to the next, collaborator Van Dyke Parks’ lyrics, artist Frank Holmes’ period artwork intended for the project, vintage acetate discs and tapes that consisted of arrangements of fragments meant to join as a song or tentative track compilations, Michael Vosse’s articles about “Smile” from 1966-67, some of The Beach Boys’ later musical output from 1967 and later that drew inspiration or borrowed from the discarded project (emphasis on “Smiley Smile”), Jules Siegel’s 1967 article written about “Smile,” Michael Vosse’s recollections about the project from a 1968 interview, Darian Sahanaja’s recollections about Brian Wilson’s original ideas for the project when working with Wilson in 2004, and Van Dyke Parks’ recollections about the project from interviews.
A note about “Heroes and Villains”: opens with the section: “Introduction,” commonly referred to as: “Chimes.” After the first two verses; segues to the section: “I’m In Great Shape…” followed by sections: “My Children Were Raised…” “At Three Score & Five…” respectively. Acapella barbershop vocals follow to the section: “Barnyard,” segueing to and finally ending on the section: “The Old Master Painter.”


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on October 28, 2017, 06:05:51 PM
Hi Brian.
I come from the future, listen to this, just one time.
Then i will disappear :)

https://youtu.be/nwCdeF0RzSI
I've had to listen to it twice to process it... It's simply unbelievable. I could vividly imagine Paul McCartney trembling uncontrollably due to the sheer amazement of something like this being released in 1967.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: peerke on October 29, 2017, 11:59:31 PM
Hi Brian.
I come from the future, listen to this, just one time.
Then i will disappear :)

https://youtu.be/nwCdeF0RzSI

Simply excellent. Congrats!


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: zosobird on October 30, 2017, 08:15:43 AM
Thanks a lot!

Maybe it was a strictly harmonic decision to change "often wise" to "wise" but the effect of each is so different they seem purpose written.  The former is glaringly unresolved and the latter is perfectly resolved. 

After reading Brian's "Smog" explanation for SMiLE I got it in my head that it was supposed to be a very simple/not hard to grasp presentation of the facts...so what would be obvious/logical?

I put dada/child/father/old master together based on simple chronology but found that there was a deeper meaning created by doing so. 

Love to Say Dada.  Who says that?  A baby.  What is water?  The essential element for life.  What would come next after a baby?  A child which becomes a man.  And learning about the W.Wordsworth poem and it's celebration of nature it made sense following The Elements.   And what would follow a baby/child/man.....the old master painter....and yet the lyrics celebrating God and nature AREN'T sung.  He DIDN"T present his masterpiece and SMiLE down from heaven on that WONDERFUL day.  Instead he sang "You we're my sunshine".  Are you getting Brian's message? 

Isn't there a quote somewhere where Brian says that in the 66/67 version of SMiLE  OMP was the grand finale?

The theory of this being a "grand fanale" of sorts comes from two places afaik...
1) The Feb '67 H&V single mix had the OMP tag at the end
2) The handwritten SMiLE tracking list had OMP at the end in parenthesis


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Alex on October 31, 2017, 06:32:40 PM
Our Prayer
Heroes and Villains
Heroes and Villains Part 2
I'm In Great Shape
Barnyard
He Gives Speeches
Do You Like Worms?
Tones
Three Blind Mice
The Old Master Painter-You Were My Sunshine
Cabinessence
Bicycle Rider
Wonderful
Look
Teeter-Totter Love
My Little Red Book
I Don't Know
Child Is The Father Of The Man
Holidays
With Me Tonight
Indian Wisdom
Good Vibrations
Vega-Tables
Wind Chimes
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
I Wanna Be Around-Workshop
Cool Cool Water-I Love To Say Da Da
Surf's Up
You're Welcome


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on November 01, 2017, 03:06:15 PM
Our Prayer
Heroes and Villains
Heroes and Villains Part 2
I'm In Great Shape
Barnyard
He Gives Speeches
Do You Like Worms?
Tones
Three Blind Mice
The Old Master Painter-You Were My Sunshine
Cabinessence
Bicycle Rider
Wonderful
Look
Teeter-Totter Love
My Little Red Book
I Don't Know
Child Is The Father Of The Man
Holidays
With Me Tonight
Indian Wisdom
Good Vibrations
Vega-Tables
Wind Chimes
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
I Wanna Be Around-Workshop
Cool Cool Water-I Love To Say Da Da
Surf's Up
You're Welcome

