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Author Topic: Brian Wilson - 2018 Tour Thread  (Read 68366 times)
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« Reply #400 on: January 30, 2018, 12:13:43 PM »

Since you won't let it die, and feel the need to keep pushing, which is amazing as I know you're busying acting as an impartial moderator......

Three or four pages ago, HJ mentioned the possibility of a reunited Beach Boys lineup doing a Vegas residency. 

I simply said it would be a good idea for Brian Wilson to take some of the strain off touring because he had back issues. 

And, you decided to take offense to that statement, and in the process waste 3-4 pages of Brian's 2018 Tour Thread. 

I'm still not sure how suggesting a Vegas residency might be beneficial to Brian is somehow a bad statement or has some sort of "endgame" as you put it.

THAT'S ALL!!!


Right. It's all about the music, too.




He looks lethargic and uninvolved onstage. As he walks offstage, usually a roadie or two will walk out and take his arm as he walks. His voice has degraded noticeably over the past 3 years. He's well into his 70s and very overweight. Mike and Bruce are, in comparison, very spry and in good shape. The concerns about Brian's health are not unfounded.

You beat me to it. 

Uncle Walter was responding to your taking an issue with my post.   Other than the fact that I've acknowledged that "very overweight" is an exaggeration, what does that statement say that's not factual?   And how is pointing it out a bad thing, GF? 

Or do you want to continue to hijack this thread for four more pages? 

You can try to paint my questions as hijacking or whatever else you want to do to deflect from answering them. Including answering a direct question by trying to flip it back on me.

I'll ask again, direct question: Why is there a need to bring up Brian's health issues whenever his touring is being discussed? And that extends to those who do it regularly.
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« Reply #401 on: January 30, 2018, 12:23:49 PM »

Since you won't let it die, and feel the need to keep pushing, which is amazing as I know you're busying acting as an impartial moderator......

Three or four pages ago, HJ mentioned the possibility of a reunited Beach Boys lineup doing a Vegas residency. 

I simply said it would be a good idea for Brian Wilson to take some of the strain off touring because he had back issues. 

And, you decided to take offense to that statement, and in the process waste 3-4 pages of Brian's 2018 Tour Thread. 

I'm still not sure how suggesting a Vegas residency might be beneficial to Brian is somehow a bad statement or has some sort of "endgame" as you put it.

THAT'S ALL!!!


Right. It's all about the music, too.




He looks lethargic and uninvolved onstage. As he walks offstage, usually a roadie or two will walk out and take his arm as he walks. His voice has degraded noticeably over the past 3 years. He's well into his 70s and very overweight. Mike and Bruce are, in comparison, very spry and in good shape. The concerns about Brian's health are not unfounded.

You beat me to it. 

Uncle Walter was responding to your taking an issue with my post.   Other than the fact that I've acknowledged that "very overweight" is an exaggeration, what does that statement say that's not factual?   And how is pointing it out a bad thing, GF? 

Or do you want to continue to hijack this thread for four more pages? 

You can try to paint my questions as hijacking or whatever else you want to do to deflect from answering them. Including answering a direct question by trying to flip it back on me.

I'll ask again, direct question: Why is there a need to bring up Brian's health issues whenever his touring is being discussed? And that extends to those who do it regularly.

Well, guitarfool, I don't bring up Brian's health every single time a tour is mentioned, so I can't possibly answer your question.   

So, you'd have to go and question every single person who raises the issue. 
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« Reply #402 on: January 30, 2018, 12:39:33 PM »

Again, if you've been a fan and have read these boards and fan groups since the 90s, especially since Brian started touring in 1999, there have ALWAYS been calls for Brian to quit. *EVERY* tour.

Apologies for pulling out this one sentence, because the whole of your post was 100% correct in detailing the reactions to every tour the man has done. That's fact, and I saw it play out too. Nearly 20 years of it, as I said in an earlier post.

But I pulled this quote out to ask specifically *why* you think this is the case, beyond possibly fans getting bored with it and reacting like this. I'm also curious if you've noticed especially in recent years fans of a certain mindset making these calls versus other groups of fans, and I'll leave that to be interpreted however someone chooses to take it.

I think Brian is a unique situation, a unique show. For "outsiders" who don't know anything about his life or his history, his live performances can be really weird. It's easy for that type of observer to say Brian's in no shape to perform live. I do understand that.

I think, all else being equal, it's not so much "Brian's nuts and shouldn't be touring", but it's more the same reason some people don't dig on a Bob Dylan concert, or Tom Waits, or Nick Cave, or whatever. Brian's voice, for a variety of common and less common reasons, is challenged, especially in concert settings.

I knew all this as a long-time fan going into the 1999 tour. I had seen the "Imagination" TV appearances. I had seen Brian at past BB shows. The weird, hyped up (maybe coked out?) performances on the 1977 tour. The quiet, off to the side performances from 1979 and 1980. The weird Landy-devised appearances of the late 80s (tight leather pants?). I know what I was getting into.

It was transcendent in ways I don't think even huge fans could have imagined. It was also still weird. Brian sang the wrong words during one song because he probably *shouldn't* have been using the teleprompter so much; he actually *didn't* need it. Brian in early 1999 shows did "fake" play the piano. But not because he *can't* play piano. It's because, for some reason, he had the idea that he couldn't just sit and sing (which is what he did on the 2000 tour I saw, resulting in some of his best vocals, as if he was cutting them in a studio).