That's pretty lengthy, although at the same time very thorough and covers a wide range of music that was recorded during or after the sessions for the album into an enjoyable list.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Bissonic on November 02, 2017, 09:39:36 AM
Moine, just for yuks:

SMiLe

1. (Prayer/Gee) HEROES AND VILLAINS
2. DO YOU LIKE WORMS
3. I'M IN GREAT SHAPE
(The Barnyard Suite: I'm In Great Shape/Barnyard/Three Blind Mice/Whistle In)
4. THE OLD MASTER PAINTER
5. CABIN ESSENCE
6. WONDERFUL

7. (Look) CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN
8. SURF'S UP
9. VEGA-TABLES
10. (Holidays) WIND CHIMES
11. THE ELEMENTS
(The Elements Suite: Air; Country Air/Fire; Mrs O'Leary's Cow/Earth; I Wanna Be Around-Workshop/Water; I Love To Say Da Da)
12. GOOD VIBRATIONS


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on November 02, 2017, 03:10:44 PM
Moine, just for yuks:

SMiLe

1. (Prayer/Gee) HEROES AND VILLAINS
2. DO YOU LIKE WORMS
3. I'M IN GREAT SHAPE
(The Barnyard Suite: I'm In Great Shape/Barnyard/Three Blind Mice/Whistle In)
4. THE OLD MASTER PAINTER
5. CABIN ESSENCE
6. WONDERFUL

7. (Look) CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN
8. SURF'S UP
9. VEGA-TABLES
10. (Holidays) WIND CHIMES
11. THE ELEMENTS
(The Elements Suite: Air; Country Air/Fire; Mrs O'Leary's Cow/Earth; I Wanna Be Around-Workshop/Water; I Love To Say Da Da)
12. GOOD VIBRATIONS

I love how you used “Country Air” as a part of “The Elements.”


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on November 02, 2017, 03:15:07 PM
I feel confident in this template, but am wondering where to place four other songs in the blank space provided:

1. Good Vibrations
2. —
3. —
4. Do You Like Worms
5. Heroes and Villains
6. The Old Master Painter

7. The Elements
8. I’m In Great Shape
9. Vega-Tables
10. —
11. —
12. Surf’s Up

The four remaining tracks are “Wonderful,” “Child is The Father of The Man,” “Cabin Essence,” and “Wind Chimes.”


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: jiggy22 on November 03, 2017, 11:41:38 AM
I feel confident in this template, but am wondering where to place four other songs in the blank space provided:

1. Good Vibrations
2. —
3. —
4. Do You Like Worms
5. Heroes and Villains
6. The Old Master Painter

7. The Elements
8. I’m In Great Shape
9. Vega-Tables
10. —
11. —
12. Surf’s Up

The four remaining tracks are “Wonderful,” “Child is The Father of The Man,” “Cabin Essence,” and “Wind Chimes.”

Me personally, I'd put "Wind Chimes" after "Good Vibrations", with "Cabin-Essence" following afterwards. As for Side Two, I'd go with Wonderful-Child is Father of the Man-Surf's Up, just to keep in spirit with that "Cycle of Life" theme!

I'm sure I've talked about my version of Smile here before, but since I'm writing this post while bored out of my mind in my Listening to Music class, I guess I'll just be posting it again!

SIDE A:
1. Our Prayer/Gee
2. Heroes and Villains
3. Do You Like Worms?
4. Wonderful
5. I'm in Great Shape/Barnyard/My Only Sunshine
6. Cabin-Essence
SIDE B:
1. Good Vibrations
2. Vega-Tables
3. Wind Chimes
4. Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
5. Child is Father of the Man
6. Surf's Up
7. You're Welcome (Hidden track)


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: MaestroDavros on November 16, 2017, 04:37:11 PM
My current SMiLE sequence is kind of a "what if Jan '67" list, factoring in the new importance of the Heroes And Villains single. Even though it was unlikely to have an "Americana" side and an "Elementals" side it wasn't unheard of at the time for albums to have themed sides so I've stuck with that. Granted, I'm using elements from post SMiLE, but I once heard a mix years ago (now gone as it was deleted from YouTube) that exclusively used pre '67 material and, although fascinating, I found it to be quite bare-bones. Still working on the finishing touches but right now it looks something like this:

Side 1: Americana

Our Prayer (Unlisted)

1. Heroes And Villains
2. Do You Like Worms?
3. Wonderful
4. Child Is Father Of The Man
5. The Old Master Painter / My Only Sunshine
6. Cabin Essence

Side 2: The Elementals

1. Good Vibrations
2. I'm In Great Shape
3. Vega-Tables
4. The Elements
a). Fire (Mrs. O'Leary's Cow)
b). Earth (I Wanna Be Around / Workshop)
c). Water (WH Water Chant, Dec '66 Dada piano pieces)
d). Air (Smog, Breathing Sounds, Wind Chimes V2 Tag)
5. Wind Chimes
6. Surf's Up

You're Welcome (Unlisted)

There we go; 2 sides, 12 songs, most having fadeouts. I'll report back once I'm done with a track-by-track breakdown.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on November 16, 2017, 05:36:12 PM
My current SMiLE sequence is kind of a "what if Jan '67" list, factoring in the new importance of the Heroes And Villains single. Even though it was unlikely to have an "Americana" side and an "Elementals" side it wasn't unheard of at the time for albums to have themed sides so I've stuck with that. Granted, I'm using elements from post SMiLE, but I once heard a mix years ago (now gone as it was deleted from YouTube) that exclusively used pre '67 material and, although fascinating, I found it to be quite bare-bones. Still working on the finishing touches but right now it looks something like this:

Side 1: Americana

Our Prayer (Unlisted)

1. Heroes And Villains
2. Do You Like Worms?
3. Wonderful
4. Child Is Father Of The Man
5. The Old Master Painter / My Only Sunshine
6. Cabin Essence

Side 2: The Elementals

1. Good Vibrations
2. I'm In Great Shape
3. Vega-Tables
4. The Elements
a). Fire (Mrs. O'Leary's Cow)
b). Earth (I Wanna Be Around / Workshop)
c). Water (WH Water Chant, Dec '66 Dada piano pieces)
d). Air (Smog, Breathing Sounds, Wind Chimes V2 Tag)
5. Wind Chimes
6. Surf's Up

You're Welcome (Unlisted)

There we go; 2 sides, 12 songs, most having fadeouts. I'll report back once I'm done with a track-by-track breakdown.

I like your track sequence, especially the first side.

I would like to use this opportunity to explain some 'Smile' observations:

"The Old Master Painter" was implied by Michael Vosse in 1968 to have once been connected to "The Woodshed Song," (thematically or musically; that is up for debate). This detail branched from a discussion about "Heroes and Villains."

I am not sure if this counts, but Frank Holmes' recent artwork for "Wonderful" (completed in the 2000s) includes a cabin among other references to the lyrics of "Wonderful," possibly implying a thematic connection between the songs "Cabin Essence" and "Wonderful."

"Cabin Essence" and "Do You Like Worms" have long been correlated, by Michael Vosse, by Jules Siegel, by Tom Nolan. There even exist edits found on acetate discs (refer to the Durrie Parks acetate disc collection) that combine the two songs, and also the intro to "Heroes and Villains." We know that "Do You Like Worms" and "Heroes and Villains" were connected (January '67: "Bridge to The Indians," "Bicycle Rider vocal overdubs." February '67: "Heroes and Villains: Chorus." June '67: "Heroes and Villains: Chorus (vocals overdubs, incorporating lyrics of "Do You Like Worms.))

I am not sure if the '66 piano arrangement of "Da-Da" would have likely been the 'water' section to the planned 'elements suite' in 1966. If anything, it fits Brian Wilson's recollections of the 'air' section of the 'elements suite' in 1978. Either way, who knows definitively? Not even Wilson does (in present day).

Of course, there are Carol Kaye's remarks during a recording session for 'The Woodshed Song' possibly suggesting that the song was meant to follow "the fire." Those comments might have also been about how the sessions for "The Elements - Part One (Fire)" preceded the sessions for "The Woodshed Song."