But Brian fans "get" it. We can at times be overly forgiving. But it's not because simply he's "our guy", it's because we know the wringer he's been through, *numerous* times. And he *can* put on a good show. He can get in a good mood, and sing with gusto and energy. To this day.

My issue is that the misgivings were justified to some degree back in 1999, but we haven't really been given any further definitive info one way or the other since then. The same is true today as it was in 1999, and as a fan we either accept it and go to the show, or we don't. I respect both decisions. Have I ever wondered whether Brian should still be touring? Sure. I was at the 2007 show with Al where Brian decided to lay down on stage. There's no way that *wasn't* weird. But I also don't think he had  hit some new wall that wasn't there in 1999. He had bad days in 1999. He had a *really bad day* in 2007. And sometimes he also has "regular" bad days; he has a cold or just feels crummy or whatever.

But Brian touring is a unique thing unto itself in some ways, and that's why what some may feel is a simple call to question his weight or whatever is not simply a normal observation. It comes loaded with 50 years of band politics.

I don't think, pre-2012, there was much of any huge mechanism trying to actively tear Brian down. That *did* change post-C50. Those Mike interviews, those Beard pieces, those read to me (and it's just my opinion) to be a clear, active campaign to tear Brian down. I think some other fans that maybe tended to be a bit more friendly to Mike's "side" of things may have unknowingly been made a part of that sort of campaign.

I think there is a litmus test, in my mind, for how realistic a fan is willing to be about the deep, hardcore (unfortunate) politics surrounding this band. There are several litmus tests, but one is this: Do you think Jeff Foskett jumping from Brian's band to Mike's is a political move, and comes across (and maybe even was devised as) a big F-You to Melinda Wilson? If your answer is no, then I often fear that means you're either actively part of some weird campaign to paint Mike in a positive light, or you're unknowingly falling into that trap.

I don't think KDS came on this thread to rip Brian a new one. I think, as a *somewhat* newer/new-ish fan (meaing not decades and decades), he maybe doesn't see how defending Mike on average more than a typical fan, and then also saying some things that might reflect negatively on Brian, will often be met with a questioning of motives.

If we can be frank, I think KDS is (and I mean this as an absolutely neutral label, TRULY, because I can't think of a better descriptor) a fan of the fence-walking variety. There's no lack of a willingness to criticize both sides, but sometimes I sense of sake of false equivalency for the sake of it. There is indeed a fine line between being truly even-handed and fence-walking for the sake of it. I'm for criticizing only when it's warranted, but that doesn't mean "say one nice thing about this, and then one nice thing about that." So yeah, when it comes to hugely divisive stuff like C50, I have less patience, having studied that project as closely as one possibly could (and perhaps being privy to some things not published out there), for a "well, it was everybody's fault" attitude.

I'm rambling, so I'll stop for the moment.  LOL

Great post.

Which means it'll probably be ignored.
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« Reply #403 on: January 30, 2018, 12:51:27 PM »

Again, if you've been a fan and have read these boards and fan groups since the 90s, especially since Brian started touring in 1999, there have ALWAYS been calls for Brian to quit. *EVERY* tour.

Apologies for pulling out this one sentence, because the whole of your post was 100% correct in detailing the reactions to every tour the man has done. That's fact, and I saw it play out too. Nearly 20 years of it, as I said in an earlier post.

But I pulled this quote out to ask specifically *why* you think this is the case, beyond possibly fans getting bored with it and reacting like this. I'm also curious if you've noticed especially in recent years fans of a certain mindset making these calls versus other groups of fans, and I'll leave that to be interpreted however someone chooses to take it.


I don't think KDS came on this thread to rip Brian a new one. I think, as a *somewhat* newer/new-ish fan (meaing not decades and decades), he maybe doesn't see how defending Mike on average more than a typical fan, and then also saying some things that might reflect negatively on Brian, will often be met with a questioning of motives.

If we can be frank, I think KDS is (and I mean this as an absolutely neutral label, TRULY, because I can't think of a better descriptor) a fan of the fence-walking variety. There's no lack of a willingness to criticize both sides, but sometimes I sense of sake of false equivalency for the sake of it. There is indeed a fine line between being truly even-handed and fence-walking for the sake of it. I'm for criticizing only when it's warranted, but that doesn't mean "say one nice thing about this, and then one nice thing about that." So yeah, when it comes to hugely divisive stuff like C50, I have less patience, having studied that project as closely as one possibly could (and perhaps being privy to some things not published out there), for a "well, it was everybody's fault" attitude.

I'm rambling, so I'll stop for the moment.  LOL

Thanks to Tommy for pointing out this post, it sort of got lost in the shuffle. 

And you're 100% right, I didn't post here to rip Brian a new one.   I'm a fan after all. 

But, I don't practice any kind of false equivalency, and I definitely don't have any motivations.   True, I haven't been a fan for decades on end, so maybe I'll never fully comprehend the questioning of motivations that comes if one dares praise Mike or say anything that can be considering negative about Brian. 
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« Reply #404 on: January 30, 2018, 01:55:11 PM »

It's still really problematic that one of the mods of this board is an aggressive partisan.  Mod or get off the pot, I say.

Back closer to the original topic.  It is a weird debate because they are two different models, and both are relatively successful at their different model.  Why is one a loser and one a winner?

Brian is able to charge more for his tickets because of reasons such as playing fewer dates, bringing a somewhat higher quality (artistically/venue-wise) product, and, the thing that nobody has mentioned yet, one important reason why Brian is able to charge more money is THE BIOPIC.  

Looking at Brian's tour revenue versus Mike isn't a case of needing to debate it or say one guy "beat" the other. But it's ignoring the band's history (and denying simple fan/scholar curiosity) to not see it as an interesting statistic.

The tours run off of different "operations" models, but they both are in the most general ways more similar than different, in the last couple years anyway. It's a band criss-crossing the globe performing concerts in order to make money, pulled from the same core catalog of music (with some areas where they diverge of course).

This is all even more interesting in light of C50. It's more interesting in light of Al being full-time on the tour now. Brian for the first time has, in the last several years, and likely in reaction to Mike quitting the band in 2012, presented something truly closer to his "version" of a "Beach Boys" show. No, they are not exactly the same. They have slightly different setlist prompts (Mike does anything released by the BBs, Brian sticks mainly to stuff he's has written or co-written), but they're similar operations generally speaking.

That there have been intimations in interviews as well as passing references in lawsuit filings to Brian and Al (together and separately) being some sort of competition to Mike's BB tour only makes these statistics more interesting.

By most objective measures, "on paper" Mike should be easily pulling in more money touring than Brian, even when they're performing the same number of shows. I think Brian's name just trumps the BB in some circles in a way Mike would probably not admit, and also probably more prominently this all points to Mike *over-extending* the brand, stretching it WAY too thin. But it probably doesn't matter anymore. The time to take longer breaks between tours and build up demand was five, ten, 20, 30 years ago. Mike skipping 2018 and coming back in 2019 probably wouldn't make a HUGE difference at this point, this late in the game.

Mike "loses" plenty but I don't see this as a loss.... mostly because I don't think Mike's overall goals are the traditional ideas that most people (likely including you, me, BriMel) would have of "make as much money as possible via playing as few shows as possible".  And, this can probably be either a positive or a negative.... but I would venture to guess that he prefers other metrics (that aren't necessarily productive) to trumpet his success, like overall attendance per year, keeping the show on the road in sheer quantity of dates, etc.  To put it more succinctly, there can't really be a loser because they're running 2 different races.
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« Reply #405 on: January 30, 2018, 08:24:50 PM »

New "Greatest Hits Live" show announced for Brian and Al:
April 21 -- Ivins, UT -- Tuacahn Amphitheatre
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« Reply #406 on: January 30, 2018, 09:26:38 PM »

Pretty sure Brian is going to announce a date in Windsor, Ontario soon.  I hope the show happens before I move 8 hours north of where I'm living right now.  I too have thoughts of Brian [and even his 'cousin'] hitting separate walls where they just can't 'do it' anymore...and maintaining a clear and true singing voice as you close in on 80 isn't a gimme for anybody let alone Brian Wilson who's put his vocal chords to a bit of a test along the smokey trail.  [that 'other' Brian Wilson isn't pitching in 'the Bigs' anymore...the body does have a say after all]

Brian will use assistance as he enters and leaves the stage because even at your peak those electrical cords and wires tend to be somewhat spaghetti-like and, on a darkened stage, can take a guy half his age down.  It's something I am always watchful for.  If Brian's eyesight is beginning to 'go'...and lord knows mine is...then the issue magnifies and with a bad back his balance is going to suffer at least a bit.  I gather though that Brian now enjoys the concept of 'doin' it live.  Once he gets out there and the music hits...he settles in and usually benefits from 'the ride'.

Ya maybe a Vegas stint would work.  Then again maybe it'd get old in a hurry.  The clock, as always, is ticking.  Whether Brian wants to spend even another "5 minutes" in the company of that preening peacock relative of his ... the one who, thanks to Scott T, manages to actually pay tribute to the songs...while misrepresenting their very core simultaneously...remains to be seen.  BUT...I doubt he will.  There's no coming back for Michael...not from THAT kind of sour.  I assumed that Foskett made the transition over to the B team because he was no longer deemed good enough to continue on with the BIG boys yet he IS still good enough to add to the Beached Boys version...after all...live auto-tone can extend one's shelf life... ... ...