"Holidays" *might* (I repeat, MIGHT) have been an earlier reworking of "Da-Da." Sounds strange, right? Some might have stopped reading this already. I suggest listening to the chord progression of the choruses of "Holidays," and then the chord progression of "Da-Da."

"Child is The Father of The Man" (the group vocal performance that was recorded with a sole piano accompaniment in April, '67) shares the same chord progression (and chords) with the few last seconds played by The Wrecking Crew after the tracking of "Love to Say Da-Da: Part Two."

The same chord progression (using the same chords) was being demonstrated and recorded on piano by Wilson during a post-'Smile' 1967 session for "Cool, Cool Water."

What does all this prove? Not much!


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Very Extremely Dan on November 16, 2017, 09:58:08 PM
I think ALL THIS PROVES that SMiLE was to be an incredibly deep concept album that told a coherent story through repeated musical/conceptual/lyrical/visual symbolism.   

For example the classic archetype of "Boy meets Girl" in "Good Vibrations" is retold in "Heroes and Villains" and retold in "Wonderful" from the girl's perspective.  Who is this girl?  Mother Nature?  A Flower girl?  Eve?  Pocahontas?   Lady Liberty?  Brian's muse?  She's all of these things!  Who is this boy?  A western outlaw?  A Mayflower Pilgrim?  An Okie heading to California to pick vegetables?  The Old Paster Painter of the great American landscape?  He is all these things...and Brian too!   "Do You Like Worms" is Boy meets Girl retold as "Native American Garden of Eden meets Manifest Destiny".   Imagery and ideas,  particularly (en)light(enment) and air, appear and reappear through out Brian and Van's songs and Frank Holmes art.  It is all one!

To that end I agree that one can hear in those instances how Brian was exploring the musical connections between CIFOTM and Dada.  If Dada is the first word of a baby and represents water the source of all life, it makes sense to connect it with "Child is Father to the Man"  a song about the spiritually rejuvenating properties of nature.  Then, following the cycle of life from baby to child to man who's next?  The Old Master Painter who created this beautiful world.....only he doesn't sing his song.  He sings "you we're my sunshine"....and that's Brian's enlightening message:  That mother nature is in danger but we can change course and get back to the garden.  "Got to keep those good vibrations happening with her" !!!

Here's another theory.  Why did Brian use the Crow's "Gee" in "Heroes and Villains" and also try to interpolate Etta James' "The Wallflower (Roll with Me Henry)" into "Wonderful" ?  Boy meets Girl!

From Wikipedia:  "Gee", released in June 1953 by The Crows, is a song which has been credited as the first rock and roll hit by a rock and roll group.  And what is widely recognized as the first rock and roll hit by a female artist?  You guessed it Etta James'  "The Wallflower".

If you've read this far, THANKS!.....and please allow me to conduct a poll:

My organizing principal for SMiLE has always been that it is literally a chronological history of America told in flashback by the protagonist from Heroes and Villains:  from the Native American Garden of Eden meeting the Pilgrims, thru the Industrial Revolution and Great Western Migration up to the environmentally/spiritually broken war machine Brian and Van were surveying from the sandbox in '66 as Carl's Vietnam draft notice showed up in the mail.  Ahem....

So, the album begins with Prayer, then we meet our first protagonist in Heroes and Villains who quickly flashes back to tell us his story.  Now,  going strictly chronologically I've always put "Wonderful" next to begin in Native America (she belongs there left with her liberty).  Her beautiful final fleeting notes are then rudely crashed in upon by the first British Invasion at Plymouth Rock of "Do You Like Worms". 

But it's dawned on me that for the listener to recognize that the album is specifically about America it might be more immediately understood as such if  "Heroes and Villains" is followed by "Do You Like Worms".  The lyrics are more specifically about America than "Wonderful" and its variant of Brian's message "Heroes and villains just see what you've done to the church of the American Indian" is stated more explicitly.  Followed by "Wonderful" it's as if it sets the stage (from Plymouth Rock to Hawaii) for the story we are about to hear about a boy bumping into a girl......

Well, I can't decide.  They both work on paper, but if you were hearing the Beach Boys new album for the first time in the Spring of 1967 which sequence  do you think would make the America connection most explicit?--

Heroes and Villains Pt. 1/ Wonderful/ Do You Like Worms

or

Heroes and Villains Pt.1/Do You Like Worms/Wonderful

Thanks in advance!!!


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2017, 01:52:51 AM
Our Prayer
Heroes and Villains
Heroes and Villains Part 2
I'm In Great Shape
Barnyard
He Gives Speeches
Do You Like Worms?
Tones
Three Blind Mice
The Old Master Painter-You Were My Sunshine
Cabinessence
Bicycle Rider
Wonderful
Look
Teeter-Totter Love
My Little Red Book
I Don't Know
Child Is The Father Of The Man
Holidays
With Me Tonight
Indian Wisdom
Good Vibrations
Vega-Tables
Wind Chimes
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
I Wanna Be Around-Workshop
Cool Cool Water-I Love To Say Da Da
Surf's Up
You're Welcome

That's pretty lengthy, although at the same time very thorough and covers a wide range of music that was recorded during or after the sessions for the album into an enjoyable list.

I think I'm going to edit together a new SMiLE mix now. Haven't really done one in about 10 years, and that one was super crazy.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: rab2591 on November 17, 2017, 10:06:02 AM
I think ALL THIS PROVES that SMiLE was to be an incredibly deep concept album that told a coherent story through repeated musical/conceptual/lyrical/visual symbolism.   

For example the classic archetype of "Boy meets Girl" in "Good Vibrations" is retold in "Heroes and Villains" and retold in "Wonderful" from the girl's perspective.  Who is this girl?  Mother Nature?  A Flower girl?  Eve?  Pocahontas?   Lady Liberty?  Brian's muse?  She's all of these things!  Who is this boy?  A western outlaw?  A Mayflower Pilgrim?  An Okie heading to California to pick vegetables?  The Old Paster Painter of the great American landscape?  He is all these things...and Brian too!   "Do You Like Worms" is Boy meets Girl retold as "Native American Garden of Eden meets Manifest Destiny".   Imagery and ideas,  particularly (en)light(enment) and air, appear and reappear through out Brian and Van's songs and Frank Holmes art.  It is all one!

To that end I agree that one can hear in those instances how Brian was exploring the musical connections between CIFOTM and Dada.  If Dada is the first word of a baby and represents water the source of all life, it makes sense to connect it with "Child is Father to the Man"  a song about the spiritually rejuvenating properties of nature.  Then, following the cycle of life from baby to child to man who's next?  The Old Master Painter who created this beautiful world.....only he doesn't sing his song.  He sings "you we're my sunshine"....and that's Brian's enlightening message:  That mother nature is in danger but we can change course and get back to the garden.  "Got to keep those good vibrations happening with her" !!!

Here's another theory.  Why did Brian use the Crow's "Gee" in "Heroes and Villains" and also try to interpolate Etta James' "The Wallflower (Roll with Me Henry)" into "Wonderful" ?  Boy meets Girl!

From Wikipedia:  "Gee", released in June 1953 by The Crows, is a song which has been credited as the first rock and roll hit by a rock and roll group.  And what is widely recognized as the first rock and roll hit by a female artist?  You guessed it Etta James'  "The Wallflower".

If you've read this far, THANKS!.....and please allow me to conduct a poll:

My organizing principal for SMiLE has always been that it is literally a chronological history of America told in flashback by the protagonist from Heroes and Villains:  from the Native American Garden of Eden meeting the Pilgrims, thru the Industrial Revolution and Great Western Migration up to the environmentally/spiritually broken war machine Brian and Van were surveying from the sandbox in '66 as Carl's Vietnam draft notice showed up in the mail.  Ahem....

So, the album begins with Prayer, then we meet our first protagonist in Heroes and Villains who quickly flashes back to tell us his story.  Now,  going strictly chronologically I've always put "Wonderful" next to begin in Native America (she belongs there left with her liberty).  Her beautiful final fleeting notes are then rudely crashed in upon by the first British Invasion at Plymouth Rock of "Do You Like Worms". 

But it's dawned on me that for the listener to recognize that the album is specifically about America it might be more immediately understood as such if  "Heroes and Villains" is followed by "Do You Like Worms".  The lyrics are more specifically about America than "Wonderful" and its variant of Brian's message "Heroes and villains just see what you've done to the church of the American Indian" is stated more explicitly.  Followed by "Wonderful" it's as if it sets the stage (from Plymouth Rock to Hawaii) for the story we are about to hear about a boy bumping into a girl......