Every time Brian heads out on tour I wonder if this will be the last one.  Sometimes he is SO GOOD I figure he's a shoe-in to accomplish every goal he wishes to list.  Sometimes I wonder if he'll make it to the current end date.  But he does make it.  He has a terrific support system with him...on stage and off.  Why he'd want to change that is beyond me...and him too I'd be willing to bet.  He does better these days with that which ails him than he used to by a ton.  But Brian isn't all better now.  He still faces real issues.  He does it better than most of us likely would be able to achieve.  That we've been able to bear witness to it, see him in varying degrees of action with generally excellent results is still a blessing...EVERY time.
-------------------------------------- 

I know this...when I go to see and hear Brian...I'm going to hear something he either had a real hand in...or something which moves his soul positively.  Can't ask for better than that.  [nor will you find it elsewhere.]  If you get another chance to catch Brian along the way...take it.  I can't read the expiry date but it's there.
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« Reply #407 on: January 31, 2018, 12:13:35 AM »

New "Greatest Hits Live" show announced for Brian and Al:
April 21 -- Ivins, UT -- Tuacahn Amphitheatre


Awesome
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« Reply #408 on: January 31, 2018, 12:16:48 AM »

Pretty sure Brian is going to announce a date in Windsor, Ontario soon.  I hope the show happens before I move 8 hours north of where I'm living right now.  I too have thoughts of Brian [and even his 'cousin'] hitting separate walls where they just can't 'do it' anymore...and maintaining a clear and true singing voice as you close in on 80 isn't a gimme for anybody let alone Brian Wilson who's put his vocal chords to a bit of a test along the smokey trail.  [that 'other' Brian Wilson isn't pitching in 'the Bigs' anymore...the body does have a say after all]

Brian will use assistance as he enters and leaves the stage because even at your peak those electrical cords and wires tend to be somewhat spaghetti-like and, on a darkened stage, can take a guy half his age down.  It's something I am always watchful for.  If Brian's eyesight is beginning to 'go'...and lord knows mine is...then the issue magnifies and with a bad back his balance is going to suffer at least a bit.  I gather though that Brian now enjoys the concept of 'doin' it live.  Once he gets out there and the music hits...he settles in and usually benefits from 'the ride'.

Ya maybe a Vegas stint would work.  Then again maybe it'd get old in a hurry.  The clock, as always, is ticking.  Whether Brian wants to spend even another "5 minutes" in the company of that preening peacock relative of his ... the one who, thanks to Scott T, manages to actually pay tribute to the songs...while misrepresenting their very core simultaneously...remains to be seen.  BUT...I doubt he will.  There's no coming back for Michael...not from THAT kind of sour.  I assumed that Foskett made the transition over to the B team because he was no longer deemed good enough to continue on with the BIG boys yet he IS still good enough to add to the Beached Boys version...after all...live auto-tone can extend one's shelf life... ... ...

Every time Brian heads out on tour I wonder if this will be the last one.  Sometimes he is SO GOOD I figure he's a shoe-in to accomplish every goal he wishes to list.  Sometimes I wonder if he'll make it to the current end date.  But he does make it.  He has a terrific support system with him...on stage and off.  Why he'd want to change that is beyond me...and him too I'd be willing to bet.  He does better these days with that which ails him than he used to by a ton.  But Brian isn't all better now.  He still faces real issues.  He does it better than most of us likely would be able to achieve.  That we've been able to bear witness to it, see him in varying degrees of action with generally excellent results is still a blessing...EVERY time.
--------------------------------------

I know this...when I go to see and hear Brian...I'm going to hear something he either had a real hand in...or something which moves his soul positively.  Can't ask for better than that.  [nor will you find it elsewhere.]  If you get another chance to catch Brian along the way...take it.  I can't read the expiry date but it's there.

That was beautiful...well said.

Re:Vegas... nice idea in theory but I think heíd get bored very quickly
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« Reply #409 on: January 31, 2018, 12:45:28 AM »

Since you won't let it die, and feel the need to keep pushing, which is amazing as I know you're busying acting as an impartial moderator......

Three or four pages ago, HJ mentioned the possibility of a reunited Beach Boys lineup doing a Vegas residency. 

I simply said it would be a good idea for Brian Wilson to take some of the strain off touring because he had back issues. 

And, you decided to take offense to that statement, and in the process waste 3-4 pages of Brian's 2018 Tour Thread. 

I'm still not sure how suggesting a Vegas residency might be beneficial to Brian is somehow a bad statement or has some sort of "endgame" as you put it.

THAT'S ALL!!!


Right. It's all about the music, too.




He looks lethargic and uninvolved onstage. As he walks offstage, usually a roadie or two will walk out and take his arm as he walks. His voice has degraded noticeably over the past 3 years. He's well into his 70s and very overweight. Mike and Bruce are, in comparison, very spry and in good shape. The concerns about Brian's health are not unfounded.

You beat me to it. 

Uncle Walter was responding to your taking an issue with my post.   Other than the fact that I've acknowledged that "very overweight" is an exaggeration, what does that statement say that's not factual?   And how is pointing it out a bad thing, GF? 

Or do you want to continue to hijack this thread for four more pages? 

You can try to paint my questions as hijacking or whatever else you want to do to deflect from answering them. Including answering a direct question by trying to flip it back on me.

I'll ask again, direct question: Why is there a need to bring up Brian's health issues whenever his touring is being discussed? And that extends to those who do it regularly.


Bri is getting to a fair age and has also had health issues in the past so I can see why some people would bring up his health when a tour(especially the large ones he has done the last two years) is announced
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« Reply #410 on: January 31, 2018, 06:11:39 AM »

New "Greatest Hits Live" show announced for Brian and Al:
April 21 -- Ivins, UT -- Tuacahn Amphitheatre


Thanks for the addition. Adding it to the top post...
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« Reply #411 on: January 31, 2018, 06:23:45 AM »

To be clear, for whatever itís worth, when I brought up the topic of a ďVegas residencyĒ, I wasnít speaking in regards to anybodyís health or stamina, nor was I really even talking about the respective post-C50 individual touring configurations. I was speaking very specifically about an easy way to continue the *reunion* lineup going into the future.

Doing a truly substantive long-term Vegas residency is something that C50 (or call the reunion whatever you want after the actual 50th year) would have had sufficient demand for. Whether it would be on the exact same level as recent runs by Celine Dion and Britney Spears and whatnot, I canít say, but it would have and could have been something more in that ballpark (as opposed to past years where Al or Mike or the original BBs have done a week of shows at Caesarís, etc.). Why it would have worked for the full reunion lineup is that there would have been sufficient demand for it, and it would have eliminated many of the logistical/political/interpersonal issues at play during the reunion. It would have minimized the role of management and all of that, as the whole thing would be strictly laid out and would then work like clockwork; it would run itself. They just show up and do 80-90 minutes. It would have also allowed for plenty of gaps/breaks for Mike to go do corporate/private shows, would minimize travel (both in terms of wear and tear on the guys, and travel *costs* and all of the associated costs). It would have been very easily and quickly a license to print money and keep some prestige. Doing Vegas isnít the cheesy thing it was decades and decades ago. Yes, it would have meant all of us would have to *go* to Vegas to see it, and it would have meant no more 43 to 61-song setlists. But it could have kept the reunion going, and then would have allowed for other ancillary things like recording another album (they could then truly record an album *while* touring; just book a Vegas studio), and also could have allowed for off-Vegas tour legs during or after.

Iím not living in the clouds; I realize why this would have not been easy to accomplish in terms of getting them all to sign up for it. But with good management back in 2012, it could have worked and could have been a bridge to temper things to allow the reunion lineup to be *the* band going forward.
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« Reply #412 on: January 31, 2018, 06:33:30 AM »

It's still really problematic that one of the mods of this board is an aggressive partisan.  Mod or get off the pot, I say.

Back closer to the original topic.  It is a weird debate because they are two different models, and both are relatively successful at their different model.  Why is one a loser and one a winner?

Brian is able to charge more for his tickets because of reasons such as playing fewer dates, bringing a somewhat higher quality (artistically/venue-wise) product, and, the thing that nobody has mentioned yet, one important reason why Brian is able to charge more money is THE BIOPIC.  

Looking at Brian's tour revenue versus Mike isn't a case of needing to debate it or say one guy "beat" the other. But it's ignoring the band's history (and denying simple fan/scholar curiosity) to not see it as an interesting statistic.

The tours run off of different "operations" models, but they both are in the most general ways more similar than different, in the last couple years anyway. It's a band criss-crossing the globe performing concerts in order to make money, pulled from the same core catalog of music (with some areas where they diverge of course).

This is all even more interesting in light of C50. It's more interesting in light of Al being full-time on the tour now. Brian for the first time has, in the last several years, and likely in reaction to Mike quitting the band in 2012, presented something truly closer to his "version" of a "Beach Boys" show. No, they are not exactly the same. They have slightly different setlist prompts (Mike does anything released by the BBs, Brian sticks mainly to stuff he's has written or co-written), but they're similar operations generally speaking.

That there have been intimations in interviews as well as passing references in lawsuit filings to Brian and Al (together and separately) being some sort of competition to Mike's BB tour only makes these statistics more interesting.

By most objective measures, "on paper" Mike should be easily pulling in more money touring than Brian, even when they're performing the same number of shows. I think Brian's name just trumps the BB in some circles in a way Mike would probably not admit, and also probably more prominently this all points to Mike *over-extending* the brand, stretching it WAY too thin. But it probably doesn't matter anymore. The time to take longer breaks between tours and build up demand was five, ten, 20, 30 years ago. Mike skipping 2018 and coming back in 2019 probably wouldn't make a HUGE difference at this point, this late in the game.

Mike "loses" plenty but I don't see this as a loss.... mostly because I don't think Mike's overall goals are the traditional ideas that most people (likely including you, me, BriMel) would have of "make as much money as possible via playing as few shows as possible".  And, this can probably be either a positive or a negative.... but I would venture to guess that he prefers other metrics (that aren't necessarily productive) to trumpet his success, like overall attendance per year, keeping the show on the road in sheer quantity of dates, etc.  To put it more succinctly, there can't really be a loser because they're running 2 different races.

Mike indeed isn't coming at it from precisely the same angle as Brian might, or other artists. But Mike is also a business guy, a numbers guy. His company runs his tour, and he famously runs a lean, cheap operation by doing things like renting gear in each city, etc.

I think Mike *would* charge more for tickets, in the Brian price range, if he *could.* While I do think he likes certain things about a larger volume of shows in smaller markets/venues (the adulation, maybe the groupies, whatever), I think the reason he plays the size and type of venues/markets that he does is because that's what his market value gets him. By touring so incessantly every year, all year, he has gone from stadiums (70s) to arenas (80s) to sheds (90s) to mostly theaters, casinos, fairs, festivals, free shows, etc. (present day). These are of course generalizations; the BBs played casinos back in the 80s, did fairs as well (although it was usually larger fairs as opposed to things like "Rib Cook-Offs", etc.). But Mike is playing smaller venues in 2017/18 than he did in the 90s. Mike stripping it down to only *two* actual BBs in the band has also contributed to the devaluation of the trademark and brand as well.