Well, I can't decide.  They both work on paper, but if you were hearing the Beach Boys new album for the first time in the Spring of 1967 which sequence  do you think would make the America connection most explicit?--

Heroes and Villains Pt. 1/ Wonderful/ Do You Like Worms

or

Heroes and Villains Pt.1/Do You Like Worms/Wonderful

Thanks in advance!!!

Man what a great post. I don’t think I’ve ever thought about putting Wonderful after H&V, but I’m gonna try it. Given that Wonderful has that jangly harpsichord feel that ‘You Still Believe In Me’ (and that song followed up the opener WIBN) i think such a song order would make sense in Smile too.

And perhaps since Smile is a collage of sorts, it would make sense that the story, to a first time listener, isn’t all too clear. They have to piece it together in a way that by the end makes perfect sense. So making Wonderful sandwich in between H&V and Worms would be my vote.

These last few posts here are great reading. Makes me miss the smile talk from 2011!


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: The Old Master Painter on November 17, 2017, 08:50:40 PM
These posts, and this thread in general, revive an aspect of nostalgia that drew me deeply toward the music of The Beach Boys. I started frequenting this message board at the mere age of twelve, being fascinated by the music of 'Pet Sounds,' and the incomplete work of 'Smile.' I'm fifteen now, so the mystique surrounding the fabled 'Smile' project for me was a large part of growing up. I cannot hold a grudge against anyone or thing that contributed to what ultimately became 'Smiley Smile.' I have no basis to do so, but I surely regret the existence of 'Smiley Smile' in September 1967 over the 'Smile' album that was once being proudly advertised in January 1967, even if it means that The Beatles would have been so overwhelmed to the point of not even conceiving or completing the 'Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band' that we all know and love today. Even though 'Smiley Smile' is underrated in its own right (in my opinion), 'Smile,' as incomplete or fractured as it exists, still sounds complete due to its sometimes inadvertently skeletal nature, and, in my opinion, largely better than 'Smiley Smile.' Creating these hypothetical track sequences to document or retell the unfinished concept that was once conceived in 1966 through the music itself was (and sort of is) a ritual of mine that I partake in when approaching this work since the music; specifically the modular composition standpoint, lends itself to fans heavily forming new narratives or concepts primarily based on the music, that results in still maintaining the music's relevancy.


Title: Re: Your SMiLE sequence
Post by: rab2591 on November 18, 2017, 12:38:48 PM
These posts, and this thread in general, revive an aspect of nostalgia that drew me deeply toward the music of The Beach Boys. I started frequenting this message board at the mere age of twelve, being fascinated by the music of 'Pet Sounds,' and the incomplete work of 'Smile.' I'm fifteen now, so the mystique surrounding the fabled 'Smile' project for me was a large part of growing up. I cannot hold a grudge against anyone or thing that contributed to what ultimately became 'Smiley Smile.' I have no basis to do so, but I surely regret the existence of 'Smiley Smile' in September 1967 over the 'Smile' album that was once being proudly advertised in January 1967, even if it means that The Beatles would have been so overwhelmed to the point of not even conceiving or completing the 'Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band' that we all know and love today. Even though 'Smiley Smile' is underrated in its own right (in my opinion), 'Smile,' as incomplete or fractured as it exists, still sounds complete due to its sometimes inadvertently skeletal nature, and, in my opinion, largely better than 'Smiley Smile.' Creating these hypothetical track sequences to document or retell the unfinished concept that was once conceived in 1966 through the music itself was (and sort of is) a ritual of mine that I partake in when approaching this work since the music; specifically the modular composition standpoint, lends itself to fans heavily forming new narratives or concepts primarily based on the music, that results in still maintaining the music's relevancy.

I think that’s the best thing about this album. It’s so open to revision and becoming involved yourself. What other album in history allows you to mash together your own mix with so much freedom and room for being completely unique?

And my favorite part is that Brian has since released what he considers the finished SMiLE album and it’s fantastic. But yet we’re also able to roll our own. People have even successfully mashed together vocals from BWPS with the vintage instrumentals....making it clear that nearly anything is possible when it comes to these tracks.

Anyways, glad to see Smile talk still alive and well here.