Yes, it's clear Mike *love* to tell people he does 175 shows per year. You can see all the way back in his epic 1988 Rock Hall speech that he places an odd emphasis on how many gigs a band does.

But as much as Mike said even *during* 2012, even during the period of time where things seemed pretty amicable, that he didn't like only doing mostly larger venues and larger markets, I think most of that had more to do with having to be with Brian and to deal with Melinda.

In other words, if a promoter came to Mike right now and offered him double his typically yearly take to exclusively only do 30 stadium shows, would he take the offer? We're talking for the Mike/Bruce show. I'd say, while he would have misgivings, I think he *would* take that offer. He'd take the offer, and then spend the rest of his time doing "California Beach Band" dates.
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« Reply #413 on: January 31, 2018, 10:39:42 AM »

Going by many comments he has made on the issue, Mike seems to place a lot of emphasis on the workingman's, roll-up-your-sleeves hard work ethic regarding the number of shows he plays each year. Agree or not with that ethic, it seems to be a point of pride and something to boast about that Mike considers himself doing the heavy lifting in the form of playing all of these shows, or as some of us call it, touring incessantly. He also mentions how much money he brings in to BRI by doing so, again hinting at that blue-collar heavy lifting ethos to provide for BRI or something. It's a little ironic considering this was the same Mike who in 2012 cited not wanting to risk overexposure by continuing more C50 shows, yet he regularly mentions how many shows he continues to play, a number which a lot would consider above the norm if not too much to where it does risk overexposure going year in and year out to the same markets.

Someone earlier mentioned "competition" between bands.

Consider back in 2005 some of the language in the lawsuit Mike filed specifically mentions Brian's band and their touring as a competitor or as his competition, to the point of that activity harming Mike's brand license.

So the competition aspect isn't something the fans dreamed up, it was how Mike himself characterized the situation in a legal document in 2005 that is on the record. I doubt he's changed his feelings on that as of 2018.

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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #414 on: January 31, 2018, 11:41:56 AM »

"Competition" is also why Al Jardine was run off the touring circuit in 1999.

How much Mike has ever seen Al's or Brian's bands (or Al and Brian together) as a true financial threat, and/or a true critical/artistic threat, is obviously open for debate. Obviously, various legal documents and maneuvers have cited potential financial threat, and the 1999-ish BRI filings concerning Al cited "image" issues concerning setlist selection.

Certainly a lot of that 1999 BRI/Al lawsuit stuff was more just trying to find stuff to use against Al as opposed to Al being an actual existential threat to Mike's licensed band (as if Al and Owen Elliott and Daryl Dragon were ruining the "Beach Boys" name by playing "Lookin' at Tomorrow", or confusing people because they thought *that* was the Beach Boys, or that they were playing enough gigs to even make a dent in Mike's operation).

But as I mentioned, 2017 *may* be the first year with some level of evidence/statistics that Brian's uptick in touring revenue coincided with a downtick for Mike. Has Brian really been taking business away from Mike either directly or indirectly? I don't know, but if Mike Love was ever inclined to believe that was possible, then those 2017 status would then potentially be alarming/upsetting to some degree.
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« Reply #415 on: January 31, 2018, 11:56:35 AM »

"Competition" is also why Al Jardine was run off the touring circuit in 1999.

How much Mike has ever seen Al's or Brian's bands (or Al and Brian together) as a true financial threat, and/or a true critical/artistic threat, is obviously open for debate. Obviously, various legal documents and maneuvers have cited potential financial threat, and the 1999-ish BRI filings concerning Al cited "image" issues concerning setlist selection.

Certainly a lot of that 1999 BRI/Al lawsuit stuff was more just trying to find stuff to use against Al as opposed to Al being an actual existential threat to Mike's licensed band (as if Al and Owen Elliott and Daryl Dragon were ruining the "Beach Boys" name by playing "Lookin' at Tomorrow", or confusing people because they thought *that* was the Beach Boys, or that they were playing enough gigs to even make a dent in Mike's operation).

But as I mentioned, 2017 *may* be the first year with some level of evidence/statistics that Brian's uptick in touring revenue coincided with a downtick for Mike. Has Brian really been taking business away from Mike either directly or indirectly? I don't know, but if Mike Love was ever inclined to believe that was possible, then those 2017 status would then potentially be alarming/upsetting to some degree.

The lawsuit Mike filed back in 2005 - when the Smile tour was the tour of note coming after the Pet Sounds Live tour, both of which did very well - pretty clearly names Brian's touring and promotions around that touring as competition and as a threat to Mike's "brand" and success thereof, so I don't see anything open for debate.

Mike's lawsuit clearly spelled it out. It was a threat, and it was put into a court document listing it as a threat to the finances of Mike's "Beach Boys" tours, enough to hinge a lawsuit on that notion. Again I don't see what there is to debate on that point, just read the language of that suit. And again, I doubt the opinion has changed much since that filing in 2005.
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #416 on: January 31, 2018, 12:15:10 PM »

"Competition" is also why Al Jardine was run off the touring circuit in 1999.

How much Mike has ever seen Al's or Brian's bands (or Al and Brian together) as a true financial threat, and/or a true critical/artistic threat, is obviously open for debate. Obviously, various legal documents and maneuvers have cited potential financial threat, and the 1999-ish BRI filings concerning Al cited "image" issues concerning setlist selection.

Certainly a lot of that 1999 BRI/Al lawsuit stuff was more just trying to find stuff to use against Al as opposed to Al being an actual existential threat to Mike's licensed band (as if Al and Owen Elliott and Daryl Dragon were ruining the "Beach Boys" name by playing "Lookin' at Tomorrow", or confusing people because they thought *that* was the Beach Boys, or that they were playing enough gigs to even make a dent in Mike's operation).

But as I mentioned, 2017 *may* be the first year with some level of evidence/statistics that Brian's uptick in touring revenue coincided with a downtick for Mike. Has Brian really been taking business away from Mike either directly or indirectly? I don't know, but if Mike Love was ever inclined to believe that was possible, then those 2017 status would then potentially be alarming/upsetting to some degree.

The lawsuit Mike filed back in 2005 - when the Smile tour was the tour of note coming after the Pet Sounds Live tour, both of which did very well - pretty clearly names Brian's touring and promotions around that touring as competition and as a threat to Mike's "brand" and success thereof, so I don't see anything open for debate.

Mike's lawsuit clearly spelled it out. It was a threat, and it was put into a court document listing it as a threat to the finances of Mike's "Beach Boys" tours, enough to hinge a lawsuit on that notion. Again I don't see what there is to debate on that point, just read the language of that suit. And again, I doubt the opinion has changed much since that filing in 2005.

Of course yes, that's it's in the documents and stated as a threat is not open for debate, obviously. The only question is whether Mike actually feels Brian (or Al, or related issues) is truly a financial threat, or instead if various lawsuits were just an ego/vindictive thing and the financial-related threat being the stated reasoning for a lawsuit was just a means to an end.

For instance, I don't believe for a second that *anybody* actually believed, in relation to that 2005 lawsuit, that the freebie giveaway CD from England was *actually* confusing anyone in any substantial way. Instead, and this is only *my opinion*, I think Mike was in a score-settling, "set the lawyers loose" mood, and then the legal team had to find *potentially actionable* things. This obviously went overboard to the extreme in that lawsuit to the point that the courts had to admonish legal counsel for more or less fabricated "evidence" that someone was confused by the CD by using a friend to buy the CD off eBay and then claim he was "confused."

Kind of like how, again in my opinion, "playing vital smaller markets" had precisely *zero* to do with why Mike ended the reunion, yet that was offered as one of the reasons.
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« Reply #417 on: January 31, 2018, 12:42:45 PM »

Lee, just announced:

https://yqgrocks.com/beach-boys-legend-brian-wilson-coming-to-windsor/

BEACH BOYS LEGEND BRIAN WILSON COMING TO WINDSOR
By YQGrocks
January 31, 2018

One of popular musicís most deeply revered figures, the legendary singer-songwriter Brian Wilson of Beach Boys fame, performs at The Colosseum on Friday, May 4 as part of his 2018 Pet Sounds Ė The Final Performances tour with guests Al Jardine and Blondie Chaplin in tow.
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« Reply #418 on: February 02, 2018, 07:26:03 AM »

Speaking of a Vegas residency, there was this printed in 2016:

http://lasvegassun.com/vegasdeluxe/2016/mar/23/the-righteous-brothers-reborn-bill-medley-emotiona/

From a March interview Robin Leach did with Bill Medley:

RL: Youngsters have revitalized the entertainment scene in Las Vegas. First Britney Spears, then Mariah Carey, and now Jennifer Lopez and Pitbull. Theyíve turned it back into the entertainment mecca.

BM: Iím thrilled about it. I was talking with Mike Love of The Beach Boys, and theyíre considering doing a residency. I know Lionel Richie is starting his soon at Planet Hollywood. Itís exciting. The Cirque du Soleil shows are unbelievable, but I think people go to Las Vegas and also want to get something thatís entertainment ó singers.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23641.0.html

I forgot how hilarious some of the reactions were.  Grin
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"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #419 on: February 02, 2018, 07:37:24 AM »

I remember Mike all of a sudden pondering a Las Vegas residency (and I'm assuming he meant more than a week or two, which the BBs have done many times over the years going back to 1980 at least) seemed to fly pretty directly in the face of his 2012 LA Times letter stressing how he simply *must* continue to tour all of those "vital, smaller markets."

I also think, obviously, that his show would not garner the type of residency offers than the reunion lineup would have.

I also think it's at least *slightly possible* that BRI would reassess its licensing arrangement for the name if Mike went to a predominantly if not fully "Vegas Residency" mode for touring.
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« Reply #420 on: February 02, 2018, 07:40:29 AM »

"Competition" is also why Al Jardine was run off the touring circuit in 1999.

How much Mike has ever seen Al's or Brian's bands (or Al and Brian together) as a true financial threat, and/or a true critical/artistic threat, is obviously open for debate. Obviously, various legal documents and maneuvers have cited potential financial threat, and the 1999-ish BRI filings concerning Al cited "image" issues concerning setlist selection.

Certainly a lot of that 1999 BRI/Al lawsuit stuff was more just trying to find stuff to use against Al as opposed to Al being an actual existential threat to Mike's licensed band (as if Al and Owen Elliott and Daryl Dragon were ruining the "Beach Boys" name by playing "Lookin' at Tomorrow", or confusing people because they thought *that* was the Beach Boys, or that they were playing enough gigs to even make a dent in Mike's operation).

But as I mentioned, 2017 *may* be the first year with some level of evidence/statistics that Brian's uptick in touring revenue coincided with a downtick for Mike. Has Brian really been taking business away from Mike either directly or indirectly? I don't know, but if Mike Love was ever inclined to believe that was possible, then those 2017 status would then potentially be alarming/upsetting to some degree.

The lawsuit Mike filed back in 2005 - when the Smile tour was the tour of note coming after the Pet Sounds Live tour, both of which did very well - pretty clearly names Brian's touring and promotions around that touring as competition and as a threat to Mike's "brand" and success thereof, so I don't see anything open for debate.

Mike's lawsuit clearly spelled it out. It was a threat, and it was put into a court document listing it as a threat to the finances of Mike's "Beach Boys" tours, enough to hinge a lawsuit on that notion. Again I don't see what there is to debate on that point, just read the language of that suit. And again, I doubt the opinion has changed much since that filing in 2005.

Of course yes, that's it's in the documents and stated as a threat is not open for debate, obviously. The only question is whether Mike actually feels Brian (or Al, or related issues) is truly a financial threat, or instead if various lawsuits were just an ego/vindictive thing and the financial-related threat being the stated reasoning for a lawsuit was just a means to an end.

For instance, I don't believe for a second that *anybody* actually believed, in relation to that 2005 lawsuit, that the freebie giveaway CD from England was *actually* confusing anyone in any substantial way. Instead, and this is only *my opinion*, I think Mike was in a score-settling, "set the lawyers loose" mood, and then the legal team had to find *potentially actionable* things. This obviously went overboard to the extreme in that lawsuit to the point that the courts had to admonish legal counsel for more or less fabricated "evidence" that someone was confused by the CD by using a friend to buy the CD off eBay and then claim he was "confused."

Kind of like how, again in my opinion, "playing vital smaller markets" had precisely *zero* to do with why Mike ended the reunion, yet that was offered as one of the reasons.

I think - especially in the years from 1999 up to the lawsuit - that Brian's touring and band were considered as a threat financially by Mike.

This is purely subjective, and maybe some who attended both Brian's and Mike's shows from this specific era prior to the 2005 lawsuit can back this up too, but Brian's band and live shows as early as that first tour I was fortunate enough to see in 1999 was simply blowing Mike's stage act and tour out of the water. It was not only a bigger event for fans, but the music sounded better when you saw Brian and that amazing band perform quite a few of the same songs Mike was plowing through on stage.

The original PS Live tour was also an event Mike couldn't match.

The Smile live tour upped the bar almost impossibly high. When you have some of the most legendary musicians praising the tour and the band as they did the Smile shows, that would naturally put that bar up as high as it could go.

So Mike sues Brian in 2005 and suggests Brian's tours and promotions are direct competition, uses a bogus UK giveaway CD as "Exhibit A", and in the lawsuit proceeds to disparage not only Brian and the tours/shows themselves, but also Al Jardine. Coincidence?

Like I said, I doubt those opinions on "competition" have changed much if at all in 13 years.

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"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #421 on: February 02, 2018, 07:45:49 AM »

I remember Mike all of a sudden pondering a Las Vegas residency (and I'm assuming he meant more than a week or two, which the BBs have done many times over the years going back to 1980 at least) seemed to fly pretty directly in the face of his 2012 LA Times letter stressing how he simply *must* continue to tour all of those "vital, smaller markets."

I also think, obviously, that his show would not garner the type of residency offers than the reunion lineup would have.

I also think it's at least *slightly possible* that BRI would reassess its licensing arrangement for the name if Mike went to a predominantly if not fully "Vegas Residency" mode for touring.

Or it could have been run through the "what if?" wringer and determined it might not be as much of a consistent draw for a Vegas audience to regularly fill the room to see Mike. There would be the notion that some comments in that original thread suggested, that after the initial interest in the show, Mike may have been relegated to the side lounge rooms or the pool cabana area if the audiences began to dwindle.


And I think you're right about such a residency affecting the licensing, since the license was to tour, not to set up camp in Vegas.

I also wonder what ever happened with all the Vegas style tie-ins they had which included Beach Boys slot machines and things like that?
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #422 on: February 02, 2018, 08:58:00 AM »

I looked for a Mike and Bruce 2018 tour thread to post this in, but it seems there isn't one. So...here it is:

"The Beach Boys Are Headlining Chandler's Ostrich Festival"

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/beach-boys-chandler-ostrich-festival-10077019
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #423 on: February 02, 2018, 09:06:05 AM »

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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #424 on: February 02, 2018, 09:09:15 AM »

 LOL

Suddenly that bowling alley car park is high-brow!
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